LDS Freedom Forum

Loran Blood wrote:
1. You seem to assume that economics is a zero-sum game, in which there is a static pile of stuff (money, resources, goods etc.) that all of us "grab" and in which some of us "grab" more than our fair share.

The United Order, the Lord's program for eliminating the
inequalities among men, is based upon the underlying concept that the
earth and all things therein belong to the Lord and that men hold earthly
possessions as stewards accountable to God.

Thomas wrote:Thinker, I can hear what your saying but I 'm just not going to go down that road. There is too much we don't understand. It is outside my area of authority. It is not something I am going to be held accountable for.

Digitali wrote:Fwiw, no tithing money was used for the City Creek Center - http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... edule.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

coachmarc wrote:Thinker, I gotta say I admire your passion. Perhaps some day, hopefully soon, you will focus that passion on laboring in the Lord's vineyard as He intended. I'm sure you read my previous post, but skipped right over it in your zeal to continue with your fixation. No worries. I have to assume you're LDS and if so, you're preaching to the choir. If not, then I invite you to dig deeper and understand that Jesus Christ is STILL laboring in the vineyard (Jacob 5). Yes, people are starving everywhere and they were starving while our Savior walked the earth:

1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

You see, Thinker, man does not live by bread alone. Proper study of ALL the scriptures will enable you to understand the most important work of the Lord:

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

You are focused and fixated on one tree and missing the point and purpose of the entire forest--or shall I say vineyard? Do you understand the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees? Prophets like Zenos, Isaiah, Nephi, etc, etc, etc, understood the most important work, which the Lord began before the world was and is STILL working diligently to this day and WILL NOT STOP until it is finished and after the millennium, He presents the celestialized earth to His Father. Perhaps when you have caught this vision, you will make an amazing missionary and bring souls unto Christ.

Thinker wrote:

Zkulptor wrote:

Thinker wrote:Kathyn,
Your solution to loving others as ourselves is to "Wait for the 2nd coming"???
Why are church leaders hiding finances? What do they have to hide?
Why are they not sharing tithes with the poor, as instructed in Deut 14:28-29?
Why is Deut 14:28-29 left out of LDS bible topical guides and dictionaries?

Oh man.... I am disgusted by your posts man.. seriously.... over and over this is all you seem capable of "thinking" about.... stop blaming others, sell all your stuff and give it to the poor ..

What I do with my finances is really none of your business since you've never paid a cent to me in tithing.
But if an organization is going to require 10% of one's income to be considered worthy & claiming to use it for God's purposes, "in the name of Jesus Christ", they owe those who pay at least the financial transparency to verify if indeed funds are being used that way. Yet finances are hidden & no tithes are shared with the poor. Going along with this is going along with what is contrary to what Jesus Christ taught.

Still, I understand why you're upset with my posts, I would have been too, not too long ago.
We've been taught since babies to never question leaders, which didn't occur to me until recently that is part of Satan's plan.
We've been taught that emotions = spirit. So, there's a cognitive distortion called "Falacy of Emotional Reasoning" that when something bothers you, it's because it's evil & that when you feel good, it's because it's of God. This is dangerous thinking - actually it's not thinking - but just going based on emotion. We are given brains to use, to "study & ponder" it out for ourselves - & then to pray about it.

The reason why I am bringing all of this up is not just to be a pain, it's to inspire others to direct their tithes as Jesus would - or at least the "lower law" indicated in Deut 14:28-29 that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need.

ChelC wrote:Thinker - I don't believe you. I don't believe your intentions are to get people to direct their tithes to the poor. I believe that your intentions are to get people to question the leadership as you do. I fear for you. It is not charity leading you, brother. I've seen charity. It doesn't look like this.

ChelC wrote:Thinker I believe that your intentions are to get people to question the leadership as you do. I've seen charity. It doesn't look like this.

Zkulptor wrote:No my friend, it is not blind faith in these people... it is faith in Christ's choice/will to call them as leaders, and you it seems, are basically saying that they are thieves, and if they are then the Church is in apostasy at the highest levels, something that the Lord clearly has stated will not happen. I do agree there's mistakes made there and there... but your accusations are jeopardizing your exaltation...

ChelC wrote:Thinker - I don't believe you. I don't believe your intentions are to get people to direct their tithes to the poor. I believe that your intentions are to get people to question the leadership as you do. I fear for you. It is not charity leading you, brother. I've seen charity. It doesn't look like this.

awake wrote:

ChelC wrote:Thinker I believe that your intentions are to get people to question the leadership as you do. I've seen charity. It doesn't look like this.

It is 'charity', a loving righteous act, to question our leaders and everyone else. For only then can we truly sustain them and know for sure they are righteous, and even help them repent if by chance they error.

It is a commandment to question 'everything' our leaders 'say and do' and gain a testimony for ourselves if what they do and say is correct or not.

