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Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 8:11 am
by Thinker
jonesde wrote:There are definitely some good "charities" including the micro-loan concept (as long as they are done on generous terms), and things like Heifer International that includes a major pay-it-forward component so that it grows based on consideration for others, on real charity, and is self-sustaining.

Would you give money to other charities, if so which ones? For those charities what have you looked into to make sure they are not corrupted and doing harm, perhaps even more harm than good?

So many large charities are simply avenues for wealthy people to channel money for political and social purposes, and sometimes in that channeling of money they fund significant harm. The Bill Gates quote about reducing populations through charity work is a great example of that, and of course there are many others.
Good points, Jonesde.
We have to be careful about just tossing money at charity organizations.
Sometimes they are corrupt, or don't understand the real needs & try to assume our values on their culture.
I respect charities who are open financially about where money goes, as are many on "Charity Navigator."

Personally, I've traveled to poor areas & got to know people there, so I give directly to a family (& extended family living with them) who are poor & have medical needs. I also took my kids to give their tithing to a foster-care program & have helped out others in elderly home (it's easier to serve those close by, but those far away are in even more need).

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 8:20 am
by Thinker
Zkulptor wrote:
Thinker wrote:Kathyn,
Your solution to loving others as ourselves is to "Wait for the 2nd coming"???
Why are church leaders hiding finances? What do they have to hide?
Why are they not sharing tithes with the poor, as instructed in Deut 14:28-29?
Why is Deut 14:28-29 left out of LDS bible topical guides and dictionaries?
Oh man.... I am disgusted by your posts man.. seriously.... over and over this is all you seem capable of "thinking" about.... stop blaming others, sell all your stuff and give it to the poor ..
What I do with my finances is really none of your business since you've never paid a cent to me in tithing.
But if an organization is going to require 10% of one's income to be considered worthy & claiming to use it for God's purposes, "in the name of Jesus Christ", they owe those who pay at least the financial transparency to verify if indeed funds are being used that way. Yet finances are hidden & no tithes are shared with the poor. Going along with this is going along with what is contrary to what Jesus Christ taught.

Still, I understand why you're upset with my posts, I would have been too, not too long ago.
We've been taught since babies to never question leaders, which didn't occur to me until recently that is part of Satan's plan.
We've been taught that emotions = spirit. So, there's a cognitive distortion called "Falacy of Emotional Reasoning" that when something bothers you, it's because it's evil & that when you feel good, it's because it's of God. This is dangerous thinking - actually it's not thinking - but just going based on emotion. We are given brains to use, to "study & ponder" it out for ourselves - & then to pray about it.

The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 8:45 am
by marc
Thinker wrote:The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.
With respect to your beliefs, genuine as they may be, I reject this. What would Jesus do? Jesus Christ has directed us already with the restoration. I appreciate your devotion to the Old Testament, but as Book of Mormon prophets have warned, we will be judged not only of books written, but also of books yet to be written. Has prophecy ceased? No. We have the BoM, the Doctrine and Covenants and other modern day scripture along with current revelations. I pay my full tithes and offerings in accordance with today's commandments. What I do with my offerings is between the Lord and me just as what the brethren do with them is between them and the Lord.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 8:50 am
by Thinker
Coachmarc,
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion & hopefully free speech.
In my opinion, Jesus never did and would never keep fiannces dark and secret, nor would he rob the poor of tithes.
Maybe that's just me.

Charity is the only thing that will never fail. - Moroni 7:47
Our church is supposedly "The church of JESUS CHRIST," NOT "The church of leaders."
Jesus taught that as we love others we love God, as we neglect others, we neglect God... and that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves... "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt 22:40

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 9:03 am
by marc
Thinker wrote:Coachmarc,
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion & hopefully free speech.
In my opinion, Jesus never did and would never keep fiannces dark and secret, nor would he rob the poor of tithes.
Maybe that's just me.

