LDS Freedom Forum

Durangout,
Yes, Jesus did miraculously feed 5,000.
Yes, Jesus did constanly give & serve others in need.
He needs to wait no longer, I'm already giving my tithes to those in need, in a financially transparent way.

The scriptures state that God is light and truth... not darkness and secrecy.
There are many honest organizations that help those in need in many different ways & who show financial transparency...
http://www.charitynavigator.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jonesde wrote:Of everything said in this thread, this seems to get to the real point the best. Would money help in this circumstance? No. Corrupt governments would take it, or take the food or equipment or whatever that is purchased with it. That problem has to be solved before the people will be free to feed themselves.

And who is currently the greatest culprit in the world when it comes to fostering corruption and politically abusing smaller countries around the world? The USA, especially through participation in and support for international institutions like the World Bank, IMF, UN, etc... which are all US-back and primarily US-funded.

What do empires look like? Starving people in oppressed countries. It's been that way through the history of empires, and it is no different now with the more "virtuous" Pax Americana.

JonesDe,
I agree that corruption, especially in the way of unfair trade policies, developed country government corruption and foreign debt are major contributors to poverty.
Yet I disagree that the government is our only route and I believe we can & must do something to help!

It's easy to throw up our hands and say - "Oh well - there's nothing we can do about corruption!"
Meanwhile many are doing something.
http://amrif.blogspot.com/2007/04/rotar ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.charitynavigator.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Still, I agree that it is essential to educate ourselves about the causes of poverty in any given area.
IE: The church humanitarian center's most spacious task is handling donated used clothing. Employees stand in dumpsters filled with clothes and sort them to be packed and shipped to poor countries. A recent documentary explained that such clothing donations were putting poor country clothing vendors out of business because they couldn't compete with "free."

Imagine if the church put the gusto of energy & resources they put into other things into discovering how BEST to help those suffering extreme poverty! So much could get done - so many lives could be spared & so many could enjoy some decent living conditions. This is the purpose of religion (legion - many) - to put together our resources, our talents, to fulfilling the greatest commandments taught by Jesus Christ: to love God & love others as ourselves. As we love others, we love God. As we neglect others, we neglect God. (Matt 25:40,45)

Thomas wrote:I think the biggest cause of poverty is the hoarding of resources. It's not that they don't know how to fish. There is no where for them to fish. They have been pushed on to the least productive land. Ethiopia is a good example of this. No way for those people to make a living off the desert. If they try to move to more productive land they will be killed.

Thomas, Thank you for these good points.
As mentioned, those in developed countries use the majority of the world's resources - resulting in bullying on a world scale.
I found it interesting to read that the US sends aid mostly to the countries who have some valuable resources.
To truly love others, we need to understand what is needed, & how best we can help.

John Perkins suggested practical steps we can take:

1. Cut back on your oil consumption.
2. Downsize your home, wardrobe, car, office, most everything.
3. Protest against 'free trade' agreements & against companies that exploit desperate people in sweatshops or that pillage the environment.
4. Spread the word through forums like this, family & friends.

"We must commit ourselves absolutely & unequivocally to shaking ourselves & everyone around us awake... Ask yourself... What will I do to make sure our children & all children everywhere are able to fulfill the dream of our Founding Fathers, the dream of life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness? What course will I take to end the needless starvation, & make sure there is never again a day like September 11?

The spirits of those men & women who left their farms & fishing boats & headed out to confront the mighty British Empire, & of those who fought to emancipate the slaves during the Civil War speak to us. As do those who gave their moral support: teachers, poets, artists, entrepreneurs, health workers, the manual laborers - you & me.
The hour is ours. It is now time for each & every one of us to step up to the battle line, to ask the important questions, to search our souls for our own answers, & to take action."

Jesus taught that as we love others, we love God, as we neglect others, we neglect God.
He instructed us to love others as ourselves and that "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Tithes are meant to be for those in need (at least 1/3 according to Deut 14:28-29).

Certainly the Church membership has neither the money nor the clout to get rid of corruption in governments. We certainly don't have the resources to feed the whole world, but we do what we can, one individual at a time. The only solution to the world's problems will be the Second Coming of the Lord. The Lord could heal every sick person, feed every hungry person and make sure we all have nice homes, but that's not part of the Plan, is it? We agreed to these conditions when we accepted the Plan of Salvation. Remember, Lucifer's plan would have saved all of us but it was a dictatorship. Instead, we decided to follow God's plan and knew there would be hardships in the world. Joseph Smith said all things would be for our good and experience. Do you not believe that?

