Force and Agency

[davedan]

Is force always bad? In religion it is. However, Law = Morality, Religion = love/persuasion, Government = fear/force? Since Government operates by fear and force, force of itself cannot be inherently bad, can it?

The Book of Mormon teaches 1. We are not free unless enticed by both sides (2Ne2:16) 2. Laws punished sins and made people fear to break laws (Alma 1:17-18) 3. Satan persuadeth none to do good. What about " forcing" to do good? (Moroni 7:17).

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What is Satans plan against agency? Same as it is today: "Do as you will". No right and wrong, Korihor doctrine of Social Darwinism.

Everyone would return because Satan proposed to do away with right and wrong and let eveyone do whatever they could get away with. In this system the powerful would enslave and control the weak in Satan's pyramid system. Satan would be top of the pyramid and we would become his slaves. none would be lost. The ultimate Exchange of liberty for safety.

The rules empower us to become like God. Christ empowers us to repent and keep the rules. Satan wanted to destroy our agency by destroying the rules and removing the consequences of sin. A free society rewards righteousness and entices against and punishes when we violate the liberties of others.

[ChelC]

I have been thinking about this also.

In the other thread OI mentioned that he agrees we have the collective right to do something about a murderer. Why? He was smart enough not to answer that question. I agree we have that right, but I think the why is important. We need to understand what gives us the collective right to protect by force, under which circumstances we should, and to what degree.

I believe that if our Constitution allows us to suspend a person's rights under certain circumstances we need to have a firm grasp of why, and understand how and if it relates to non violent rights violations.

[ChelC]

And by the way, excellent post! :ymapplause:

We have freedom and liberty BY strictly adhering to laws. The idea that having the ability to engage in sin without earthly consequences is liberty is a lie.

[chase]

Law = Morality?

[Juliette]

By President James E. Faust:

Satan has had great success with this gullible generation. As a consequence, he and his angels have victimized literally hosts of people. There is, however, an ample shield against the power of Lucifer and his hosts. This protection lies in the spirit of discernment through the gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift comes undeviatingly by personal revelation to those who strive to obey the commandments of the Lord and to follow the counsel of the living prophets.

[Thomas]

Explain to me why it's wrong to force the United Order on people than. It is a commandment. It is a moral issue that hurts many. Yet we know it is a sin to force it on people.

I believe, as a society, we have the right to enforce moral laws that endanger the society as whole, and as individuals. Where to draw the line is a tough question.

I think it was Satan's plan to force us to be good, not remove consequence of sin. I don't think you can remove consequence of sin. Jesus has paid the price for sin but has not removed the consquence. We have the opportunity to progress, inspite of our sin, because Jesus paid the price. We must learn to be free of sin in order to be like God and our Savior. We cannot continue to sin and be like them.

The consquence of sin is a natural thing, like a law of physics. We cannot escape it by decree of any authority. We are what we are. We are either sinners or we are not. Sinners cannot be Gods, thus Satan's plan was to force.

We can be more like Christ, if we want to be like him. We will try our best to live the commandments. That is why force will not work. That is why we must not use force unless we have no choice. Those that are forced do not recive that mighty change of heart. They may be free of sin but on the inside, they could be full of rage and hate. This is not the path towards becoming like Chirst, It stalls the progression of those who are forced.

[marc]

Excellent post, davedan.


Moses 4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

[davedan]

Agency has more to do with commandments to follow. and less about being free to do whatever you want.

Following Gods rules and having consequences when we make mistakes makes it so that we are more likely to repent which leads to freedom and eternal life.

Doing whatever you want without immediate consequence leads to eternal captivity and death.

[Thomas]

How do you think God will punish us in the afterlife for sins? What about the question I posed, about the United Order?

[davedan]

Religion should involve no coercion by definition.

Government is all about force and fear by definition only for those who are guilty of violating the liberties of others.

The United Order is an economic system that helps people in a community keep the covenant of consecration. You don't need the United Order to make or keep the covenant. But it helps a community overall live consecration.

The United Order is administered by the Priesthood and thetefore should be 100% voluntary without coercion. The United Order is really just an insurance program. You voluntarily enter into the Order with a neighborhood and agree to support and insure everyone.

