How many of our number?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

http://www.newordermormon.org/

(fair use discussion purposes)

What is a New Order Mormon?

New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.
Finding the Middle Way in Mormonism

The Chapel on Temple SquareThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a complex religion with both inspiring and disturbing aspects. For those who learn about the disquieting aspects of the faith but choose to remain connected, this site offers support, information, and a community of like-minded people.

The LDS Church claims to be the "only true church," creating the perception that the Church is either all true or all false. This black-or-white dichotomy makes many members feel they have to leave the Church entirely after being exposed to new information.

Sometimes these disillusioned members feel that there must be a "true" church out there, and they jump quickly into another church without taking the time to "detox" themselves. More frequently, it seems, people turn their backs on religion in general, seeing a scam behind every pulpit or succumbing to the LDS line, "This church or no church."

These are not your only choices! The choice to leave the church may be valid for some, but for others staying can and does work. As part of your decision, spend some reflective time here. Our discussion board is full of messages of confusion, encouragement, and hope--messages that will remind you that you are not alone in your struggle with your faith. You'll also find essays written for and by NOMs, links to incredibly useful websites, and suggestions for dealing with family and other believing Mormons.

Whatever your course, we hope this site will be helpful as your spiritual journey unfolds.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Check out the forums!

http://forum.newordermormon.org/

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

From the forum:

302 registered users
76677 articles
16 users online

They are more active than us most of the time! If they are a minority, we are more so a minority in our church! That should be alarming to everyone!

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

An eye opening poll!

What is the highest calling you have held?
Stake President / counselor 2% [ 1 ]
Stake High Council 8% [ 4 ]
Relief Society Presidency 13% [ 6 ]
YW or Primary Presidency 19% [ 9 ]
Counselor in Aux. Presidencies 19% [ 9 ]
Bishop 2% [ 1 ]
Counselor in Bishopric 10% [ 5 ]
EQ Pres 13% [ 6 ]
YM or SS Pres 10% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 46

http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?t=6238

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Somebodies handle on the site:

Melodica
Korihor's my hero

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Another's handle is "believe this" with a picture of the prison where Joseph was held captive illegally.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

And these would be those that I would say are the Gadiantons within the 'other' government.

They are among us.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

And now I know why I feel like a minority among a minority...

I really am...

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

If we knew how true that is!

Some things to consider:

What % hold a temple recommend?
What percent of those have their year supply?
What percent of those are awake regarding secret combinations?
What percent of those have made such personal sacrifices as yourself?

Now think of the responsibility that places on your shoulders!

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Yeah, that is why eventually we have to head for the hills...

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

The remnant will be purified.

[ChelC]

That's so depressing. I now need to go bake something because I went straight from reading about childhood mental illness to this.

Need a good cry and a brownie or something.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

What's more depressing is the many many who feel that way but are dishonest with themselves and won't come to grips with their own damnation necessary to work through it.

It brings back to mind how hard it is going to church for many of us and the reasons that is so.

Emotional honesty is so necessary in this day of apathy! See also the talk "Truth Is the Issue"
by Elder F. Enzio Busche of the Seventy
Ensign (CR), November 1993, p.24

In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, verse 4, we read, And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.
This message of warning reminds us that we human beings are spiritual children of a Father in Heaven, who is the author and finisher of all truth, and that we are lost in this earthly, fallen state unless we allow the Light of Christ, or the Spirit of truth, to become our constant and infinite guide.

In the message of the Restoration, we learn that during our mortal life our agency is tested through the inseparable connection of our spirit with the elements of this earth, the flesh, or the natural man (see D&C 88:15). By this revelation we not only understand the cause of mankinds misery, but we also receive the keys and power that enable us to end this misery once and for all. As our mind is opened through our study of the plan of salvation, each of us comes to see that our life means that the real me, or the spiritual child of God, created in innocence and beauty, is engaged in a fight for life or death with the elements of the earth, the flesh, which, in its present unredeemed state, is enticed and influenced by the enemy of God.

From the revelations of the Book of Mormon, we know that this enemy fights with all fury and cunningness to make all men miserable like unto himself (see 2 Ne. 2:27). It is Jesus Christ who, through His light, is searching and finding each individual child of God who is yearning and fighting for righteousness and truth and who is crying for help. Without Christ, this war within us is lost. Without Christs plan of redemption and His atoning sacrifice, we all would have been lost. We knew that before we came to this earth, and we can sense it again, when through the Light of Christ our minds are quickened with understanding (see D&C 88:11).

