Church leader: Loss of freedoms is our fault

[Ben McClintock]

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/our-loss ... our-fault/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mormon Chronicle EXCLUSIVE! Never before available personal writings of Elder H. Verlan Andersen.

One reason the conservative movement has not succeeded in halting the trend toward the welfare state is lack of unity and lack of a definite philosophy. Although there have been an enormous number of people over the years who have spoken out strongly against each new program and each new innovation, somehow the opposition to centralized government has not been organized well enough to bring the trend to a halt.

read the rest at the link above

[marc]

Agreed. And the early saints could not live the United Order. Today some people won't even pay their tithes and offerings. The celestial kingdom is not for everyone.

[BroJones]

I loved to listen to General Conf talks by Elder H Verlan Andersen.
BTW, I am acquainted with his grand-daughter and her husband -- great couple, just moved back to Utah (some financial straits I understand). Also knew his daughter and son -- great family!

You can be sure the Lord is well aware of what is happening in His restored Church -- hence the prophetic warning in D&C 112: "upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth," (speaking of the judgments...)

DC 112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me,...

[dauser]

One reason the conservative movement has not succeeded in halting the trend toward the welfare state is lack of unity and lack of a definite philosophy. Although there have been an enormous number of people over the years who have spoken out strongly against each new program and each new innovation, somehow the opposition to centralized government has not been organized well enough to bring the trend to a halt.

Many people in the church have bought into satan's gospel very well with few exceptions.

Members are not going to get a definitive philosophy on the proper role of governnent in church.

The church must maintain nutrality to maintain a safe place for the wheat and tares to grow up together until both are fully ripe.

Public, oppressive, tax based, socialist, government union education preaching satan's gospel in practice and theory 5 days a week trumps The Church in the minds of many LDS families.

[jonesde]

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/our-loss ... our-fault/

Mormon Chronicle EXCLUSIVE! Never before available personal writings of Elder H. Verlan Andersen.

One reason the conservative movement has not succeeded in halting the trend toward the welfare state is lack of unity and lack of a definite philosophy. Although there have been an enormous number of people over the years who have spoken out strongly against each new program and each new innovation, somehow the opposition to centralized government has not been organized well enough to bring the trend to a halt.

read the rest at the link above

Is this saying that "loss of freedom is our fault" or is just explaining some of the mechanics of how this had been done, and one possible remedy that has not been successful?

On the other hand, does this also mean the efforts to proselyte and preach repentance and spread the message of Christ's teachings have failed? I don't mean to imply that prophets are guaranteed to succeed, in fact there are so many cases where prophets were there to warn before a final condemnation. Is that what is happening now as prophets preach repentance and evil spreads and takes over faster and faster?

[Rensai]

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/our-loss ... our-fault/

Mormon Chronicle EXCLUSIVE! Never before available personal writings of Elder H. Verlan Andersen.

One reason the conservative movement has not succeeded in halting the trend toward the welfare state is lack of unity and lack of a definite philosophy. Although there have been an enormous number of people over the years who have spoken out strongly against each new program and each new innovation, somehow the opposition to centralized government has not been organized well enough to bring the trend to a halt.

read the rest at the link above

Is this saying that "loss of freedom is our fault" or is just explaining some of the mechanics of how this had been done, and one possible remedy that has not been successful?

On the other hand, does this also mean the efforts to proselyte and preach repentance and spread the message of Christ's teachings have failed? I don't mean to imply that prophets are guaranteed to succeed, in fact there are so many cases where prophets were there to warn before a final condemnation. Is that what is happening now as prophets preach repentance and evil spreads and takes over faster and faster?

I don't know the answer, but I can share some quotes and venture a guess.

