Church of the Firstborn

[reese]

All of the physical carnal laws and commandments are signposts and symbols pointing to Charity. They attempt to force people to mimic love, but do not produce love. In fact contrary to Love, they produce greater SELFISHNESS, and the need for more laws. Consider an actual example of what I am talking about... Quoting another C&E'r I know from another Forum - Seeker:

In raising our children we wanted love to be their highest focus. So we incorporated a number of inspired principles which the common parrent doesn't. In the case of our oldest daughter, if she hit someone or hurt someone at a young age, rather than bringing down the hard law of punishment and focusing on the her for hitting, we focused on the one she hurt and poured out sympathy, love and compassion entirely ignoring her action of hitting the person. She saw us making things right and how to treat others. Compassion in action. When the other person was "OK", then we simply when on with our business not bringing any attention to our young daughter.

We were over joyed when we began to see the fruits of our labors! At 4 years old, she was playing with 2 of her cousins. One of her cousins got hurt, (nothing major, just bonked her head). The other Cousin immediately jumped up and ran to his parents yelling "I didn't do it! I didn't do it!" in an effort to circumvent any punishment he might receive being under the law. We all looked to see what was happening and there was my daughter comforting her cousin, helping her, and loving on her without a thought for her own well being. My wife and I were overjoyed with this simple success and greatfull to see the stark contrast between those who are raised under the law and those who aren't.

Now, as you said, you don't need to worry about these things as you are not there yet. You and your children will be/are raised under the law. Just see to it that you and they fulfill the law and it will be well with you & them.

Amonhi, thankyou for posting this. I have a 5 and 8 year old that are driving me CRAZY. I am dreading summer! I am going to start doing this. I hate always trying to punish and find out which one needs to be punished so the other feels vindicated. Now I am going to just vindicate the one hurt, which means suddenly the other one will be hurt and needing love as well .
I can see that this may well be my solution I have been seeking. Thankyou.

) I just got my first chance. I saved the cat from our 5 yr old and snuggled it and asked if it was okay and loved it. Normally I would smack my boy's little bottom as he ran by and tell him to leave the cat alone. This is much better....actually I see all kinds of oppurtunity here....I have a very hormonal 14 yr old boy as well .

[7cylon7]

I enjoy running and wakeboarding. I have competed in both. I try to improve in both. One of the best ways to improve is to seek the advice of how other runners and wakeboarders progressed. If they have more skill or success than I, I value their opinions more.

Some people when they hear advice/counsel that is new to them doubt it, or argue that their own view is superior. When I doubt the advice of a runner who can finish a marathon in under 3 hours and has run 10 marathons, when I have never run one, who is more likely to have correct information? If I doubt the advice of Michael Jordan when I am trying to be a better basketball player, what does that say about myself?

Why do people doubt the advice of the successful? Is it resentment they others have succeeded where you have failed? Is your doubt a substitute for your excuses for you own failure? You have failed, you have not succeeded, why not find out the cause of your failure from one who has succeeded?

Amonhi has claimed to have had his calling and election made sure and associates with other who similarly have. That makes him very successful in attaining a goal many of us are seeking (I would hope).

This is either true, or it is not.

If it is true, his knowledge and understanding of the Church of the Firstborn is better than yours (not being a member). It would probably do well to understand him and adjust YOUR paradigm.

Or it is not true. Ask God to find out. By your fruits ye shall know them. I've only seen good fruits. I've only been encouraged to seek God more. Moroni 7:12-13

But there is little to be gained by contending over what he says.

Because most people that claim it are either telling the truth OR are looney have a deceiving spirits, are deceived themselves, are prideful, trying to lead you into apostasy. Even the prophets don't claim it openly. So should I spend time trying to get a confirmation from the spirit about ahmoni whatever, some avatar on some forum. I don't think I'll put much effort into it. I do like to read what such people have to say though. But is it really so hard to see why people may not believe him? really?

[sbsion]

How can someone who is raised under Telestial conditions escape sin, regardless of how great their parents are? Heavenly Father raisied His children under Celestial conditions and He still lost one third. The righteousness of the parents is the result of agency, not DNA, therefore it isn't inherited.