Charity is the only thing that will never fail. - Moroni 7:47
Our church is supposedly "The church of JESUS CHRIST," NOT "The church of leaders."
Jesus taught that as we love others we love God, as we neglect others, we neglect God... and that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves... "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt 22:40
Thinker, respectfully, don't sell yourself short because the brethren are not transparent to you and may or may not rob the poor as you claim. Our salvation based on commandments is not based on whether our offerings reach their intended destination through proper channels, but rather that we do make such offerings as commanded of us. Please don't take this as an accusation. Only you know this of yourself and frankly I don't want to know. This is between you and the Lord, but your opinions are very telling. They give you away.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 10:00 am
by LukeAir2008
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Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 10:42 am
by Mark
The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.

I will leave it to all on this forum to determine where your "inspiration" to encourage others to stop paying their tithing to the church as you have done comes from thinker. For me it is a plain as day. #-o

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 11:53 am
by awake
Thinker wrote: But if an organization is going to require 10% of one's income to be considered worthy & claiming to use it for God's purposes, "in the name of Jesus Christ", they owe those who pay at least the financial transparency to verify if indeed funds are being used that way. Yet finances are hidden & no tithes are shared with the poor. Going along with this is going along with what is contrary to what Jesus Christ taught.

Still, I understand why you're upset with my posts, I would have been too, not too long ago.
We've been taught since babies to never question leaders, which didn't occur to me until recently that is part of Satan's plan.
We've been taught that emotions = spirit. So, there's a cognitive distortion called "Falacy of Emotional Reasoning" that when something bothers you, it's because it's evil & that when you feel good, it's because it's of God. This is dangerous thinking - actually it's not thinking - but just going based on emotion. We are given brains to use, to "study & ponder" it out for ourselves - & then to pray about it.

The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.
That is correct. If we are going to be able to judge the fruits or actions, (as we are commanded to) of our leaders, and if they are righteous or not, then we must be able to see that their deeds and works are in accordance with the scriptures, which is very hard to discern if their actions and decisions are kept hidden. For then how would we know for sure?

Great post Thinker. It is true that it's an uncomfortable thought for most members to realize that they must judge and decide for themselves whether all those around them and their leaders 'are righteous or not', or what is right or wrong or true or false. That's more responsibility than most people in the Church want to accept.

It's so much easier to just believe that leaders can never fall or do wrong and that we don't have to worry about it.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 12:16 pm
by Marianebr
Hi guys, my name is Mariane, I'm brazilian.I believe that church leadership is being dishonest, everything will be resolved with the Senhor.Understand Shopping was built for the revitalization of the square temple.Elder Bednar came to my city ​​for two years ago, I know that he and an apostle of the Lord.
I think that judging is not the right thing to do.
This discussion does not lead to nothing but apostasy.I think the burden of our leaders and already very heavy, we will not judge them.
What is mine to do my part.
Sorry for my bad English I used the google translator. :)
Peace.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:29 pm
by kathyn
I recommend that every one here who thinks they know better than the Brethren, read in the Priesthood and Relief Society manual "Teachings of Presidents of the Church--George Albert Smith" Lesson 6 "Sustaining Those Whom the Lord Sustains".

Pres. Smith said, "There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them."

"People who haven't very much information suddenly come along with a bright idea, and they suggest 'this is the way' or 'that is the way'. and although it is in conflict with the advice of the Lord, some are persuaded to try it. The Lord has given safe advice and appointed the President of the Church to interpret that advice. If we ignore what he advises, as the President of the Church, we may discover that we have made a serious mistake."

"I stand here to plead with you, my brethren and sisters, not to permit words of criticism...pass your lips about those whom the Lords has called to lead us.Do not be found in the companionship of those who would belittle them or weaken their influence among the children of men. If you do, I can say to you that you will find yourselves in the power of the adversary. . You will be influenced by him to go as far as possible from the pathway of truth, and if you do not repent you may find when it is too late that you have lost the 'pearl of great price'. Because of your...blindness you will have been led away,....and your loved ones will be sorrowing on the other side of the veil because of your weakness and folly."

