Church of the Firstborn

[ATL Wake]

I am reposting this from Amonhi:

"The restored church will never apostatise in these latter days."
... The institution that we have now was incorporated in 1923 and is called the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is no entity, "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

I am not implying or inferring that any of this incorporation stuff has anything to do with whether the church can fall away or not. I am simply saying that you presume the "rock" is the "institution" of the church. And frankly it can't be, because it doesn't exist. It must mean more than that.

That is a really good observation/point which probably won't mean much to most members as they will point to the priesthood which "will never be taken again... BUT, You are right. The church is NOT the rock on which, we are promised, that if we built, that we CAN NOT Fall. There is ONLY ONE rock, and it isn't the church. And it isn't the prophets who lead the church. If we build on the rock from which "WE CANNOT FALL" then we find we are qualified to receive our calling and election made sure because we can not fall. God can then promised exaltation without worrying that we might fall before receiving the full extent of the blessings... This is not the state of the current active/endowed/sealed member of the church because they are not built on the rock and are still apt to fall.

Frankly, I believe the Kingdom of God is the Church of the Firstborn, which is not the LDS church, but the LDS church is a tool/vehicle for entrance into the Church of the Firstborn.

From what I read in the scriptures, the Church of the Firstborn is the church of Christ in heaven. Entrance to this church is through calling and election.

I speak from personal experience when I say, "This is correct." But, it isn't only in Heaven. It is on the earth as well, just not organized by the hands of men as is the LDS church and other institutions which claim to be the kingdom of God. It doesn't come with observation, as in you can't see it physically. It is a spiritual church which exists on both sides of the veil. It is organized by the spirit and the spiritual rather than the flesh and the physical.

Since calling and election requires ordinances, and those ordinances are only available through the LDS church (because it has the sealing power) the LDS church is a required part of the process.

Not only is the LDS Church part of the process, but it is THE only way for this time frame...The LDS Church will transform into the Church of the Firstborn once Christ comes to reign.

This is a difficult one to consider for most Mormons, but I also know that this is not correct. I have studied many other religions and philosophies and the LDS church provides the most clarity regarding these topics, (not counting seasoned members of the Church of the Firstborn). That doesn't say much in my opinion as the few LDS members who have heard of Calling and Election, the Church of the Firstborn and the Second Comforter often think of them as mysteries rather than plain and simple truths. There are many doctrines explained in the scriptures which are not taught to the mainstream LDS church. This is one of them...

You cannot understand the Church of the Firstborn until you realize that it is completely separate from the LDS Church with different leadership, lines of Authority and even doctrines. (By doctrines, I mean that they do not teach the same things as the LDS Church because they don't need it. They have worked out their salvation/exaltation and have moved on to new things were as the LDS membership is still trying to work out their salvation/Exaltation.)

As LDS, we send missionaries out to the world to teach, as best they can, the basic truths that are relevant to salvation and introduce the basic concepts of Exaltation. The missionaries teach by the spirit those truths related to the first principles and ordinances of the "Preparatory Gospel".

This inevitably leads the investigator to the Physical gate, (Baptism), which they can choose to go through to begin the path toward Exaltation & Eternal Life. This is the path most members are presently on. They have from now to the end of the Millennium to complete this path. Aside from that, there are no time requirements for being on this path.

Sealed members are at the end of the path in the “Endure to the End stage”. The "End" refers to the end of your probation period, not the end of your life. When you have successfully completed your probation you are given the promise of Exaltation and Eternal Life. This is promised when you obtain your Calling and Election made sure. You have essentially completed the path to eternal life when you have received this promise and blessing. As Bruce R. McConkie put it,

"To have one's calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father's kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is "set down" with his "Father in his throne." - Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:325-353

Many people live to old ages and then die in the “Endure to the End stage” without ever completing the path. The reason is because the path that the physical church gives you is only a type and shadow of the spiritual church. It is the Law of Moses pointing to the higher law.

It is not enough to attend church, receive the ordinances, serve in the church and do what so many other good people do. (Merits for Terrestrial glory/kingdom) If most of the church membership are doing it, and most of the church membership don’t even know about, understand or receive these blessings, then that is a sign that they, (the majority), aren’t doing the right things.

Now, Baptism is the “gate” by which we join the physical Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This is a physical church. It is the mediator between the World/Babylon and the Spiritual Church known as the Church of the Firstborn. The Church of the Firstborn also has a “Gate” by which we enter.

Calling & Election is the end of the path that started with baptism, but it is also the “gate” by which we join the spiritual Church of the Firstborn. It is like baptism for the Physical Church in that receiving your Calling and Election made sure is the Joining Ordinance for the Spiritual Church.

The name, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, reflect who's church it is. The church is Jesus Christ’s and the Latter-day Saint’s. not all members of this church will make it to the Celestial Kingdom.
So too the name of the Church of the Firstborn reflects who the church members are. It is called "The Church of the Firstborn" because all members are firstborn sons and daughters of God who all have an equal inheritance and standing with the Firstborn (Christ). They are all considered Firstborn sons and daughters of God.

In other words, all members of the Church of the Firstborn are guaranteed, via God's promise through the testifying power of the Holy Spirit of Promise, that they will receive the firstborn's inheritance equally with Christ who was the Firstborn. This is so much the case that there is no longer a distinction in the name/title that separates Jesus from the other members of the church. Jesus is included with all the other members of the church under the title/name “Firstborn”.

Just as baptism places your name on the records of the physical church, so too receiving your Calling and Election made sure places your names on the records of heaven in the "Book of Life".

Just as we can receive the comforter after we are baptized into the physical church, we can receive the Second Comforter when we are sealed into the spiritual church.