"There is more sin and evil in the world now than there has been at any time since the day of Noah, when the Lord felt disposed to destroy the world by flood so that He could send His spirit children to earth in a better and more righteous environment. . . . There is some degree of worldliness in all of us, and we overcome the world by degrees." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Ricks College Baccalaureate Services, 7 May 1971, cited in Church News, 15 May 1971, p. 3)

"Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the government as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, and confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the president of the United States; it is not Hitler; it is not Mussolini; it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself.." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:315)

"Our world is now much the same as it was in the days of the Nephite prophet who said: ‘if it were not for the prayers of the righteous . . . ye would even now be visited with utter destruction.’ (Alma 10:22) Of course, there are many upright and faithful who live all the commandments and whose lives and prayers keep the world from destruction. We are living in the last days, and they are precarious and frightening. The shadows are deepening, and the night creeps in to envelop us." (President Kimball, April Conf. 1971)

“Our world is in turmoil. It is aging toward senility. It is very ill. Long ago it was born with brilliant prospects. It was baptized by water, and its sins were washed away. It was never baptized by fire, for that is still to come. It has had shorter periods of good health, but longer ones of ailing. Most of the time there have been pains and aches in some parts of its anatomy, but now that it is growing old, complications have set in, and all the ailments seem to be everywhere.

“The world has been ‘cliniced,’ and the complex diseases have been catalogued. The physicians have had summit consultations, and temporary salve has been rubbed on afflicted parts, but it has only postponed the fatal day and never cured it. It seems that while remedies have been applied, staph infection has set in, and the patient’s suffering intensified. His mind is wandering. It cannot remember its previous illnesses nor the cure which was applied. The political physicians through the ages have rejected suggested remedies as unprofessional since they came from lowly prophets. Man being what he is with tendencies such as he has, results can be prognosticated with some degree of accuracy.” (Spencer W. Kimball in CR, Oct. 1961, p. 30.)

"Our challenge today . . . is to be a light unto the world. . . . If the three million members of the church would live the gospel principles all errors of the world would evaporate. The world would come to us, and we would change the frustrations of the world to the peace of the gospel." (President Kimball, Church News, 26 Feb. 1972, p.13)

Thinking back just in my relatively short lifetime, I can see many signs of evil increasing in the united states. I doubt anyone would disagree with that much. Given the last statement from President Kimball, we are failing and share some blame collectively as a church. It feels to me like we have reached that final point that so many BoM prophets talked about, where all they can do is preach repentance to save as many as they can before the Lord's justice is meted out to the wicked.

[Original_Intent]

I agree, the problem is that there is not a simple, easy to explain and understand message that people can rally behind.

And I have sat down and tried to come up with such a set of principles myself from time to time. But I always end up, rather than keeping it simple, I find that i have to keep adding explanations, clarifications, exceptions, and soon it is no longer a simple statement of principles.

Also, I am beginning to despair that there is even a group that could get behind such a set of principles. We cannot even agree on how much agency an individual should have regarding drugs. Even among well intentioned and I believe active and believing LDS, we have a range of opinions from extremely libertarian to extremely authitarian and I would say bordering on supporting a soviet style police state to enforce.

And I am quite certain, based on my experience, that there is similar range of belief on abortion and under what circumstances, if any, that it is ever acceptable. And I suspect that the same would hold true on pretty much any subject.

So possibly the problem is not that there is no such list of simple principles, but that we as a people are incapable of even agreeing on some very basic and fundamental principles in the first place. And we may well have to suffer under the extremes of both the totalitarians as well as the anarchists to be humbled enough to acknowledge and accept such a set of principles.

Or possibly we will be destroyed ot the point that we return to tribal living, and tribes that adhere to correct principles will thrive under God's promise, and those who do not will dwindle and fail, also according to God's promise.

[lundbaek]

Just in my 52 years a member of the Church I can recall Presidents McKay, Clark, Benson, and various apostles telling us what we Latter-day Saints had to do in order to protect our freedoms. But far too many members were too smart and knew better, and we fumbled the ball. I consider Mitt Romney and his LDS cheerleaders part of that group.

[Thinker]

Agreed. And the early saints could not live the United Order. Today some people won't even pay their tithes and offerings. The celestial kingdom is not for everyone.

Read what you just wrote again, Coachmarc.

Did Jesus ever require payment into the celestial kingdom?

Let's see... Luke 17:21 talks about the kingdom of God...
"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them & said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:20-21

Anyone who tries to make you believe salvation can be paid for by cash, is selling something ungodly & not of Christ.

[HeirofNumenor]

Did Jesus ever require payment into the celestial kingdom?