I urge all who feel to criticize the The Twelve and the First Presidency to humbly get on your knees and pray with all sincerity to learn how the Lord truly feels about these issues. If you can't sustain the Brethren, you are the one with the problem.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:30 pm
by Loran Blood
The only way I can describe this is to call it nonsense. Their resources are still there, but they have not developed and exploited as they could be because of barriers imposed primarily through government policy.
Who's sources?
Their resources.
In case you didn't look into the references I posted...consider this:
"For every $100 of crude (oil) taken out of the Ecuadorian rain forest; the oil companies receive $75. Of the remaining $25, 3/4 must go to paying off the foreign debt. Most of the remainder covers military and other government expenses - which leaves about $2.50 for health, education and programs aimed at helping the poor. Thus, out of every $100 worth of oil torn from the Amazon, less than $3 goes to the people who need the money most, those whose lives have been so adversely impacted by the damns, the drilling, and the pipelines, and who are dying from lack of edible food and potable water." -John Perkins
I have no specific idea as to the totality of political and economic conditions present in Ecuador, and I doubt that either you or, perhaps even John Perkins, a darling of the leftist, anti-capitalist political and internet world, does either. Looking at the some 850 customer reviews of his book on Amazon, it appears that Perkin's work brings out from under the baseboards both the extreme Left and Right in yet another marriage made in intellectual hell.

The critical reviews are of some interest.

This first is interesting because of the ethnic and national background of its author. Its long and I won't quote it all, but just some salient points:
See the US of America is taking out of contect by Perkins, he forgets all about the bitter cold war fought between 1950-1992, I know because I lived through it. Im a latinamerican and his stories touch close to home, especially the ones about the coup in Guatemala of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman(a socialist), who was overthrown in a coup orchestrated by the Central Intelligence Agency in the 1954 Guatemalan coup d'etat. After his land reform, the CIA intervened because it feared that a socialist government would become a Soviet satellite nation in the Western Hemisphere, such as Cuba and Nicaragua during the Sandinistas rule; Panama`s President Omar Torrijos a leftist dictator died when his aircraft, crashed. It has been widely speculated that his death was a CIA assassination due to his resistance to renegotiate the Panama Canal Treaty, negotiated under the Carter administration, with President Ronald Reagan; Torrijos died shortly after the inauguration of US President Ronald Reagan, just two months after Ecuadorian president Jaime Roldós died in strikingly similar circumstances. Those stories Perkins talks about touch close to home but I can never thank and bless the USA enough for stopping the spread of communism, if you knew anyone escaping from Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, the former Soviet republics you`ll know that the USA saved the day. Communism was the worst ideology that walked the face of the Earth, those people were murdered, alienated by their leaders from the rest of the world and Stalin and Mao Zedong who BTW murdered over 75 millions of their own citizens.

About Israel, Perkins is wrong in this book and on his second book "American Empire". The USA support for Israel come with a heavy price but still the USA does it because is the ritgh and moral thing to do after centuries of antisemitism by the Europeans and second grade cityzenship in the Arab Muslin world. Never Again should we allow another holocaust, bravo for America for standing for the Jews even though it is offending the powerful oil lobby.

Also there`s a lack of documentary or testimonial evidence to corroborate the claim made by Perkins that the NSA was involved in his hiring to Chas T. Main. Lols the NSA "is a cryptological codemaking and code-breaking agency, not an economic organization and that its missions do not involve anything remotely resembling alien abductions or placing economists at private companies in order to increase the debt of foreign countries, the third world have corrupt governments who do it for free, I know I`m from there, borned and raise. Economic historian Niall Ferguson writes in his book The Ascent of Money that Perkins's contention that the leaders of Ecuador President Jaime Roldós Aguilera and Panama General Omar Torrijos were assassinated by US agents for opposing the interests of the owners of their countries' foreign debt "seems a little odd" in light of the fact that in the 1970s the amount of money that the US had lent to Ecuador and Panama accounted for less than 0.4% of the total US grants and loans, while in 1990 the exports from the US to those countries accounted for approximately 0.4% of the total US exports approximately $8 billion. According to Ferguson, those "do not seem like figures worth killing for."

