Church of the Firstborn

[Steve Clark]

After saying this, I will admit that most of the people I know who have received the promise and are members of the Church of the Firstborn have gone through the entire LDS system, include my wife and I. However, we are also aware of some who have not been LDS who have received the same.

I am very uncomfortable with this declaration amonhi. Based on my reading and study the temple is an integral and necessary part of receiving this promise and becoming a member of the Church of the Firstborn. Unless someone has received all the blessings of the house of the Lord I do not feel it would be feasible or practical for those who have not experienced this blessing to have these higher ordinances and blessings bestowed upon them.

From Doctrines of Salvation 2:42 it states "The Lord has made it possible for all of us to become members of the Church of the Firstborn, by receiving the blessings of the house of the Lord and overcoming all things... they seal upon us the keys and powers which, through obedience, entitle us to become sons and daughters and members of the Church of the Firstborn, receiving all things in the Kingdom. This is what we get IN THE TEMPLE, so that we become members of the family, sons and daughters of God, not servants."

I tend to agree with you, Mark. I am open to the possibility of receiving the promise without going through the church system, but that is a new concept for me. I will point out that the above quote doesn't sound exclusive to me. It says that we get these keys and powers in the temple, but doesn't say we can't get them from God/angels directly. These blessings have been available to anyone from any age of the earth and are contingent only on our diligence in seeking the Lord. Certainly there has been a pattern of people in the past who were recipients of these powers and keys outside of an organization. I don't see why God wouldn't be able to continue that now.

Certainly the mission of the church is to invite us to Christ and show the path to Him. I still see it as possible for that invitation and path to be granted directly from on high if a person is diligently seeking salvation.

[ATL Wake]

Let compromise and say that both are needed.

I think what you may be missing is that under Amonhi's explanation all those who receive their C&E WILL fulfill both. EVERYONE will have the physical ordinances done. Whether they do it themselves or whether someone else does it for them later, EVERYONE's physical ordinances WILL be done.

God has shown that time is of little importance to Him. Joseph (and other prophets) have received the Second Comforter before physical ordinances were done. Joseph received his C&E before the sealing powers were restored.

It is my understanding that all things must be fulfilled, but not necessarily in a linear order that we teach and understand.

If you are focusing on the physical ordinances of the temple then you are missing the point. What I interpret from Amonhi (and please clarify if I am wrong) is that those who obey the inner voice within them, sacrifice and put off the natural man, who live the teachings of the gospel, become virtuous, and consecrate themselves are actually spiritually receiving/living the ordinances whether or not they participate in the temple or not. They are fulfilling the ordinances spiritually thus worthy of the accompanying blessings.

Such people, regardless of whether they are members of the LDS church NOW, can receive spiritual blessings from God. That is not to say the physical ordinances are not important. They WILL receive them. But they are LIVING them now.

Again, Amonhi, correct me if I'm wrong, or fill in what I missed.

[Steve Clark]

In short, since I don't have the time right now. I find your logic flawed. I see many good points, however, the main thing I see as a problem is that your theory leave open the ability to apostizise. Your logic lead to the saying that I don't need the prophets or the apostels because I can get it straight from god. In fact, Max Skousen said the exact same thing you have in a long detailed book, which eventually got him excommunicated. hmmmm sounds seriouse to me. Can an excommunicated person get his calling and election made sure from god when his anointed servants authorized by god to act in his name does this?

There are many flaws in the stated theory above. First I agree with 90% of what was stated. The best being that any ordinace (baptism) is dead without the person really being converted. Being baptized just to marry a BYU co-ed, which I know has been done many times and even going to the temple to get married because the women says that is the only way I will be married. If a guy really loves her and not the church then what is he going to do? I have heard of a guy doing this. Doing all those things then got married and then a few years later was completely inactive. He only did it to marry the one he loved, he had no real testimony of Christ. So for this man the works are dead. Yet you say all these ordinances are not needed if you only have the spirit with you and you are accepted by god. The house of the lord is not confusion. Your theory brings tons an tons of confusion into the mix. The Lord has a house of order. D&C. Things are to be done in its proper time and place. In fact, Joseph Smith and OLiver had to be rebaptized because they did not record it the first time they were baptized. They had to do it again and record it on the church records. Does not mean the first one was not good, but the Lord has a way and a process that HE wants followed. HE, in this last day, has told us what he wants done and how he wants it to be done.

Yes, the physical alone is dead but without it, ye are damned. Even with the spirit with you.

To keep it short, too late, you need both, and I agree the spiritual side is much more important than the physical side yet, if you leave the simple and easy physical side out you can not enter heaven or have your calling and election made sure. IT goes against all things God had taught his children. Oh He may make someone calling sure but guess what, he will have to be baptized and do all the temple work for himself or someone will have to do it for him. There is no getting around those requirements.

