Church of the Firstborn

[Gad]

This is my interpretation of Amonhi's message, which is a conclusion that I had already come to based on my own searching and studies -- and it is that if you live in say China, North Korea, Outer Mongolia, India, the Jungles of Africa or the Amazon -- anywhere where millions of people live, who will probably never have an opportunity to have missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints come to your door, and will never have a chance to receive and read a Book of Mormon, but if -- for whatever reason -- like Joseph Smith (just for one example), you kneel down before your Maker, in utmost humility and faith, seeking to know and to do what your Maker would have you do, as the myriad of examples from the Scriptures clearly demonstrate, God's options for reaching out to such people are not limited by "official" channels, etc., etc., etc. Such a person could be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ by heavenly messengers, the Holy Ghost and/or Christ himself (all of which there are a myriad examples of in the scriptures) and receive all necessary ordinances, spiritual, physical and otherwise by whatever means the Lord deems appropriate under the circumstances, and become a member of the Church of the Firstborn without ever even having access to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and all the "official" channels and records, etc.

I think that in making such concessions, that there can be people in isolated instances, such as the father of Abish in the book of Mormon, we need to be wary and skeptical, so as to not taking them to the extreme, which is, simply, that individuals that seek to create their own groups and claim their own authority in whatever way will always use this phenomenon to recruit people into said groups. Furthermore, by pointing out flaws in the institutional Church, these types can set themselves up as alternative dispensers of salvation, or that perhaps they can "put in a good word" for their associates to the Lord in their behalf, or some such thing. Remember, a certain person used to be my home teaching companion 11 years ago, who claimed to be a dispenser of truth outside the institutional Church:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/firstbornchurch.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, in all seriousness, what is the difference between Terrill and any of these other claimants to "Second-Comforter micro-dispensationalism," for lack of a better term, aside from the fact that he is going to prison?

Ed

Christ worked within the priesthood authority established by Him through Moses even though those Presiding High Priests were nearly in the most absolute state of apostasy possible.

But Christ did have another church with their own lines of authority for those Nephite people who did have access to the Jerusalem authority.

Just because there is a priesthood line, doesn't mean that there isn't a need for repentence or for prophets from outside that line. (See Christ and Caiphas... Israel and the Old Testament prophets)

In the scriptures, prophets have often been called outside of priesthood lines, but they always called people to repentance. They never set up a church in competition with the priesthood lines when those priesthood lines of authority were still available to the people. (Same examples as above)

Those under the law of a priesthood authority are to repent and work within that authority to correct apostasy. But the existence of one church does not limit the Lord; He can and does have churches to work with those who do not have access to any other church. (See Bible and the Book of Mormon lines of authority)

Even the church of Alma the Elder (authorized instead of the Noah church because the Lord was going to separate those people just as Lehi was separated) had to be accepted by the presiding authority (Mosiah) when they were re-united.

Mosiah 25: 19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

It is interesting though, that Mosiah recognized the righteousness of Alma and his church and submitted to baptism into Alma's church.

Priesthood authority is not an assurance of righteousness. But true messengers to a group who is under the law of a church, and is going to remain within access to that law, never set up a church in competition to the law.

[awake]

Christ worked within the priesthood authority established by Him through Moses even though those Presiding High Priests were nearly in the most absolute state of apostasy possible.

But Christ did have another church with their own lines of authority for those Nephite people who did have access to the Jerusalem authority.

Just because there is a priesthood line, doesn't mean that there isn't a need for repentence or for prophets from outside that line. (See Christ and Caiphas... Israel and the Old Testament prophets)

In the scriptures, prophets have often been called outside of priesthood lines, but they always called people to repentance. They never set up a church in competition with the priesthood lines when those priesthood lines of authority were still available to the people. (Same examples as above)

Those under the law of a priesthood authority are to repent and work within that authority to correct apostasy. But the existence of one church does not limit the Lord; He can and does have churches to work with those who do not have access to any other church. (See Bible and the Book of Mormon lines of authority)

Even the church of Alma the Elder (authorized instead of the Noah church because the Lord was going to separate those people just as Lehi was separated) had to be accepted by the presiding authority (Mosiah) when they were re-united.

Mosiah 25: 19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

It is interesting though, that Mosiah recognized the righteousness of Alma and his church and submitted to baptism into Alma's church.

Priesthood authority is not an assurance of righteousness. But true messengers to a group who is under the law of a church, and is going to remain within access to that law, never set up a church in competition to the law.

Interesting thoughts. Since we see that the Lord can have more than 1 church with authority & prophets on the earth at a time, who's to say there isn't someone like 'Alma' with a few followers, somewhere today in a country that isn't allowed to have the Church there yet.

Maybe when the lost tribes get back together they will bring their own scriptures & Prophets with them.