Also if the US is so good at having EHM`s abroad, why are we in this mess since 2007, which included a huge bubble in the US housing market, a subprime mortgage crisis, Wall street gone wild enjoying the deregulation era with Over-the-counter derivatives (OTC), also fueled by soaring oil prices, Lehman's bankruptcy that created a change reaction and moral hazard which followed with the troubles of mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, AIG which was up to its nose with toxic assets A.K.A credit default swaps (CDSs), and many, many more giants of the fiancial system that drunk the Cooley such as Goldman Sachs, Bank of America/Merrill Lynch, JPMorganChase, that needed financial help ASAP. A $787 billion economic stimulus package was needed aimed at helping the economy recover from the deepening recession cause by ex-Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and his non-sense economics, where he BTW find a flaw!!!...Presuming that the self-interest of organizations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their firms...Well does deregulation rings a bell?... Mrs Brooksley born of the The U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission(CFTC) advice everyone back in the 90`s about it,.."The market grew so enormously WITH NO or little oversight and regulation"... but no one listen!, we all drunk the cooley!!!, the CFTC regulation was strenuously opposed by Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, and by Treasury Secretaries Robert Rubin and Lawrence Summers, with Congress in their side, the result was the RECESSION OF 2007-2011 and going...Their response then was to dismissed Born's analysis that CFTC regulation of swaps and other OTC derivatives were unneed in a free market economy, WRONG!WRONG!, and yeah more WRONG!!!

Warren Buffett famously referred to derivatives as "financial weapons of mass destruction" in early 2003.
Needless to say the both Bush and Clinton administrations were ill advice by Mr Greenspan, with unbridled deregulations that came to define the Clinton and Bush eras (1993-2009)and pave the way for disaster. Also did not helped the taking away the Glass-Steagall Act of 1932 provisions that prohibited banks to glamble with the commercial banks regular savings acc., small loans and mortgages, making the new mortgage-backed securities (MBS) into a commodity, enabling them to be traded on futures exchanges with little oversight by any federal or state regulatory body, adding to that, the Securities and Exchange Commission in 2004 waived its leverage rules, under the new regulations, 5 companies - Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, and Morgan Stanley - were granted an exemption, which they promptly used to lever higher...GREEDY too big to fail..

Instead of a good objective book, John Perkins gives a pitifully science fiction novel loaded with anti_USA conspiracies, and speculations tangle together with half truths. Meanwhile Russian(expansionist during the Cold war), Chinese(murdering over 75 millions of their own people, and the illegal occupation of Tibet), Arabs(current Syrian, Iran human right violations as in 2012, etc), African(as in 2012 rape use as a weapon in their wars, ethnic cleansing ), Latin-american(as in 2012 Mexico thorn apart by the Drug cartels, Guatemala ethnic war, Salvadorean gang problem, etc) aggressiveness towards others or their own people goes largely ignore?
GOD bless America
This author thinks Paul Krugman is a good economist, and that deregulation was the cause of the housing market collapse, but the rest of this criticism bears looking at, especially with respect to the perceptions of other critics:

But I can see why this book would hit a nerve here. Its conspiratorial in nature, fundamentally a tell-all anecdotal work, and features deep Israeli control of the American "empire." Its a red, meaty bone for this forum. But let's continue with some other choice comments:
Further, he fails to consider what would happen if the US didn't influence other developing countries to follow a free market method of evolving economically. He doesn't consider examples like Hawaii and the Philippians which have benefitted tremendously from their support and protection by the US. This, considering that both might have fallen under the control of Japan, or later, Red China. It appears those populations have done quite well under American protection. How about the fact that America, at the end of WWII was the only country with the bomb, and could easily have taken over any country it wanted to, but chose not to continue war actions? That unaddressed foreign policy really erodes the whole, "America is an Imperial Force" argument that Perkins defines in the book.

Why would Perkins fail to note that?
Indeed, the above critic zeros in on what I've seen, just taking a cursory look at Perkins popularity in venues such as Democracy Now, Democratic Underground, Indymedia sites, and at the Huffpo, to be his fundamental ideological orientation:
Also, why did Perkins give such minimal note to the repression that went on in Iran when Jimmy Carter allowed the Shah to be deposed and the Ayatolas to take over? Are Iranians better off in a repressive Islamic "Republic"? Would they be better under Russian, Iraqi, or Red Chinese rule? We can say for certain NO in the first case, and almost certainly not in each of the others.

Here's another question: How did Perkins fail to note the American banks that wrote off foreign debt to South and Central American countries in the 1970's and 1980's? Given his hypothesis that America uses debt overload to ensnare small countries and rape them for their raw materials- up to an including invading them when necessary, why didn't we just invade those bad debtors?