Let compromise and say that both are needed.

Good points, cylon, and definitely worth considering. I do differ my belief in regards to the necessity of being in good standings with the church organization to have exaltation. It is probable and likely that Max Skousen apostatized from both the church and the Gospel as he is accused, but even if that is the case it doesn't make everyone who is ex'ed automatically under damnation. I know of one person, Helmuth Hübener who was unrighteously excommunicated for doing right.

If one does receive their C&E, isn't it possible to be excommunicated and still retain the promise? As far as I know, there is only 1 thing that disqualifies an individual once the promise is granted, and it isn't based on your standing with the church. The leaders of the church are great men, but they make mistakes, too.

This position isn't to negate the calling of the prophets, but hasn't the Lord stated that He is the Gatekeeper and employs no servant there?

2 Ne 9:41 Behold, the way for man is [c]narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the [d]gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

I believe prophets and apostles show the path and provide witnesses to the Savior, but to say that you have to go through them to get to Christ is a bold position to take. He is our advocate with the Father and He is the Savior. He is the author and finisher of man's salvation. Nobody else can lay claim to those titles or positions. I believe He is openly accessible to ALL of God's children directly.

If baptism IS required from absolutely everyone except children, how does Mormon's teaching about those who are without the law make sense?

Moroni 8:22 For behold that all little children are [a]alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of [c]redemption cometh on all them that have [d]no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

To me it reads that there exist individuals for whom baptism avails nothing. How do you interpret this?

[sonofliberty]

Let compromise and say that both are needed.

I think what you may be missing is that under Amonhi's explanation all those who receive their C&E WILL fulfill both. EVERYONE will have the physical ordinances done. Whether they do it themselves or whether someone else does it for them later, EVERYONE's physical ordinances WILL be done.

God has shown that time is of little importance to Him. Joseph (and other prophets) have received the Second Comforter before physical ordinances were done. Joseph received his C&E before the sealing powers were restored.

It is my understanding that all things must be fulfilled, but not necessarily in a linear order that we teach and understand.

If you are focusing on the physical ordinances of the temple then you are missing the point. What I interpret from Amonhi (and please clarify if I am wrong) is that those who obey the inner voice within them, sacrifice and put off the natural man, who live the teachings of the gospel, become virtuous, and consecrate themselves are actually spiritually receiving/living the ordinances whether or not they participate in the temple or not. They are fulfilling the ordinances spiritually thus worthy of the accompanying blessings.

Such people, regardless of whether they are members of the LDS church NOW, can receive spiritual blessings from God. That is not to say the physical ordinances are not important. They WILL receive them. But they are LIVING them now.

Again, Amonhi, correct me if I'm wrong, or fill in what I missed.

+1 Very good explanation and makes sense. Thanks for clarifying ATL!

[ATL Wake]

I enjoy running and wakeboarding. I have competed in both. I try to improve in both. One of the best ways to improve is to seek the advice of how other runners and wakeboarders progressed. If they have more skill or success than I, I value their opinions more.

Some people when they hear advice/counsel that is new to them doubt it, or argue that their own view is superior. When I doubt the advice of a runner who can finish a marathon in under 3 hours and has run 10 marathons, when I have never run one, who is more likely to have correct information? If I doubt the advice of Michael Jordan when I am trying to be a better basketball player, what does that say about myself?

Why do people doubt the advice of the successful? Is it resentment they others have succeeded where you have failed? Is your doubt a substitute for your excuses for you own failure? You have failed, you have not succeeded, why not find out the cause of your failure from one who has succeeded?

Amonhi has claimed to have had his calling and election made sure and associates with other who similarly have. That makes him very successful in attaining a goal many of us are seeking (I would hope).

This is either true, or it is not.

If it is true, his knowledge and understanding of the Church of the Firstborn is better than yours (not being a member). It would probably do well to understand him and adjust YOUR paradigm.

Or it is not true. Ask God to find out. By your fruits ye shall know them. I've only seen good fruits. I've only been encouraged to seek God more. Moroni 7:12-13

But there is little to be gained by contending over what he says.

[ATL Wake]

If one does receive their C&E, isn't it possible to be excommunicated and still retain the promise? As far as I know, there is only 1 thing that disqualifies an individual once the promise is granted, and it isn't based on your standing with the church. The leaders of the church are great men, but they make mistakes, too.

All ordinances must be ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise including excommunication.

If a leader errs and unjustly exommunicates someone. The Holy Spirit of Promise need not ratify it. One's standing between themselves and God cannot be deterred by man--unless we let it.