As members of this church you learn to commune with the general assembly of heaven and also other members of the Church of the Firstborn.
Here are some other interesting points regarding the spiritual church. The spiritual church is organized and exists independently of the physical church. For example, the Church of the Firstborn has a missionary system that is completely independent of the physical church missionary system.
Who are the missionaries for the Church of the Firstborn? Joseph Smith received the revelation recorded in D&C 77:11 as follows:

“Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn."

[/quote]

Some points to note are:

• The 144,000 are ordained by angels, (not apostles or presidents), who have power over the nations of the earth.
  • The line of authority for these missionaries does not go through the physical church. These missionaries receive their calling and ordination from the angels who have authority to extend that call. The physical church cannot call or ordain these missionaries.
  • The Physical Church does not record the ordinances of Calling and Election or Second Comforter and other Church of the Firstborn Ordinances on your membership records. There isn’t even a space for it on file.
• The 144,000 are missionaries who are ordained by angels for the express mission to “bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.”
• They are also ordained to “administer the Everlasting Gospel” as opposed to the “Preparatory Gospel” administered by the physical church.

Other scriptures which point out the role of the physical church are:

Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of fcarnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.

This is the Lower Law or Law of Moses, (summarized into its main aspects), which was given to the Children of Israel administered by the Aaronic Priesthood. This same "Preparatory Gospel" was restored through Joseph Smith as part of the Restoration of ALL Things. It is the main thrust of the LDS church today. It is what the missionaries teach, it is the essence of the most holy weekly Sacrament meeting, it is the priesthood by which the Bishop officiates in the ward. The church membership are currently under the Aaronic Priesthood just as the children of Israel were anciently except that the animal sacrifice which looked forward to the atonement of Jesus Christ has been replaced by the Sacrament which mirrors every symbol of animal sacrifice but looks backward to Christ's atonement.

Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

Just as the law of Moses was misunderstood by the ancients who often thought that through it they would get to heaven, so to do we now think that we can get to the Celestial Kingdom through the principles & ordinances of the Aaronic priesthood which are only symbols of the true spiritual ordinances. Even the ordinances of the Mel. Priesthood as given in the church are signs and symbols but are ultimately meaningless without the Holy Spirit of promise sealing the blessings thereby making them sure. This is why you can receive all the ordinances of the LDS Church and still not be guaranteed exaltation, eternal families or any of the blessings you seek through the physical ordinances. Conversely, God can and does seal people without the physical ordinances. (It is rare, but it does happen to those who do not rely on dead works.) There is no blessing that God will deny the deserving who ask for it, regardless of whether they have access to the church authority and ordinances.

Without the Holy Spirit of Promise, all covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise are void no matter who does it with what priesthood authority or physical church position. Men cannot write your name in heaven in the book of life. And, in reverse, no man can remove from the "Book of Life" the name of a person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit and yet has not gone through the church system. It is not man's call. And God still uses and gives His own Priesthood as he did anciently when he gave the priesthood to Esaias who was "blessed by Abraham" but receive his priesthood from "the hand of God" and not through the church or through the line of Melchizedek, (D&C 84:12-14).

"On no, I've said too much...but I haven't said enough..." - REM[/quote]

[Tribunal]

That was very interesting! I have some studying to do.

[Gideon]

ATL Wake, great post!

[ATL Wake]

ATL Wake, great post!

That wasn't my post. It was Amonhi's post from a different thread. I just reposted.

[Amonhi]

It is obvious that you have studied this subject in depth Amonhi.

Thank you. But more than study, as I stated previously, I have lived it and am speaking largely from experience. Joseph Smith said, "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject" (TPJS, p. 324; cf. HC 6:50).

Having said that, I also acknowledge that I am still learning and will on occasion find that I was wrong on some point or other at which time after being persuaded, I will readily accept the new information. I encourage others to not believe what I, (or anyone else), say unless the Holy Ghost tells them personally that a particular point is true. In this way, the Holy Ghost will teach us ALL THINGS.

I have one question for you to start the ball rolling on this. Do you personally believe that an individual can attain membership in the Church of the Firstborn without qualifying for and living worthy of all the covenants that they make in the temple?

That is a good question, but the wording can be misleading, if you will permit me, I will first answer another question and finish by answering yours...

The first question is, "Does a person need to have received all the ordinances of the physical LDS Church including those available in the temple prior to obtaining their calling and election made sure thereby becoming a member of the Church of the Firstborn and receiving all the benefits of membership in the spiritual church."

The short answer is "No". And this answer applies to all ordinances.

Here is how it works. If a Bishop interviews Joe and believes Joe to be worthy of Baptism/Holy Ghost, then the Bishop will authorize Joe to receive be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. Now, let’s say that Joe was only getting baptized so he could date those hot LDS girls, (the wrong reason). Well, Joe would be baptized and be given the by the laying on of hands the gift of the Holy Ghost… But he would not have been washed clean or received the Holy Ghost which only comes through the spiritual ordinances which bring life.

The point of baptism, and all other Aaronic priesthood ordinances is to clean and prepare people to be worthy of the Holy Ghost. As we know, the Holy Ghost does NOT dwell in unclean temples. So, are we told that we need to be cleaned by baptism or the sacrament or even animal sacrifice. But these ordinances all fall into the “Dead Works” category.

These Aaronic priesthood ordinances are nothing more than symbols and signposts. Outward signs of something that has already happened or will at some future point happen inwardly. This is why they are considered "Dead Works", and to rely on such dead works in the hopes that they will produce living results is flawed.

For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

Notice that he said the "Mercy" comes from Christ and the "Power" of the ordinance comes not from the physical ordinance, but from his Holy Spirit. Baptism itself is a dead work for everyone just as it was for Christ, (but it is a very powerful and effective symbol). That is why baptizing little children and those who are without the law is putting trust in the baptism itself and misses the point entirely. When we believe the ordinances are what make the difference, and so perform the ordinance believing that somehow binds God, then we are putting our trust in the dead works and not in God or the living spiritual works.