You'll hear none of America's success stories or mercies in Perkins' book. Could Central and South America have fallen under Soviet control without successful US foreign policy? You bet, and I have force recon marine friends who were there in Central America watching soviet tanks on the ground in the 1970's. How well did those foreign empires treat the indigenous peoples they interacted with? You won't hear a word about THAT from Perkins.

No, you will only hear him bash American oil companies, the US Government (but only conservative administrations like Reagan's and Bush's), American Christian missionaries, his consulting company MAIN, and finally, himself. Perkins also fails to discuss the attempt by Saddam Hussein on George Bush senior's life as a reason that George H. Bush went into Iraq the second time. If Perkins really was an insider, he would have known about that and included it at the time he published the book...

I was left to conclude that this book is somewhat more eco-leftist propaganda than a complete and balanced telling of factual history.
The next from "John Smith" is interesting:
Confessions of an EHM certainly is one for the conspiracy theorists. It was an interesting read by a man obviously plagued by his conscience. It got too wishy washy for me about three quarters of the way through. He was trying to be both a philosopher and an economist and it would have been better had he just stuck to the facts of economics and politics (as he saw or knew them) rather than waffle on about eagle and condor "prophesies".
Yes, very enlightening:

http://eomega.org/omega/faculty/viewPro ... 64c740789/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think we can say with some degree of conviction that Mr. Perkins is a fairly good "fit" for many in this forum. As to his competence to criticize and analyze the economic policies of the United States, let alone foreign nations, I'm not at all certain.

Another reviewer, "ThurgoodMarshall," takes Perkins to the woodshed:
What a truly disappointing book. If John Perkins really is who he says he is then it is a terrible shame that his book was so completely unimaginative and one dimensional. In this book the US is the "boogey" man and communists and muslims extremists are the poor victims. What an incredible misrepresentation. As someone who has spent some time in the third world, I am shocked that Perkins would rather deliver the poverty stricken masses into the grave than see a US corporation profit from building infrastructure in the third world.
I'd advise going through as many of the pro/con reviews here as you can. Its quite revealing.

However, just as a general statement, Whatever the real situation in Ecuador is, the answer to poverty is free markets and the rule of law; that is, productive work and the ability to keep most of the money one earns. Wealth creation is the answer to poverty, and it hardly matters whether or not the company one works for is indigenous or foreign. I have little doubt that the Ecuadorians who work for foreign oil companies are far better off than they otherwise would have been without such gainful employment.

Secondly, Thinker appears to assume, with Perkins, that industrial development (dams, drilling, and the creation of technological infrastructure) are bad things: he appears to believe that economic development creates poverty. This is, indeed, the classic Western Leftist paradigm (notice how oil is "torn" from the Amazon, not just "extracted").
Consider...
Why was our country attacked on September 11, 2001?
Because they are fanatiacal belivers in the ideology of Wahhabi Islam, which forsees a global caliphate imposed at all costs through Jihad on all of the world's peoples, and who see America as "the Great Satan" because of its open, free society, democratic insittutions, and religious heterodoxy. We are all "dar al-haab;" the "House of war" relative to Islam. We are its implacable enimies simply by the fact of declining conversion and being non-Islamic.
These "terrorists" were pissed at us... WHY?
1. We are not like them. We represent everything they oppose and hate.
2. We, the Great Satan, support Israel, the Little Satan (and the only democratic, open soceity in the entire Middle East).
3. We are infidels, and are already considered to be at war with them because of this.
Why did so many others cheer after they heard the news of the U.S. being attacked?
Its called "barbarism," "Thinker," and its still a salient aspect of the world in which we live.
It is wondered if US backed oil company officials made deals with Saudi Arabia and thought they could do the same with Iraq and didn't care that Saddam Hussein was a pathological mass murderer - what they wanted was oil.
Yes, none dare call it conspiracy...
But Hussein wouldn't go along, so CIA jumped in, which again didn't work, so then American troops were sent in.
Actually, Saddam went right along with the U.N., French, German, and Russian supported Oil for Food program, in which all of these entities and key people and organizations within them did very nicely as Iraqi children starved.
Why is "The first contracts for rebuilding post-war Iraq have been awarded, and Vice President Dick Cheney's old employer, Halliburton Co., is one of the early winners"??