Judas Iscariot was mad at the Lord for wasting the oil, but Jesus replied that the poor would be with us always. It's not humanly possible for the Church (us) to solve all of the world's problems, but we do a lot considering what a small percentage of the world's population is (active) LDS. The gift the Lord gave the world was priceless; the Atonement. The Lord's servants are about doing the Lord's work in trying to teach this to the world and get as many souls back to Heavenly Father as possible.
The Church is the original Peace Corps.

I don't hear praise for all the wonderful things the Church is doing, only criticism for what they aren't. And again, I know that the Lord is the head of this church and he works through the Brethren. (And they work harder than most of us can imagine.) So either support the Brethren or join a different church....one that does all the things you think our church isn't doing.

Thinker wrote:

Juliette wrote:I have never laughed so hard in my whole life. Great analogy! =)) =)) )

I don't see anything funny about suffering and death of children, our brothers and sisters.
Juliette, your response disgusts me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whatever thinker. Read all the posts why don't you. The only thing disqusting is your remarks.
Perhaps you should THINK a littler harder. X(

Thinker wrote:Lately, I have felt such a need to speak up for those who can't... especially for those many who suffering extreme poverty.
The World Health Organization states that almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are chronically hungry.
Tens of thousands die every day of preventable causes.
Jeffrey D. Sachs wrote, "Every morning our newspapers could report, 'More than 20,000 people perished yesterday of extreme poverty.' The stories would put the stark numbers in context - upt to 8,000 children dead of malaria, 5,000 mothers an fathers dead of tuberculosis, 7,500 young adults dead of AIDS, and thousands more dead of diarrhea, repiratory infection, and other killer diseases that prey on bodies weakened by chronic hunger."

Deut 14:28-29 (mysteriously not included when you search for tithing in LDS bible indexes & dictionaries) states:
"At the end of 3 years thou shalt bring forth all the tithes of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord they God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Jesus taught over & over to love others as ourselves, through the parable of the good Samaritan and the parable of dividing the sheep from the goats...
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...
"Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me." - Matt 25:40,45

How would Jesus handle tithes?
Would he hide them, as the "wicked and slothful servant" did in the parable of the talents? (Matt 25)
Or would he use them to help those in need, so that they can then help others in need, thereby being a "good and faithful servant"?

I'm not exactly sure of the overall point of your OP. At least that many, and probably many more than that, were chronically hungry, if not starving, when Jesus was on the earth and during his ministry. What did he do then?

Kathyn,
Your solution to loving others as ourselves is to "Wait for the 2nd coming"???
Why are church leaders hiding finances? What do they have to hide?
Why are they not sharing tithes with the poor, as instructed in Deut 14:28-29?
Why is Deut 14:28-29 left out of LDS bible topical guides and dictionaries?

Loran Blood wrote:

Thinker wrote:Lately, I have felt such a need to speak up for those who can't... especially for those many who suffering extreme poverty.
The World Health Organization states that almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are chronically hungry.
Tens of thousands die every day of preventable causes.
Jeffrey D. Sachs wrote, "Every morning our newspapers could report, 'More than 20,000 people perished yesterday of extreme poverty.' The stories would put the stark numbers in context - upt to 8,000 children dead of malaria, 5,000 mothers an fathers dead of tuberculosis, 7,500 young adults dead of AIDS, and thousands more dead of diarrhea, repiratory infection, and other killer diseases that prey on bodies weakened by chronic hunger."

Deut 14:28-29 (mysteriously not included when you search for tithing in LDS bible indexes & dictionaries) states:
"At the end of 3 years thou shalt bring forth all the tithes of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord they God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Jesus taught over & over to love others as ourselves, through the parable of the good Samaritan and the parable of dividing the sheep from the goats...
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...
"Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me." - Matt 25:40,45

How would Jesus handle tithes?
Would he hide them, as the "wicked and slothful servant" did in the parable of the talents? (Matt 25)
Or would he use them to help those in need, so that they can then help others in need, thereby being a "good and faithful servant"?

I'm not exactly sure of the overall point of your OP. At least that many, and probably many more than that, were chronically hungry, if not starving, when Jesus was on the earth and during his ministry. What did he do then?

