The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[Steve Clark]

ATL, I think that is good advice. I have gotten nothing but good feeling from reading the discussions on C&E and the Church of the FirstBorn. Not sure that I agree 100%, but I do feel the discussion is in a good direction and helpful. I certainly don't see how you could be led into forbidden paths by seeking your C&E or at the very least working on a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father.

There are questions, though. Decades ago, I had an experience where I was repenting, and one night I had the most clear and distinct dream of meeting and embracing the Savior, and Him saying "Thy sins are forgiven." I was on my knees, embracing Him, and the sense of both joy and pure love there are not words to do it justice. The memory of that has remained with me throughout my life. I told my bishop about it, and he teared up, told me that I was an amazing person, and gave me a bear hug.

So the thing is, that was a pretty powerful experience, which I have never shared with anyone other than that bishop. Yet it never occurred to me that I had my Calling and Election Made Sure, in fact, I am pretty confident in saying that was not what happened. And I thought the point of the "more sure word of prophecy" was that it would leave no question in the mind of the recipient that he was assured of exaltation.

So, although I am not afraid to try this experiment, and like I said I get positive feelings about the discussion in general and think it will lead to good things - I guess I expected something a little more literal and - I hate to say it, but "profound". But maybe I am just one of those people that are making it harder than it is.

Thank you for sharing. I had the same experience when I was 18. It was so vivid it still causes a flood of emotion to this day when I think about it. I can feel the love of the Savior and it burns within me. I also do not believe this was my C&E.

[Mark]

Amonhi, if you were ordained to bring as many as will come to the church of the firstborn, does this make you one of the 144,000?

Yes, for he time being. It isn't as glamours as it sounds.

Have you and/or your wife then been translated?

If they were part of the 144,000 they would have to be translated beings. Once again I am uncomfortable with someone coming on an internet forum saying they are part of this glorious missionary force of hunters (Jeremiah 16:16) which is to happen at the time of the redemption of Zion prior to the second coming of the Lord. Lets just say I have a healthy dose of skepticism here. I will leave it at that.

[katmr]

My understanding is that a second annointing is the ordinance for having your calling and election made sure and it is an ordinance performed in the temple, given only to married couples.

[Rand]

Why do I not feel a good spirit when I read about this?

Fear. Doubt.

What he has said is constant with with scripture and what prophets have said about C&E.


So try it out. What is the downside?

Actually, I have been down this road a ways. No fear, no doubt, but my experience has been very different than what is recorded here. It feels unhealthy to me. I agree with Mark. I will continue on my path and not open myself up to influences that will deter me from my journey. God has spoken to me in ways unmistakeable, and they do not square with what I am seeing. I would say what has been shared is similar to scripture, not "constant", and certainly not "consistent".

[Steve Clark]

My understanding is that a second annointing is the ordinance for having your calling and election made sure and it is an ordinance performed in the temple, given only to married couples.

I outline my understanding here:
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... ng#p239007

[Steve Clark]

If they were part of the 144,000 they would have to be translated beings. Once again I am uncomfortable with someone coming on an internet forum saying they are part of this glorious missionary force of hunters (Jeremiah 16:16) which is to happen at the time of the redemption of Zion prior to the second coming of the Lord. Lets just say I have a healthy dose of skepticism here. I will leave it at that.

Please discuss this idea of the 144k being translated beings HERE.

[chase]

Amonhi. While I'm not 100% on board with everything you have said, I have felt the spirit in much of what you said. A lot of it rings true. I would like to know your perspective on how sacrifice is part of the process.

[reese]

ATL, I think that is good advice. I have gotten nothing but good feeling from reading the discussions on C&E and the Church of the FirstBorn. Not sure that I agree 100%, but I do feel the discussion is in a good direction and helpful. I certainly don't see how you could be led into forbidden paths by seeking your C&E or at the very least working on a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father.

There are questions, though. Decades ago, I had an experience where I was repenting, and one night I had the most clear and distinct dream of meeting and embracing the Savior, and Him saying "Thy sins are forgiven." I was on my knees, embracing Him, and the sense of both joy and pure love there are not words to do it justice. The memory of that has remained with me throughout my life. I told my bishop about it, and he teared up, told me that I was an amazing person, and gave me a bear hug.