Actually DNA does have something to do with it, but I don't need to or want to go into that here and now. Your right, heavenly Father lost a third because of agency. I do not suppose that children raised in the higher law/in the millennium will have no agency and some may choose other paths. It is conceivable. However, remember that when God's children chose the other path in the Pre-mortal world, they became Sons of Perdition. So to Children who are raised without sin unto salvation will have the option to become sons of perdition. This does not Change the fact that it is possible to raise children without the law and so without sin to salvation.

Now, as you said, you don't need to worry about these things as you are not there yet. You and your children will be/are raised under the law. Just see to it that you and they fulfill the law and it will be well with you & them.

let's get it right, it's all about intelligence and manifstation............ WE ARE........tests are merely "forces" to bring about manifestation of the NATURE of an intelligence, and just like FATHER, "the same yesterday, today, and forever", enjoy your self discovery

[ATL Wake]

But is it really so hard to see why people may not believe him? really?

I suppose. It is difficult recognizing some people.

Mosiah 12:1 And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words; they have repented not of their evil doings; therefore, I will bvisit them in my anger, yea, in my fierce anger will I visit them in their iniquities and abominations.

[HeirofNumenor]

For those of you having difficulty accepting Amonhi's claims about himself, why don't you put that aside if it bothers you, and look at the INFORMATION he's offered, the context, the sources, etc. you CANNOT deny the truthfulness of the scriptures! And I cannot deny the spirit that has testified of the truthfulness of those things I've read, and that they were offered in appropriate context and spirit.

Which is why I'm not arguing against it, but rather am very grateful for his respectful tone and approach... :ymhug:

[God's Army]

For those of you having difficulty accepting Amonhi's claims about himself, why don't you put that aside if it bothers you, and look at the INFORMATION he's offered, the context, the sources, etc. you CANNOT deny the truthfulness of the scriptures! And I cannot deny the spirit that has testified of the truthfulness of those things I've read, and that they were offered in appropriate context and spirit.

+1. To my knowledge he hasn't taught anything contrary to what the scriptures teach us and unless he does, I don't find any fault with him.

[Gideon]

For those of you having difficulty accepting Amonhi's claims about himself, why don't you put that aside if it bothers you, and look at the INFORMATION he's offered, the context, the sources, etc. you CANNOT deny the truthfulness of the scriptures! And I cannot deny the spirit that has testified of the truthfulness of those things I've read, and that they were offered in appropriate context and spirit.

You are right, we can analyze his message without analyzing his personal claims, and he does have some interesting things to say, and I believe much of it myself. However, if we accept everything he teaches, we still need to know if he is really from God.

"And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments."
(Mosiah 23:14‎)‎

I learned a long time ago that the 144,000 are a lot different from what people who rely on commentaries think, and just before Amonhi started posting, I visualized them going about quietly helping others to truly come to Christ and take whatever steps they need to come into the Church of the Firstborn. Amonhi's activities are similar to what I imagined, but it is a very bold claim nonetheless.

If all of his teachings fit neatly with the scriptures he would have a much stronger position, but not all of them do. For reasons not yet clear to me he has suggested that we don't need physical ordinances, that we can get them from God without submitting to the organization that God created. Where will this practice lead?

If those of us with young children decide to raise them without the law, or without the physical ordinances, will they become members of the Church? Will they receive the priesthood? Will they have the opportunity to serve and grow in the church? Will they be able to attend the temple? I thought the mission of the 144,000 was to lead as many as will come into the Church of the Firstborn, not to lead them away from His Preparatory Church.

If Amonhi had just started posting about making your calling and election sure etc, he would be like anyone else on here, but when he stated that the had seen Christ, that his calling and election was made sure, that he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn, that he and his wife are part of the 144,000, he changed his status. Now, he is God's official representative to us, and part of his message is that we don't need physical ordinances.

[HeirofNumenor]

For those of you having difficulty accepting Amonhi's claims about himself, why don't you put that aside if it bothers you, and look at the INFORMATION he's offered, the context, the sources, etc. you CANNOT deny the truthfulness of the scriptures! And I cannot deny the spirit that has testified of the truthfulness of those things I've read, and that they were offered in appropriate context and spirit.

You are right, we can analyze his message without analyzing his personal claims, and he does have some interesting things to say, and I believe much of it myself. However, if we accept everything he teaches, we still need to know if he is really from God.