Jesus did not require tithing to be considered "worthy."
He did not keep finances dark & secret & hide money.
He did not use tithes to build corporations and shopping malls.
Jesus did not rob tithes from the poor.

Jesus fed 5,000.
He loved & cared for those in need.
He taught parables like the good Samaritan & instructed us to "go and do likewise."
Jesus taught the parable of dividing the sheep from the goats & taught:
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...
Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have NOT done it unto me." -Matt 25:40,45


"Scriptures teach us that the poor - especially widows, orphans, & strangers - have long been the concern of God & the godly... Few, if any, of the Lord's intructions are stated more often, or given greater emphasis than the commandment to care for the poor and the needy." (See D&C 35, 42:30-31, 44:6, 56:16) -Russel M. Nelson

"It has always been the disposition of the true disciples of Christ, as they reached higher degress of spirituality, to look after the needy." -J. Richard Clarke

"We have a keen responsibility to care for the poor & the needy. Welfare is only encompassed or restricted by our vision and by our understanding & by our inspiration." -Thomas S. Monson

"Welfare Service is nothing more nor less than the gospel in action." -Spencer W. Kimball

The point is to remind us of our greatest responsibility - to love others as ourselves (this is above all laws & prophets) -Matt 22:40
I realize many of us are already giving alot - I hope that we ensure that at least 1/3 of our tithes are given to those in need, as instructed in Deut 14:28-29.

Thinker, I take it that if you were in charge of all the tithes and offerings you would do much differently than the Brethren. My friend, be very careful with your accusations and criticisms. Maybe you need to have a one-on-one conversation with the Presiding Bishopric and tell them of your concerns. They are in charge of the humanitarian part of the Church. (I wonder why the Lord didn't make you steward over all the tithes and offerings since you obviously think you'd do better....hmmm....)

Teach them to fish?

Yes, that's the ultimate goal, but meanwhile, many "have no fish to fish" - their resources been stolen by developed nations.

The only way I can describe this is to call it nonsense. Their resources are still there, but they have not developed and exploited as they could be because of barriers imposed primarily through government policy. The developed nations have not "stolen" anything from the Global South. They have been obtained through freely entered into contractual relations and by paying for them, the resources of which you speak (I'm speaking of the bulk of the 20th century here, not prior centuries under the sway of imperial expansion and Mercantilism). Do you know how much money the United States alone has spent, since the Kennedy administration, on feeding, clothing, providing medical care, infrastructure, and economic development to the Third World? Its in the trillions, Thinker. What happened? Where did it all go? Why is poverty still so entrenched in the Global South after all that expenditure?

Interesting questions. Several answers jump up at one immediately, and at the center of those answers lies, firstly, certain cultural issues and barriers (such as traditionalist Islamic culture), and equal to or perhaps preeminent above any salient cultural obstacles to economic development of the kind you seek, is the name of Karl Marx. In both cases, the fundamental problem of the Third World is not any stealing of resources by the developed world (the classic mythic narrative of the Western Left), but the stealing of resources by the governments of the Third World from their own people; a vast plethora of thugocracies, kleptocracies, command and control economic systems, lack of the rule of law, lack of respect for and protection of property rights, continual ethnic/tribal warfare and upheaval, and behind much of this, the long shadow of 20th century socialist theory bearing down on any chance of these people's ever rising above the grinding poverty that has long been their lot.

Standing out, at this present time, post-Cold War, in preventing any degree of really substantive economic development in the Global South is the Western environmental movement, which itself has subsumed within itself much of the agenda of international socialism/progressivism since the break-up of the Soviet Union.

The two key aspects of any such development, anywhere - liberal democracy and free market economic relations (capitalism) - have been chronically absent from the Third World for the entirety of the 20th century. Those nations who did adopt both these key elements, Japan, Hong Kong, Germany, Taiwan (in the last third or so of the century), and now India, and a few other nations, have done very well. Much of Africa and Latin America, however, are still laboring under the discredited shibboleths of "revolution," and "social justice" ideology that has proved an impassible barrier to economic development (and politically free, open societies) throughout the last century, and will continue to do so until these ideas are abandoned.

Jeffrey D. Sachs explained that when a people are in such extreme poverty with adverse conditions, the only way up is with help... "The greatest tragedy of our time is that 1/6 of humanity is not even on the development ladder.