Because there were (and I think, still are) only two corporations in the world with the technology, know-how, and experience necessary to rebuild and reconfigure an entire oil industry teeming with obsolete, poorly maintained, and damaged equipment and infrastructure, one being a French company, and the other being Halliburton, and there was no possibility the pusillanimous French were going to be rewarded for their (traditional) pusillanimity.

I see no reason to pursue your Code Pink/International ANSWER talking points any longer.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:39 pm
by Thinker
coachmarc wrote:
Thinker wrote:Coachmarc,
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion & hopefully free speech.
In my opinion, Jesus never did and would never keep fiannces dark and secret, nor would he rob the poor of tithes.
Maybe that's just me.

Charity is the only thing that will never fail. - Moroni 7:47
Our church is supposedly "The church of JESUS CHRIST," NOT "The church of leaders."
Jesus taught that as we love others we love God, as we neglect others, we neglect God... and that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves... "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt 22:40
... Our salvation based on commandments is not based on whether our offerings reach their intended destination through proper channels, but rather that we do make such offerings as commanded of us.
What scares me is that some like you, equate church leaders with God.
THEY ARE NOT GOD!!!
They are human beings, that daily make mistakes, like you & I do.
Don't put your trust in the arm of flesh! It WILL fail.
"All things must fail - But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever." -Moroni 7:46-47

Did Jesus ever command offerings in exchange for salvation and "worthiness"?
No!
Don't you see?
This is of the adversary, as is trying to force unquestioning obedience!

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:43 pm
by Juliette
Loren, I would love to respond to this topic, and of course I am a well known expert in the field, but alas, I have to speak at the
" International Modern Technology Society tonight. So forgive me if I do not respond for awhile! :))

Glad to see your still with us...

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:46 pm
by awake
kathyn wrote: "Sustaining Those Whom the Lord Sustains".
But 1st, before we follow or sustain anyone, we are commanded to determine and discern if in fact the Lord actually called or sustains them, or if at one time he did, if he still does. For no one is guaranteed to be righteous or to stay righteous.

Even Joseph Smith made mistakes in calling apostles to office, when he called a wicked man (Bennett) as an Apostle, even put him in the 1st Pres.

As soon as he realized his error he released and excommunicated him.

Thus we see how critical our own personal revelation is in determining what leaders we should follow, for even our own revelation can even be wrong, just like even Joseph's revelation was wrong at times.

We must be very careful who we sustain and support and make sure they are really called by the Lord and not error.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:47 pm
by Juliette
Thinker wrote:
coachmarc wrote:
Thinker wrote:Coachmarc,
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion & hopefully free speech.
In my opinion, Jesus never did and would never keep fiannces dark and secret, nor would he rob the poor of tithes.
Maybe that's just me.

Charity is the only thing that will never fail. - Moroni 7:47
Our church is supposedly "The church of JESUS CHRIST," NOT "The church of leaders."
Jesus taught that as we love others we love God, as we neglect others, we neglect God... and that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves... "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt 22:40
... Our salvation based on commandments is not based on whether our offerings reach their intended destination through proper channels, but rather that we do make such offerings as commanded of us.
What scares me is that some like you, equate church leaders with God.
THEY ARE NOT GOD!!!
They are human beings, that daily make mistakes, like you & I do.
Don't put your trust in the arm of flesh! It WILL fail.
"All things must fail - But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever." -Moroni 7:46-47

Did Jesus ever command offerings in exchange for salvation and "worthiness"?
No!
Don't you see?
This is of the adversary, as is trying to force unquestioning obedience!
Huh? I equate Church leaders guiding us as God would. Why don't you admit that bias is coloring your analysis of this topic.
The cracks are showing..
P.S Ron Paul is not a God, just in case you didn't know that.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:48 pm
by Thinker
kathyn wrote:I recommend that every one here who thinks they know better than the Brethren, read in the Priesthood and Relief Society manual "Teachings of Presidents of the Church--George Albert Smith" Lesson 6".
Responses like this ^ is why others think our church is a cult that worships its' leaders.
I recommend that you read this:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." -Exodus 20:3

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...
Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me."
-Matt 25:40,45

"Master, which is the greate commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, adn with all thy mind. This is the frist and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
-Matt 22 36-40

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:49 pm
by Loran Blood
The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.
We are not now living, and are not under any mandate to live, the Mosaic law. Americans already dwarf all other European nations as to private charitable giving. So the questions become:

a. How much is enough?
b. At best, all continued charity can do is maintain people in poverty while avoiding abject destitution. How is poverty to actually be overcome in the lives of individuals?
c. Is the church's primary mission the righting of temporal wrongs and alleviating human suffering on a global scale?