[Rand]

ATL said, "If you are focusing on the physical ordinances of the temple then you are missing the point. What I interpret from Amonhi (and please clarify if I am wrong) is that those who obey the inner voice within them, sacrifice and put off the natural man, who live the teachings of the gospel, become virtuous, and consecrate themselves are actually spiritually receiving/living the ordinances whether or not they participate in the temple or not. They are fulfilling the ordinances spiritually thus worthy of the accompanying blessings. "

Christ said, "I am the way", what Amonhi is saying is that there is another way. It is subtle, but it is there. He said that he and his fiance were sealed before they were married in the Temple and sealed, and that they went ahead with the ordinance as a matter of protocol and not to stir up dust. (badly paraphrased, but it is the meaning as I gathered it.)
If Christ is "the way", and he has established this church to proclaim and provide access to the Gospel, and he is a God of order and not of confusion, then there is a problem.

Why would Christ establish the Gospel pattern as manifest in the Temple, if it was not really needed? It makes no sense at all. It is inconsistent, and God is not inconsistent.
There are times, ie. John the Baptist, etc when exceptions happen. They are administrative exceptions and for good reason. When we seek to become one of those exceptions and to make them apply to daily situations, we are in muddy and dangerous water. Amonhi has glossed over the exceptions, not explained them well, just justified them. Not good enough. I will bow out of this conversation now. There is no need for more input. Count me as one who is not going to drink the kool-aid.

Oh, and ATL, I hear you on advice from an expert, but there are non experts who will give expert advice that can kill you, if you are not careful. My eternal salvation is one definite situation in which I will not follow inexpert advice.

[sbsion]

our bodies are THE temple, let it manifest.....the one on the "hill" is a "textbook" of self discovery IF it's needed, and certainly telstials need ALL the help they can get?

[ATL Wake]

Christ said, "I am the way", what Amonhi is saying is that there is another way.

I don't see Amonhi as teaching there is another way.

When Christ said He is the way, He was talking about DOING what He taught and BECOMING like Him.

The ordinances POINT the way, they SYMBOLIZE Christ, but the physical ordinance are not the way and they are not Christ. They are good for us to remember what we must do. But if we live like Christ without the need of the symbols, we don't really need them.

Jacob said that the Jews were blinded because they looked beyond the mark. What does that mean? They were SOOOOO focused on the ordinances, they didn't live the principles. They had SOOO many rituals that pointed to Christ yet they did not see Him among them. Don't get so bogged down with rituals that you don't see what they are to be teaching you. If you can learn the lessons without the rituals, GREAT!!! It's the lessons that are important, it is what you BECOME that is important. God didn't put us here to jump through hoops, he put us here to BECOME like him. The hoops help us become like Him, but look beyond the hoops. The hoops aren't the goal.

I am so confused. Amonhi is not saying, don't be baptized, don't go through the temple. You have all been through the temple, you have all been baptized. Amonhi is not suggesting you do away with these things, he is saying MOVE ON. You can. God is waiting for you. He's endlessly patient, but he's waiting for YOU.

[Amonhi]

Who are those "under the Law" and who are those who are not "under the law"? I think all men have a conscience and know right from wrong.

That doesn't change after you get your C&E and receive the promise. You still have a conscience and yet the law is removed. Do you agree that the law is removed at some point? Do you believe that God is under the same law we are?

You do make a good point with the difference of the ordinance being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is a complete ordinance, but I am not able to agree with you on the lack of need for the ordinances, except to children, and to those few who are not under the law, which is those, I believe who are not capable of knowing, or the mentally handicapped or like people who cannot know fully what they are doing. You seem to believe that there are others than these that do not require the ordinances of salvation.

If in the Millennium children will be raised without sin unto salvation, do they need repentance, baptism and the remission of sins? Would it be a mockery to God to teach them these things and require baptism when they didn't need it?

The 4th article of faith states quite plainly as do many other scriptures, that baptism is essential in the Gospel plan. Yet, you are claiming that there are "some" who do not need that. I disagree, with the above exception, can you clarify if there are any that do not need it outside of those I mentioned above? Are you claiming there is another Gospel?

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Preparatory Gospel, (Faith Repentance, Baptism and the carnal law) followed with the promise that the Father will send the Holy Ghost.

Christ said,

And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. - 3 Nephi 11:40

How can he say that when we have sooo many doctrines outside of and beyond this? These are the doctrines of Christ. Remember that Christ came to save the sinners who were under the law. His entire mission, role and even the atonement itself was performed under the Aaronic Priesthood. Now this is so much the case that Christ never gave anyone the Holy Ghost which was the first ordinance of the Mel. Priesthood. So, Christ's entire mission was under the Aaronic Priesthood.