"And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments."
(Mosiah 23:14‎)‎

I learned a long time ago that the 144,000 are a lot different from what people who rely on commentaries think, and just before Amonhi started posting, I visualized them going about quietly helping others to truly come to Christ and take whatever steps they need to come into the Church of the Firstborn. Amonhi's activities are similar to what I imagined, but it is a very bold claim nonetheless.

If all of his teachings fit neatly with the scriptures he would have a much stronger position, but not all of them do. For reasons not yet clear to me he has suggested that we don't need physical ordinances, that we can get them from God without submitting to the organization that God created. Where will this practice lead?

If those of us with young children decide to raise them without the law, or without the physical ordinances, will they become members of the Church? Will they receive the priesthood? Will they have the opportunity to serve and grow in the church? Will they be able to attend the temple? I thought the mission of the 144,000 was to lead as many as will come into the Church of the Firstborn, not to lead them away from His Preparatory Church.

If Amonhi had just started posting about making your calling and election sure etc, he would be like anyone else on here, but when he stated that the had seen Christ, that his calling and election was made sure, that he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn, that he and his wife are part of the 144,000, he changed his status. Now, he is God's official representative to us, and part of his message is that we don't need physical ordinances.

You are correct Gideon...and that is a big part of the uneasiness that myself and others feel about these posts...the good feelings that we get come from the subject matter in general, and the scriptures are from God...yet are still uneasy due to their arrangement, and the presentation/claims (and NOT because "we prefer milk over meat" - many of us do just fine pondering & applying the applications of scripture and doctrine to our lives, but we are NOT feeling the LDS Church is holding us back from anything)...

I do greatly appreciate the respectful discussion, without the claims that the LDS Church has fallen (as an institution) which seems to be so prevalent on this forum...

[Walden]

Actually, my understanding of his message is different. Physical ordinances are not necessary, but are used because they are easier to witness. However God is the ultimatum here, and that is what I think he's saying. It doesn't matter what physical ordinances you have, if you are still "enduring to the end", instead of reaching the end ASAP, then you've missed the boat. And if people have received their spiritual ordinances directly from Christ then they don't need the physical copies. Please correct me if I'm wrong Amonhi.

[ATL Wake]

How is it that a message that says, go get your physical ordinances confirmed spiritually get interpreted to mean your physical ordinances don't matter?

[tmac]

This is my interpretation of Amonhi's message, which is a conclusion that I had already come to based on my own searching and studies -- and it is that if you live in say China, North Korea, Outer Mongolia, India, the Jungles of Africa or the Amazon -- anywhere where millions of people live, who will probably never have an opportunity to have missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints come to your door, and will never have a chance to receive and read a Book of Mormon, but if -- for whatever reason -- like Joseph Smith (just for one example), you kneel down before your Maker, in utmost humility and faith, seeking to know and to do what your Maker would have you do, as the myriad of examples from the Scriptures clearly demonstrate, God's options for reaching out to such people are not limited by "official" channels, etc., etc., etc. Such a person could be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ by heavenly messengers, the Holy Ghost and/or Christ himself (all of which there are a myriad examples of in the scriptures) and receive all necessary ordinances, spiritual, physical and otherwise by whatever means the Lord deems appropriate under the circumstances, and become a member of the Church of the Firstborn without ever even having access to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and all the "official" channels and records, etc. My own interpretation is that both the the physical and spiritual ordinances will ultimately happen, by those with authority to perform the ordinances, even if it is, as with Joseph Smith, by John the Baptist, or Peter James & John. There are plenty of instances in the scriptures, for example, of those who were baptized by fire and the holy ghost before they were baptized by water, but I have to assume that eventually and ultimately they were also baptized by water. And the same would appear to be true for all the other ordinances.

But obviously, for all those of us who are situated in such a way that we have access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ by other means, and can spend hours debating the ins and outs of our salvation on an internet forum, the Church and its channels and leaders, etc., are there for us to use. The problem is that we may very well become blinded by the Church organization and channels and programs, etc., to the whole picture, and the very important and requisite other side of the whole equation, which is the other part of the message -- that a person can be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and receive all the physical ordinances, etc., but unless and until those ordinances are sealed by the spirit -- until a person who is baptized by water, for example, is also baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost -- they are not yet members of the Church of the Firstborn and will not be -- nor receive the rewards of such membership -- until they have done what is required to receive all the spiritual ordinances and become active members of the Church of the Firstborn.