The issue is truth, my dear brothers and sisters, and the only way to find truth is through uncompromising self-education toward self-honesty to see the original real me, the child of God, in its innocence and potential in contrast to the influence from the other part of me, the flesh, with its selfish desires and foolishness. Only in that state of pure honesty are we able to see truth in its complete dimension. Honesty may not be everything, but everything is nothing without honesty. In its final state, honesty is a gift of the Spirit through which the true disciples of Christ feel the force to bear testimony of the truth in such a powerful way that it penetrates the very core of our existence.

One great example of the effect of the preaching of the prophets is recorded in the Book of Mormon. King Benjamin, out of love and concern for the welfare of his people, preaches the truth of the plan of salvation. He does this in such an uncompromising, pure way that the people come to a complete awareness of their nothingness and their worthless and fallen state (see Mosiah 4:5). This last step of awareness of honesty, where we see ourselves in our sinful, mortal existence, causes the people of King Benjamin to cry aloud with one voice, O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins (Mosiah 4:2).

Initiated by the hearing of the word of truth, a disciple of Christ is therefore constantly, even in the midst of all regular activities, striving all day long through silent prayer and contemplation to be in the depth of self-awareness to keep him in the state of meekness and lowliness of heart. It is the prophet Moroni who points out that because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love (Moro. 8:26).

With this enlightened understanding of the deadly battlefront inside of us, we are painfully aware that we can only ask for and receive the help of the Lord, as the God of truth, under the condition of complete and relentless self-honesty.

This war is a war that has to be fought by all of Heavenly Fathers children, whether they know about it or not. But without a keen knowledge of the plan of salvation, and without the influence of the divine Light of Christ to bring us awareness, this war is being fought subconsciously, and therefore its battlefronts are not even known to us, and we have no chance to win. Wars in the inner self that are fought subconsciously, with unknown battlefronts, lead to defeats which also hurt us subconsciously. These defeats are reflected in our conscious life as expressions of misery, such as a lack of self-confidence, lack of happiness and joy, lack of faith and testimony, or as overreactions of our subconscious self, which we see then as pride, arrogance, or in other forms of misbehavior even as acts of cruelty and indecency.

No! There is no salvation without Christ, and Christ cannot be with us unless we pay the price of the constant fight for self-honesty.
One of the great tragedies we see in our lives is that the adversary, through the influences of our flesh, can cheat us into establishing images of truth or perceptions of truth. Our brain, the great computer where all the facts of lifes memories are held together, can also be programmed by the flesh, with its self-centered ideas to deceive the spiritual self. Without the constant striving through prayer and contemplation to reach the ends of self-awareness and honesty, our so-called intellect can, therefore, based on look-alike truths, play many games of reason, to impress, to get gain, to intimidate, or even to manipulate truth with the vain results of deceit.

Of such, the Apostle Paul wrote: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, proud, blasphemers, unholy,
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 3:2, 5, 7).

All learning leads to nothing unless it is centered on finding the roots of truth, which cannot be received without first becoming honest. In such striving, we suddenly know how to pray. Paul says, For we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us (Rom. 8:26).

Enlightened by the Spirit of truth, we will then be able to pray for the increased ability to endure truth and not to be made angry by it (see 2 Ne. 28:28). In the depth of such a prayer, we may finally be led to that lonesome place where we suddenly see ourselves naked in all soberness. Gone are all the little lies of self-defense. We see ourselves in our vanities and false hopes for carnal security. We are shocked to see our many deficiencies, our lack of gratitude for the smallest things. We are now at that sacred place that seemingly only a few have courage to enter, because this is that horrible place of unquenchable pain in fire and burning. This is that place where true repentance is born. This is that place where the conversion and the rebirth of the soul are happening. This is the place where the prophets were before they were called to serve. This is the place where converts find themselves before they can have the desire to be baptized for the remission of their sins. This is the place where sanctifications and rededications and renewal of covenants are happening. This is the place where suddenly the atonement of Christ is understood and embraced. This is the place where suddenly, when commitments have solemnly been established, the soul begins to sing the song of redeeming love and indestructible faith in Christ is born (Alma 5:26). This is the place where we suddenly see the heavens open as we feel the full impact of the love of our Heavenly Father, which fills us with indescribable joy. With this fulfillment of love in our hearts, we will never be happy anymore just by being ourselves or living our own lives. We will not be satisfied until we have surrendered our lives into the arms of the loving Christ, and until He has become the doer of all our deeds and He has become the speaker of all our words. As He has said,
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing (John 15:5).