Christ’s mission was to show people how to get out of the physical law by fulfilling it. It is fulfilled when it has finally shown us he spiritual. This is why Christ used the physical symbols to point to the spiritual reality.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” – Matt. 5:27-28

Anyway, there are 2 Gospels. The "Preparatory Gospel" and the "Everlasting Gospel". Christ's gospel was the Preparatory with the promise that if you fulfilled the preparatory gospel God, His Father, would send you the Holy Ghost which would teach you all things and thereby lead you into the fullness of the "Everlasting Gospel".

The Everlasting Gospel is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can do some quick searches on the lds.org/scriptues site for the 2 gospels which will be very enlightening.

In line with my role, I administer the Everlasting Gospel, (D&C 77:11) Do you believe in an Everlasting Gospel which is different from the Preparatory Gospel?

[reese]

ATL said, "If you are focusing on the physical ordinances of the temple then you are missing the point. What I interpret from Amonhi (and please clarify if I am wrong) is that those who obey the inner voice within them, sacrifice and put off the natural man, who live the teachings of the gospel, become virtuous, and consecrate themselves are actually spiritually receiving/living the ordinances whether or not they participate in the temple or not. They are fulfilling the ordinances spiritually thus worthy of the accompanying blessings. "

Christ said, "I am the way", what Amonhi is saying is that there is another way. It is subtle, but it is there. Where exactly? It seems to me that he is putting the focus back on Christ, saying it is between you and him. He said that he and his fiance were sealed before they were married in the Temple and sealed, and that they went ahead with the ordinance as a matter of protocol and not to stir up dust. (badly paraphrased, but it is the meaning as I gathered it.)
If Christ is "the way", and he has established this church to proclaim and provide access to the Gospel, and he is a God of order and not of confusion, then there is a problem.

Why would Christ establish the Gospel pattern as manifest in the Temple, if it was not really needed? It makes no sense at all. It is inconsistent, and God is not inconsistent. It is needed, because we need it. We are just like the children of Israel. We require a lot of rules to obey so we can guage where we are, and judge others as well. If we were all willing to do it the way Amonhi is suggesting, then there would be no need for this church. We would have the church of the firstborn and we would all be living in Zion. The reason it is not like that is because we are unwilling to do what it takes, and that makes us just like the children of Israel. Which is why the Lord put it in D&C 84 to begin with.
There are times, ie. John the Baptist, etc when exceptions happen. They are administrative exceptions and for good reason.You can call them administative exceptions, but it does not change a profound truth. According to D&C84, the higher priesthood is needed to see the face of God and live. J.S. was able to see the face of God, and live, without being ordained to any priesthood. Clearly he held the priesthood already. So why can no one else already hold the priesthood from before the foundations of the earth, as Alma teaches? It does not create confusion. We create confusion, hense the need for a clear set of rules to follow. Any group of people who are worthy to live in Zion are not going to be living in confusion, they will be living in harmony because the Lord will be guiding each one individually. When we seek to become one of those exceptions and to make them apply to daily situations, we are in muddy and dangerous water. Amonhi has glossed over the exceptions, not explained them well, just justified them. Not good enough. I will bow out of this conversation now. There is no need for more input. Count me as one who is not going to drink the kool-aid.

Oh, and ATL, I hear you on advice from an expert, but there are non experts who will give expert advice that can kill you, if you are not careful. This is a knives edge. If someone wants to walk this path back to God, they are taking a risk. The closer you get to the Lord the greater your fall will be if you fail. There is no way around this. Which is why the Lord said:

27 And whosoever doth not bear his across, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.b

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 And this he said signifying there should not any man follow him, unless he was able to continue, Saying this man began to build, and was not able to finish.

My eternal salvation is one definite situation in which I will not follow inexpert advice.

[Original_Intent]

Exactly Reese; although it may be simple, it is certainly not something to pursue lightly.

[Amonhi]

So to clarify, when you talk about the Church of the Firstborn, are you talking about the group down there in Manti associated with the Ezekiel group and Sterling Allen? Or something more abstract?

LOL, good question. No, the church of the Firstborn is not a physical church or group. It doesn't have leadership and all lines of authority are 1 step to God. This was the reason the D&C was given as stated in the Introduction chapter.

18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;
That faith also might increase in the earth;
That mine everlasting acovenant might be established; - D&C 1:18-22

Every member of the CoF has a direct connection with God, and angels and doesn't need middle men. (This process is learned.)

When men organize, they have regular meetings, Top down or bottom up leadership, processes & Protocols all of which results in the hands of men creating, building and directing a particular work. The CoF is not organized by the hands of men, but by the spirit, angels or even Christ. This is the rock cut without the hands of men. 2 people may receive different instructions which in the end result in unorganized yet collaborative work. For example, see Alma 10:7-10.

[Amonhi]

I apologize for not responding sooner, I have been very busy lately and expect that will continue for a while. I will respond as time permits...