And yet American foreign aid is well understood to have been a monumental failure, overall, with poverty now as deeply entrenched or more entrenched now than when it began in earnest fifty years ago. The reasons are actually pretty well known: most of this government aid went to the governments of these many backward Third World nations, who were and remain "backward" primarily because of the intransigent policies followed by the leftist intellectuals, revolutionaries, thugs, kleptocrats, juntas, and caudillo's who govern most of these nations. As with most of the money that disappeared into the coffers (and bellies) of these regimes (such as the Ethiopian regime and its crony's in the Feed the World campaign in 1984 (the food was consumed by the regime, its hangers on, its internal security forces and military, and the rest left to rot on the docks as it was withheld from much of the population for whom it was intended and used as a weapon of attrition), the money went down a vast rat hole of corruption and diversion to the governments themselves. The same thing can be shown across a roughly 50 year time frame. The Oil for Food program is another now infamous example.

Most of our government aid was never invested in private sector initiatives to create the economic infrastructure and open political institutions necessary to a climate of growing prosperity, and many of these governments did not use the money to create basic infrastructure, but consumed it themselves or used it in pursuing ethnic or ideological conflict.

The answer to this kind of entrenched poverty is:

1. Open, liberal, deliberative democratic political institutions.

2. Respect for and protection of property rights.

3. A stable, peaceful, secure social environment

4. Free market economic relations (capitalism)

5 an independent civil and criminal judiciary and justice system

6. Private investment and development (which means the right of individuals to earn, save, invest, and risk).

7. Taxation and government regulation of business and economic life kept at an absolute minimum.

kathyn wrote:Thinker, I take it that if you were in charge of all the tithes and offerings you would do much differently than the Brethren. My friend, be very careful with your accusations and criticisms. Maybe you need to have a one-on-one conversation with the Presiding Bishopric and tell them of your concerns. They are in charge of the humanitarian part of the Church. (I wonder why the Lord didn't make you steward over all the tithes and offerings since you obviously think you'd do better....hmmm....)

I have engaged people who hold thinkers views for many years, and there is, among some people, a single minded fixation on "the poor" as an abstract concept; as a fixed, settled class of human beings within an idealistic moral/ethical system to which all things, literally, must give way. The Church could, of course, beyond the millions it already gives to charity around the world (not to mention that given by wealthy LDS individuals privately) simply divest itself of its entire tithing bank account and give away everything it has to feeding Third World peoples. Of course, this would entail the effective end of coordinated missionary work, the building of Temples, stake centers and ward buildings; the end of the CES, the publication of teachings manuals/resources, etc. The spiritual mission of the Church would effectively end, and the Church would now become simply another secularized "social gospel" movement.

There are certain people who wish to "save the world," and who wish that all things in the world be made right. The way to do this, they believe, is, in essence, to fly over Third World nations in helicopters dropping money. This mentality, while it may appear noble (and certainly sometimes is), is also woefully inadequate to the task it has set for itself.

Thinker wrote:

jonesde wrote:Of everything said in this thread, this seems to get to the real point the best. Would money help in this circumstance? No. Corrupt governments would take it, or take the food or equipment or whatever that is purchased with it. That problem has to be solved before the people will be free to feed themselves.

And who is currently the greatest culprit in the world when it comes to fostering corruption and politically abusing smaller countries around the world? The USA, especially through participation in and support for international institutions like the World Bank, IMF, UN, etc... which are all US-back and primarily US-funded.

What do empires look like? Starving people in oppressed countries. It's been that way through the history of empires, and it is no different now with the more "virtuous" Pax Americana.

JonesDe,
I agree that corruption, especially in the way of unfair trade policies, developed country government corruption and foreign debt are major contributors to poverty.
Yet I disagree that the government is our only route and I believe we can & must do something to help!

I didn't say government was the only solution, or any solution at all. In fact, the government "solutions" are the main problem. Many of these people existed just fine for centuries before foreign governments got involved. There are of course many cases where local governments are culpable, including in developed countries like the Soviet Union and many parts of southeast Asia, and smaller examples exist throughout history. However, smaller governments are easier to work around or get rid of by the people affected... it is the modern invention of massive governments that are impossible for smaller groups of those affected to counter or avoid.

I agree that there is more than can be done to help, and should be done right away, but until we are relieved from funding those who work against us, it is difficult to afford all that is needed. The amount paid to help gets bigger as more is taken to counter the help.