The other thing to clearly understand is that while there will be many, many members of the LDS Church who do not end up in the Celestial Kingdom, all members of the Church of the Firstborn will be there . . . and everyone who is there will be a member of the Church of the Firstborn. I also know that that the conventional wisdom and the paradigm that many have come to accept in the Church is that we shouldn't expect all or even much of that to happen during the course of our mortal probation, but I have come to conclude that when people are ready, and the eyes of their understandings have been opened, and they have developed eyes to see and ears to hear that the true message(s) of the BOM will start to be opened to them and they will begin to understand that just as the Aaronic Priesthood is a preparatory priesthood, that the LDS Church and its organization, programs, teachings and ordinances are likewise preparatory for the Church of the Firstborn, and when they start to make these realizations, a seed of knowledge and desire will start to expand and grow inside of them, then depending on whether that seed has fallen in good, deep fertile soil, or shallow, stony, or weedy soil, the desire to do something about it will sprout and grow according to the quality of the soil, and how much the tender new plant is nurtured, cultivated and tended, while Satan will obviously seek to choke and destroy and crowd it out by whatever means are available.

[Original_Intent]

This is my interpretation of Amonhi's message, which is a conclusion that I had already come to based on my own searching and studies -- and it is that if you live in say China, North Korea, Outer Mongolia, India, the Jungles of Africa or the Amazon -- anywhere where millions of people live, who will probably never have an opportunity to have missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints come to your door, and will never have a chance to receive and read a Book of Mormon, but if -- for whatever reason -- like Joseph Smith (just for one example), you kneel down before your Maker, in utmost humility and faith, seeking to know and to do what your Maker would have you do, as the myriad of examples from the Scriptures clearly demonstrate, God's options for reaching out to such people are not limited by "official" channels, etc., etc., etc. Such a person could be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ by heavenly messengers, the Holy Ghost and/or Christ himself (all of which there are a myriad examples of in the scriptures) and receive all necessary ordinances, spiritual, physical and otherwise by whatever means the Lord deems appropriate under the circumstances, and become a member of the Church of the Firstborn without ever even having access to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and all the "official" channels and records, etc. My own interpretation is that both the the physical and spiritual ordinances will ultimately, by those with authority to perform the ordinances, even if it is, as with Joseph Smith, John the Baptist, or Peter James & John. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures, for example, of those who were baptized by fire and the holy ghost before they were baptized by water, but I have to assume that eventually and ultimately they were also baptized by water. And the same would appear to be true for all the other ordinances.

The other part of the message, though, is that a person can be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and receive all the physical ordinances, etc., but unless and until those ordinances are seal by the spirit -- until a person who is baptized by water is also baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost -- they are not yet members of the Church of the Firstborn and will not be -- nor receive the rewards of such membership -- until they have received all the spiritual ordinances.

And I also know that that the conventional wisdom and the paradigm that many have come to accept in the Church is that we shouldn't expect all or even much of that to happen during the course of our mortal probation, but I have come to conclude that when people are ready, and the eyes of their understandings have been opened, and they have developed eyes to see and ears to hear that the true message(s) of the BOM will start to be opened to them and they will begin to understand that just as the Aaronic Priesthood is a preparatory priesthood, that the LDS Church and its organization, teachings and ordinances are likewise preparatory for the Church of the Firstborn, and when they start to make these realizations, depending on whether that seed of knowledge falls in good soil or stony, shallow soil, a seed of desire to do something about it will start to grow inside of them.

Very excellent post..it always reminds me of the "conversion" story of C.S. Lewis - not to the LDS faith but from atheist/agnositic to Christianity. It really is a great story, and I feel that he is likely an example of someone who received the baptism of fire without ever receiving the baptism of water in mortality. While he did not have the authority of our modern day prophets and apostles, even they often reference his writings in talks. I have not read everything he ever wrote, but I would say about 75%...he certainly understood the big picture better than most, even LDS.

[7cylon7]

The Second Comforter

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted.

When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

These are the words of Joseph Smith about who should receive this second comforter. The part that should be looked at closely is that only after the Lord has proven a man and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards then and only then will his election be made sure. Is it likely that said person would be at the beginning of his life or near the end of his life when this would happen?