Malachi 3
8 ¶Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

[Nan]

Just in my 52 years a member of the Church I can recall Presidents McKay, Clark, Benson, and various apostles telling us what we Latter-day Saints had to do in order to protect our freedoms. But far too many members were too smart and knew better, and we fumbled the ball. I consider Mitt Romney and his LDS cheerleaders part of that group.

Now this a post that I find judgmental and offensive.
I support Mitt Romney.

Frankly, the church can't even get our members to be obedient to simple commandments. They keep asking us to just keep the commandments like staying morally clean. If they can't get us to be obedient to the basic commandments why on earth do you think they could get people to listen about freedom. We won't stay free spiritually. I submit that it is more important to be free spiritually. And that you can't be truly free in any other way if you are not free spiritually. I also think we will be judged much more about how we kept the commandments than who we voted for. As things continue to get worse, being free spiritually will only get more important. So that leaves me with the question, am I spiritually free? Or am I in bondage to satan?

[lundbaek]

And I calls 'em as I sees 'em with no apologies. Mitt Romney and many of his LDS cheerleaders have had every opportunity to know what Presidents McKay, Clark, Benson, and various apostles told us about what we Latter-day Saints had to do in order to protect our freedom. They have chosen a different route which demonstrates disdain for the words of prophets and apostles spoken in general conferences.

[Nan]

And I calls 'em as I sees 'em with no apologies. Mitt Romney and many of his LDS cheerleaders have had every opportunity to know what Presidents McKay, Clark, Benson, and various apostles told us about what we Latter-day Saints had to do in order to protect our freedom. They have chosen a different route which demonstrates disdain for the words of prophets and apostles spoken in general conferences.

And what if you are the one who is wrong? I haven't "choosen" a different route just because I don't support the person you support. It is actually quite arrogant to decide everyone else is wrong and only you could possibly be right and not be fooled. The Book of Mormon is actually quite clear that we are supposed to choose leaders that have the right to revelation. Your choice doesn't not have that.

[lundbaek]

Some of you have chosen to support a candidate for POTUS who doesn't understand the principles of the US Constitution, doesn't understand his responsibility to them, and/or doesn't have the integrity to be guided by them. What have latter-day prophets and ap;ostles said about that ?

[Nan]

Some of you have chosen to support a candidate for POTUS who doesn't understand the principles of the US Constitution, doesn't understand his responsibility to them, and/or doesn't have the integrity to be guided by them. What have latter-day prophets and ap;ostles said about that ?

It is only your judgement that he doesn't have integrity. The funny thing is Mitt is actually known for having integrity. Sometimes you act like following the exact way you think someone should follow the constitution is the only thing that matters. It doesn't. We are supposed to choose righteous leaders with the spirit of Prophecy. Ron Paul does not fit that. While I think he is a good man, he does not have the Holy Ghost. He only has the light of Christ. Further more it appears to me that Ron Paul and Mitt Romney are friends. Ron Paul has stayed at the Romney's home. They never criticize each other. So maybe Ron Paul doesn't actually have the same problem with Mitt that you seem to have.

[Ben McClintock]

I don't care if Ron doesn't have the same problem with Willard that I or Lund have. As you said Ron "only has the light of Christ" and isn't able to have the Holy Ghost witness to him the satanic nature of Willard

[uglypitbull]

heh heh.....did someone say the satanic nature of Willard?

[AussieOi]

The Book of Mormon is actually quite clear that we are supposed to choose leaders that have the right to revelation. Your choice doesn't not have that.

By their fruits ye shall know them

back to the thread. loss of freedoms. sigh.
so sad that the USA LDS church doesnt fight gadiantons anymore
Now we seem to give them doctorates
Is it a bit rich to blame the members of today for the omissions of those white LDS in Utah in the 60s, 70s 80s and early 90s?

[karen2cruise]

Is it a bit rich to blame the members of today for the omissions of those white LDS in Utah in the 60s, 70s 80s and early 90s?

There was no omission. I would just like to say it is because of the 70's white Utah LDS who ran the Freeman institute as to why I am a Constitution-loving person. The efforts in those days to educate everyone to the greatness of America was really put forth. I was introduced to it at off campus at BYU and continued my studies after graduation in California workshops through the early 80's. There were many who did listen. They held classes at Knott's Berry Farm replica of Philadelphia's Independence Hall. It was a great experience.