The only real difference between our current system and the United Order is 1. You still make and spend your money for your wants and needs as you do now. 2. Excess money goes into common neighborhood fund to cover fire, flood, disability, death. 3. There is no retirement. You work until you are disabled or you die (eat your bread all the days of your life. 4. If an immediate neighbor suffers a tragedy, illness, fire disability, death, United Order funds are available to care for the neighbor. 5. Because this involves immediate neighbors, neighbors you look in the eyes every day are less likely to mooch. 6. Most routine medical and dental ect would be paid outofpocket or "in kind " or by payments. 6. All catastrophic things would be covered.

The United Order would also involve an equitable inflationless Full Reserve Banking and Credit system where borrowers for real bank-repossessable assets like a house can get a simole intetest fee-based loan and make payments and earn equity from day 1. Of they lose their job, payments are deducted from equity until the borrower has lost all equity. The bank then can repossess and recoup loses, this depositors are shielded from the risks of lending.

[Thomas]

So are you saying it's ok to force others to obey moral laws as long as that moral law is not the United Order? If so, what's the difference?

[ChelC]

@ Thomas - It isn't about punishment, it is about protection.

[ChelC]

So are you saying it's ok to force others to obey moral laws as long as that moral law is not the United Order? If so, what's the difference?

Are you saying that it is okay to enforce laws relating to murder, even taking the murderer's right to life, but it isn't okay to enforce laws about lesser violations? If so, what's the difference?

[davedan]

No, moral law is voluntary. United Order is voluntary.

If you attemp suicide, lie to yourself, hurt yourself, do drugs, ect. These are not criminal offenses. they are sin and society should encourage treatment and rehab.

If you assist with another's suicide, murder, lie, rob, or distribute drugs (facilitate abuse); then a Constitutional government should prosecute and have court-ordered forced rehab. Murdered may necessitate capital punishment.

[davedan]

A free society should punish murderers with capital punishment to cause people to fear to violate the rights of others.

In the Book of Mormon: "they durst not murder because of fear of the law".

[Thinker]

Explain to me why it's wrong to force the United Order on people than. It is a commandment. It is a moral issue that hurts many. Yet we know it is a sin to force it on people.

I believe, as a society, we have the right to enforce moral laws that endanger the society as whole, and as individuals. Where to draw the line is a tough question.

I think it was Satan's plan to force us to be good, not remove consequence of sin. I don't think you can remove consequence of sin. Jesus has paid the price for sin but has not removed the consquence. We have the opportunity to progress, inspite of our sin, because Jesus paid the price. We must learn to be free of sin in order to be like God and our Savior. We cannot continue to sin and be like them.

The consquence of sin is a natural thing, like a law of physics. We cannot escape it by decree of any authority. We are what we are. We are either sinners or we are not. Sinners cannot be Gods, thus Satan's plan was to force.

We can be more like Christ, if we want to be like him. We will try our best to live the commandments. That is why force will not work. That is why we must not use force unless we have no choice. Those that are forced do not recive that mighty change of heart. They may be free of sin but on the inside, they could be full of rage and hate. This is not the path towards becoming like Chirst, It stalls the progression of those who are forced.

Well put, & I agree, although I'm not sure about the commandment of the united order.
The power to choose, is of God, not of Satan.
Unquestioning obedience by force is of Satan, not of God.

[Thomas]

No,what I am saying is I don't know where to draw the line. I think government's job is to protect the weak from the strong. The weak need to band together to protect thmselves from be dominated by the strong.

On moral issues, and of course they are all moral issues, I believe we should stay out of enforcing them unless they hurt others. Not living the United Order hurts others. We know it's a sin to force the United Order on people.

[ChelC]

How do laws = force?

[Thomas]

No, moral law is voluntary. United Order is voluntary.

If you attemp suicide, lie to yourself, hurt yourself, do drugs, ect. These are not criminal offenses. they are sin and society should encourage treatment and rehab.