So the thing is, that was a pretty powerful experience, which I have never shared with anyone other than that bishop. Yet it never occurred to me that I had my Calling and Election Made Sure, in fact, I am pretty confident in saying that was not what happened. And I thought the point of the "more sure word of prophecy" was that it would leave no question in the mind of the recipient that he was assured of exaltation.

So, although I am not afraid to try this experiment, and like I said I get positive feelings about the discussion in general and think it will lead to good things - I guess I expected something a little more literal and - I hate to say it, but "profound". But maybe I am just one of those people that are making it harder than it is.

Yes ATL good advice. And yes it is rather scary to think about asking those kind of questions. I too have felt a very good spirit about both threads. Like OI I can't see how it would be a "promting" from satan to ask or seek your calling and election. Seems like he would be working in the opposite direction, instilling fear....

OI I have been feeling the last few months, that I too am making it harder than it is. And in doing so I am missing some important things because I am expecting a much more profound/obvious "event". But the scripture in Alma comes to mind....

46 O my son, do not let us be slothful because of the easiness of the way; for so was it with our fathers; for so was it prepared for them, that if they would look they might live; even so it is with us. The way is prepared, and if we will look we may live forever.

Is it possible that we are denying these things from ourselves because we just won't believe it because of the easiness of the way? Did the Lord really let the children of Israel die because they would not just look up at a staff and serpent? That to me is almost unbelievable. Just look at something and be healed. And yet some refused to do it. It was just too simple.

Mark I see what you are saying about translation. I know that you are reading Pontius' book The triumph of Zion, where he discusses translation at length. But it seems to me that the Lord is not going to give translation until it is needed. At this point there may not be a need...I don't know, just thinking aloud here.

[LukeAir2008]

From what I have read here this is just asking for assurance from the Holy Ghost that you are on the right tracks.

This is very different from a person having their 'calling and election made sure'. The Second Comforter is to have the veil removed and to see the face of Christ - and to then be told by the Lord himself that you will have eternal life,

A person cannot decide when this will happen. A person must dedicate their life totally to Christ and serve him at whatever cost - even if they lose everything including their very life itself. When they have proven that they will do anything for the Lord then they will have their calling and election made sure.

This is unlikely to come at an early stage in life but after a lifetime of faithful service and commitment to Christ.

[A Random Phrase]

Why do I not feel a good spirit when I read about this?

Fear. Doubt.

What he has said is constant with with scripture and what prophets have said about C&E.

So try it out. What is the downside?

Actually, I have been down this road a ways. No fear, no doubt, but my experience has been very different than what is recorded here. It feels unhealthy to me. I agree with Mark. I will continue on my path and not open myself up to influences that will deter me from my journey. God has spoken to me in ways unmistakeable, and they do not square with what I am seeing. I would say what has been shared is similar to scripture, not "constant", and certainly not "consistent".

Ditto. Something "feels" wrong about this. The one giving the info may have the best of intentions, may believe 100% in everything he is saying, but something is "sideways".

For example, in this thread or the other one, it was mentioned that it was not important to be baptized by one authorized (ie, a mortal member of Jesus' church) even though Jesus did so. When that fact was brought up, there was a little fancy footwork to get around it.

No offense to anyone, but what I'm seeing are some teachings that are contrary to scripture. Anyone who teaches contrary to scripture (even if it is mingled with scripture) is either knowingly or unknowingly teaching in concert with the trickster. And I've had some experiences with him, as well.

I was going to keep out of this discussion, but it seemed important that I give my opinion. I'll bow out now.

[LukeAir2008]

We need to get the correct balance here.

Yes everyone should be having divine communications and experiences - absolutely - and that seems to be frowned upon and shunned by many in the modern Church.

At the same time, if the information communicated by the 'spirit' or by any 'messenger' is contrary to revealed established doctrine, eg: the absolute requirement of baptism by immersion by one having authority etc. then you will know that the recipient of those communications has been deceived/is the deceiver...

