LDS Freedom Forum

I have been uncharacteristically angry on the forums lately. And I find some wisdom in the words of Yoda, diminutive Jedi master.

"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

I want to make it clear that I don't hate anyone here on LDSFF. In some I am disappointed, with some I am indeed angry. And this is not by way of apology, some might think I am not big enough to apologize. Well, it is an apology, but in the classic sense. In other words, it is a defense, no saying I am sorry. Because I am not sorry, and my anger is out of fear. And that fear is not for my sake but for the sake of those who I am angry with.

I believe that the sifting has begun. I believe that the time for sitting on the fence is drawing to an end and that things are rapidly coming to a point of choosing sides. I have seen indications of this on the forums, and I have also seen it in various events going on throughout the world.

As any of you who are parents know, there is probably very little that a child can do to make you more angry than when they do something that makes you fear for them. If you are a good parent, I believe that you can roll with the punches when a child perhaps does not give you the respect that you feel that you deserve, or does any of a million annoying things - but when they do something that makes you fear for their eternal salvation - if you are like me, that is when you are most likely to be angry. And I do not feel it is inappropriate at such times to "reprove with sharpness" but it is important to follow that with an increased display of love "lest he esteem thee his enemy."

There have been a few on the forums that I have become very angry with. There are some that I disagree with and have disagreed with for some time. And I am not angry with them, nor do I feel that they are angry with me. I do not fear for them because I do feel that they have studied things out, have reached different conclusions than me, and that is fine, that is part of agency, I love them and appreciate their points of view. In some cases they have helped me change my thinking, hopefully for the better.

And of course I amnot angry with those that I agree for the most part with. It is hard to be angry with someone that feels the same way as you do.

However, there are two groups that I have become quite angry with and that anger is out of fear. Not out of fear of the consequences that I will bear due to their opinions, but fear of the consequences that they are unwisely bringing upon themselves, in my opinion.

The first group are those who clearly have not done their homework, but are very set in their opinions. These are the sideline cheerleaders, who obviously think that the issues that we discuss here are a game, they don't understand the game or the stakes involved, all they know is which team they are supporting, and their "job" as they see it, is to cheer on their team, adding little or nothing of value to the discussion, but merely to cheer on anyone that supports them and even more to call foul or in any other way demonize or demoralize their opponents. I truly fear for such. I urge you to study, ponder and pray, put in the effort necessary to at least have an educated opinion on matters, rather than being ruled by emotion and being a tool of the media manipulators.

The other group that I fear for and that I have felt anger towards are the self-appointed intellectual elite on the forums. Many of these obviously have a very powerful intellect, have done a lot of study, but they use the forums as a means to either show-off their abilities or to hone them. In other words, they seek debate, and it does not seem it is to test their ideas as much as it is to develop their argumentation skills, and to be able to win any side of an argument. I feel that they do not give the issues that they discuss, not consider the effect they have on others in leading them astray. Like those in group one, they seem to think that it is just a game (although they have educated themselves and know the rules and possible even the stakes, they appear not to then give the matter it's due seriousness.)

And I realize of course that this is a very judgemental post. It is one I have struggled with making. I hope those that I have expressed anger with realize that the anger comes from a very real and serious concern that I have for you. I hope that I can engage in meaningful discussion with you in the future that we can together seek after truth.

I am also so appreciative of the many supportive PMs I have gotten over the last few weeks. Some from people who agree with me, but also with some who I disagree on many things. I do hope that the rough patch the LDSFF have gone through in recent weeks comes to an end and that we can focus more on meaningful gospel and freedom discussions, and that we can all bicker less and discuss more. I certainly don't intend to imply I didn;t have my part in the bickering; I was a huge contributor to the problems. I do not believe in saying "I'm sorry" when I don't feel sorry or sorrow - and in this case I do not feel sorry for anything I have said - but I do hope that this explanation serves as an olive branch towards those I have offended.

If Yoda spoke French, he would say "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche".

I also agree with your take on the forum

:ymhug:

Bottom line, OI gets angry with anyone with an opinion that differs from his own, and/or who has more knowledge than he does (doesn't matter the subject).

OI, why get angry over something you have no control over, like other peoples opinions or things you refuse to control yourself, as in becoming better educated, whatever the subject?

Bob

bobhenstra wrote:Bottom line, OI gets angry with anyone with an opinion that differs from his own, and/or who has more knowledge than he does (doesn't matter the subject).