He goes on and says this about those who have the C&E made sure....

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions--Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.

Calling and Election

Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son of God [Mt 17:5], yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son?

Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their calling and election was made sure, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promised sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation. Then knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

Compare this principle once with Christendom at the present day, and where are they, with all their boasted religion, piety and sacredness while at the same time they are crying out against prophets, apostles, angels, revelations, prophesying and visions, etc. Why, they are just ripening for the damnation of hell. They will be damned, for they reject the most glorious principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and treat with disdain and trample under foot the key that unlocks the heavens and puts in our possession the glories of the celestial world. Yes, I say, such will be damned, with all their professed godliness. Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves, by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it.

[A Random Phrase]

How is it that a message that says, go get your physical ordinances confirmed spiritually get interpreted to mean your physical ordinances don't matter?

:ymapplause:

[Original_Intent]

The Second Comforter

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted.

When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

These are the words of Joseph Smith about who should receive this second comforter. The part that should be looked at closely is that only after the Lord has proven a man and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards then and only then will his election be made sure. Is it likely that said person would be at the beginning of his life or near the end of his life when this would happen?

He goes on and says this about those who have the C&E made sure.... I am not sure, but I assume this last paragraph is your commentary, while everything else is quoted. I have a slight disagreement with your interpretation, and something you say later kind of indicates otherwise. Note that it is after the Lord has proven a man and finds that man will serve him at all hazards is the condition. This does not mean that the man will have to endure all trials before his C&E is made sure. It just means that the Lord has proved him so that He knows (and possibly equally important, the man knows) that he will serve Him no matter what. I think this could happen at any point in life. For Joseph Smith it happened at 14, although we know that the majority of his TRIALS that he had to endure happened AFTER his C&E was made sure. And like I said, something you state later, which I will BOLD, supports this.

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions--Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.

Calling and Election

Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son of God [Mt 17:5], yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son?

Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their calling and election was made sure, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promised sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation. Then knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

Compare this principle once with Christendom at the present day, and where are they, with all their boasted religion, piety and sacredness while at the same time they are crying out against prophets, apostles, angels, revelations, prophesying and visions, etc. Why, they are just ripening for the damnation of hell. They will be damned, for they reject the most glorious principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and treat with disdain and trample under foot the key that unlocks the heavens and puts in our possession the glories of the celestial world. Yes, I say, such will be damned, with all their professed godliness. Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves, by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it.

I do agree with you, I think it more likely that it will happen, if not near the end of life, certainly later rather than earlier IN MOST CASES. But I also think there is a pitfall here, in that if that is accepted it will not be diligently sought after until "later" and thus we procrastinate and possibly deny ourselves this great blessing in this life. As the bolded portion of your quote indicates, how much better if we have this as an anchor to support us during our trials of our life. And I do believe that we can receive it before the trials, as with the children of Israel during the exodus, the way is simple, we simply must LOOK, but because of the easiness or the simplicity of what is required, many fail to do so. (And I obviously fall into this category.)

I guess what I am feeling lately is that we completely disbelieve that we can ever "be there" - we will always tell ourselves "I have not been tried enough, this is something that only happens later in life, or to prophets and apostles, etc. etc. My new perspective is that a 20 year old that is actively seeking it, though they may not receive it for 30 more years, or at all in mortality, yet they will receive it sooner if they are actively seeking it (or if they never receive it, they will have lived far better) for having sought it from their youth than otherwise. Indeed, I am feeling that we may fall into a bit of a bad habit of telling ourselves that it is always later, and never today.

Certainly it will be done on the Lord's schedule, not ours. But unlike earthly parents, I do not feel the Savior or Heavenly Father get tired of us "pestering" them for a closer relationship or for seeking every good gift - I think they welcome it and rejoice in it.

edit: I just reread my post and realized I didn;t really sum up my point very well. It was simply this: If your C&E can support you through every hour of trial and tribulation, then it is clear that you don't need to have gone through every trial and tribulation in orderr to have your C&E made sure. Joseph Smith Jr. went through a lifetime of having his life threatened, imprisonment, etc. AFTER having his C&E made sure. Clearly, the Lord "proved him" without him having to actually go through every hazard. Still not sure I am making my point, please ask questions if this isn't clear.