And as stated before, “Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works. For it is because of your dead works, (More specifically your faith in Dead Works), that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.” – See D&C 22:2-3

If God wants to bless someone, give them Priesthood or even their calling and election made sure. Does he have to get Men to approve his decision by having someone in authority formally interview, approve and then perform a physical ordinance?

Let’s say that Joe was 16 and he was fully converted to the Gospel path, started paying tithing, attending meetings and acting as a full fledged LDS in every respect. But, because Joe was not old enough to join the church without parental approval, and Joe’s parents would not approve, Joe could not be baptized or receive the Holy Ghost and all the gifts of the spirit which come with it. Now, do you think that God would look at Joe and say, sorry, I am bound by the social and political system in which you live and you will just have to wait for the blessings you are worthy of. See me again in about 3-4 years. This is the exact scenario my mother was in when she was 16-19. When she was over 19 years old, she decided to ask the bishop for permission to be baptized. He was shocked and couldn’t believe that she hadn’t already been because she was fully active in the church. When she learned that she could not be baptized, she received a blessing from her friend’s uncle. The blessing said that no blessing would be withheld from her by her parents decision. She says that she could not tell any difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost which she experienced from 16-19 years old as an unbaptized member and the same gift as a baptized member 19+ years old to today.

But let’s go further and ask, “Does God now require men to save his children because he can’t save them himself?” I mean did God give his authority to act in his name, (Priesthood), away such that he no longer has the ability or authority to act for himself in his own name? Are God’s hands tied so tight that he must rely on fallible men to act for him because he is no longer capable of acting for himself? Good questions I think… And this is the very heart of my restated question.

Can God give others the Gift of the Holy Ghost prior to baptism and without the laying on of the hands by those who have authority to do so? Yes

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

In the New Testament, it was common to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands. Even the Apostles themselves did not receive it by the laying on of hands which Christ could have easily done himself, many times...( John 14:26 & Acts 2:1-4) This same theme is seen throughout the Book of Mormon in examples including Lamoni, his wife and servants and the Lamonite prison guards. Even Christ said,

“And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.”

It is hard to miss a physical ordinance which is one of the reasons we use them. So, “they knew it not” because it was done spiritually without a physical ordinance at the “time of their conversion” not after being interviewed and found worthy, etc.

Can God give his priesthood authority to act in His name without a man laying on hands and providing a line of authority back to Adam? Yes

…and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying:… And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; …Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

And Esaias received it, (the Mel. Priesthood), under the hand of God.

And can God promise a person exaltation and eternal life without that person going through the LDS Church temple ordinances, authority and systems? Yes, and not only can He, but ONLY God can make this unconditional promise .

Priesthood authorities may make the promise, but unless God Himself has sealed it, it is and will remain conditional regardless of priesthood authority or position in the physical Church. No man can make an unconditional promise that is binding to God. Now, a man might speak by the Power of the Holy Ghost and thereby announce what has been done, but it is not the man but God that makes it so.

So, a sealer working in the temple does not tell God whom God must seal. And many people go to and get through the temple unworthy or for the wrong reasons. They get endowed or sealed and maybe were having an affair on the side for example. God is not bound to honor such ordinances. (Ever wonder why the lockers in the temple have locks and keys when every member is pre-qualified by two authorities to be there?) Temple Ordinances are also dead works that in and of themselves have no life, but like the Aaronic priesthood ordinances, they point toward the life giving spiritual ordinances.

Some people need these dead works because although they have already made the commitment to walk the path, and they may have already received the Holy Ghost, they need an ordinance to commemorate that decision. A mile marker. They may also trust in that dead work so much that they refuse to accept the spiritual ordinance without having a physical one.

Some people do not. For example, Moroni taught that we should teach baptism ONLY to those who need it and he noted that there groups of people who do not need baptism... he said,

For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

Here are 2 groups that are not expected to be baptized... Little Children & they that are without the law. (Who are they without the law? Why didn't he just say "little children"? Another interesting discussion for another thread...)

My wife received her endowment via the spirit and we were sealed by the spirit while still engaged. We both recognized and acknowledged it but decided that it would be better for everyone else’s benefit if we go through the motions and become sealed physically before consummating our sealing. Since that time, we have seen other couples experience the same.

This brings me back to your question, which was different than mine…

Do you personally believe that an individual can attain membership in the Church of the Firstborn without qualifying for and living worthy of all the covenants that they make in the temple?

Being qualified and living worthy IS the point and it is the ONLY thing that truly matters. Doing a bunch of dead works without receiving the spiritual ordinances thinking that somehow you will hold up your LDS membership record with the list of ordinances you received at the Pearly Gates as proof you should be let in will result in sad failure. C&E is the minimum requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom. A testimony of Christ is the minimum requirement to enter the Telestial kingdom, and many non-Mormons will find them selves here along side many of the baptized, endowed, sealed and "Enduring to the End" Mormons. Being a fallen man is the minimum requirement to enter the Terrestial Kingdom.

If you qualify to pass through the Pearly Gates, then you CAN get the passing grade right now in the form of your Calling and Election made sure. If you don’t qualify, then you haven’t met the requirements and “enduring to the end” of your probation is simply waiting for the test to end without knowing the right answers. The good news is that this isn’t a “close book” test so as long as you are in your probation, you have time to find and apply the right answers.

What is required to make your Calling & Election Sure is only to have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost and to let it teach you ALL THINGS. I am not saying to have hands laid on your head and being COMMANDED to receive the Holy Ghost, (physical ordinance), I am saying to have really received the Holy Ghost spiritually. I am also saying that you do not need to be endowed or married or (add your own criteria here).