Thinker wrote:It's easy to throw up our hands and say - "Oh well - there's nothing we can do about corruption!"
Meanwhile many are doing something.
http://amrif.blogspot.com/2007/04/rotar ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.charitynavigator.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Still, I agree that it is essential to educate ourselves about the causes of poverty in any given area.
IE: The church humanitarian center's most spacious task is handling donated used clothing. Employees stand in dumpsters filled with clothes and sort them to be packed and shipped to poor countries. A recent documentary explained that such clothing donations were putting poor country clothing vendors out of business because they couldn't compete with "free."

Yeah, I saw the news story about this a while back (the effect on vendors anyway, not the Church part... I guess that's your own personal bias)... was it on This American Life? Wherever it was, don't be fooled by it. People use such examples as an excuse to not help or to attack other charitable efforts.

In a way all giving efforts are flawed when corruption is forcefully separating people from the resources they need to survive, and all giving efforts will bias the local economy. However, if people have less need of something the vendor may go out of business but every one else benefits and it frees the vendor to contribute economically in other ways.

The overall effect is still an increase in the standard of living, which is the only economic measure that should matter (but because it is not a government-friendly economic measure it is the main one that is not considered to matter). The poor vendor can complain and whine, or adjust and find other ways to work hard and honestly contribute in a way that also brings him more profit in the newly expanded economy.

Thinker wrote:Imagine if the church put the gusto of energy & resources they put into other things into discovering how BEST to help those suffering extreme poverty! So much could get done - so many lives could be spared & so many could enjoy some decent living conditions. This is the purpose of religion (legion - many) - to put together our resources, our talents, to fulfilling the greatest commandments taught by Jesus Christ: to love God & love others as ourselves. As we love others, we love God. As we neglect others, we neglect God. (Matt 25:40,45)

And what should they do? Send food and money? To who? What would that do to farmers and food vendors? What would that do to local employers who now have to pay employees more because there is less demand for money?

There are definitely some good "charities" including the micro-loan concept (as long as they are done on generous terms), and things like Heifer International that includes a major pay-it-forward component so that it grows based on consideration for others, on real charity, and is self-sustaining.

Would you give money to other charities, if so which ones? For those charities what have you looked into to make sure they are not corrupted and doing harm, perhaps even more harm than good?

So many large charities are simply avenues for wealthy people to channel money for political and social purposes, and sometimes in that channeling of money they fund significant harm. The Bill Gates quote about reducing populations through charity work is a great example of that, and of course there are many others.

I didn't say government was the only solution, or any solution at all. In fact, the government "solutions" are the main problem. Many of these people existed just fine for centuries before foreign governments got involved.

Huh? So, as it now appears, your problem isn't really with grinding poverty (the standard form of life for the vast majority of people's in the "Third World" for thousands of years (sans centuries) before the era of Western imperial expansion) per se, but with the presence of foreign imperial powers in those countries (and do you actually expect me to believe that these very people - throughout Africa, Asia, and Latin America - were not engaged in their own continual imperial adventures among themselves and their neighbors for those previous thousands of years?) and the fact that they extracted goods/resources from them.

There are of course many cases where local governments are culpable, including in developed countries like the Soviet Union and many parts of southeast Asia, and smaller examples exist throughout history. However, smaller governments are easier to work around or get rid of by the people affected... it is the modern invention of massive governments that are impossible for smaller groups of those affected to counter or avoid.

So, the problem is modernity, the modern nation state, large populations within them, and the loss of the small tribe or medieval village form of life and government?

I agree that there is more than can be done to help, and should be done right away,

What, for instance. If the trillions of taxpayer dollars spent, to little avail, since the origination of the New Frontier and the Peace Corps, have failed to move most of these people out of dire want, would tens or hundreds of trillions work? Would zillions do the trick?

Thinker wrote:Kathyn,
Your solution to loving others as ourselves is to "Wait for the 2nd coming"???
Why are church leaders hiding finances? What do they have to hide?
Why are they not sharing tithes with the poor, as instructed in Deut 14:28-29?
Why is Deut 14:28-29 left out of LDS bible topical guides and dictionaries?

Oh man.... I am disgusted by your posts man.. seriously.... over and over this is all you seem capable of "thinking" about.... stop blaming others, sell all your stuff and give it to the poor ..