[reese]

I think you are right OI. If the requirement is to actually endure every test and trial, up to and including giving our life, then we could know for sure that we will not receive our C&E until we have died for the Lord. And thus we should not bother seeking it, but only to endure all things as best we can so we can get it after we've proven everything.

Now although this seems to be the frame of mind of most mormons, it is incorrect. If it were this way then Peter and Joseph would not have encouraged all saints to go on until they have had their C&E sure. In fact they taught it in such a way as to say that it is not only something we can do, but something we should do.

The Lord knows each of us. He knows which of us will sacrifice all things for him. How can he not know this about us? So the timing really shouldn't matter as to when he tells someone they have made their C&E sure. He could tell each of us as infants if he wanted to. The only thing putting a restriction on the timing is us. Because it is a truth that until we have sacrificed enough to gain the the necessary faith to lay hold upon the blessing(lectures on faith), then we will not be able to claim it. All we will be able to do is talk about it like we are doing here.

The trials are to provide an oppurtunity for us to sacrifice. When we make sacrifice for the Lord he gives us faith. When we have done that enough and have been givin enough faith, we can then approach the Lord.

Of course we will continue to sacrifice and be tested and tried anfter receiving our C&E. All examples of people receiving their C&E, that I can think, did not die immediately afterward. They continued to live life. Life is hard. Life was meant to be hard, because if we will use it, it will provide opputunities for sacrifice.

So to me having your C&E made sure, is not saying: "Your done. You will no longer have to prove yourself. Good job!" It is saying: "You have proven to me(the Lord) and yourself that you will always obey. You will still have to prove yourself, but we both know that you will do it! Good job!"

I think that because of our fear and ignorance we all fall short of the great blessings that the Lord is so willing to bestow upon us.

[Amonhi]

However, if we accept everything he teaches, we still need to know if he is really from God.

"And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments."
(Mosiah 23:14‎)‎

How do you recognize a man of God? What criteria do you measure him against? If he is a man of God in the lower law, then you can measure him against the lower law. (But you might think the pharisees were men of God as they were strick in walking in His ways and keeping His Commandments.) Christ lived the lower law and fulfilled it in order to show others the way out, but he taught the higher law which the lower law pointed to. For this they killed him. If he is a man of God in the Higher Law, which is love, then how can you measure him against that?

On another note, I recommend that you not "make me your teacher". I don't need/want a following. Follow the spirit and let the spirit, not man, "TEACH YOU ALL THINGS". When a person speaks and the spirit witnesses and you believe the spirit, then you have been taught by the spirit and not the man.

I learned a long time ago that the 144,000 are a lot different from what people who rely on commentaries think, and just before Amonhi started posting, I visualized them going about quietly helping others to truly come to Christ and take whatever steps they need to come into the Church of the Firstborn. Amonhi's activities are similar to what I imagined, but it is a very bold claim nonetheless.

Crazy huh! Its like things are really happening. I often try to put myself in your position and imagine how I would have reacted. I even go farther and ask, If I lived in Christ's day and heard his message, how would I have reacted. Would I shout to crucify him or would I have ignored him or would I have accepted his message? Anyway, I have asked for a second witness to back up some of the things I have said, particularly the info in the "Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure". Remember that we all at different levels of progression and learning. I am sure that some of the things taught by me in this forum would be new to other C&E'ers just as some of the things they could teach would be new to me. So I do not expect that the second witness will be able to provide a second witness for everything I said, but they will be able to for the most important points. It will be exciting to see what he has to say. He didn't receive his promise on the fast track using the questions I suggested, but I bet he wishes he had.

If all of his teachings fit neatly with the scriptures he would have a much stronger position, but not all of them do. For reasons not yet clear to me he has suggested that we don't need physical ordinances, that we can get them from God without submitting to the organization that God created. Where will this practice lead?

I started a thread showing spiritual ordinances without Physical ones hoping that you will see that this is a very common theme in the scriptures. There are literally hundreds of examples.

If those of us with young children decide to raise them without the law, or without the physical ordinances, will they become members of the Church? Will they receive the priesthood? Will they have the opportunity to serve and grow in the church? Will they be able to attend the temple? I thought the mission of the 144,000 was to lead as many as will come into the Church of the Firstborn, not to lead them away from His Preparatory Church.