After saying this, I will admit that most of the people I know who have received the promise and are members of the Church of the Firstborn have gone through the entire LDS system, include my wife and I. However, we are also aware of some who have not been LDS who have received the same. I also know a man who received his promise while serving an LDS mission, (20-21 years old), not having at the time been married, (This is an interesting story!).

I would also add that if you are in the "Endure to the End" Stage, this discussion is entirely irrelevant to you except as interesting conversation because you have already done everything the physical Church has asked of you. If you find yourself in this position, it is wise to ask yourself why you, having completed every requirement the physical church set before you, do not have your calling and Election made sure, are not speaking with angels, and have not received he Second Comforter and have not obtained all the promised blessings of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Why are these things still conditional when you have completed ALL of the conditions the Church has given you? Are you still not worthy of the Temple or could there be another reason?

I think I answered your question to my satisfaction and I am ready for your scrutiny.

"Oh no, I've said too much...but I haven't said enough" - REM

[reese]

Wow Amonhi, where were you a few months ago. I seem to remember a thread that went on and on trying to decide if someone could receive the holy ghost without first being baptized and told to receive it by the proper authority.

I would be very interested in hearing what you have to say about baptism by fire and the holy ghost. I'm sure you are aware of the two sides to this subject. One side says that BF&HG is always a discernable event that you will not miss happening to you. The other side says that it can be a very slow process that can take years to happen and then one day you just realize that you have been BF&HG.

Another thing I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on is angels and their role with mankind. I have been reading Alma lately. It seems as if he is trying to say something(without coming right out and saying it) about an angels role in teaching people. He says in chapter 12 that the Lord sent angels to converse with men and caused them to behold the glory of God. I am very interested in what kind of "conversation" would cause someone to behold the glory of God.

[p51-mustang]

You say enduring to the end wont get us to exaltation, but what about this scripture?:

d&c 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

[sbsion]

to qualify for the "Church" of the first born, we must "be ye therefore perfect" having recieve a mighty change and the Holy spirit of promise through the atonement. Without such, NO MAN can "take this honor unto himself"

[Rand]

Amonhi, your discourse is interesting, but makes the vicarious work for the dead seem rather fruitless. It also seems to make some scriptures a little off the mark on the necessity for baptism ie/. JN 3:5. To "fulfill all righteousness" (2 Ne 31), is not an absolute. Could you address those two concerns?

[Amonhi]

I would be very interested in hearing what you have to say about baptism by fire and the holy ghost. I'm sure you are aware of the two sides to this subject. One side says that BF&HG is always a discernable event that you will not miss happening to you. The other side says that it can be a very slow process that can take years to happen and then one day you just realize that you have been BF&HG.

I never really thought about this. I have a thought or 2 but want to keep it out of this thread as it will lead to debate no inline with this conversation. Can you PM the link to a thread discussing this?

Another thing I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on is angels and their role with mankind. I have been reading Alma lately. It seems as if he is trying to say something(without coming right out and saying it) about an angels role in teaching people. He says in chapter 12 that the Lord sent angels to converse with men and caused them to behold the glory of God. I am very interested in what kind of "conversation" would cause someone to behold the glory of God.

Same thing, what thread can we talk about this?

[Amonhi]

You say enduring to the end wont get us to exaltation, but what about this scripture?:

d&c 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

My point is that you are in a probationary state until you complete your probation. When you complete your probation you "Endured to the End".(Past tense as in you did it.) Until then, you remain in the "Endure to the end stage" having never reached the end and still on the path toward the end.

The Probation ends either when time runs out or when you finish your probation.

Time runs out at the end of the millennium when the wicked are finally resurrected. Because the Millennium is 1000 years, we have 1000+ years to finish our probation favorably.

C&E is not optional if you intend to go to the CK...

“Obviously any person who gains exaltation, in the ultimate and in the end, has made his calling and election sure. So in one manner of speaking, no one will ever gain exaltation, no one will every have the family unit continue in eternity unless his calling and election has been made sure, or in other words, unless he has gained the promise that he shall inherit eternal life.” - "Making Our Calling & Election Sure: - Elder Bruce R. McConkie, First Council of the Seventy, BYU Devotional, 25 March 1969

“As a matter of fact, the blessings of the celestial kingdom are promised only to those who have such an assurance. According to the Vision, a successful candidate for these blessings must qualify on three counts: First, he must have "... received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name" and been "... baptized after the manner of his burial"; second, he must have received "the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power"; and third, he must be "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise." (D&C 76:51-53.)" - "Fruits of the Gospel" by Marion G. Romney, General Conference, 1 October 1949.

Lets say that you endure to the end of your life and you still haven't received the promise. No problem keep enduring until you reach the end and eventually the Millennium will start. Well keep enduring and eventually at the end of the millennium when the wicked are raised from the dead you will find that you are among them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many will asay to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will aI profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - 3 Ne. 14:21-23

This would be like beginning a race and never passing the finish line. Did you endure to the end? No, you just endured until everyone got tired of waiting for you and went home. You didn't get the crown just a participant ribbon. Nice...

The idea here is not to get stuck. Don't just sit there stagnant saying to yourself, "I did everything the church told me to do and I don't have to do anything else except not fall from where I am today. I don't have to make significant progress I just don't have to break my temple covenants and I will make it." The point is to keep progressing, learning and striving for the the blessing and all the experiences that come with it.

So, what about the other option, actually running the race and completing it. If you pass the finish line then you have endured the race and seen it through to the end. You in fact endured to the end of your probation.