It is our responsibility to 'prove all things' and only hold fast to that which is true and right. Otherwise we will be held accountable for following blindly, especially if something was said or done wrong, that we didn't catch.

Thinker wrote:

ChelC wrote:Thinker - I don't believe you. I don't believe your intentions are to get people to direct their tithes to the poor. I believe that your intentions are to get people to question the leadership as you do. I fear for you. It is not charity leading you, brother. I've seen charity. It doesn't look like this.

It doesn't matter if you believe me or not.
As Joseph Smith taught, the truth will carve itself - eventually you'll realize it.
I'd rather it be sooner than later, because (& this is my agenda if you want to call it that...)

1. There are many suffering who I care about & have witnessed extreme poverty & who deserve 1/3 of tithes as instructed (but hidden as finances are hidden from LDS leaders) in Deut 14:28-29. (This scripture is not included in LDS bible topical guides/dictionaries.)

2. The church exploits members, especially financially, requiring tithes to be considered "worthy" & requiring members to pay tithes before bills, to church leaders who then hide finances & don't share a penny with those in need.

3. The church teaches cognitive distortions that lead to mental illness.
Utah, the only state so influenced by Mormonism, leads the nation in anti-depressants (twice the national average!).
Here are some of the thinking distortions taught by the church that contribute to members' & others' suffering:

1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative...In church, I've gotten the message that I am not good enough, no matter how much I serve & give & that even if I do a lot & don't pay tithing to the church but instead to the poor, I am unworthy.
2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix) - BI-POLAR thinking: "The church is either true or not." "You are either on the Lord's side or you aren't."
3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening - (Prejudice - racial & of "non members")
4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts -(spiritual feeling interpreted to mean church is completely true, when it may be just a particular personally inspiring aspect... I was taught that if something did not fit neatly into dictated beliefs (ie articles of faith or GA statements) then, it should be discounted automatically..Also, many members assume that people who go "inactive" have done something wrong or are somehow misguided for leaving the church & such people are thus shunned & treated badly.)
5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster - "LAST DAYS!!!" Fear of God and Satan.
6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing - Many take celebrities & political figures as if they represent them personally, because they are Mormon.
7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control) - ie story of Joseph Smith being victimized, when he also hurt others.

8. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain - (I've never read that Jesus ex-communicated nor disfellowshipped even "the least of these.")
9. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept (Too many "shoulds" to name. One incorrect shaming is about sex, so many Mormons even struggle sexually after marriage)
10. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't) - (I've been taught that Mormonism has a monopoly on the companionship of spirit.)
11. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true) ... (There is the teaching that "non-members" are lacking and must change to our ways, as if our way is the only way and that if we convince someone to go our way, we will be happy.)
12. Global Labeling - Generalizing - I was taught that anything outside the beliefs of the church is wrong, but everything said by church leaders is God's word and should not be questioned.
13. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct - (This goes along with Personalization - where members perceive any praise or criticism of the church as praise or criticism of them, obvious on forums - not just between members and non-members but even within members.
14. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life. More energy & money is given to try to help those who have died, than those who are alive.

Thinker wrote:

ChelC wrote:Thinker - I don't believe you. I don't believe your intentions are to get people to direct their tithes to the poor. I believe that your intentions are to get people to question the leadership as you do. I fear for you. It is not charity leading you, brother. I've seen charity. It doesn't look like this.

It doesn't matter if you believe me or not.
As Joseph Smith taught, the truth will carve itself - eventually you'll realize it.
I'd rather it be sooner than later, because (& this is my agenda if you want to call it that...)

1. There are many suffering who I care about & have witnessed extreme poverty & who deserve 1/3 of tithes as instructed (but hidden as finances are hidden from LDS leaders) in Deut 14:28-29. (This scripture is not included in LDS bible topical guides/dictionaries.)

So you are taking one portion of scripture, directed to the ancient Israelites, and you are using it to condemn the leaders of the church today? Do you also eat as prescribed within the same chapter? And what did the ancient Israelites do about fast offerings, or don't you believe in those?

2. The church exploits members, especially financially, requiring tithes to be considered "worthy" & requiring members to pay tithes before bills, to church leaders who then hide finances & don't share a penny with those in need.

So, do you believe that tithes are required of us? If so, the church has an obligation to teach the truth of that doesn't it?

3. The church teaches cognitive distortions that lead to mental illness.
Utah, the only state so influenced by Mormonism, leads the nation in anti-depressants (twice the national average!).
Here are some of the thinking distortions taught by the church that contribute to members' & others' suffering:

1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative...In church, I've gotten the message that I am not good enough, no matter how much I serve & give & that even if I do a lot & don't pay tithing to the church but instead to the poor, I am unworthy.

I heard just the opposite message in General Conference. We hear what we want to hear.