Thinker wrote:Kathyn,
Your solution to loving others as ourselves is to "Wait for the 2nd coming"???

Is that what she said?

Why are church leaders hiding finances? What do they have to hide?

The tithing funds are a sacred trust between the giver and the Church, and its nobody's business what the Church does with them, anymore than its proper for me to chase after my Bishop asking for an accounting of how my fast offerings were used. The just live by faith, Thinker, not by cynicism.

Why are they not sharing tithes with the poor, as instructed in Deut 14:28-29?

CFR.

Why is Deut 14:28-29 left out of LDS bible topical guides and dictionaries?

You tell us, Thinker. And perhaps you can show me, while your at it, where the gospel is understood to be the means of fixing all the world's problems in mortality?

Zkulptor wrote:

Thinker wrote:Kathyn,
Your solution to loving others as ourselves is to "Wait for the 2nd coming"???
Why are church leaders hiding finances? What do they have to hide?
Why are they not sharing tithes with the poor, as instructed in Deut 14:28-29?
Why is Deut 14:28-29 left out of LDS bible topical guides and dictionaries?

Oh man.... I am disgusted by your posts man.. seriously.... over and over this is all you seem capable of "thinking" about.... stop blaming others, sell all your stuff and give it to the poor ..

Once Kathyn accomplishes this task, as you have outlined it, and is then destitute, who is going to take care of her in her newly acquired poverty?

sell all your stuff and give it to the poor ..

The proper response to this kind of thing is, as always,"You first."

Loran Blood, you misunderstood Zkulptor's response...It was to Thinker, not me (kathyn).

kathyn wrote:Loran Blood, you misunderstood Zkulptor's response...It was to Thinker, not me (kathyn).

My apologies...but my question to him still stands.

Loran Blood wrote:

kathyn wrote:Loran Blood, you misunderstood Zkulptor's response...It was to Thinker, not me (kathyn).

My apologies...but my question to him still stands.

Kathyn is right, and I am not the one ridiculously, and vehemently (perhaps and sadly inspired by demons, or some illness, and I am sorry he feel s this way about our leaders, Apostles, Prophet, etc etc) to point the finger at our leaders constantly, the man sounds like a broken record...and please do not tell me I am pointing the finger at him, because I am just stating the obvious...
If he is so worried about those poor people ( and I am aware it is a very sad problem I myself and many here do everything we can to hep those in need as much as our abilities allow, and it does break our heart to know these people are suffering),then let him sell all his assets and give them to the poor.

My point is that this is obviously not the answer... we need to work on nurturing the morality of countries, by taking care of the core of civilization... families.... through the gospel.... not by trying to defame the very people appointed by Jesus Christ to help us achieve that (in due time)... people making such comments are really doing nothing by parading around saying our leaders are corrupt, then why even bother attending The LDS Church? in my little experience these are the people that not only tend to fall away from the Church, but end up turning their backs on the Lord, because in a twisted way they think they are actually following him...because according to their logic, our leaders are corrupt, and a fallen bunch of hypocrites..... what a mind job, this is what Satan does.... and it is destructive...to the soul....yet he cannot see this... and that is truly sad.. I pray he will one day open his eyes.

If we are to follow the example of Christ, and I think we are, let me ask a question. Do you think that he used the power he had to create food from nothing, to form a food kitchen and feed all the hungry in the area around Jerusalem? Did he show us that feeding the hungry was the most important thing to do with the resources he had? If he didn't, why wouldn't he do that? Was he hiding his talent like the so called wicked leaders of the church today do? Did Peter feed all the hungry with the power God gave to him?
Why was it the Lehi, a prophet chose to leave his riches in his house instead of distributing them to the poor before he left for the wilderness. Darn, now we have a wicked Lehi. I bet we could go through the OT and find almost every prophet was wicked by the strange and bizarre standards set up in this topic.
Thinker, I believe you are grossly misinterpreting the scripture you stand your inverted pyramid of logic upon, which leaves you with no foundation.

I do think it is important to feed the poor, but, it clearly states in Mosiah that you are to respond to their petition, not go out and find the poor and divest yourself of your goods to care for everyone else, so they need not care for themselves. The church, our government and our whole society would be broke in trying to feed the worlds poor for one week. We couldn't do it. But, I am quite sure you will keep straining at the mote that is in the leaders of the churches eyes, while ignoring the beam that is in yours. I kind of wonder what that beam is? Care to share?