“This, then, without amplifying, without saying more, is the doctrine that is involved. It is a true doctrine; it is a sound doctrine. What does it mean to us? It is not something that is beyond us; it is not outside the realm of our capabilities. The Lord would not offer baptism to a people and say, "Be baptized and you can be saved in my kingdom," unless he knew that the people had it within their power to enter into baptism and to do the things that will result in the promised salvation. And the Lord would not offer to a people celestial marriage and say to them, "Now enter this order of matrimony and keep the covenant and you will have eternal life," unless he knew that the people had the talent and the spiritual capacity and ability to gain the promised reward. And the same thing applies to making our calling and election sure. The Lord would not say to us, "Make your calling and election sure," unless he knew it was within our spiritual potential -- unless we had the capacity and ability to press forward in steadfastness and devotion until that desired eventuality occurred.
…
Now, I am suggesting that this is within the realm of possibility and of probability for the members of the Church today. Many in this dispensation have obtained such a status. This ought to cause us to make a firm and unshakable determination to gain the blessings and benefits of baptism; to gain the blessings and benefits of celestial marriage; and in each instance those blessings accrue on condition that we keep the covenants that we make in connection with those holy ordinances. And then we ought to press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, keeping the commandments and living by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, so that our calling and election shall be made sure. In one manner of speaking, this is the most glorious doctrine that there is in the Church. It is the doctrine that assures people of eternal reward in the kingdom of God. By the grace and glory and goodness of a merciful Father, he has restored in this, our day, the knowledge, the doctrine, the keys, the priesthood, the powers -- everything that is needed to seal men up unto eternal life. Our objective, our goal, our aim, our determination in this life is to press forward with that steadfastness and devotion which will give us complete peace and satisfaction and joy in this life and assure us of eternal life in the world to come.” - "Making Our Calling & Election Sure: - Elder Bruce R. McConkie, First Council of the Seventy, BYU Devotional, 25 March 1969

[Amonhi]

to qualify for the "Church" of the first born, we must "be ye therefore perfect" having recieve a mighty change and the Holy spirit of promise through the atonement. Without such, NO MAN can "take this honor unto himself"

These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new ccovenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

Perfection is highly overrated... LOL Or more specifically, not what the average person would think.

I don't think this was your point, but don't disqualify yourself by saying that you aren't perfect enough. Let God be the judge. He is better at it. he's had a little more experience than most. He's pretty fair too.

[Gideon]

And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
(2 Nephi 31:5‎)‎

Notice that Christ needed to be baptized, it wasn't optional for Him, and it is not optional for us either.

The ordinances come from God, not man, and they are not dead works. They do not force a result on someone who isn't worthy, but they do enable power to flow from on High to those who are. And just because there are extenuating circumstances from time to time does not mean that anyone can simply choose to ignore them and still receive their exaltation.

We need to do things according to His law, not ours. Here are the only provisions for those whose marriages are not sealed by His law:

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
(Doctrine and Covenants 132:15–17‎)‎

What is His law?

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?
(Doctrine and Covenants 132:7–11‎)‎

In verse 7 above, the reference is made to one who has the sealing power necessary to perform the ordinance.

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, your discourse is interesting, but makes the vicarious work for the dead seem rather fruitless. It also seems to make some scriptures a little off the mark on the necessity for baptism ie/. JN 3:5. To "fulfill all righteousness" (2 Ne 31), is not an absolute. Could you address those two concerns?

Thanks for the opportunity to respond to your questions Rand. Here are some considerations:

You - but makes the vicarious work for the dead seem rather fruitless.
Me – It makes the actual work for the living seem rather fruitless too. Does that seem like something God tends to do? I mean does it seem like God would have hundreds of people doing something that is essentially a waste of time?
For example animal scarifies, circumcisions, or walking around in circles in the wilderness for 40 or so years. Yep, that sound like God alright. LOL But it isn’t entirely “Fruitless”.

Now baptism for the living or the dead really in itself “availeth nothing”. Meaning that the physical does nothing in regard to your progression. You either progressed spiritually before receiving the physical ordinance or after receiving the physical ordinance but not because of the physical ordinance. That is the point, but it also isn’t entirely true because when people rely on dead works, they put faith in dead works, it gives the dead works power, because of the faith you put into them.

The power is that by believing that baptism washes away your sins, you are able to use the ordinance to forgive yourself. God already forgave you and didn’t need an ordinance to do so. But when you come out of the font having forgiven yourself, What an incredible feeling! Then again, if a person were not to believe this or thought that their sins were too great for baptism to clear, then they would be baptized and NOT get the great feeling!

This is why the Lord said,

“For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.” – D&C 22:3

The truth is that the Holy Ghost doesn’t dwell in unholy temples, so, if the Holy Ghost dwelt in you before baptism, then you were clean. Investigators will often keep the spirit for days still having not been baptized. Even Christ had the gift of the Holy Ghost throughout his life before being baptized. And John the Baptist was “filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb”, D&C 84:27.

Another reason ordinances are NOT entirely “Fruitless” is that they teach us, they are symbols that point us and others to the real works. But there is also a point. Everything physical has a spiritual point.

Adam raised his hands to heaven asking God to hear the words that he spoke. God didn’t hear him, Satan did. Why?

Because he was praying with his mouth and not his heart. God hears the sincere desires of our hearts whether uttered or unexpressed. Praying is all about what happens internally, not externally. How do you teach someone to pray correctly when you can’t show them what is happening inside you?

Symbols… Folding arms, kneeling, bowing your head changing the tone of your voice. These of themselves do nothing meaning that God is not going to hear an insincere prayer just because someone folded their arms, bowed their head and knelt down and rattled off some memorized words. Such prayers are “counted evil unto a man...and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.” The symbols of an ordinance teach you what is going on spiritually. When you study the temple endowment try to see what the symbols tell you. They are trying to teach you things. Your aren’t “endowed with power” because you completed the ordinance, you are endowed with power when you understand the meaning behind the ordinance. When you finally see how to pierce the veil.