2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix) - BI-POLAR thinking: "The church is either true or not." "You are either on the Lord's side or you aren't."

The polarized thinking I see here is the one that says the church either must obey tithing as commanded the Israelites or else it is corrupt.

3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening - (Prejudice - racial & of "non members")

I'm not sure I follow your accusation here.

4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts -(spiritual feeling interpreted to mean church is completely true, when it may be just a particular personally inspiring aspect... I was taught that if something did not fit neatly into dictated beliefs (ie articles of faith or GA statements) then, it should be discounted automatically..Also, many members assume that people who go "inactive" have done something wrong or are somehow misguided for leaving the church & such people are thus shunned & treated badly.)

Or perhaps assuming that the church leaders are corrupt because they don't do things the way you expect without all the facts might be called jumping to conclusions.

5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster - "LAST DAYS!!!" Fear of God and Satan.

I'm pretty sure that scripture makes the case here. You've taken two verses of scripture and used them to condemn the church but look past many, many scriptures which point this out as a fact that most any denomination counts on.

6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing - Many take celebrities & political figures as if they represent them personally, because they are Mormon.

Again, not following your accusation here.

7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control) - ie story of Joseph Smith being victimized, when he also hurt others.

Maybe choosing to be offended by people at church who condemn our behavior while condemning theirs, and that of the entire church?

8. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain - (I've never read that Jesus ex-communicated nor disfellowshipped even "the least of these.")

So, you don't believe the Doctrine and Covenants to be inspired?

9. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept (Too many "shoulds" to name. One incorrect shaming is about sex, so many Mormons even struggle sexually after marriage)

So are we talking about leadership, individuals, or the church as a whole? I have not seen shaming as part of doctrine or practice in the church. I have seen some individuals using it. The church is full of imperfect people.

10. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't) - (I've been taught that Mormonism has a monopoly on the companionship of spirit.)

Again, what is your accusation? Our doctrine is NOT that we have a monopoly on feeling the Spirit. Whoever taught you so was mistaken.

11. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true) ... (There is the teaching that "non-members" are lacking and must change to our ways, as if our way is the only way and that if we convince someone to go our way, we will be happy.)

So, you don't believe in sharing the gospel? Or do you not believe it's found in our church?

12. Global Labeling - Generalizing - I was taught that anything outside the beliefs of the church is wrong, but everything said by church leaders is God's word and should not be questioned.

You have a lot of strange teachers. You should get some new ones.

13. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct - (This goes along with Personalization - where members perceive any praise or criticism of the church as praise or criticism of them, obvious on forums - not just between members and non-members but even within members.

I hope we all strive to find out the truth. It's a common human flaw to want to be right. I don't see that as a Mormon problem.

14. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life. More energy & money is given to try to help those who have died, than those who are alive.

Who taught you that? We aren't taught that suffering brings reward. I've never heard that taught. Your second sentence there is absolutely false in all the wards I've participated in.

ChelC wrote:

Thinker wrote:

ChelC wrote:Thinker - I don't believe you. I don't believe your intentions are to get people to direct their tithes to the poor. I believe that your intentions are to get people to question the leadership as you do. I fear for you. It is not charity leading you, brother. I've seen charity. It doesn't look like this.

It doesn't matter if you believe me or not.
As Joseph Smith taught, the truth will carve itself - eventually you'll realize it.
I'd rather it be sooner than later, because (& this is my agenda if you want to call it that...)

1. There are many suffering who I care about & have witnessed extreme poverty & who deserve 1/3 of tithes as instructed (but hidden as finances are hidden from LDS leaders) in Deut 14:28-29. (This scripture is not included in LDS bible topical guides/dictionaries.)

So you are taking one portion of scripture, directed to the ancient Israelites, and you are using it to condemn the leaders of the church today? Do you also eat as prescribed within the same chapter? And what did the ancient Israelites do about fast offerings, or don't you believe in those?

2. The church exploits members, especially financially, requiring tithes to be considered "worthy" & requiring members to pay tithes before bills, to church leaders who then hide finances & don't share a penny with those in need.

So, do you believe that tithes are required of us? If so, the church has an obligation to teach the truth of that doesn't it?

3. The church teaches cognitive distortions that lead to mental illness.
Utah, the only state so influenced by Mormonism, leads the nation in anti-depressants (twice the national average!).
Here are some of the thinking distortions taught by the church that contribute to members' & others' suffering:

1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative...In church, I've gotten the message that I am not good enough, no matter how much I serve & give & that even if I do a lot & don't pay tithing to the church but instead to the poor, I am unworthy.

I heard just the opposite message in General Conference. We hear what we want to hear.

2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix) - BI-POLAR thinking: "The church is either true or not." "You are either on the Lord's side or you aren't."

