LDS Freedom Forum

Elder Perry spoke of the example of Limhi vs Alma in Grneral Conference. He didn't say this specifically, but what do we think about this topic?


LIMHI
The people of Limhi reacted to bondage by continually going to war with the Lamanites. Limhi's people were beaten back again and again. At one point the Book of Mormon says: "And now there was a great mourning and lamentation among the people of Limhi, the widow mourning for her husband, the son and the daughter mourning for their father, and the brothers for their brethren.".

However, the people of Limhi were not delivered at this time. The Book of Mormon says the Lord was slow to hear their prayers until: "they did humble themselves even to the dust, subjecting themselves to the yoke of bondage, submitting themselves to be smitten, and to be driven to and fro, and burdened, according to the desires of their enemies".

While a free people are commanded to defend their freedom even to the point of shedding blood if necessary. Difficult as it is to realize, God's requirements for deliverance were: 1. patient submission to bondage, 2. humbling themselves before God, 3. caring for the widows, and 4. crying mightily to God for deliverance.

As I see it. If the Russians are to nuke and invade the US then the US will have to turn against Gods covenant people in some way. And Gods Covenant people would not be in bondage unless some of them had broken their covenants. With the awakening of the Pacific Ring of Fire(HAARP) are we going to see a Wasatch Fault EQ and a massive FEMA response. Watching and having participated in drills, will the LDS appreciate the extent of the response? How would LDS respond/react?

davedan wrote:And Gods Covenant people would not be in bondage unless some of them had broken their covenants.

While I agree that is usually true, sometimes righteous people come under bondage through no fault of their own.

For as Moroni explained, God has to allow the wicked their agency and he can't always deliver the righteous.

While a free people are commanded to defend their freedom even to the point of shedding blood if necessary. What about the submission to bondage part?

[quote="davedan"]What about the submission to bondage part?[quote]

Yes, I'm afraid often the best choice is just to submit until further help arrives to deliver you, but you must pray for and be worthy of that deliverance.

But one important point is, the people didn't just submit, they also used 'all' their spare time to continually meet together to talk & figure out ways they might deliver themselves.

So I think that teaches us that we must be actively doing all we can on our end of things, and then Heavenly Father can often provide the way for our deliverance.

I believe we are as the people of Limhi today. Everyone is in great bondage, but few seem to realize it.

We must be continually talking & thinking of how we might get delivered and pray for that deliverance.

The reason why Limhi's people submitted to bondage was because of their own transgressions and murders. They were fearful that they would not be able to be cleansed after taking another life. They had no such stigma about their 2000 sons taking up the fight, however, in their protection. To them, not fighting, was a sacrifice and I'm sure very difficult but was part of their covenant to never again shed blood. Alma and Amulek, however, were pure and cleansed from sin and though suffering in bondage for a short period they were delivered by the power of God from the prison. Is the bondage of sin greater than the bondage of a FEMA? Must I stand on my Rameumptom to worship the Lord? Freedom is a Heavenly gift which no one can take from us no matter what pit we are cast into. Truths, "Self evident" they are!

awake wrote:Everyone is in great bondage, but few seem to realize it.

This is the key! As long as Dancing With the Stars, the "game", and American Idol are on, it's all good! All is well in Zion! Yea, Zion prospereth!

You can't come out of bondage until you realize you're in it.

gr8ideas wrote:The reason why Limhi's people submitted to bondage was because of their own transgressions and murders. They were fearful that they would not be able to be cleansed after taking another life. They had no such stigma about their 2000 sons taking up the fight, however, in their protection. To them, not fighting, was a sacrifice and I'm sure very difficult but was part of their covenant to never again shed blood. Alma and Amulek, however, were pure and cleansed from sin and though suffering in bondage for a short period they were delivered by the power of God from the prison. Is the bondage of sin greater than the bondage of a FEMA? Must I stand on my Rameumptom to worship the Lord? Freedom is a Heavenly gift which no one can take from us no matter what pit we are cast into. Truths, "Self evident" they are!

Though the Anti Lehi Nephis did covenant to not fight anymore because of their repentance, it was really because of their 'great love' for their enemies that they refused to fight. It is said that never before, even among the Nephites was there ever such love shown by anyone.

Heavenly Father doesn't always deliver people from bondage. For every successful deliverance story like with Alma and Amulek, there are also Abinadi's and the righteous women & children thrown in the fire, not to mention Christ and his Apostles, including Joseph Smith who were never delivered in this life.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: You can't come out of bondage until you realize you're in it.

Amen!

If you don't know your in bondage you can't pray for help getting out.

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

awake wrote:Everyone is in great bondage, but few seem to realize it.