We are not saved by the physical, we are saved by the spiritual. This is the same for the living or the dead. So how do you teach someone about things that can’t be seen, touched, tasted, smelled or heard? You create physical representations that symbolically mimics the spiritual. Create things that can be seen, touched tasted, smelled and heard which are symbols of the spiritual. Joseph Smith said,

“All things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has seen fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle, but are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all; and those revelations which will save our spirits will save our bodies." TPJS - Section Six 1843-44, p.355

So, if dead require dead works, (just like the living), then they need their work to be done vicariously by someone who has a physical body. But the work itself is dead and only has the power that we give it with our faith. What this means is that we can experience the same without the ordinance. Try it if you like. Believe what I have said make a fresh commitment to following Christ and let your sins go right now. Do right now what you did when you were baptized or when you take the sacrament and see for yourself. You don’t need a physical ordinances to do spiritual work.

To fulfill all righteousness…

Baptism has many symbols and meanings. Following Christ into the water = Obedience, being buried in water and coming up again = Resurrection or Redeemed from the grave, Washed with water = Cleaning of sin or Redeemed from Sin.

Everyone will be resurrected even if they don’t accept baptism. Everyone will be saved in one of God’s kingdoms except the Son’s of Perdition. It is the Obedience that is the beginning of the path. Same reason Christ was baptized is the same reason we are baptized. To OBEY God. The lord said,

“Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, …Wherefore, enter ye in at the agate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.” – D&C 22:4

This is where we begin our path. The Servant phase. We do this to fulfill all righteousness. Humbly submit to whatever God tells us to do. Eventually we come to see that we can learn why God is telling us to do stuff and we see that if we learn enough we will become like Him, (The Son phase). After we have learned enough he then begins to counsel with us as equals and we can have our own opinions which may disagree, (The Friend phase). But, to follow this path, we must start with Obedience as servants.

I will point out here again that there are those who do not need to take this path. Children and those who are without the law...

[Mark]

Conversely, God can and does seal people without the physical ordinances. (It is rare, but it does happen to those who do not rely on dead works.) There is no blessing that God will deny the deserving who ask for it, regardless of whether they have access to the church authority and ordinances.

I would like you to expand upon this Amonhi in light of section 84 verses 19-21. I think this is what Gideon is referencing here. I have my grandkids in town so my time is limited unless I want to be a schmucky grandpa but I at least wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you.

[Amonhi]

Notice that Christ needed to be baptized, it wasn't optional for Him, and it is not optional for us either.

This is a good point and it is correct, but it was only correct for that audience, not for everyone... He is speaking of course to "them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken Law".

Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law. - Moroni 8:24

Christ specifically came to "those who are under the curse of the broken law" not to the world/gentiles.

Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? - Alma 42:17

Jesus said,

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. - Luke 5:31-32

Remember that the Law was given because of transgression?

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;" - Gal. 3:19

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," - 1 Tim. 1:9

The law was not given to the righteous. The righteous don't need it. Not everyone is a craw dad sitting in the sandy hole. Those who are under the law can sin and be condemned. Those who are not under the law cannot sin and are not condemned. The savior came to save those who were under the law. How did he do this? He taught them, but more importantly he condescended to their level by putting himself under the law also and then showed them how to get out from under the law by doing it himself.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: - Gal. 3:13

Those who are under the law should follow their Savior and do as he did and they will find the path that takes them out from under the law.

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." - Gal 3:23-25

When we come out from under the law, we can no longer sin. And we don't need a law to keep us in line because we can keep ourselves in line.

The law was not given to everyone. There are little children and there are those who are not under the law. You can become one of those who are not under the law by fulfilling the law and coming to the promise, (Calling and Election Made Sure). Or you might be like the those who are raised without sin unto salvation during the Millennium.

With respect to the Millennium, the Lord has given this information regarding the parents who will live in that society:

“And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.” (D&C 45:58.)

Obviously, the parents who will inherit the earth will be those who have learned to raise their children without sin unto salvation. - Oct. 1991 General Conference, “Bring Up Your Children in Light and Truth” by H. VERLAN ANDERSEN

There are those today who have likewise been raised free of the law and free of the curse and free of sin. Having never sinned, Baptism, repentance and the entirety of the lower law availeth them nothing. To expect them to be baptized is a mockery to God and putting trust in dead works.

For behold that all little children are aalive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works. - Moroni 8:22-23

Remember how the law was "added"... In the case of the Children of Israel, it was added, (according to Gal. 3:17), 430 years after Abraham received his promise for himself and his posterity who were "Born under the covenant". (I understand that the 430 years is not correct, but it makes the point.)

So then, if the promise is given and then a law is given, can the law break the promise making if void?

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. ...the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. - Gal. 3:16-18

This law is the Law of Moses or the physical law, D&C 84:25-27 which was given to the people who could not see the face of God. BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT BEHOLD THE FACE OF GOD, THE LOWER LAW WAS GIVEN...

Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of fcarnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.

This is the SAME law that the LDS Church is under right now and it was GIVEN for the same reason, and when the Membership of the Church can behold the face of God then His wrath will be taken away and we will be living the higher law which is written on our hearts rather than on cold hard stone. Until that time, the LDS Church will perform physical ordinances for the same reasons that the Children of Israel did. The church will continue to teach,

The Preparatory Gospel, which gospel is the gospel of

• repentance
• baptism
• remission of sins
• the law of Carnal Commandments (the same one you are sinning against which requires repentance and baptism and remission of sins...)

All of which are administered by the Aaronic Priesthood. It will also teach that there is a higher law and encourage people to seek it and understand it via the ordinances of the Mel. Priesthood which are also symbols which point to the spiritual but of themselves are not the spiritual.