OI, why get angry over something you have no control over, like other peoples opinions or things you refuse to control yourself, as in becoming better educated, whatever the subject?

Bob

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymparty: GO BOBBY!

Juliette wrote:

bobhenstra wrote:Bottom line, OI gets angry with anyone with an opinion that differs from his own, and/or who has more knowledge than he does (doesn't matter the subject).

OI, why get angry over something you have no control over, like other peoples opinions or things you refuse to control yourself, as in becoming better educated, whatever the subject?

Bob

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymparty: GO BOBBY!

Yep, OI, it went right over their heads.

Great quote by Yoda!
I also like theses from him:
“May the Force be with you.”
“Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.”
"Clear your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot."
"Hmm. In the end, cowards are those who follow the dark side."

OriginalIntent,
I also fear for many.
Lately, I've been especially worried for our brothers and sisters who are suffering so much!
Tens of thousands died TODAY of preventable causes & I feel helpless to do more than the little I'm doing!
It breaks my heart to realize those who I put my trust in for my entire life, are contributing to the suffering by not sharing tithes with those in need.
To realize that deception may have been intentional also hurts (Deut 14:28-29 that states 1/3 of tithes are for the poor was left out of lds bible topical guides & dictionaries).
It makes me sad and angry & frustrated when people don't think for themselves, but unquestiongly obey, as the plan of Satan was.
When it involves the suffering of my family & friend (either mentally/emotionally/spiritually or financially) I am especially upset.

I'm not perfect.
I make mistakes every day & I know I often could have phrased things in posts, better than I have & I apologize.
I want to be an instrument for good - but I know sometimes my fear or anger gets in the way.
Sometimes I need to actively love & do my best through trial & error (active faith).
And sometimes I need to "be still and know that I am God."

O.I. = Ron Paul supporter
Bob & Juliette = Mitt Romney supporter #-o
Bob & Juliette do not like O.I.

'Nough said.

Truth B Known wrote:O.I. = Ron Paul supporter
Bob & Juliette = Mitt Romney supporter #-o
Bob & Juliette do not like O.I.

'Nough said.

I think you've got it backwards. Ya know Truth, you don't agree with anything I say, correct? I am the first to admit I cannot argue politics. I have spent my life raising children and working in the church. This is my first attempt at anything political. So back to my point. Even though you and I want different candidates, I don't ever feel terribly offended when we dissagree. You can laugh at yourself and have a kind way about you.
I wish OI would just let this go and stop trying to get sympathy from the forum. Bob spotted immediately what was going on.

Juliette wrote:

bobhenstra wrote:Bottom line, OI gets angry with anyone with an opinion that differs from his own, and/or who has more knowledge than he does (doesn't matter the subject).

OI, why get angry over something you have no control over, like other peoples opinions or things you refuse to control yourself, as in becoming better educated, whatever the subject?

Bob

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymparty: GO BOBBY!

Extremely immature when OI was sincerely trying to be mature. Very disappointing :ymsigh:

God's Army wrote:

Juliette wrote:

bobhenstra wrote:Bottom line, OI gets angry with anyone with an opinion that differs from his own, and/or who has more knowledge than he does (doesn't matter the subject).

OI, why get angry over something you have no control over, like other peoples opinions or things you refuse to control yourself, as in becoming better educated, whatever the subject?

Bob

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymparty: GO BOBBY!

Extremely immature when OI was sincerely trying to be mature. Very disappointing :ymsigh:

Bob is not immature, trust me! =))

Juliette wrote:Bob is not immature, trust me! =))

It was a bit immature (the elerly and parents are not immune to immaturity) and yours was even more so. You did exactly what OI was talking about in just picking a side while not contributing anything. It seems like your responses were intended for bickering when OI cleary says he wants to stop the bickering. That's what makes it immature. And Moonwhim seems to have been right when he said it went right over your heads.
I'm tired of watching this go back and forth, and the only one trying to be the bigger person and put it behind them seems to be OI at the moment.

Yoda also said, "Wars not make one great".

Made me think of this.....

OI- I understood the intent of your post. We all have that one area, where it is a topic that sends shivers up your spine. A topic where we just can't wrap our heads around why someone could be so blind as not to see, so deaf as not to hear or so dumb as not to speak (at least logically).

One thing that I have learned over the many years of being an outspoken person on topics that have raised eyebrows, I have learned that you state your position as clearly as you can, with examples if possible and then leave the rest in the hands of the individual you are speaking to. This could take several discussions before it gets to this point, but eventually it does come.