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:54 pm
by Thinker
awake wrote:
Thinker wrote: But if an organization is going to require 10% of one's income to be considered worthy & claiming to use it for God's purposes, "in the name of Jesus Christ", they owe those who pay at least the financial transparency to verify if indeed funds are being used that way. Yet finances are hidden & no tithes are shared with the poor. Going along with this is going along with what is contrary to what Jesus Christ taught.

Still, I understand why you're upset with my posts, I would have been too, not too long ago.
We've been taught since babies to never question leaders, which didn't occur to me until recently that is part of Satan's plan.
We've been taught that emotions = spirit. So, there's a cognitive distortion called "Falacy of Emotional Reasoning" that when something bothers you, it's because it's evil & that when you feel good, it's because it's of God. This is dangerous thinking - actually it's not thinking - but just going based on emotion. We are given brains to use, to "study & ponder" it out for ourselves - & then to pray about it.

The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.
That is correct. If we are going to be able to judge the fruits or actions, (as we are commanded to) of our leaders, and if they are righteous or not, then we must be able to see that their deeds and works are in accordance with the scriptures, which is very hard to discern if their actions and decisions are kept hidden. For then how would we know for sure?

Great post Thinker. It is true that it's an uncomfortable thought for most members to realize that they must judge and decide for themselves whether all those around them and their leaders 'are righteous or not', or what is right or wrong or true or false. That's more responsibility than most people in the Church want to accept.

It's so much easier to just believe that leaders can never fall or do wrong and that we don't have to worry about it.
Well put.
Maybe it's like one of those sterograms in which you have to stare at it a certain way & then you finally see a 3-D picture within the design. You can't make anyone see it until they're good and ready. I think in some ways the church is like parents for those of us who feel the need for that authority in our lives. Then there comes a time when we become adults and "put away childish things" (1 Cor 13:11) and learn to think for ourselves and pray based on the desire to worship only God, who is love (1John 4:8).

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:54 pm
by Loran Blood
What scares me is that some like you, equate church leaders with God.
THEY ARE NOT GOD!!!
They are human beings, that daily make mistakes, like you & I do.
Don't put your trust in the arm of flesh! It WILL fail.

No, forget the Brethren, they make mistakes, even while under the influence of the Holy Ghost, and even when united as a body in their assertions and teachings, they make mistakes.

Now, put your trust in Comrade "Che," Therein lies safety, therein lies peace.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:57 pm
by Thinker
awake wrote:But 1st, before we follow or sustain anyone, we are commanded to determine and discern if in fact the Lord actually called or sustains them, or if at one time he did, if he still does. For no one is guaranteed to be righteous or to stay righteous.

Even Joseph Smith made mistakes in calling apostles to office, when he called a wicked man (Bennett) as an Apostle, even put him in the 1st Pres.

As soon as he realized his error he released and excommunicated him.

Thus we see how critical our own personal revelation is in determining what leaders we should follow, for even our own revelation can even be wrong, just like even Joseph's revelation was wrong at times.

We must be very careful who we sustain and support and make sure they are really called by the Lord and not error.
So true!
God must always be who we worship, otherwise we're setting ourselves up to fail & be misled.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 1:58 pm
by Loran Blood
Thinker wrote:
kathyn wrote:I recommend that every one here who thinks they know better than the Brethren, read in the Priesthood and Relief Society manual "Teachings of Presidents of the Church--George Albert Smith" Lesson 6".
Responses like this ^ is why others think our church is a cult that worships its' leaders.
I recommend that you read this:
What responses like this show is that kathyn understands the core doctrines of the Church, and you do not, or will not. It shows that kathyn would rather be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ than of her reflection in the mirror. It shows that kathyn does not believe her own emotional commitments or personal ideology trump the mantel of authority given to the Lord's anointed servants in our day.