Do not attempt to raise children without the law unless you are instructed to do so (by Revelation) and given the coaching required, (by Revelation). Also, If you started under the law, you have better fulfill the law, the whole thing.

Here are some more scriptures to consider in regard to this topic, then I think I am done for now...
Circumcision was the first physical ordinance of the day. When they would refer to the ordinances in the law, they often refer to the First ordinance which is the beginning of the whole law. In for a penny, in for a pound. So, Circumcision was the symbol for the entire law.

Galatians 5:3 - For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

When they speak of Circumcision, they are referring to the entire law from the beginning, not only that one ordinance.

The principle I am teaching is founded in scripture:
[quote="Romans 2:25-29]For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/quote]
Did that make sense? Was it clear? The same logic applies to all ordinances.

Here is another one:

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

But, just as with the ancients, If you are under the law and take on the least ordinance, then you need to fulfill the entire law. Again, just make sure you keep your eye on the end of the law and follow the example and teachings of Christ which will walk you through the fulfillment of the law.

If Amonhi had just started posting about making your calling and election sure etc, he would be like anyone else on here, but when he stated that the had seen Christ, that his calling and election was made sure, that he was a member of the Church of the Firstborn, that he and his wife are part of the 144,000, he changed his status. Now, he is God's official representative to us, and part of his message is that we don't need physical ordinances.

LDS Missionaries are official representatives of the LDS Church. However, although they officially represent the church, they do not always represent the church officially. They teach from their limited understanding as best they can. I am like those missionaries. I believe everything I have presented here.
Is it perfect? No.
Is it 100% accurate in every point? No.
Does that mean that their is no Church of the Firstborn? No.
Does it mean that I don't belong to it? No.
Does it mean that I haven't seen Christ? No.
Does it mean that these blessings are not within your reach? No.
And If I were right in any particular point does that make everything else right? No.
If I were wrong in any particular point, does that make the rest of what I have said also wrong? Maybe... but not necessarily.
Take the parts you find value in. Consider the parts you wonder about. And reject the parts that you feel are wrong. But do so humbly in prayer asking God to guide you correctly.

Regardless I hope to have provided new information to consider. I hope that you are better off today than you were last week before I entered your life. This is progression. Learning always starts from where we are right now and adds a little, questions a little and rejects a little. And then when you have progressed a little further, you again add a little, question a little and reject a little.

The things I have said are not for everyone. That's ok. I appreciate you being willing to consider them. Again, let the spirit TEACH YOU ALL THINGS. Not me and not anyone. I understand that it can be scary to trust in the spirit, but this is what thousands of missionaries ask people to do every day.

[Amonhi]

Actually, my understanding of his message is different. Physical ordinances are not necessary, but are used because they are easier to witness. However God is the ultimatum here, and that is what I think he's saying. It doesn't matter what physical ordinances you have, if you are still "enduring to the end", instead of reaching the end ASAP, then you've missed the boat. And if people have received their spiritual ordinances directly from Christ then they don't need the physical copies. Please correct me if I'm wrong Amonhi.

That about sums it up. Thanks.

[Amonhi]

Excellent post tmac!
Original_Intent – Great reference to C.S.Lewis. He is a perfect example. Thanks.

7cylon7 - Is it likely that said person would be at the beginning of his life or near the end of his life when this would happen?

I would have said at the end, but this kind of thinking almost made me reject my own promise. I was pretty young, (my opinion). It took a week of strong hard study before I accepted it and got my second witness. Let the Lord decide when you are ready and how old you have to be. Put it into his hands.

7cylon7 - …that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God;

I will point out here that the second comforter is not a come and go type thing. It is like having a telepathic link with Christ & God. (That is the "take up their abode with him" part.) They can teach you things. I tell you that there is nothing more enlightening than to be taught the intricacies and workings of the Atonement from the Savior Jesus Christ himself. Only Cleon Skousen, (That I know of), has come close to what the Lord taught my wife and I personally.

Regarding the rest of your post, Great quotes! Lots of good stuff there.

Original_Intent – Another excellent post.

Reese - So to me having your C&E made sure, is not saying: "Your done. You will no longer have to prove yourself. Good job!"
Yeah, tell me about it. That is one of the great let downs! I always thought life would magically change and I would know everything and have all power and win at chess everytime, etc. But nope. Bummer huh. Still progressing at my own pace.