I then educated my children, neighbors, family and friends of the principles i learned there.

[lundbaek]

Unfortunately, the efforts of the Freeman Insitute influenced too few people. It later evolved into the National Center for Constitutional Studies, which still thrives today, although it too reaches too few people.

[GeeR]

I predict the two witnesses (Rev.11) are graduates of the now defunct Freeman Institute. Don’t lose hope!

[marc]

Did Jesus ever require payment into the celestial kingdom?

Malachi 3
8 ¶Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Thank you, Heir. The law of tithing is a lesser law of the United Order and the law of consecration. It is not a money commandment. It is an obedience commandment. It has been since the foundation of the world. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, not because he was buying his way into heaven, but because he was being obedient. The Lord instructed the Israelites again through Malachi and again to the Nephites in Bountiful to pay tithes and offerings. If God chose, He would fill the Energy Solutions Arena/Delta Center with gold to take care of the poor and needy. But that would defeat the purpose of teaching all of us the law of sacrifice.

[jonesde]

If God chose, He would fill the Energy Solutions Arena/Delta Center with gold to take care of the poor and needy. But that would defeat the purpose of teaching all of us the law of sacrifice.

Getting back to the loss of freedoms theme, and related to this idea...

Nothing can replace the law of the harvest either... or in this case the law of work. Gold is just a way to get other people to do things, and if there was so much gold all of a sudden it would no longer be motivating to people and would not have the desired result.

One way or another the only way to have food, clothing, shelter, or any other temporal thing is through work, either one's own or someone else's by some sort of influence (exchange, threats, love, etc).

Perhaps the greatest sin of the modern world is not the lack of charity, but of using force to restrict both opportunity to work and how work is done. If people cannot provide for themselves the need for charity becomes a chronic thing instead of a temporary circumstance in extreme cases for a small part of the population.

[lundbaek]

"Unless we members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable."

The Lord stated in D&C 101:77 that He suffered the Constitution to be established, and in Verse 80 that He established the Constitution of this land by the hands of wise men whom He raised up unto that very purpose. Prophets and apostles reminded us over and over that the original government of the United States was established
under the inspiration of the Lord. And President J. Reuben Clark even went so far as to state that the Constitution is "in the position in which it would be if it were written in this book of Doctrine and Covenants itself." This has been ignored by most Mormons.

Almost every prophet in this dispensation has stressed the importance of our studying, defending, upholding and abiding by the Constitution. This has been ignored by most Mormons.

We have been told by a prophet that "we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers." "We should understand the Constitution as the founders meant that it should be understood." This has been ignored by most Mormons.

The Lord intended for the original Constitution of the United States and its princples to take root in the United States, and then thru example set in this country become a beacon such that people in other countries would become desirious of the same republican form of government and strive to attain such for their nations. This has been ignored by most Mormons. And as a result just the opposite has been happening. The US government is becoming increasingly like the governments of other nations.

Several prophets have warned that we have apostatized in various ways from the Constitution. This has been ignored by most Mormons.

"For years we have heard of the role the elders could play in saving the Constitution from total destruction. But how can the elders be expected to save it if they have not studied it and are not sure if it is being destroyed or what is destroying it ?"

"The men who framed the Constitution were directed by the Spirit of the Lord in establishing the basic freedoms guaranteed the citizens of this country....c..."The Constitution was established through the inspiration of God to preserve the liberty of the people and to maintain his promise." (Principles of the Gospel, Page 135-136, Page 146-147, Published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1991)

[GeeR]

Don't give up on the members yet, it ain't over until the fat lady sings. I think this will be part of the "test" Heber C. Kimball prophesied about. Those that pass the test that are debt free and self-sufficient (those that have separated themselves from Babylon) will rally around the Constitution and integrate it into the soon to be government of Zion. In our hymn: High on a Mountain Top the words—“the law will go forth with truth and wisdom frought to govern all the earth" refers to the U.S. Constitution. Besides all those quotes about the Constitution hanging by a thread spoken of by Joseph Smith always end with (and I paraphrase) they will win out over the foe, or words to that affect. I don't think that we should look down on the members too badly when there seems to be a prophetic timetable involved that we might not have factored in.