In short, since I don't have the time right now. I find your logic flawed. I see many good points, however, the main thing I see as a problem is that your theory leave open the ability to apostizise. Your logic lead to the saying that I don't need the prophets or the apostels because I can get it straight from god.

hehe, I love that topic! Thanks for bringing it up! But I think we should have it in another thread...So I'll start it by copying your statement.

Yes, the physical alone is dead but without it, ye are damned. Even with the spirit with you.

Are you saying that Jesus Christ who received the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands will have his work done vicariously?

Are you perhaps also saying that the apostles in the old testament did not receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost because they never received it by the laying on of hands? (How did they receive it? See Acts 2. It is never in question again.

Funny, come to think of it, the Disciples in the Book of Mormon received the Holy Ghost the same way as recorded in 3 Nephi 19:13. But because the never recieved it by the laying on of hands either, perhaps you suppose they will at some future time receive it vicariously as works for the dead?

This is kind of like Nephi didn't really get the sealing power because he didn't get it via the laying on of hands by someone else who already had it. So, it wasn't valid and he will have the work done later even though he already had the full blessing of power while living. (see Hel. 10, the whole chapter)

I think if I can get some time, I'll start a thread to list the many scriptures and other examples of people receiving the blessings without the physical ordinances. Could be enlightened.

Let compromise and say that both are needed.

We could, but it doesn't make it so.

I wanted to give a little history lesson before going forward. This discussion has happened before, in fact 2 times in scripture and it has caused some very heated debates..

First time was when Christ was born. Some of the believing Nephites who understood that the law was only a type and shadow of things to come as well as the spiritual, thought that because of the sign they received that Christ had been born the law was fulfilled and no longer needed. Here is the story:

And it came to pass that Nephi went forth among the people, and also many others, baptizing unto repentance, in the which there was a great remission of sins.

And thus the people began again to have peace in the land.And there were no contentions, save it were a few that began to preach, endeavoring to prove by the scriptures that it was no more expedient to observe the law of Moses. Now in this thing they did err, having not understood the scriptures.

But it came to pass that they soon became converted, and were convinced of the error which they were in, for it was made known unto them that the law was not yet fulfilled, and that it must be fulfilled in every whit; yea, the word came unto them that it must be fulfilled; yea, that one jot or tittle should not pass away till it should all be fulfilled; therefore in this same year were they brought to a knowledge of their error and did confess their faults. - 3 Ne. 1:24-25

Makes sense, they were correct, but jumping the gun by about 30 years. The second time it came up was after Christ had died. The apostles had been preaching to the Jews who already believed in the law of Moses and baptism. So teaching them the end of the law made sense and they had already been prepared (repentance, baptism, remission of sins, law of carnal commandments), so getting the Holy Ghost made sense.

There were 2 ways people could receive the Holy Ghost. The first way was directly from God as the apostles had received it. The other way was by the laying on of hands.

We will start where the problem first came up. Up until now, the Holy Ghost had not been received by anyone except those who had been baptized…

Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

But things were about to change…

While teaching the Gentiles, Peter saw that they receive the Gift of Holy Ghost before they were baptized. And he used this point to convince the those who were under the law of Moses that God approved then so why shouldn’t we, and while we are at it, let’s bring them under the law through baptism. (Didn’t really think it through at this point, but we will see that he does later…

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

These were not required to have the Holy Ghost given by the laying on of hands because they had received it the same way the apostles had received it, without a physical ordinance. But I accept here that Peter told them to be baptized. In fact he didn’t even question whether or not they needed to be baptized. They didn’t need it because baptism is part of the preparatory gospel/law of Moses which is meant to prepare you for the Holy Ghost. Having received the Holy Ghost, they must have been already prepared for it and didn’t need the preparatory Gospel. But, he didn’t realize this until later…

When he was questioned about preaching to the Gentiles, Peter tells of a dream in which he was told, “But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.” – Acts 11:9 So the work continues to progresses to the Gentiles who were not already under the Law of Moses. This is when they realize the contradiction between the preparatory gospel and the reception of the Holy Ghost which brings the higher law. If you receive the higher then do you need to go backward and receive the lower? The account is contained in Acts 15 as follows:

Here we find Paul and Barnabas contending with some who were circumcised saying,

“Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” – Act 15:1

Well, that was correct doctrine before, under the Law of Moses, but they weren’t sure whether it applied now. Remember, until they taught the gentiles this didn’t really come up because everyone they taught was under the Law of Moses and had had the preparatory ordinances.

So, being unsure, they took the matter to Church Headquarters in Jerusalem. When they brought up the matter the converted Pharisees took issue with it. (This is the camp you are coming from saying that everyone must do the dead works whether they need it or not.)