If you assist with another's suicide, murder, lie, rob, or distribute drugs (facilitate abuse); then a Constitutional government should prosecute and have court-ordered forced rehab. Murdered may necessitate capital punishment.

I'm pretty much on the same page as you. I think they are some who think we should criminalize immoral behavior like doing drugs, etc.

[Thomas]

How do laws = force?

We live in a soceity, where you can die for not paying a parking ticket.

[jonesde]

A popular saying is "Satan's plan was to force us to do right". I think this may be incorrect. Is force always bad? In religion it is. However, Law = Morality, Religion = love/persuasion, Government = fear/force? Since Government operates by fear and force, force of itself cannot be inherently bad, can it?

The use of force is a sin and is wrong unless it is justified. There are certain things that people may do that justify other people to use force to defend themselves (ie fight off an attack) or correct a wrong (damage done, something stolen, etc)... basically to counter violation of natural, negative rights (ie the D&C 134:2 rights) in an aggressive manner (ie unjustified).

To make society more civilized we want a more structured way for people to use force to counter aggression, so we organize governments for that purpose. The fact that a government is doing it does NOT justify the force or make it okay, only if the circumstances warrant a response of force is it justified.

This is why we are taught that men are judged according to what they do through government just as much as what they do directly to another person, including supporting government programs that harm other people unjustly.

The Book of Mormon teaches 1. We are not free unless enticed by both sides (2Ne2:16) 2. Laws punished sins and made people fear to break laws (Alma 1:17-18) 3. Satan persuadeth none to do good. I believe Satan doesn't force any to do good either(Moroni 7:17).

http://ldsdoctrine.blogspot.com/2012/04 ... n.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is Satans plan against agency? Same as it is today: "Do as you will". No right and wrong, Korihor doctrine of Social Darwinism.

Everyone would return because Satan proposed to do away with right and wrong and let eveyone do whatever they could get away with. In this system the powerful would enslave and control the weak in Satan's pyramid system. Satan would be top of the pyramid and we would become his slaves. none would be lost. The ultimate Exchange of liberty for safety.

That is not at all what Satan proposed, and I don't know how you could interpret scriptures or prophetic writings that way. It's just plain wrong.

Satan proposed that people not have a choice to do wrong. His plan was not to say that anything a person did was okay, his plan was to make it impossible for people to sin and guarantee everyone follow the path to salvation. Unfortunately he did not understand that we must be influenced by both good and evil in order to choose, and that we must choose in order to learn and grow to become as Heavenly Father is.

I'm sorry, but your attempt to say that liberty-friendly government is like Satan's plan just shows that you didn't learn the basic lessons of primary, let alone the lessons in the temple ceremonies and scriptures about the Plan of Salvation.

The rules empower us to become like God. Christ empowers us to repent and keep the rules. Satan wanted to destroy our agency by destroying the rules and removing the consequences of sin. A free society rewards righteousness and entices against and punishes when we violate the liberties of others.

Again, Satan did not want to remove the consequences of sin, he wanted to remove the ability and option to sin (ie what we call "free agency" which is an environment where we are influenced by both good and evil). All you have to do to eliminate free agency would be to constantly be in the presence or feel the love of God, and you would never be enticed to sin. Those who attain a fullness of the Light of Christ are in just such a position, they are in such constant companionship with God that they do not feel enticements to sin the way the rest of us do.

Your others statements are correct:

- "The rules empower us to become like God": the commandments of God help us to become more like Him and grow closer to Him
- "A free society rewards righteousness and entices against and punishes when we violate the liberties of others": as long as by the "liberties of others" you mean the natural, negative rights as mentioned in D&C 134:2; this is VERY different from the commandments of God that help us to be more like him, and by juxtaposing the two I'm not sure if you understand that distinction

There is a BIG difference between freedom from violation of rights by other people, and freedom from the "flaxen cords" of Satan's binding that we are subjected to if we do not follow the commandments of God. Any religious person who fails to understand this difference will NEVER be able to understand the basic principles of liberty and the proper role of government.