The physical law does nothing but points to the spiritual law. The spiritual law is written on our hearts, it is amendable to circumstances, it relies on natural consequences and is the law by which God and all the hosts of heaven are governed. The natural consequences are as certain as gravity. You cannot sin against gravity. You cannot break the natural law, only you are subject to the results of the natural law. This is the higher law. You are under it when you are under the lower law too, but it is subtle whereas the lower law is not.

We need to do things according to His law, not ours.

You are correct Gideon. But his law is the natural law and he has given fallen man the Preparatory Gospel and it law of "Carnel Commandments" which you are referring to. So, if you are speaking about the lower law, to sinners and those who like yourself are under the Lower law, then yes, they need to go through the spiritual process to get out from under the law, as I stated before. But, the physical still does nothing and a person can get out of the lower law without the symbols and sign posts if they can accept the spiritual ordinances and don't "mock God" by "putting trust" in the physical ones.

[katmr]

Amonhi. I still have much studying to do but I'm trying to follow this thread and learn some things. I just have a question that maybe you could help me with. You talked about going from the Son (servant) phase to the (friend) phase and counseling together. I was just wondering if you have any scriptures pertaining to this thought. I know there is a scripture about His ways being higher than our ways and His thoughts being higher than our thoughts, so I guess I'm having a hard time with that part. My understanding is that we should always submit to His will as He submits to the will of the Father and because He is a God, what need has he to counsel with us as equals? I believe he can be our friend but I've felt I should always be seeking his counsel, not my own. If you could maybe explain this a bit more to me. Thanks for your help.

[Amonhi]

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;.

I would like you to expand upon this Amonhi in light of section 84 verses 19-21. I think this is what Gideon is referencing here. I have my grandkids in town so my time is limited unless I want to be a schmucky grandpa but I at least wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you.

Sure. We might be talking, you and I, and I might ask, "I wonder it you could help me to understand and comprehend an apple?"
You might be a healthy guy and have an apple in your pocket and hold it up for me and say, "This is an apple." Then to make sure that I understood it, you might then cut it open and let me touch it, taste it, smell it, etc. I would have a decent idea as to what an apple was all about.

But then I might say to you, "I wonder if you could help me to understand and comprehend the Baptism of Fire".
How would you go about doing that?

A quick google search for the word "Manifest" tells us:

man·i·fest/ˈmanəˌfest/
Adjective:
Clear or obvious to the eye or mind: "the system's manifest failings".
Verb:
Display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate: "manifest signs of depression".
Record in such a manifest: "every passenger is manifested at the point of departure".
Noun:
A document giving the details of a ship and its cargo, passengers, and crew for the use of customs officers.

Well, God "manifests" does it through his ordinances which are symbols pointing to the spiritual. the baptism of Fire is one example of "the powers of Godliness".

The priesthood authority is given to those who have received the symbols and are able to make sure the ordinance is performed correctly. Using this process the Church ensures the correct symbols are used. Makes certain that the symbols/ordinances are correct. I had an uncle who as a bishop was having an affair for 2 years. Was he worthy of the priesthood? No, not by anyone definition. If he wan't worthy, then did he had the priesthood?

Does that mean that all the ordinances he performed over the 2 year period had to be done again? Nope, because the ordinances are not dependent on the worthiness of the person performing the ordinance. The only time an ordinance has to be redone is when the symbols are screwed up. This is why the scripture reads

in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

The physical ordinances point to the spiritual.

!!!Addition: I wanted to point out that the scripture says the powers of Godliness are "Manifest", (meaning Displayed, shown, made clear or obvious to the eye or mind), in the ordinances. It does not say that the powers of God are "Experienced" (meaning... the ordinance actually does something beside pointing to the spiritual or teaching a principle/lesson).

If I were to say, "Show me a sealing". You would take me to the temple and we could watch an ordinance, but we all know that I didn't just see a sealing. They weren't sealed. They were told they could be sealed. But it wasn't finalized and it means nothing to God who has no obligation to honor it. You still haven't shown me an actual for real sealing which God acknowledges. But you have shown me the symbols that point to the spiritual experience that someone has when they are truly sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

[Rand]

Amonhi, I agree with much of your posts. I do see this in a different way than you do. Who are those "under the Law" and who are those who are not "under the law"? I think all men have a conscience and know right from wrong. I think Christ visited all people after his mortal ministry and taught them all a level of the law, and they are obligated to honor that level of the law that their people recieved. I think we have received a law that as a people we are not honoring as well as we might.

You do make a good point with the difference of the ordinance being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is a complete ordinance, but I am not able to agree with you on the lack of need for the ordinances, except to children, and to those few who are not under the law, which is those, I believe who are not capable of knowing, or the mentally handicapped or like people who cannot know fully what they are doing. You seem to believe that there are others than these that do not require the ordinances of salvation.

The 4th article of faith states quite plainly as do many other scriptures, that baptism is essential in the Gospel plan. Yet, you are claiming that there are "some" who do not need that. I disagree, with the above exception, can you clarify if there are any that do not need it outside of those I mentioned above? Are you claiming there is another Gospel?

[pjbrownie]

So to clarify, when you talk about the Church of the Firstborn, are you talking about the group down there in Manti associated with the Ezekiel group and Sterling Allen? Or something more abstract?

[pjbrownie]

Not all of it. I'm simply asking a question. When I get to the Church of the Firstborn, I stiffen. My mother in law supports an apostate group by the same name. I know it's scriptural but the use has gotten blurred by apostates.

[7cylon7]

In short, since I don't have the time right now. I find your logic flawed. I see many good points, however, the main thing I see as a problem is that your theory leave open the ability to apostizise. Your logic lead to the saying that I don't need the prophets or the apostels because I can get it straight from god. In fact, Max Skousen said the exact same thing you have in a long detailed book, which eventually got him excommunicated. hmmmm sounds seriouse to me. Can an excommunicated person get his calling and election made sure from god when his anointed servants authorized by god to act in his name does this?