As recently shown in another thread, no matter the information that is shared, there is always going to be an opposition to it. I think I have finally learned after being a witness to much sorrow and heartache and being in constant worry for the happiness and safety of others, that honoring agency is absolutely necessary to becoming a God. I have thought a lot about this very thing over the past few months and know that if I do not learn to bridle my desire to "save the world" and intervene where I must not, then I cannot fully become a Goddess because I will want to intervene with my children on earth and therefore deprive them of the experiences of failing and succeeding.

I think more than anything, I hope I am not misrepresenting you, is that your fear really comes from not only worrying about the individual, but how that individuals decisions will ulitmately effect your life???? That is what I am concernend about. When people support candidates that clearly will not protect my civil liberties, that effects me. When people take mind-altering drugs/meds and they do things in society such as school or workplace shootings, etc that effects me. When immorality is shown in every venue of society, that effects me. Yet, this is where God shows his greatest restraint in intervening. Uuuuggghhh, I have a lot yet to learn, but I wanted you to know that I completely understand where you are coming from.

For those who have posted that this is about OI being against Romney supporters, I did not take it that way. I took it that he was taking a hard look at where his anger and fear comes from and why. I think we could all take a hard look at ourselves in this way. I am definately going to take that example and do better at being more patient.

As recently shown in another thread, no matter the information that is shared, there is always going to be an opposition to it. I think I have finally learned after being a witness to much sorrow and heartache and being in constant worry for the happiness and safety of others, that honoring agency is absolutely necessary to becoming a God. I have thought a lot about this very thing over the past few months and know that if I do not learn to bridle my desire to "save the world" and intervene where I must not, then I cannot fully become a Goddess because I will want to intervene with my children on earth and therefore deprive them of the experiences of failing and succeeding.

For those who have posted that this is about OI being against Romney supporters, I did not take it that way. I took it that he was taking a hard look at where his anger and fear comes from and why. I think we could all take a hard look at ourselves in this way. I am definitely going to take that example and do better at being more patient.

Agreed...and I think this applies to quite a lot of strenuous discussions/arguments on the forum...

Is person A trying valiantly to nobly warn others about a (perceived at least to him) problem in Church/nation/candidate? Or is person A just trying to destroy hope, faith, and confidence in such? -Either as a private individual or an outside activist (gov't agent, anti/New Order/Ex-Mormon,etc.)?

Is person B being willfully ignorant/sticking head in sand because he doesn't accept person A's warnings/rantings because he doesn't want to face reality, etc? Or is person B secure & confident in his own faith/confidence/hope in what he believes, because he has studied it out in his own mind and received the spiritual confirmation of the Holy Ghost?

Apply these to whatever the issue is....Are you A? Are you B? What perception do you hold of yourself, and of the other person? What perception do they have of you? Did you create a perception that helps your case, or does it hinder and become a stumbling block to understanding each other?

"The fault, dear Brutus, lie in ourselves...."

God's Army wrote:I'm tired of watching this go back and forth, and the only one trying to be the bigger person and put it behind them seems to be OI at the moment.

You're tired of the back and forth so then you post a "back" or a "forth"?

OI has his opinions just like everyone else and he shares them like everyone else and he disagrees with many opinions here just like everyone else so his post is really nothing at all-

"I certainly don't intend to imply I didn't have my part in the bickering; I was a huge contributor to the problems. I do not believe in saying "I'm sorry" when I don't feel sorry or sorrow - and in this case I do not feel sorry for anything I have said - but I do hope that this explanation serves as an olive branch towards those I have offended."

What does that even mean? "Hey, I'm part of the problem AND I'M NOT SORRY!" Alrighty then :ymcowboy:

Just when I think the world can't get any crazier my friends at the FF never disappoint =))

liberty_belle wrote:OI- I understood the intent of your post. We all have that one area, where it is a topic that sends shivers up your spine. A topic where we just can't wrap our heads around why someone could be so blind as not to see, so deaf as not to hear or so dumb as not to speak (at least logically).

One thing that I have learned over the many years of being an outspoken person on topics that have raised eyebrows, I have learned that you state your position as clearly as you can, with examples if possible and then leave the rest in the hands of the individual you are speaking to. This could take several discussions before it gets to this point, but eventually it does come.

As recently shown in another thread, no matter the information that is shared, there is always going to be an opposition to it. I think I have finally learned after being a witness to much sorrow and heartache and being in constant worry for the happiness and safety of others, that honoring agency is absolutely necessary to becoming a God. I have thought a lot about this very thing over the past few months and know that if I do not learn to bridle my desire to "save the world" and intervene where I must not, then I cannot fully become a Goddess because I will want to intervene with my children on earth and therefore deprive them of the experiences of failing and succeeding.