The polarized thinking I see here is the one that says the church either must obey tithing as commanded the Israelites or else it is corrupt.

3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening - (Prejudice - racial & of "non members")

I'm not sure I follow your accusation here.

4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts -(spiritual feeling interpreted to mean church is completely true, when it may be just a particular personally inspiring aspect... I was taught that if something did not fit neatly into dictated beliefs (ie articles of faith or GA statements) then, it should be discounted automatically..Also, many members assume that people who go "inactive" have done something wrong or are somehow misguided for leaving the church & such people are thus shunned & treated badly.)

Or perhaps assuming that the church leaders are corrupt because they don't do things the way you expect without all the facts might be called jumping to conclusions.

5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster - "LAST DAYS!!!" Fear of God and Satan.

I'm pretty sure that scripture makes the case here. You've taken two verses of scripture and used them to condemn the church but look past many, many scriptures which point this out as a fact that most any denomination counts on.

6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing - Many take celebrities & political figures as if they represent them personally, because they are Mormon.

Again, not following your accusation here.

7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control) - ie story of Joseph Smith being victimized, when he also hurt others.

Maybe choosing to be offended by people at church who condemn our behavior while condemning theirs, and that of the entire church?

8. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain - (I've never read that Jesus ex-communicated nor disfellowshipped even "the least of these.")

So, you don't believe the Doctrine and Covenants to be inspired?

9. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept (Too many "shoulds" to name. One incorrect shaming is about sex, so many Mormons even struggle sexually after marriage)

So are we talking about leadership, individuals, or the church as a whole? I have not seen shaming as part of doctrine or practice in the church. I have seen some individuals using it. The church is full of imperfect people.

10. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't) - (I've been taught that Mormonism has a monopoly on the companionship of spirit.)

Again, what is your accusation? Our doctrine is NOT that we have a monopoly on feeling the Spirit. Whoever taught you so was mistaken.

11. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true) ... (There is the teaching that "non-members" are lacking and must change to our ways, as if our way is the only way and that if we convince someone to go our way, we will be happy.)

So, you don't believe in sharing the gospel? Or do you not believe it's found in our church?

12. Global Labeling - Generalizing - I was taught that anything outside the beliefs of the church is wrong, but everything said by church leaders is God's word and should not be questioned.

You have a lot of strange teachers. You should get some new ones.

13. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct - (This goes along with Personalization - where members perceive any praise or criticism of the church as praise or criticism of them, obvious on forums - not just between members and non-members but even within members.

I hope we all strive to find out the truth. It's a common human flaw to want to be right. I don't see that as a Mormon problem.

14. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life. More energy & money is given to try to help those who have died, than those who are alive.

Who taught you that? We aren't taught that suffering brings reward. I've never heard that taught. Your second sentence there is absolutely false in all the wards I've participated in.

You have a lot of interesting ideas. It's clear to me that your anger toward the church is beyond any answers anyone could give you. It's too bad. I bet that if you learned to be more charitable toward your fellow members, you would find happiness in the church.

coachmarc wrote:Thinker, I gotta say I admire your passion. Perhaps some day, hopefully soon, you will focus that passion on laboring in the Lord's vineyard as He intended. I'm sure you read my previous post, but skipped right over it in your zeal to continue with your fixation. No worries. I have to assume you're LDS and if so, you're preaching to the choir. If not, then I invite you to dig deeper and understand that Jesus Christ is STILL laboring in the vineyard (Jacob 5). Yes, people are starving everywhere and they were starving while our Savior walked the earth:

1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

You see, Thinker, man does not live by bread alone. Proper study of ALL the scriptures will enable you to understand the most important work of the Lord:

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

You are focused and fixated on one tree and missing the point and purpose of the entire forest--or shall I say vineyard? Do you understand the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees? Prophets like Zenos, Isaiah, Nephi, etc, etc, etc, understood the most important work, which the Lord began before the world was and is STILL working diligently to this day and WILL NOT STOP until it is finished and after the millennium, He presents the celestialized earth to His Father. Perhaps when you have caught this vision, you will make an amazing missionary and bring souls unto Christ.

coachmarc wrote:The OP asked, "What would Jesus do." If I left my own commentary out, what remains, still, are quotes from the Savior Himself. And does He not call us to His work even today? To labor in His vineyard? All the scriptures point to an affirmative answer. With that said, I take my leave of this thread.

AussieOi wrote:

coachmarc wrote:The OP asked, "What would Jesus do." If I left my own commentary out, what remains, still, are quotes from the Savior Himself. And does He not call us to His work even today? To labor in His vineyard? All the scriptures point to an affirmative answer. With that said, I take my leave of this thread.

so if i understand you, you are saying thet jesus would let the billions starve, and the children die, so that he could go preach to wealthy white/ semi-white people (which is where 90% of our missionary efforts are directed).

is that right?