There are many flaws in the stated theory above. First I agree with 90% of what was stated. The best being that any ordinace (baptism) is dead without the person really being converted. Being baptized just to marry a BYU co-ed, which I know has been done many times and even going to the temple to get married because the women says that is the only way I will be married. If a guy really loves her and not the church then what is he going to do? I have heard of a guy doing this. Doing all those things then got married and then a few years later was completely inactive. He only did it to marry the one he loved, he had no real testimony of Christ. So for this man the works are dead. Yet you say all these ordinances are not needed if you only have the spirit with you and you are accepted by god. The house of the lord is not confusion. Your theory brings tons an tons of confusion into the mix. The Lord has a house of order. D&C. Things are to be done in its proper time and place. In fact, Joseph Smith and OLiver had to be rebaptized because they did not record it the first time they were baptized. They had to do it again and record it on the church records. Does not mean the first one was not good, but the Lord has a way and a process that HE wants followed. HE, in this last day, has told us what he wants done and how he wants it to be done.

Yes, the physical alone is dead but without it, ye are damned. Even with the spirit with you.

To keep it short, too late, you need both, and I agree the spiritual side is much more important than the physical side yet, if you leave the simple and easy physical side out you can not enter heaven or have your calling and election made sure. IT goes against all things God had taught his children. Oh He may make someone calling sure but guess what, he will have to be baptized and do all the temple work for himself or someone will have to do it for him. There is no getting around those requirements.

Let compromise and say that both are needed.

[Mark]

After saying this, I will admit that most of the people I know who have received the promise and are members of the Church of the Firstborn have gone through the entire LDS system, include my wife and I. However, we are also aware of some who have not been LDS who have received the same.

I am very uncomfortable with this declaration amonhi. Based on my reading and study the temple is an integral and necessary part of receiving this promise and becoming a member of the Church of the Firstborn. Unless someone has received all the blessings of the house of the Lord I do not feel it would be feasible or practical for those who have not experienced this blessing to have these higher ordinances and blessings bestowed upon them.

From Doctrines of Salvation 2:42 it states "The Lord has made it possible for all of us to become members of the Church of the Firstborn, by receiving the blessings of the house of the Lord and overcoming all things... they seal upon us the keys and powers which, through obedience, entitle us to become sons and daughters and members of the Church of the Firstborn, receiving all things in the Kingdom. This is what we get IN THE TEMPLE, so that we become members of the family, sons and daughters of God, not servants."

[sonofliberty]

Amonhi, very interesting topic. I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Definitely some food for thought. I agree with much of what you said, but my understanding (which by no means do I think is infalliable) on this subject is more along the lines of what Rand sets forth here:

Amonhi, I agree with much of your posts. I do see this in a different way than you do. Who are those "under the Law" and who are those who are not "under the law"? I think all men have a conscience and know right from wrong. I think Christ visited all people after his mortal ministry and taught them all a level of the law, and they are obligated to honor that level of the law that their people recieved. I think we have received a law that as a people we are not honoring as well as we might.

You do make a good point with the difference of the ordinance being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is a complete ordinance, but I am not able to agree with you on the lack of need for the ordinances, except to children, and to those few who are not under the law, which is those, I believe who are not capable of knowing, or the mentally handicapped or like people who cannot know fully what they are doing. You seem to believe that there are others than these that do not require the ordinances of salvation.

The 4th article of faith states quite plainly as do many other scriptures, that baptism is essential in the Gospel plan. Yet, you are claiming that there are "some" who do not need that. I disagree, with the above exception, can you clarify if there are any that do not need it outside of those I mentioned above? Are you claiming there is another Gospel?

I am interested to read your thoughts.

[sonofliberty]

In short, since I don't have the time right now. I find your logic flawed. I see many good points, however, the main thing I see as a problem is that your theory leave open the ability to apostizise. Your logic lead to the saying that I don't need the prophets or the apostels because I can get it straight from god. In fact, Max Skousen said the exact same thing you have in a long detailed book, which eventually got him excommunicated. hmmmm sounds seriouse to me. Can an excommunicated person get his calling and election made sure from god when his anointed servants authorized by god to act in his name does this?

There are many flaws in the stated theory above. First I agree with 90% of what was stated. The best being that any ordinace (baptism) is dead without the person really being converted. Being baptized just to marry a BYU co-ed, which I know has been done many times and even going to the temple to get married because the women says that is the only way I will be married. If a guy really loves her and not the church then what is he going to do? I have heard of a guy doing this. Doing all those things then got married and then a few years later was completely inactive. He only did it to marry the one he loved, he had no real testimony of Christ. So for this man the works are dead. Yet you say all these ordinances are not needed if you only have the spirit with you and you are accepted by god. The house of the lord is not confusion. Your theory brings tons an tons of confusion into the mix. The Lord has a house of order. D&C. Things are to be done in its proper time and place. In fact, Joseph Smith and OLiver had to be rebaptized because they did not record it the first time they were baptized. They had to do it again and record it on the church records. Does not mean the first one was not good, but the Lord has a way and a process that HE wants followed. HE, in this last day, has told us what he wants done and how he wants it to be done.

Yes, the physical alone is dead but without it, ye are damned. Even with the spirit with you.

To keep it short, too late, you need both, and I agree the spiritual side is much more important than the physical side yet, if you leave the simple and easy physical side out you can not enter heaven or have your calling and election made sure. IT goes against all things God had taught his children. Oh He may make someone calling sure but guess what, he will have to be baptized and do all the temple work for himself or someone will have to do it for him. There is no getting around those requirements.

Let compromise and say that both are needed.

+1 very well put and my thoughts precisely. This is how I have understood things to be.