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Now, Christ, who leads the church, was enjoying his throne in heaven and didn’t bother to step in and tell them what to do about this doctrine. So they began much disputing until Peter was inspired with a logical solution to the question.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

So, Using Peter’s own logic, if God gives someone the Holy Ghost, (and the higher law with it), without the laying on of hands, why then would we tempt God to put the yoke upon their neck of the Preparatory Gospel of Faith, repentance, baptism and the remission of sins to be worthy of the Holy Ghost?

Even further, if God gives someone their C&E thereby declaring they are worthy of a Celestial inheritance, why then would we tempt God to put them under laws and covenants which are intended to help them become worthy of the Celestial Kingdom?

Further, If God gives the promise of exaltation and then someone gives that person the Law and ordinances of the law afterwards, can the law if broken make the promise of no effect?

“The law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.” – Gal. 3:17-18

All spiritual Ordinances are Sealed/Promised by the Holy Spirit of promise!!! So, if you are playing cards and you pit a Promise card against an Ordinance card or a Law card, or any other requirement card you can think of, (the ONLY exception being a Son of Perdition card), the Promise card wins, every time…

[Gideon]

Notice that Christ needed to be baptized, it wasn't optional for Him, and it is not optional for us either.

This is a good point and it is correct, but it was only correct for that audience, not for everyone... He is speaking of course to "them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken Law".

Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law. - Moroni 8:24

Christ specifically came to "those who are under the curse of the broken law" not to the world/gentiles.

Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? - Alma 42:17

Jesus said,

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. - Luke 5:31-32

Remember that the Law was given because of transgression?

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;" - Gal. 3:19

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," - 1 Tim. 1:9

The law was not given to the righteous. The righteous don't need it. Not everyone is a craw dad sitting in the sandy hole. Those who are under the law can sin and be condemned. Those who are not under the law cannot sin and are not condemned. The savior came to save those who were under the law. How did he do this? He taught them, but more importantly he condescended to their level by putting himself under the law also and then showed them how to get out from under the law by doing it himself.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: - Gal. 3:13

Those who are under the law should follow their Savior and do as he did and they will find the path that takes them out from under the law.

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." - Gal 3:23-25

When we come out from under the law, we can no longer sin. And we don't need a law to keep us in line because we can keep ourselves in line.

The law was not given to everyone. There are little children and there are those who are not under the law. You can become one of those who are not under the law by fulfilling the law and coming to the promise, (Calling and Election Made Sure). Or you might be like the those who are raised without sin unto salvation during the Millennium.

With respect to the Millennium, the Lord has given this information regarding the parents who will live in that society:

“And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.” (D&C 45:58.)

Obviously, the parents who will inherit the earth will be those who have learned to raise their children without sin unto salvation. - Oct. 1991 General Conference, “Bring Up Your Children in Light and Truth” by H. VERLAN ANDERSEN

There are those today who have likewise been raised free of the law and free of the curse and free of sin. Having never sinned, Baptism, repentance and the entirety of the lower law availeth them nothing. To expect them to be baptized is a mockery to God and putting trust in dead works.

For behold that all little children are aalive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works. - Moroni 8:22-23

Remember how the law was "added"... In the case of the Children of Israel, it was added, (according to Gal. 3:17), 430 years after Abraham received his promise for himself and his posterity who were "Born under the covenant". (I understand that the 430 years is not correct, but it makes the point.)

So then, if the promise is given and then a law is given, can the law break the promise making if void?

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. ...the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. - Gal. 3:16-18

This law is the Law of Moses or the physical law, D&C 84:25-27 which was given to the people who could not see the face of God. BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT BEHOLD THE FACE OF GOD, THE LOWER LAW WAS GIVEN...

Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of fcarnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.

This is the SAME law that the LDS Church is under right now and it was GIVEN for the same reason, and when the Membership of the Church can behold the face of God then His wrath will be taken away and we will be living the higher law which is written on our hearts rather than on cold hard stone. Until that time, the LDS Church will perform physical ordinances for the same reasons that the Children of Israel did. The church will continue to teach,

The Preparatory Gospel, which gospel is the gospel of

• repentance
• baptism
• remission of sins
• the law of Carnal Commandments (the same one you are sinning against which requires repentance and baptism and remission of sins...)

All of which are administered by the Aaronic Priesthood. It will also teach that there is a higher law and encourage people to seek it and understand it via the ordinances of the Mel. Priesthood which are also symbols which point to the spiritual but of themselves are not the spiritual.

The physical law does nothing but points to the spiritual law. The spiritual law is written on our hearts, it is amendable to circumstances, it relies on natural consequences and is the law by which God and all the hosts of heaven are governed. The natural consequences are as certain as gravity. You cannot sin against gravity. You cannot break the natural law, only you are subject to the results of the natural law. This is the higher law. You are under it when you are under the lower law too, but it is subtle whereas the lower law is not.