I think more than anything, I hope I am not misrepresenting you, is that your fear really comes from not only worrying about the individual, but how that individuals decisions will ulitmately effect your life???? That is what I am concernend about. When people support candidates that clearly will not protect my civil liberties, that effects me. When people take mind-altering drugs/meds and they do things in society such as school or workplace shootings, etc that effects me. When immorality is shown in every venue of society, that effects me. Yet, this is where God shows his greatest restraint in intervening. Uuuuggghhh, I have a lot yet to learn, but I wanted you to know that I completely understand where you are coming from.

For those who have posted that this is about OI being against Romney supporters, I did not take it that way. I took it that he was taking a hard look at where his anger and fear comes from and why. I think we could all take a hard look at ourselves in this way. I am definately going to take that example and do better at being more patient.

So much that you posted shows that you understand exactly where I was coming from, the only part that you missed completely was in your second to last paragraph. the fear is not based on the effect it will have on me, or even my family and others. No the truth is, the fear and the anger comes not from the opinions, it is that I know behind these user names is a person, a child of God, and I sincerely believe that some of the opinions I am seeing expressed bear eternal, damning consequences. And no, I am not talking about voting for Mitt Romney - however, some of the reasons I have seen for voting for Mitt Romney, or worse some of the ideas I have seen expressed regarding the proper role of government, for instance the case being made that government is established for the purpose of forcing people to be good (and Captain Moroni being held forth as an example of this.) such a belief if not repented of will bear eternal and negative consequences. People argue that the Constitution is only able to govern a righteous people (TRUE!) and then they take Satan's position from the War in Heaven. I consider myself a decently manly man, but it brings a lump to my throat and tears to my eyes, literally. And it is nothing so silly as "I am losing an argument on the internet." It reminds me much more of my mission experience, and having an investigator tell you that they know the gospel is the truth, but they will not be baptized because of _____. Do you think I care if some guy named Bob Henstra thinks he is vastly smarter and wiser than me? No! And in many regards he probably is. And I don't get angry with Bob, even though he likes to try to provoke me (in a friendly, jab kind of way i hope, because that is how I take it.) And I don;t have bad feelings for Bob for supporting Mitt Romney because I believe he has evaluated, used his agency, etc. And Bob is so far ahead of us in some things that I doubt erring on a presidential vote will be any big deal. Assuming he is wrong, knowing Bob he will listen while it is explained to him, admit his mistake, and move on.

So, the people that I get angry with it is not because they disagree with me, and it isn;t because of the consequences that I will have to live with because of their choices. That, sadly is part and parcel of the democracy we live in. And yes, I know it was established as a republic, but we have largely lost it and are suffering a democracy. I get angry when I see people who I ahve come to care about damning themselves. Even if they repent later, how many people will they have either convinced or caused to doubt correct principles?

And of course, it is jsut an internet forum and perhaps I should lighten up. But we discuss issues of eternal importance here. And recently I have been pained to see some of what people think, and have taken evil for good and good for evil. And I sincerely believe that this is the sifting. And it hurts.

That, sadly is part and parcel of the democracy we live in. And yes, I know it was established as a republic, but we have largely lost it and are suffering a democracy.

I thought we were now an empire, masquerading as democracy... :-$

"So this is how Liberty dies, to thunderous applause."
- Senator Padme Amidala, Star Wars III, The Revenge of the Sith :ymdevil:

shadow wrote:

God's Army wrote:I'm tired of watching this go back and forth, and the only one trying to be the bigger person and put it behind them seems to be OI at the moment.

You're tired of the back and forth so then you post a "back" or a "forth"?

I'm talking about the pointless bickering going back and forth. I believe OI was sincere with his post and what Bob and Julliette responded with was sure to start another pointless argument. I try remain neutral but I saw where the bickering was about to start and so I called their attention to it. Nothing more.

shadow wrote:

God's Army wrote:I'm tired of watching this go back and forth, and the only one trying to be the bigger person and put it behind them seems to be OI at the moment.

You're tired of the back and forth so then you post a "back" or a "forth"?