Jesus would remove the cause of starvation... which is belief in error.

Belief in the tree of knowledge as sold by lucifer has given us education control....leading to poverty.

The tree of knowledge gives us ignorance, public education, priestcraft, doctorcraft, lawyercraft, kingcraft, licensing, socialism and communism all financed by the labor destroying heavy hand of forced taxation.

Starvation naturally happens when government gets above the people.
When government protects evil instead of punishing it.

The gospel takes the gutter out of the man and the man takes himself out of the gutter.

The Pilgrams starved until they were allowed to own and control their labor and property. Until they established a government that protected natural law.

Jesus would teach correct principals and the people would govern and take care of themselves.

Juliette wrote:Whatever thinker. Read all the posts why don't you. The only thing disqusting is your remarks.
Perhaps you should THINK a littler harder. X(

I apologize for being a bit harsh in responding to your response, Juliette.
It seems we both reacted without thinking compassionately.

kathyn wrote:Thinker, I take it that if you were in charge of all the tithes and offerings you would do much differently than the Brethren. My friend, be very careful with your accusations and criticisms. Maybe you need to have a one-on-one conversation with the Presiding Bishopric and tell them of your concerns. They are in charge of the humanitarian part of the Church. (I wonder why the Lord didn't make you steward over all the tithes and offerings since you obviously think you'd do better....hmmm....)

Kathyn,
I tried to do that & even when I was in town, I went to the church office building in SLC and asked if I could please discuss finances and see a finance report. I was told that the church doesn't reveal that.

If God is about truth and light, why are finances kept dark and secret, Kathyn?
And my criticism is not just to criticize, but an attempt to speak up for those who are being robbed of tithes, who cannot speak up for themselves...

"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." -Proverbs 31:8-9

Loran Blood wrote:

Teach them to fish?

Yes, that's the ultimate goal, but meanwhile, many "have no fish to fish" - their resources been stolen by developed nations.

The only way I can describe this is to call it nonsense. Their resources are still there, but they have not developed and exploited as they could be because of barriers imposed primarily through government policy.

Who's sources?
I believe you are doing just what you accuse me of...

Loran Blood wrote:I have engaged people who hold thinkers views for many years, and there is, among some people, a single minded fixation on "the poor" as an abstract concept; as a fixed, settled class of human beings within an idealistic moral/ethical system to which all things, literally, must give way.

In case you didn't look into the references I posted...consider this:

"For every $100 of crude (oil) taken out of the Ecuadorian rain forest; the oil companies receive $75. Of the remaining $25, 3/4 must go to paying off the foreign debt. Most of the remainder covers military and other government expenses - which leaves about $2.50 for health, education and programs aimed at helping the poor. Thus, out of every $100 worth of oil torn from the Amazon, less than $3 goes to the people who need the money most, those whose lives have been so adversely impacted by the damns, the drilling, and the pipelines, and who are dying from lack of edible food and potable water." -John Perkins

Consider...
Why was our country attacked on September 11, 2001?
These "terrorists" were pissed at us... WHY?
Why did so many others cheer after they heard the news of the U.S. being attacked?
US retaliated by attacking Afghanistan... & while they were at it, found an excuse to attack Iraq too... WHY?

It is wondered if US backed oil company officials made deals with Saudi Arabia and thought they could do the same with Iraq and didn't care that Saddam Hussein was a pathological mass murderer - what they wanted was oil. But Hussein wouldn't go along, so CIA jumped in, which again didn't work, so then American troops were sent in.
Why were our troops in Iraq for so long - wasting Iraqi and American lives, and American tax dollars?

Why did Robert McNamara, previous president of Ford Motor company and then secretary of defense under Kennedy & Johnson, then become president of the World Bank?
Why is "The first contracts for rebuilding post-war Iraq have been awarded, and Vice President Dick Cheney's old employer, Halliburton Co., is one of the early winners"??
http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/co ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why, in Dec. 20, 1989 did Pres. Bush (Sr.) attack Panama with an airborne assault after Panama's Pres. Noriega refused to give the US back the PANAMA's canal? Why would our "democratic" government so obviously violate international law in this way? Why did the US take Pres. Noriega to our land, as a prisoner of war?

Why, when running for President, did Newt Gingrich pledge the US to be leading producer of oil?

Any source you get will be somewhat biased.
But common sense can go a long way.