Also, Priesthood 'authority' and 'power' is not only not an assurance of righteousness, it is actually immediately 'lost or non-existent' without righteousness.

[Helaman2000]

Christ worked within the priesthood authority established by Him through Moses even though those Presiding High Priests were nearly in the most absolute state of apostasy possible.

But Christ did have another church with their own lines of authority for those Nephite people who did have access to the Jerusalem authority.

Just because there is a priesthood line, doesn't mean that there isn't a need for repentence or for prophets from outside that line. (See Christ and Caiphas... Israel and the Old Testament prophets)

In the scriptures, prophets have often been called outside of priesthood lines, but they always called people to repentance. They never set up a church in competition with the priesthood lines when those priesthood lines of authority were still available to the people. (Same examples as above)

Those under the law of a priesthood authority are to repent and work within that authority to correct apostasy. But the existence of one church does not limit the Lord; He can and does have churches to work with those who do not have access to any other church. (See Bible and the Book of Mormon lines of authority)

Even the church of Alma the Elder (authorized instead of the Noah church because the Lord was going to separate those people just as Lehi was separated) had to be accepted by the presiding authority (Mosiah) when they were re-united.

Mosiah 25: 19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

It is interesting though, that Mosiah recognized the righteousness of Alma and his church and submitted to baptism into Alma's church.

Priesthood authority is not an assurance of righteousness. But true messengers to a group who is under the law of a church, and is going to remain within access to that law, never set up a church in competition to the law.

Well, see, you have just once again made the classic argument, and we could go around and around on the merry-go-round. The people have to make their own choice about whether they believe in someone or not, and they are also accountable for that choice. That is what it really boils down to. People are either followers of the correct spirit or they are not, and that spirit will lead them to the right people to follow, that are the true messengers. I can tell you that Terrill Dalton is not one of them, notwithstanding that he was a Second-Comforter claimant. I can tell you that among all the Second-Comforter claimants, there are probably others like him, who, even if they are not rapists like Dalton, they are still decievers, conscious or not. Perhaps they really believe in themselves. Most of the time, when people are led to and fro by the wrong spirit, they cannot discern it easily. I know of a number of people that had a hard time discerning what Dalton was about in the early part of his "coming out," and they could have sworn that they felt the Spirit when he was speaking, because whatever spirit it was, it was masquerading. Abish's father did not "come out" among the Lamanites. He kept it in confidence among a few like his daughter. That is the common thread for people that truly have those experiences, is they keep it relatively private, and take no right unto themselves to preach or organize or make claims. So really, people like me can speak as a warning voice, and people like you can make an argument for a possibility of someone like that. But people in the end will either be decieved or not be decieved, and they will be accountable for it. If they want to take the risk, then that is their risk to take. There is no blatant iniquity in the Church in our day in our hierarchy. There is only people out there that disagree with the decisions and the doctrine who cry foul, and assume that there is no revelation, because the revelation doesn't agree with the methods or outcome that the people that cry foul would have in mind or prefer.

The difference between Alma and the people of Limhi that were left over after Noah's death is clear. Alma had authority, notwithstanding he had sinned, and then he repented. The people of Limhi did not take it upon themselves to organize a Church. Alma, when they went back to Zarahemla, submitted to Mosiah, who had the keys.

Second-Comforter claimants in this new phenomenon of Second-Comforter micro-dispensationalism are claiming authority or rights of some sort outside of the brethren, and claim that as long as they can secure calling and election, even if they are excommunicated, they are going to be fine in the end, and trying to stand up to the brethren will lead to no dire or eternal consequence. And they flatter other people into believing the same. Far from being like Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom, they will awake in torment and eternal regret, being held accountable for not only their own actions, but also for the loss of those whom they have led away with them.

I know Dalton personally. He was my home teaching companion. He was a personal friend of mine in my same ward in Magna, UT before he went off the deep end, before I moved from there.

Ed Goble

[Mark]

Christ worked within the priesthood authority established by Him through Moses even though those Presiding High Priests were nearly in the most absolute state of apostasy possible.

But Christ did have another church with their own lines of authority for those Nephite people who did have access to the Jerusalem authority.

Just because there is a priesthood line, doesn't mean that there isn't a need for repentence or for prophets from outside that line. (See Christ and Caiphas... Israel and the Old Testament prophets)

In the scriptures, prophets have often been called outside of priesthood lines, but they always called people to repentance. They never set up a church in competition with the priesthood lines when those priesthood lines of authority were still available to the people. (Same examples as above)

Those under the law of a priesthood authority are to repent and work within that authority to correct apostasy. But the existence of one church does not limit the Lord; He can and does have churches to work with those who do not have access to any other church. (See Bible and the Book of Mormon lines of authority)

Even the church of Alma the Elder (authorized instead of the Noah church because the Lord was going to separate those people just as Lehi was separated) had to be accepted by the presiding authority (Mosiah) when they were re-united.