Let us, therefore, listen, my dear brothers and sisters, to the voice of warning. And let us embrace the Spirit of truth that we may stand blameless through the atonement of our Lord. I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

That's so depressing. I now need to go bake something because I went straight from reading about childhood mental illness to this.

Need a good cry and a brownie or something.

Funny LOL I suddenly wanted Milk Duds after reading about this site LOL (Still don't have any, but still!) LOL

[ChelC]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20327909/wi ... ?GT1=10252

For whoever needs cheering up.

[ChelC]

LC if you like chocolate and caramel, try these:

http://www.recipezaar.com/46003

This recipe is pretty much the same as mine and they are awesome. Mmmmm....

[jbalm]

That forum is one of the saddest things I've seen for a while. I've left anti-Mormon forums with a better feeling than that one. Maybe its the deceit.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

"Men are that they might have joy."

I thought this was supposed to be fun!

I remember a missionary I went on splits with on my mission. He had served 18 months already between a foreign mission and time at home getting surgery. He was very honest and straight forward with me and told me that he sat on the docks while his friends went out water skiing (which he loved) because he was still a missionary. He lived the rules while at home which would be very difficult. In short he was a good and honest guy. After his surgery he was re-assigned to our mission to finish out the remaining time. I remember him telling me how bad it sucked and how he wanted to just go home. He wasn't doing anything wrong either, it just wasn't fun the constant rejection and ridicule, the horrible companions etc... I told him I had no such delusions, that if I thought it was supposed to be fun I would have left along time ago. He left the next week.

Very sad, I hope he is okay now.

Really though, it should be fun. It should be the way Joseph made it! I think we have learned to make it that way. I think we have a tremendous burden to lighten others loads in that way.

Yet another reason I long for a cleansing whether I make it or not.

"Anyone who imagines that bliss is normal is going to waste a lot of time running around shouting that he has been robbed. The fact is that most putts don’t drop, most beef is tough, most children grow up to be just like people, most successful marriages require a high degree of mutual toleration, and most jobs are more often dull than otherwise. Life is just like an old time rail journey ... delays, sidetracks, smoke, dust, cinders, and jolts, interspersed only occasionally by beautiful vistas and thrilling bursts of speed. The trick is to thank the Lord for letting you have the ride."

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Gordon_B._Hinckley

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

http://www.Josephtoldthetruth.com

[Stephen]

That's interesting that they chose "New Order"...sounds like "New World Order" Mormons. Which would be an accurate title.

I did look through a poston their forum. How monumentally sad. Some guy reported that he was the Gospel Doctrine teacher...and he told his bishop that he didn't believe that the BOM ever happened...that the events in it were all fabricated....but that it would help people to come closer to Christ. According to this guy his bishop said that it was no problem!!! As long as people were coming closer to Christ!... Unreal. The bulk of the forum applauded that great bishop.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Do you think that the church knows about this site and those that claim to be in the leadership that have lost testimonies?

Not sure how they could ever find out who they are and if they are telling the truth, but I would be very bothered to have a bishop that thought that belief was not a problem and let a teacher that feels that way teach a majority of the adults.

[cjex]

It makes me sick to see them in this state... so sad, so lost. If you have any brownies left I think I could use one or two to self medicate. It dose bring another thing to mind how ever.... Im even more glad/thankful for my testimony and really Im glad for all ya'll, (translation: all of you guys ) anyway while Im praying for them Ill thank Him again for you.

[BroJones]

Some years ago, I began a study of horse-bone samples in the Americas, using carbon-14 methods to search for pre-Columbian horses. As I made the proposal, a professor of anthropology came to see me, to try to dissuade me from making the study. He said candidly that he was a member of the bishopric but did not believe the Book of Mormon to be a true (historical) book. I later heard from a student who took a class from him that he disparaged the Book of Mormon. He retired, I understand, at the usual age.

Strange world...

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

yeah... very strange. Seems to get stranger all the time. I just got back from a Ron Paul a thon here, and that was eye opening.. they even have songs about the Chemtrails and what they are. The owner of http://www.thepowerhour.com was there, sang it for us.. LOL