OI has his opinions just like everyone else and he shares them like everyone else and he disagrees with many opinions here just like everyone else so his post is really nothing at all-

"I certainly don't intend to imply I didn't have my part in the bickering; I was a huge contributor to the problems. I do not believe in saying "I'm sorry" when I don't feel sorry or sorrow - and in this case I do not feel sorry for anything I have said - but I do hope that this explanation serves as an olive branch towards those I have offended."

What does that even mean? "Hey, I'm part of the problem AND I'M NOT SORRY!" Alrighty then :ymcowboy:

Just when I think the world can't get any crazier my friends at the FF never disappoint =))

I'd be happy to tell you what it means. In specific, I am very angry at Juliette. I am angry because I like her, regardless of what she thinks. She and I came into conflict from the get go. As I always do, I spoke bluntly with her, but then also extended an invitiation to her that I would help her in any way that I could and provide any resource that I could. This was not about winning her to Ron Paul, it was about helping her to understand some issues that she clearly had no clue about, and that she had expressed some interest in learning. So while I am not sorry for anything I said, I am sorry that it drove her to the point that she wanted nothing to do with me. And lest I come across as laying the blame at her feet alone, I take responsibility for being a terrible messenger, for not getting to know her better before I threw cold water on her to wake her up.

Now I will go one step further and really offend everyone. Did Nephi contribute to the problems he had with his brothers? Methinks yes, he could have held back on a few occasions and not spoken such "hard things" against them. And I believe that on several occasions he expressed the sorrow, fear etc. that he felt for his brothers sake. (Maybe even anger (?)) And of curse now I expect to be accused of pride that I would compare myself to Nephi, or that I would insinuate that Juliette was "Laman-ish" or "Lemuel-ish". So let's be clear - it's an example only to show that you can contribute to a problem but not have anything you should say you are sorry for. (And for the record, this example is infinitely more applicable to this situation than using Captain Moroni as an example of "government enforced righteousness.")

Did you pick that up shadow? Do you follow?

Truth B Known wrote:O.I. = Ron Paul supporter
Bob & Juliette = Mitt Romney supporter #-o
Bob & Juliette do not like O.I.

'Nough said.

Lol Flagg, your opinion here is priceless! Uh, that'd be "not worth a cent!" =))

Bobby

Maybe its the philosophy that freedom and liberty are possible without God? Isn't that basically the summary on libertarianism? Mostly correct principles? Discussions on liberty while the strippers circulate among the audience?

Principles appealing to the natural man? Twisted to be all focusing on agency all while ignoring the Creator and one who bestowed us with that agency?

Now I will go one step further and really offend everyone. Did Nephi contribute to the problems he had with his brothers? Methinks yes, he could have held back on a few occasions and not spoken such "hard things" against them. And I believe that on several occasions he expressed the sorrow, fear etc. that he felt for his brothers sake. (Maybe even anger (?)) And of curse now I expect to be accused of pride that I would compare myself to Nephi, or that I would insinuate that Juliette was "Laman-ish" or "Lemuel-ish". So let's be clear - it's an example only to show that you can contribute to a problem but not have anything you should say you are sorry for. (And for the record, this example is infinitely more applicable to this situation than using Captain Moroni as an example of "government enforced righteousness.")

Even better - Joseph in Egypt...a teenage boy telling his family about dreams which meant they would all bow down to him, and he would exalted above them (even his Father & Mother).... and THIS example is used quite frequently in the Church about when NOT to talk/how NOT to come across....

And there are the Saints in Missouri - who antagonized their neighbors by (basically) carelessly telling them how they are setting up Zion there, and everyone better like it or leave...


No OI - I don't think you are either of these examples....but don't feel bad about using Nephi as one, either...

Legion wrote:Maybe its the philosophy that freedom and liberty are possible without God? Isn't that basically the summary on libertarianism? Mostly correct principles? Discussions on liberty while the strippers circulate among the audience?

Principles appealing to the natural man? Twisted to be all focusing on agency all while ignoring the Creator and one who bestowed us with that agency?

Recipes for disaster.... the question is, would it be better than the tyranny of the Leviathan state? Or would the tyranny of the eventual mobs/lawlessness be worse?
Hobbes vs Robspierre?

Legion wrote:Maybe its the philosophy that freedom and liberty are possible without God? Isn't that basically the summary on libertarianism? Mostly correct principles? Discussions on liberty while the strippers circulate among the audience?

Principles appealing to the natural man? Twisted to be all focusing on agency all while ignoring the Creator and one who bestowed us with that agency?

Outstanding definition of Libertarianism: Discussions on liberty while the strippers circulate among the audience!

May I quote you???

Bobby