This is the key! As long as Dancing With the Stars, the "game", and American Idol are on, it's all good! All is well in Zion! Yea, Zion prospereth!

You can't come out of bondage until you realize you're in it.

Don't forget to add LDSFF to that list! Mummy/Jason is free! I guess I just can't bear freedom.... yet.

Rand wrote:

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

awake wrote:Everyone is in great bondage, but few seem to realize it.

This is the key! As long as Dancing With the Stars, the "game", and American Idol are on, it's all good! All is well in Zion! Yea, Zion prospereth!

You can't come out of bondage until you realize you're in it.

Don't forget to add LDSFF to that list! Mummy/Jason is free! I guess I just can't bear freedom.... yet.

Haha... I have a feeling he's still lurking around these parts.

It might be possible that someone is confusing the people of King Limhi with the Anti-Nephi-Lehis who were converted by Ammon under king Lamoni and his father. Two completely different situations. King Limhi's people were wicked because of Limhi's father, King Noah who burned Abinadi for testifying against him and his people and their wickedness. They had the gospel and the rejected it. Therefor the Lord was slow to hear their cries. The Anti-Nephi-Lehis, originally Lamanites, were ignorant of the laws of God, had no idea who God was and embraced the gospel, which was taught to them by Mosiah's sons, to the point where they buried their weapons of war as a token of their covenants with the Lord that they would never again shed the blood of their brethren. They had gained a perfect knowledge of their God and salvation that they would rather suffer the most horrible death than to ever fight again. And they proved it.

As for Alma the elder and the 450 people that went with him to settle the land of Helam, they became righteous, but they had to repent after their wickedness among Noah's people and they were baptized by Alma, which caused their exodus from the City of Nephi. And they lived peaceably until they were discovered by Amulon and the Lamanities who then made Limhi's people their captives. The Lord tested Alma's people with a little period of bondage and because they were already a penitent and meek people, they didn't have to suffer long before the Lord led them back to Zarahemla to reunite with King Mosiah's people.

davedan wrote:
However, the people of Limhi were not delivered at this time. The Book of Mormon says the Lord was slow to hear their prayers until: "they did humble themselves even to the dust, subjecting themselves to the yoke of bondage, submitting themselves to be smitten, and to be driven to and fro, and burdened, according to the desires of their enemies".

While a free people are commanded to defend their freedom even to the point of shedding blood if necessary. Difficult as it is to realize, God's requirements for deliverance were: 1. patient submission to bondage, 2. humbling themselves before God, 3. caring for the widows, and 4. crying mightily to God for deliverance.
?

I would submit that the people of Limhi and Alma came into bondage because that was the fulfillment of prophecy (Mosiah 11:20-25). THey were warned that they would be brought into bondage "except they repent." They did not repent. Two years later Abinadi came again (Mosiah 12:2). Repentance would not save them from the prophesied bondage now. Abinadi was martyred. Alma repented, as did those that believed him. They soon realize they are being watched and they escape into the wilderness. While their repentance was good, it was too late to escape the consequences, and they also had to go into bondage, though it seems to me that they did not suffer from it to the extent that Limhi's people did.

I think Limhi's people had some things they needed to learn. In Mosiah 20:22 Limhi's people state that life is more important than liberty. The children of Israel said the same thing to Moses in Exodus 14:12.

"Our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion; this stand helped get us to earth, and our reaction to freedom in this life will have eternal consequences. Man has many duties, but he has no excuse that can compensate for his loss of liberty." Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"--Patrick Henry

coachmarc wrote:The Lord tested Alma's people with a little period of bondage and because they were already a penitent and meek people, they didn't have to suffer long before the Lord led them back to Zarahemla to reunite with King Mosiah's people.

coachmarc is correct if you go back and read the whole story - I thought it was interesting though that Elder Perry didn't mention this part of the story in his talk. He mentioned that the people of Limhi had to be humbled (kept going to war and kept getting beat before they eventually humbled themselves and turned to God) and were left in bondage for quite some time before being delivered, while those with Alma were delivered much quicker. In Mosiah 24 we get these details - but although they were left in bondage for a period of time, God lightened their burdens even while in bondage and then eventually delivered them.

Anyway, I may be making a stretch, but I thought it was interesting that Elder Perry didn't mention this part of the story (God lightening their burdens while in bondage), he just compared/contrasted the quicker time that Alma's people were delivered vs. Limhi's people. I remember 3-4 years ago when I went through my own personal "awakening" that I didn't think I could endure this "Babylonian" world much longer. It's fascinating that now as I look back and I can see multiple times through the past few years where God has definitely "lightened my burdens" - I'm now just hoping that the "time of deliverance" is soon.

Just my thoughts/prayers at this time.

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