Mosiah 25: 19 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

It is interesting though, that Mosiah recognized the righteousness of Alma and his church and submitted to baptism into Alma's church.

Priesthood authority is not an assurance of righteousness. But true messengers to a group who is under the law of a church, and is going to remain within access to that law, never set up a church in competition to the law.

Well, see, you have just once again made the classic argument, and we could go around and around on the merry-go-round. The people have to make their own choice about whether they believe in someone or not, and they are also accountable for that choice. That is what it really boils down to. People are either followers of the correct spirit or they are not, and that spirit will lead them to the right people to follow, that are the true messengers. I can tell you that Terrill Dalton is not one of them, notwithstanding that he was a Second-Comforter claimant. I can tell you that among all the Second-Comforter claimants, there are probably others like him, who, even if they are not rapists like Dalton, they are still decievers, conscious or not. Perhaps they really believe in themselves. Most of the time, when people are led to and fro by the wrong spirit, they cannot discern it easily. I know of a number of people that had a hard time discerning what Dalton was about in the early part of his "coming out," and they could have sworn that they felt the Spirit when he was speaking, because whatever spirit it was, it was masquerading. Abish's father did not "come out" among the Lamanites. He kept it in confidence among a few like his daughter. That is the common thread for people that truly have those experiences, is they keep it relatively private, and take no right unto themselves to preach or organize or make claims. So really, people like me can speak as a warning voice, and people like you can make an argument for a possibility of someone like that. But people in the end will either be decieved or not be decieved, and they will be accountable for it. If they want to take the risk, then that is their risk to take. There is no blatant iniquity in the Church in our day in our hierarchy. There is only people out there that disagree with the decisions and the doctrine who cry foul, and assume that there is no revelation, because the revelation doesn't agree with the methods or outcome that the people that cry foul would have in mind or prefer.

The difference between Alma and the people of Limhi that were left over after Noah's death is clear. Alma had authority, notwithstanding he had sinned, and then he repented. The people of Limhi did not take it upon themselves to organize a Church. Alma, when they went back to Zarahemla, submitted to Mosiah, who had the keys.

Second-Comforter claimants in this new phenomenon of Second-Comforter micro-dispensationalism are claiming authority or rights of some sort outside of the brethren, and claim that as long as they can secure calling and election, even if they are excommunicated, they are going to be fine in the end, and trying to stand up to the brethren will lead to no dire or eternal consequence. And they flatter other people into believing the same. Far from being like Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom, they will awake in torment and eternal regret, being held accountable for not only their own actions, but also for the loss of those whom they have led away with them.

I know Dalton personally. He was my home teaching companion. He was a personal friend of mine in my same ward in Magna, UT before he went off the deep end, before I moved from there.

Ed Goble

I have met a few like Dalton myself Ed. They become a law unto themselves. The "spirit" just convinces them to do weirder and weirder things until before you know it they are in la la land committing all kinds of whoredoms and justifying every one of them by the "spirit". Thats why we need living prophets along with the scriptures and the Holy Ghost all as part of the three legged stool as a safety net against following the wrong "spirit".

[Helaman2000]

I have met a few like Dalton myself Ed. They become a law unto themselves. The "spirit" just convinces them to do weirder and weirder things until before you know it they are in la la land committing all kinds of whoredoms and justifying every one of them by the "spirit". Thats why we need living prophets along with the scriptures and the Holy Ghost all as part of the three legged stool as a safety net against following the wrong "spirit".

Boy, tell me about it. Reincarnation was just the beginning. Try this one on for size. Terrill thought he had the keys of time travel, since he was the Holy Ghost, to be able to transport his spirit back in time from the end of time, and be born as Terrill.
So he was the Holy Ghost and Terrill at the same point in time, both as a spirit and as the incarnated Terrill, two separate instances of himself on two separate timelines. And then he would be able to die, and then go back to be reincarnated again as the Adam-God, the Father of Jesus, and then die and be reincarnated once again as Noah/Gabriel. So the Multiple Mortalities thing becomes loops in time to where he can be whoever he wants throughout history, but not necessarily in temporal order.

And of course, he was able to translate the book called the "sacred stone" from the hieroglypics on the Rosetta Stone. At first, he just had a picture of it on his site and didn't identify the stone. But then, when I called him on it, because I knew what the Rosetta Stone looked like (being an amateur archaeology buff, and not born yesterday), then he came up with other big explanations from the "spirit" about it to justify how the rosetta stone was not actually what science said it was, that the Egyptologists couldn't translate it correctly and so forth, and only he could.

Then, while Pres. Hinckley was still alive, he claimed to have had a secret meeting with Pres. Hinckley and said that Pres. Hinckley knew that he was a secret prophet. And I was like, whatever...