[Gideon]

Why do I not feel a good spirit when I read about this?

I don't feel good about this either. For me, the problem is that so many people make mistakes in praying, to use that method to find out if your calling and election has been made sure opens you up to all kinds of unholy influences if you really aren't ready for it.

If someone has been thoroughly proven by the Lord, that person will be in tune enough that when the Lord speaks, they will recognize his voice.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(John 10:27–28‎)‎

The whole idea of an "easy" way to make your calling and election sure sounds diabolical. Think about the implications, we are talking about a guarantee of exaltation, that is Godhood. That promise only goes to the valiant. It is not just for the asking.

[ATL Wake]

Why do I not feel a good spirit when I read about this?

... so many people make mistakes in praying, to use that method to find out if your calling and election has been made sure opens you up to all kinds of unholy influences if you really aren't ready for it.

If someone has been thoroughly proven by the Lord, that person will be in tune enough that when the Lord speaks, they will recognize his voice.

The whole idea of an "easy" way to make your calling and election sure sounds diabolical. Think about the implications, we are talking about a guarantee of exaltation, that is Godhood. That promise only goes to the valiant. It is not just for the asking.

How do you say, "So many mistakes in praying" AND "my sheep hear my voice..." in the same comment?

If one hears His voice, do you really think they are making a mistake in praying?

Since you must have the ordinances, why don't you use them? The temple shows us that there are two trips to the veil. So after obeying the voice of the Lord, developing a broken heart and contrite spirit, becoming virtuous, and consecrating your life to the Lord you are ready to approach the veil. Ask. Knock. You will be told what you need. Do it. Return to the veil and your request will be granted.

But if when you say, "mistakes in praying" you mean, you can't really understand the Spirit. Fasting and prayer will help you with that.

Why do you think Amonhi means kneel down at night, ask, and then you will receive true revelation with no effort of drawing near the Spirit. Enos is an account of how one received his calling and election. He prayed all day to get his blessing.

When i read Amonhi's instructions, I understood, fast and pray for a goal for when to approach the Lord. That requires closeness to the Spirit in an of itself. If your life is out of order, you will not be able to set a time near by. But you should know when. Then as the time approaches, fast, pray, live the gospel. Do what the Spirit tells you to do. Then approach the Lord and ask. The process is simple. I don't think it's easy. I don't interpret Amonhi's instruction as a "fast track" to heaven. More of a "Just Do it Already" track.

Deep down, you know more about yourself than you think. If you don't believe yourself worthy to receive the promise you know why. Change that. Once there's nothing left to change, ask God.


I am no authority on this subject. This is just what the Spirit is teaching to me. If any of us lack wisdom about how to approach this, there is one person to ask. We need to not over think this.

[Original_Intent]

Let me get this straight, we should not seek our calling and election thru prayer because we might be deceived...I guess Joseph Smith Jr. should have ignored James, after all he might be deceived by an angel of light and set up a false church...

If we have the ability to gain the knowledge that Joseph Smith did indeed have the experience that he claimed, and that it was indeed the restoration of the true church, haven;t we already proven to have the God given tools to proceed?

I get a much worse feeling from the posts counseling ""Don't ask. Don't seek. Don't knock. You are liable to be deceived if you do!" than anything posted about seeking our calling and election.

Certainly it is possible that not everyone that attempts it will succeed, but how many that do not attempt it will succeed?

I say if any among you seek wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to ALL men liberally, and upbraideth not... is anyone going to call that bad advice?

[Gideon]

Why do I not feel a good spirit when I read about this?

... so many people make mistakes in praying, to use that method to find out if your calling and election has been made sure opens you up to all kinds of unholy influences if you really aren't ready for it.

If someone has been thoroughly proven by the Lord, that person will be in tune enough that when the Lord speaks, they will recognize his voice.

The whole idea of an "easy" way to make your calling and election sure sounds diabolical. Think about the implications, we are talking about a guarantee of exaltation, that is Godhood. That promise only goes to the valiant. It is not just for the asking.

How do you say, "So many mistakes in praying" AND "my sheep hear my voice..." in the same comment?