We need to do things according to His law, not ours.

You are correct Gideon. But his law is the natural law and he has given fallen man the Preparatory Gospel and it law of "Carnel Commandments" which you are referring to. So, if you are speaking about the lower law, to sinners and those who like yourself are under the Lower law, then yes, they need to go through the spiritual process to get out from under the law, as I stated before. But, the physical still does nothing and a person can get out of the lower law without the symbols and sign posts if they can accept the spiritual ordinances and don't "mock God" by "putting trust" in the physical ones.

This is too long and difficult to edit, so I will just make a few points here:

The doctrine of Christ applies to all, and all are required to repent and be baptized:
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
(3 Nephi 11:31–34‎)‎

Neither the Law of Moses, nor anything like unto it, applies to the LDS church. The ordinances were not given as a punishment because people are not living up to their privileges. Indeed, some of the ordinances were given prior to the organization of the church. Ordinances are not dead works and have nothing to do with carnal commandments.

Every member of the church is able to see God if they are willing to pay the price. Unlike ancient Israel, we still have both the Melchizedek priesthood and the sealing power.

No one is growing up without sin today. No one except those who are not accountable.
3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.
( Mosiah 16:3‎)‎

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Romans 3:23‎)‎


The point where we agree is that the receipt of an ordinance does not change a person. That has to happen within. We all need to be born again and experience the Mighty Change of Heart. Part of this process is to have a remission of sin, and that comes after baptism.

[Amonhi]

No one is growing up without sin today.

You you believe that at some future time people will? Will those people also need to be taught baptism, repentance, the remission of sins?

[Gideon]

No one is growing up without sin today.

You you believe that at some future time people will? Will those people also need to be taught baptism, repentance, the remission of sins?

Yes, after the Earth becomes Terrestrial again. The scriptures tell us that.

[Amonhi]

No one is growing up without sin today.

You you believe that at some future time people will? Will those people also need to be taught baptism, repentance, the remission of sins?

Yes, after the Earth becomes Terrestrial again. The scriptures tell us that.

Will these people who are raised without sin to salvation need to be taught repentance from sin, Baptism for the remission of sin?

[Gideon]

Will these people who are raised without sin to salvation need to be taught repentance from sin, Baptism for the remission of sin?

I don't know, and it doesn't matter to me because I live in a Telestial world and they will live in a Terrestrial world. Apples and oranges.

Concerning our Telestial existence, the scriptures record:

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.
(Moses 6:55–56‎)‎

From these verses it seems that growing up in sin is part the Lord's plan, for the present.

[Amonhi]

Will these people who are raised without sin to salvation need to be taught repentance from sin, Baptism for the remission of sin?

I don't know, and it doesn't matter to me because I live in a Telestial world and they will live in a Terrestrial world. Apples and oranges.

Good points. I agree that much of the discussion regarding "Those who are not under the Law" has no present application for most people, including yourself as you are under the law and must proceed according to the dictates of scripture which apply to "Those under the law". And so, it is perhaps unimportant as long as you receive all the physical ordinances, AND GET THEM SEALED by the Holy Spirit of Promise thereby being certain that you have received the spiritual ones they point to, you will not be found wanting. I think we all agree on this.

Concerning our Telestial existence, the scriptures record:

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.
(Moses 6:55–56‎)‎

If a person has been redeemed from the fall and brought back into the Presence of the Lord, (Second Comforter), and they have children, do you think those children are conceived in Sin, or do you think they might be born under the covenant? Would you think that this topic would be more important to a person at that time?

[pritchet1]

I worship in the Church of the Firstborn many days of the week, however it is closed on Sundays and on General Conference weekends.

The Church of the Firstborn is the Temple.

[Kingdom of ZION]

The Church of the Firstborn is very simply those who have or will be born into the Morning of the First Resurrection, they are members of the Church of the Firstborn... Light bears or Sons of the Morning... Just Men... and if they have come down again here into this creation, they are 'Fourth Estate Beings'... 'Just Men made perfect'... and are beings who have their 'Calling and Election'... who are still members of the Church of the Firstborn, and if they live worthy, they may have fellowship with other members of the Church of the Firstborns, in heaven. Joseph Smith was such a man. I have personally known many others who are members.

Shalom

[Gideon]

If a person has been redeemed from the fall and brought back into the Presence of the Lord, (Second Comforter), and they have children, do you think those children are conceived in Sin, or do you think they might be born under the covenant? Would you think that this topic would be more important to a person at that time?

How can someone who is raised under Telestial conditions escape sin, regardless of how great their parents are? Heavenly Father raisied His children under Celestial conditions and He still lost one third. The righteousness of the parents is the result of agency, not DNA, therefore it isn't inherited.