That's what this all "shows."

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 2:01 pm
by kathyn
Thinker, in that last post of mine you criticized, did you not notice that you should also pray about these things? Of course, the Brethren are not infallible; they are totally human and we don't worship them. They all have faults and are entitled to their opinions on things, however when they are functioning as church leaders and under the direction of the Lord, the matter is put to rest and I will follow them.

You can do what you want with your "tithing" but unless it's given to the Lord and Church as tithing, it is something else. And you have no right to tell others not to pay tithing. You may not recognize that you are being rebellious, but many here do. Please, please re"think" what you are doing because you will "think" yourself right out of the Church and that would be a pity.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 2:03 pm
by Loran Blood

Huh? I equate Church leaders guiding us as God would. Why don't you admit that bias is coloring your analysis of this topic.
The cracks are showing..
P.S Ron Paul is not a God, just in case you didn't know that.

But he is, I think, like a little household god, the kind ancient people's used to have little idols of and which they would place on their fireplace mantel to guard home and hearth.

The cult of personality that has formed around this guy is a bit disturbing.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 2:05 pm
by awake
Loran Blood wrote: a. How much is enough?
b. At best, all continued charity can do is maintain people in poverty while avoiding abject destitution. How is poverty to actually be overcome in the lives of individuals?
c. Is the church's primary mission the righting of temporal wrongs and alleviating human suffering on a global scale?

"Pure religion is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction."
James 1:27

So yes, I believe that the primary and #1 purpose of religion is to teach people to take care of the needy around them, and the church can only teach this 'by example'.

Some people, like widows and the fatherless, often need to be financially supported and cared for the rest of their lives by others and the Church. Others can eventually get back on their feet.

"If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell all that thou hast, and thou shalt have treasures in heaven."
Matt. 19:21

I know this is still the way to gain perfection and righteousness, even in our day today. It has never been revoked, nor ever could be. We can still live it on a personal individual level, even it no one else does.

Re: Almost 1 BILLION Starving! What would Jesus do?

Posted: April 22nd, 2012, 2:06 pm
by Thinker
Loran Blood wrote:
The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.
We are not now living, and are not under any mandate to live, the Mosaic law.
You're right. That was the "lesser law."
Our church is supposedly based on the higher law of Jesus Christ, who taught that not only should we love those who love us, but to also love our enemies, & that not only should we do what is asked, but to go the extra mile.
Americans already dwarf all other European nations as to private charitable giving. So the questions become:
I didn't ask, "What would America do?" I asked, "What would Jesus do?"
a. How much is enough?
What was enough in the parable of the good Samaritan?
Tossing coins at him? Nope.
Helping him to the point where he could care for himself? Yes.
b. At best, all continued charity can do is maintain people in poverty while avoiding abject destitution. How is poverty to actually be overcome in the lives of individuals?
How do you know until you try?
What type of charity do you refer to, considering there are many different types of charity work?
c. Is the church's primary mission the righting of temporal wrongs and alleviating human suffering on a global scale?
You can answer that yourself by considering the parable of the good Samaritan and these parables...

Let's put the PARABLE of the talents in context... (Matt 25)
Before teaching it, Jesus taught about the 10 prepared virgins... about reponsibility & keeping the big picture in mind, in our priorities.
Then he taught the parable of the talents - how 2 used their talents wisely, but 1 did not.
What does "wisely" mean?
He explains in the next parable of dividing the sheep from the goats...
He says to the sheep,
"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherity the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungred, & ye have me meat: I was thirsty, & ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me in: Naked, & ye clothed me: I was sick, & ye visited me: I was in prison, & ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, & fed thee? or thirsty, & gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, & took thee in? or naked, & clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, & came unto thee?

And the King shall answer & say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil & his angels: For I was an hungred, & ye gave me no meat: I was thristy, & ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me not in: naked & ye clothed me not: sick, & in prison, & ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, & did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the rightous into life eternal."

In the parable of the talents, Jesus was teaching the Lord who was mad at the one who hid his talent was not mad at him for not making money, but for not using his money to bless others as himself (the 2 greatest commandments, which "hang all the law & the prophets"/profits).

"According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death."
http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... -and-stats