If one hears His voice, do you really think they are making a mistake in praying?

The statements are for two groups of people. Many in the church struggle with identifying the voice of the Spirit, especially youth. However, someone who is much more spiritually mature, someone whom the Lord has put to the test, will be acquainted with the voice of the Lord. They will hear it. If they have had their calling and election made sure, there will be no doubts at all, the Lord will speak to them and they will know His voice.

Deep down, you know more about yourself than you think. If you don't believe yourself worthy to receive the promise you know why. Change that. Once there's nothing left to change, ask God.

Only God knows what each of us still needs. None of us know ourselves as He knows us, which is probably why He proves us, instead of us proving ourselves to Him. He knows what trials we need to go through.

I am no authority on this subject. This is just what the Spirit is teaching to me. If any of us lack wisdom about how to approach this, there is one person to ask. We need to not over think this.

Good counsel for all.

[tmac]

Original Intent wrote:
Decades ago, I had an experience where I was repenting, and one night I had the most clear and distinct dream of meeting and embracing the Savior, and Him saying "Thy sins are forgiven." I was on my knees, embracing Him, and the sense of both joy and pure love there are not words to do it justice. The memory of that has remained with me throughout my life.

I don't pretend to be any kind of expert about any of this either, and certainly don't claim to have experienced it, but I have been studying these subjects a lot lately, and seeking to understand. The experience you have described OI seems to be very consistent with the accounts (both in the BOM and elsewhere) I have read about baptism by fire and the holy ghost. Receiving a clear and unmistakable manifestation that one's sins -- up to that point -- are forgiven, seems to typically be a very big and important part of that experience. But my studies also lead me to conclude that BFHG is not the same as C&E, but is rather just one very important step in the journey or process, and that C&E is a subsequent, more culminating step in the sequence. And I suppose it is possible -- possible but unlikely -- that they could both happen at the same time in some cases.

OI, would you feel comfortable sharing more about your experience, and the circumstances, etc., that led up to it?

And Amonhi, I too want to thank you for the discussion, whether it completely squares with my previous understanding(s) or not. What I am finding is that many people who have only been fed the milk of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are very uncomfortable with the meat -- especially right at first, and that the meat may include many paradigm busters, when compared to the milk. But as you say, those who have ears to hear will hear. And we are all on a different time table. But if we are sincerely, humbly seeking, I believe we will find. Thanks for all that you have shared.

[Gideon]

What I am finding is that many people who have only been fed the milk of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are very uncomfortable with the meat -- especially right at first.

I have been studying this subject on and off for years, and I discussed it with a General Authority in depth. I can't speak for anyone else, but my discomfort comes from the fact that some of the ideas presented seem to be directly opposed to what the Lord has revealed. On the other hand, some of it is very good.

[Amonhi]

Why do I not feel a good spirit when I read about this?

Do you feel a good spirit when reading about the topic in the scriptures? or in General Conference? I can point you to some great conference talks if you think they will be more palatable.

[Amonhi]

Have you and/or your wife then been translated?

What an awesome name you picked for yourself. I really like it.

No, we haven't been translated. Still mortal.

[Amonhi]

Now I think I understand why Utah is the fraud capitol of the world.

LOL, I love this! Sure I get what your saying and that it isn't in my favor, but really this was funny! LOL

[Amonhi]

Very good link on this subject: Please read.

For some reason it seems you need to actually type the address into the address bar because to just click on the link it doesn't seem to work. If anyone would take the time to read this, I would be interested in hearing others thoughts in comparing what is written in this link compared to what Amonhi has shared. Thank you.

http://emp.byui-edu/marrottr/CallElectSurJSBRMc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is great! Excellent idea! The link has some very good information, some of which I have quoted and much more that I haven't.

[Amonhi]

Why do I not feel a good spirit when I read about this?

Fear. Doubt.

What he has said is constant with with scripture and what prophets have said about C&E.

If you fear or doubt this is true, the less likely you are to seek it. Not seeking it is easier than seeking it.

So experiment. Prove this counsel. This will lead to 2 forks with 3 outcomes.