Regarding the rest of your post, Great post.

As I stated on the other thread, I am out of time presently. But will be back at some point. (Not that you need me.) Thank you all so much, I have greatly enjoyed our discussions

[A Random Phrase]

How do you recognize a man of God? What criteria do you measure him against?

A man of God will preach repentance. He will not preach smooth things, easy to be heard; he will speak plainly even if it upsets people. He will point to Christ, not to himself. It's in the Book of Mormon.

[awake]

How do you recognize a man of God? What criteria do you measure him against?

I believe we can judge the true righteousness of any man or leader by whether he preaches, practices, possesses and proves he has 'true Christlike unconditional everlasting love', especially for his wife. That is the surest way to identify a righteous man.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have 'love' one to another."
John 13:35

"We are however living in the "last days", a time when the scriptures say "men shall wax worse and worse; deceiving and being deceived;" in a time when it is declared, "if it is possible the very elect should be deceived." We have in our midst corrupt men, and let no man be astonished at this for "the net shall gather in of every kind, good and bad," these corrupt men circulate corrupt principles... If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine and Covenants (1835 edition), set him down as an imposter. Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches."
Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 5:490-491, April 1, 1844.

[firend]

How do you recognize a man of God? What criteria do you measure him against?

A man of God will preach repentance. He will not preach smooth things, easy to be heard; he will speak plainly even if it upsets people. He will point to Christ, not to himself. It's in the Book of Mormon.

+1

and it won't take long and people will become angry with him. In fact every true prophet has an amazing amount of anger thrown at them because they greatly disturb the devil's plans. I also by sheer mathematics principles believe if a true prophet came on here, mark the time and it won't be long till people are stirred up to anger because only the "few" will hear.

[firend]

Amonhi,

just curious if you are part of the Ross Lebaron- Collier-Black-Green crowd?

[A Random Phrase]

and it won't take long and people will become angry with him. In fact every true prophet has an amazing amount of anger thrown at them because they greatly disturb the devil's plans. I also by sheer mathematics principles believe if a true prophet came on here, mark the time and it won't be long till people are stirred up to anger because only the "few" will hear.

Amen, brother. It's incredible how much anger people can throw at true prophets. Look at Samuel (the Lamanite) for example. They wanted to kill him and all he was doing was talking. He wasn't really threatening them if they were as good as they apparently thought they were. And in the time of Christ. It's in every dispensation.

[Helaman2000]

This is my interpretation of Amonhi's message, which is a conclusion that I had already come to based on my own searching and studies -- and it is that if you live in say China, North Korea, Outer Mongolia, India, the Jungles of Africa or the Amazon -- anywhere where millions of people live, who will probably never have an opportunity to have missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints come to your door, and will never have a chance to receive and read a Book of Mormon, but if -- for whatever reason -- like Joseph Smith (just for one example), you kneel down before your Maker, in utmost humility and faith, seeking to know and to do what your Maker would have you do, as the myriad of examples from the Scriptures clearly demonstrate, God's options for reaching out to such people are not limited by "official" channels, etc., etc., etc. Such a person could be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ by heavenly messengers, the Holy Ghost and/or Christ himself (all of which there are a myriad examples of in the scriptures) and receive all necessary ordinances, spiritual, physical and otherwise by whatever means the Lord deems appropriate under the circumstances, and become a member of the Church of the Firstborn without ever even having access to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and all the "official" channels and records, etc.

I think that in making such concessions, that there can be people in isolated instances, such as the father of Abish in the book of Mormon, we need to be wary and skeptical, so as to not taking them to the extreme, which is, simply, that individuals that seek to create their own groups and claim their own authority in whatever way will always use this phenomenon to recruit people into said groups. Furthermore, by pointing out flaws in the institutional Church, these types can set themselves up as alternative dispensers of salvation, or that perhaps they can "put in a good word" for their associates to the Lord in their behalf, or some such thing. Remember, a certain person used to be my home teaching companion 11 years ago, who claimed to be a dispenser of truth outside the institutional Church:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/firstbornchurch.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, in all seriousness, what is the difference between Terrill and any of these other claimants to "Second-Comforter micro-dispensationalism," for lack of a better term, aside from the fact that he is going to prison?

Ed