Unfortunately the opposite happens: people want to enforce the commandments of God as an excuse to break some of those commandments, and in doing so they will have things to account for at the judgment bar before Christ himself. If this is you, please repent and do not join the many who call themselves "Christian" but are thieves and murderers in their hearts, and live by stealing and killing while deceiving others in an attempt to justify their gross and wicked sins.

[ChelC]

How do laws = force?

We live in a soceity, where you can die for not paying a parking ticket.

I've said before in another thread, let's talk about appropriate consequences for things, but the answer to having many dumb laws and many ill conceived punishments is not abandoning all law.

[ChelC]

The use of force is a sin and is wrong unless it is justified. There are certain things that people may do that justify other people to use force to defend themselves (ie fight off an attack) or correct a wrong (damage done, something stolen, etc)... basically to counter violation of natural, negative rights (ie the D&C 134:2 rights) in an aggressive manner (ie unjustified).

What gives us the right to use force under those circumstances?

[jonesde]

How do laws = force?

Maybe this was a rhetorical question to prove a point... if so I apologize for missing that point (and could you try again with it?).

Do you mean laws as in commandments of God, or as in laws of governments of men?

If you mean the second, then it wouldn't be correct to say that laws equal force... laws are just words on paper that people who call themselves "government" use to legally justify applying force on other people.

What happens when you break a law of government and they go after you for it (whether through a court or not... these days it is often not)? You are subjected to force. Being required to pay a fine, or even taxes, is being subjected to force. That force will be taken as far as needed to get either your compliance, or your life.

Even parking and traffic tickets and backed by force. If you don't pay them, what happens? They will pile on fees and fines and interest, and they will eventually issue a warrant for your arrest. If you refuse to pay, you will eventually be charged with a crime and imprisoned. If you refuse to go to prison, and resist the arrest, they will beat you into submission. If you try to use force to defend yourself against it, they will respond with greater force until you are taken against your will or killed (and these days you do NOT get the benefit of the doubt when you resist, and if you resist with anything that might harm an officer chances are you'll be shot).

That is why people say laws are force, or that government operates by force. There is no government program or policy that is not backed by force. Even those that are "public services" are at least funded by force. And in those, when you interact with people (including teachers, parks dept. gardeners, etc) they quickly resort to force if you don't do what they think you should. It is a cult of force from top to bottom. Even walking into the post office try reading the signs and see how many times you are threatened with force before making it to the counter to conduct your "business"... heck you can't even enter the parking lot or park in a spot there without seeing at least 2 signs threatening force (these signs are for federal law so they are at pretty much all post offices).

Of course, if you comply with everything there is no force applied to you, because the threat of force has been sufficient. On the other hand, these days it is literally impossible to know all of the laws that you are required to follow, and EVERYONE breaks minor and major laws EVERYDAY. There are literally hundreds of thousands of federal, state, and local laws that we are all subject to, more than a person can read in a lifetime. The IRS Code itself is 10 times the size of the Bible, and so complex that no individual (even at the IRS) understands all of it, and in fact it is enforced very inconsistently. And that is one of a few hundred agencies that govern every aspect of our lives, and that can (and do) go after anyone whenever they want to, even on the flimsiest of evidence.

If you don't see the force in all of this... you are either part of the problem and are suffering from cognitive dissonance (which I know is the case for some people on this forum, especially many those who work for or through government), or you have simply lived a really blessed and isolated and innocent life (which is REALLY great if that's the case).

[Thomas]

ChelC wrote:
I've said before in another thread, let's talk about appropriate consequences for things, but the answer to having many dumb laws and many ill conceived punishments is not abandoning all law.

I agree. I think where we draw the line is the question. I am not in favor of the total libertarian view. We cannot let someone own the whole earth or peddle porn to kids. I do think we need to preserve agency as much as possible. Right now this country has more people in prison than any other country in the world and I think we are getting more wicked. not more righteous.

Laws in this country, no matter how trivial have the power of life and death for us. We should be careful about making them. Too many are losing their lives over petty things. several years ago,an eighty year old women in UT county was given a black eye and brusises in the face for not clearing weeds in her yard. A man in West Valley was shot and killed for asking police why they were parked in front of his house.

We already have way more laws than we need. Laws don't make people righteous.