1) If you have confidence in your relationship with the Lord to answer your prayer you can ask God if you can have this promise. If you do not have confidence in your relationship with the Lord and your ability to recognize the Spirit, then work on that first.

2) Once you have confidence in your relationship with the Lord to answer your prayer (and your ability to recognize the Spirit) you can find out if you can have the promise of eternal life. (James 1:5) If the answer is not yet, then do as he suggests and ask what must you do in order to receive it.

So if you experiment you will either 1) work your ability to communicate with God and receive personal revelation, 2) find out what is holding you back in your progression, or 3) receive the promise of Eternal life. All of these things are better than the status quo it seems to me. And it seems Satan would love to instill fear and doubt to keep you from trying.

So try it out. What is the downside?

Wow, I am sooo with you on this! What an awesome post! I mean, there is a reason why all of my relations haven't received the blessing and the biggest one is that they are afraid to try. One even said, "I would hate to be accountable to that much knowledge". I'm like .... :-\ isn't that why you started this path? :-\

[Amonhi]

There are questions, though. Decades ago, I had an experience where I was repenting, and one night I had the most clear and distinct dream of meeting and embracing the Savior, and Him saying "Thy sins are forgiven." I was on my knees, embracing Him, and the sense of both joy and pure love there are not words to do it justice. The memory of that has remained with me throughout my life.

Wow! Thank you sooo much for sharing! It is difficult to describe to someone else the feeling of deep unconditional love and acceptance one feels in his presence. It changes you. Thank you for sharing this very special experience, I am truly honored to have heard it.

I guess I expected something a little more literal and - I hate to say it, but "profound". But maybe I am just one of those people that are making it harder than it is.

most do. We get so used to elaborate ordinances that we expect the greatest ones to be even bigger than the others. It is in it's simplicity a glorious experience.

If you wouldn't mind, I would like to use you as a second witness here to dispel a theory that is taught around the church. Some have said that the most powerful witness and experience you can have comes from the Holy Ghost. Having experienced the witness of the Holy Ghost and also been in the presence of Christ myself, I know for certain that all experiences with the Holy Ghost, and even angels, as wonderful as they have been, are like the light of stars when compared with the experience of meeting the Savior which is more akin to the Sun at noon day. Would you agree?

[Amonhi]

If they were part of the 144,000 they would have to be translated beings.

Not sure why we would have to be translated. There are some who are preaching in the spirit world to the spirits and some on earth and some who do both. The majority of our, (my wife and I), work has been to the living. By small, weak and simple means does the Lord cause the great things to happen.

Once again I am uncomfortable with someone coming on an internet forum saying they are part of this glorious missionary force of hunters (Jeremiah 16:16) which is to happen at the time of the redemption of Zion prior to the second coming of the Lord. Lets just say I have a healthy dose of skepticism here. I will leave it at that.

Understandably, but you know, eventually someone has to do the job. If it wasn't me, you would be skeptical of some other smuck. I am not asking you to trust me on this. I am asking you to go to and trust the Lord. 3 simple questions, between you and God. And as Jospeh Smith learned, God will give "liberally, and upbraideth not".

The Lord can't come to the world until the prophecies are fulfilled and there are enough people to receive him. First to individuals, then small groups, then larger groups and finally to the world.

Now you pointed out Jeremiah 16:16. The fisher dangles the bait and waits for fish to smell it and come to it. The hunter is more aggressive and doesn't even use bait. Would you say I was more like a fisher or a hunter?

[Amonhi]

My understanding is that a second annointing is the ordinance for having your calling and election made sure and it is an ordinance performed in the temple, given only to married couples.

This is another physical symbol of a spiritual ordinance. Once again, it must be ratified by the spirit to have any effect after this life.

Also, consider the quote by President Romney in General Conference (Elliaison quote) given earlier. President Romney didn't mince words. Here you have a member of the First Presidency telling the church as a whole in GC how it happens and how to expect it, what to look for. He gave similar GC talks 3 times. There are more examples we can draw from as well.

Do you think President Romney was mislead? Or misleading the church?