All who need to be tested, will be tested. And if those born during the Millennium do not need the opposition that we face today, that is because of prior progress. Those born into the Telestial World are here for a reason.

So, to answer your question, with my current understanding of things, I say no, the subject wont be any more important to a couple who have the promise of exaltation than to one that does not.

[Amonhi]

How can someone who is raised under Telestial conditions escape sin, regardless of how great their parents are? Heavenly Father raisied His children under Celestial conditions and He still lost one third. The righteousness of the parents is the result of agency, not DNA, therefore it isn't inherited.

Actually DNA does have something to do with it, but I don't need to or want to go into that here and now. Your right, heavenly Father lost a third because of agency. I do not suppose that children raised in the higher law/in the millennium will have no agency and some may choose other paths. It is conceivable. However, remember that when God's children chose the other path in the Pre-mortal world, they became Sons of Perdition. So to Children who are raised without sin unto salvation will have the option to become sons of perdition. This does not Change the fact that it is possible to raise children without the law and so without sin to salvation.

All who need to be tested, will be tested. And if those born during the Millennium do not need the opposition that we face today, that is because of prior progress. Those born into the Telestial World are here for a reason.

How we raise our children has much to do with it. Not everything, but much. There will be plenty of testing and progression in the Millennium. Those children will not have a golden ticket to avoiding problems, but they will be more capable of handling those problems correctly.

All of the physical carnal laws and commandments are signposts and symbols pointing to Charity. They attempt to force people to mimic love, but do not produce love. In fact contrary to Love, they produce greater SELFISHNESS, and the need for more laws. Consider an actual example of what I am talking about... Quoting another C&E'r I know from another Forum - Seeker:

In raising our children we wanted love to be their highest focus. So we incorporated a number of inspired principles which the common parrent doesn't. In the case of our oldest daughter, if she hit someone or hurt someone at a young age, rather than bringing down the hard law of punishment and focusing on the her for hitting, we focused on the one she hurt and poured out sympathy, love and compassion entirely ignoring her action of hitting the person. She saw us making things right and how to treat others. Compassion in action. When the other person was "OK", then we simply when on with our business not bringing any attention to our young daughter.

We were over joyed when we began to see the fruits of our labors! At 4 years old, she was playing with 2 of her cousins. One of her cousins got hurt, (nothing major, just bonked her head). The other Cousin immediately jumped up and ran to his parents yelling "I didn't do it! I didn't do it!" in an effort to circumvent any punishment he might receive being under the law. We all looked to see what was happening and there was my daughter comforting her cousin, helping her, and loving on her without a thought for her own well being. My wife and I were overjoyed with this simple success and greatfull to see the stark contrast between those who are raised under the law and those who aren't.

Now, as you said, you don't need to worry about these things as you are not there yet. You and your children will be/are raised under the law. Just see to it that you and they fulfill the law and it will be well with you & them.

[reese]

All of the physical carnal laws and commandments are signposts and symbols pointing to Charity. They attempt to force people to mimic love, but do not produce love. In fact contrary to Love, they produce greater SELFISHNESS, and the need for more laws. Consider an actual example of what I am talking about... Quoting another C&E'r I know from another Forum - Seeker:

In raising our children we wanted love to be their highest focus. So we incorporated a number of inspired principles which the common parrent doesn't. In the case of our oldest daughter, if she hit someone or hurt someone at a young age, rather than bringing down the hard law of punishment and focusing on the her for hitting, we focused on the one she hurt and poured out sympathy, love and compassion entirely ignoring her action of hitting the person. She saw us making things right and how to treat others. Compassion in action. When the other person was "OK", then we simply when on with our business not bringing any attention to our young daughter.

We were over joyed when we began to see the fruits of our labors! At 4 years old, she was playing with 2 of her cousins. One of her cousins got hurt, (nothing major, just bonked her head). The other Cousin immediately jumped up and ran to his parents yelling "I didn't do it! I didn't do it!" in an effort to circumvent any punishment he might receive being under the law. We all looked to see what was happening and there was my daughter comforting her cousin, helping her, and loving on her without a thought for her own well being. My wife and I were overjoyed with this simple success and greatfull to see the stark contrast between those who are raised under the law and those who aren't.

Now, as you said, you don't need to worry about these things as you are not there yet. You and your children will be/are raised under the law. Just see to it that you and they fulfill the law and it will be well with you & them.

Amonhi, thankyou for posting this. I have a 5 and 8 year old that are driving me CRAZY. I am dreading summer! I am going to start doing this. I hate always trying to punish and find out which one needs to be punished so the other feels vindicated. Now I am going to just vindicate the one hurt, which means suddenly the other one will be hurt and needing love as well .
I can see that this may well be my solution I have been seeking. Thankyou.