[Mark]

I have met a few like Dalton myself Ed. They become a law unto themselves. The "spirit" just convinces them to do weirder and weirder things until before you know it they are in la la land committing all kinds of whoredoms and justifying every one of them by the "spirit". Thats why we need living prophets along with the scriptures and the Holy Ghost all as part of the three legged stool as a safety net against following the wrong "spirit".

Boy, tell me about it. Reincarnation was just the beginning. Try this one on for size. Terrill thought he had the keys of time travel, since he was the Holy Ghost, to be able to transport his spirit back in time from the end of time, and be born as Terrill.
So he was the Holy Ghost and Terrill at the same point in time, both as a spirit and as the incarnated Terrill, two separate instances of himself on two separate timelines. And then he would be able to die, and then go back to be reincarnated again as the Adam-God, the Father of Jesus, and then die and be reincarnated once again as Noah/Gabriel. So the Multiple Mortalities thing becomes loops in time to where he can be whoever he wants throughout history, but not necessarily in temporal order.

And of course, he was able to translate the book called the "sacred stone" from the hieroglypics on the Rosetta Stone. At first, he just had a picture of it on his site and didn't identify the stone. But then, when I called him on it, because I knew what the Rosetta Stone looked like (being an amateur archaeology buff, and not born yesterday), then he came up with other big explanations from the "spirit" about it to justify how the rosetta stone was not actually what science said it was, that the Egyptologists couldn't translate it correctly and so forth, and only he could.

Then, while Pres. Hinckley was still alive, he claimed to have had a secret meeting with Pres. Hinckley and said that Pres. Hinckley knew that he was a secret prophet. And I was like, whatever...

He should get together with Jim Harmston of TLC fame Ed. Put them both in a room together and before you could say false spirits that room would be spinning like a top with objects flying in every direction. :-ss There would have to be a lottery among the 1/3rd hosts for standing room only as to who got to join in on the party. :ymparty:

[Helaman2000]

lol

[Thinker]

...Just as the law of Moses was misunderstood by the ancients who often thought that through it they would get to heaven, so to do we now think that we can get to the Celestial Kingdom through the principles & ordinances of the Aaronic priesthood which are only symbols of the true spiritual ordinances. Even the ordinances of the Mel. Priesthood as given in the church are signs and symbols but are ultimately meaningless without the Holy Spirit of promise sealing the blessings thereby making them sure. This is why you can receive all the ordinances of the LDS Church and still not be guaranteed exaltation, eternal families or any of the blessings you seek through the physical ordinances. Conversely, God can and does seal people without the physical ordinances. (It is rare, but it does happen to those who do not rely on dead works.) There is no blessing that God will deny the deserving who ask for it, regardless of whether they have access to the church authority and ordinances.

Without the Holy Spirit of Promise, all covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise are void no matter who does it with what priesthood authority or physical church position. Men cannot write your name in heaven in the book of life. And, in reverse, no man can remove from the "Book of Life" the name of a person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit and yet has not gone through the church system. It is not man's call. And God still uses and gives His own Priesthood as he did anciently when he gave the priesthood to Esaias who was "blessed by Abraham" but receive his priesthood from "the hand of God" and not through the church or through the line of Melchizedek, (D&C 84:12-14).

"On no, I've said too much...but I haven't said enough..." - REM

A wedding doesn't make a marriage - but it's more like the intent/blueprint plan.
Temple work, scriptures & any other spiritual tools are not the end themselves, but tools to help us along.
God is no respector of persons... whethr Muslim, Buddhist or Mormon.
We can fake it in this life - full of subjective illusions, but spirtually - you either have a certain spirit or your don't - no faking it.

[soloheart]

I feel good about what Amonhi asks us to try.
I am also reading a book called Experiencing The Mighty Change at http://toddjumper.com/ETMC/etmc.htm.

If you are interested in Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost, Making ones' Calling and Election Sure etc, then this book shows how to approach them. Amonhi, what do you think about this book? I am so far on Chapter 2 and feel quite a meat of the Gospel. Makes me ponder a lot.

[marc]

You will receive ministerings according to the Lord's expediency and purposes and not to satisfy our own curiosities. When you live your life by diligently obeying all of God's commandments in your quest to come unto Christ, you will be ministered to accordingly. I recommend your focus be on making a serious study of the Book of Mormon, especially the first two books, namely first and second Nephi. Pattern your life after Nephi, Jacob and Enos and many others like Alma the younger, Ammon, Nephi (son of Helaman) and Moroni.

[SpeedRacer]

Original_Intent – Great reference to C.S.Lewis. He is a perfect example. Thanks.

Really have loved your posts on C&E and CoF. I feel like I am on the path. So are you saying C.S. Lewis is a good example because he comes to meetings at the CoF?