Assuming it's the Communists . . .

[John Adams]

OK, so rcronk feels that 9/11 has lots of miscommunication surrounding it and Mark feels that the Communists are the bad guys. So now what?

If rcronk's continual quest for truth surrounding the Conspiracy Discussions of 9/11 is because he thinks that the bad guys (rcronk - who are your bad guys?) are just using it as a ploy to get us to argue about things and go no where, then I agree that maybe we should move on to something more constructive.

However, if we feel that the ongoing discussions help people awake to the awful situation surrounding them, then I think we should keep talking.

So rcronk, if 9/11 was exactly how the government report said it was, what is it you recommend that people be doing instead of all this questioning?

And Mark, we actually agree with you that the Communists are bad, but why is that your main focus and what do you think can be done about it? Do you feel that if we support our government more that we will eventually take on and win against the Russians & Chinese?

Another reason (to add to the many that have already been posted by me and others) I want to discuss these other things (the other things being that 9/11 could have been an inside job, President Bush & the government are taking away our rights, there is a movement toward a NWO, etc.) is that we as a people need to get out of debt and need to get some food storage. I still think too many people think that President Bush is a good guy who is beating all the bad guys and all is well in Zion. What are your "other" reasons for discussing things on this forum?

Rcronk & Mark - The more you go back to your ongoing push to prove to the rest of us that 9/11 wasn't a conspiracy and that the Communists are the only bad guys, the more you seem to come across as not willing to discuss anything else--hence the frustration from everyone else.

I feel the reason for this site was to learn more about the Constitution and discuss how to defend it, to learn more about the LDG's and to defend ourselves against them, and how to communicate these ideas to others. (Brian please comment if I'm off base)

My impression (only my impression--you can disagree if you would like) from you two is that if we would just support President Bush then all would be well in Zion - and if we don't start supporting the President then you can't wait to see the Russians come over and take us out so you can say "I told you so."

Some follow-up questions:

1. What are your thoughts on the Constitution (I haven't heard much from either of you on this subject)?

2. Who do you think is involved in the Secret Combinations (and what should we be doing about it)?

[Mark]

My impression (only my impression--you can disagree if you would like) from you two is that if we would just support President Bush then all would be well in Zion - and if we don't start supporting the President then you can't wait to see the Russians come over and take us out so you can say "I told you so."

I feel saddened that I have not been able to effectively communicate my concerns for this country to you JD. My support for the President comes because I see the gathering storm against America and want so badly for this President to awaken to our awful situation and make some correct choices in dealing with these threats.

I am an American and want to see my country continue to exist and I know that very powerful enemies to freedom and the West are gathering their forces of evil with the intention of destroying this country and killing millions of our families. I would take no joy in seeing these enemies succeed in their evil desires and have no desire to say I told you so when these communists with help from theri Islamist proxies put the final phase into action.

It will be a horrible scene to behold the likes of which I do not look forward to seeing. This over-riding concern for the welfare of my country and my family gives me a desire and hope that our President and this countries leaders can awaken to this threat before it is to late. That is the motivation behind my support for President Bush. Believe me all is not well in Zion as we are facing the greatest threat to our civilization and way of life that this world has ever seen. Losing this battle is not an option but I fear unless more awaken to this it will surely become a reality. This is not a reality I would ever wish to gloat about.

[John Adams]

Mark wrote: My support for the President comes because I see the gathering storm against America and want so badly for this President to awaken to our awful situation and make some correct choices in dealing with these threats.

Fair enough. At least we're agreed on the majority of the threats (Russia/China), and we can just agree to disagree on how to best deal with those threats (I still feel Bush is either part of or just a puppet in the other threat--the NWO, which I think is allowing Russia/China to become even stronger.)

I guess I'm waiting for "another" leader to arise.

BYW - Thanks for your very reasonable response.

[79scholar]

My opinion is 100% agreed with Mark's, yet I add the following:
- We know the Latter-Day Gadiantons (LDGs) will infiltrate the US government (Helaman 6). This I'd say is a given, the question is how.
- I believe the LDGs have effective control over Hollywood
- I believe the LDGs have maintained their effective control over US news media that JP Morgan bought out (the newspapers) in the 1920s
- I believe many US politicians, and likely many in the White House are also infiltrated by these LDGs (Skull & Bones, Bohemian Grove, Straussians)
- I believe all major secret society groups are inter-related and collaborate first for total control THEN compete.
- I believe the "terrorists" are the pawns, Communist regimes are the rooks and queen, and the (UN + many global organizations / LDGs) is the king. By attacking pawns, we unwittingly take their bait.
- We know the LDGs' ultimate goal is to instill a world-wide Totalitarian (Communist) dictatorship with the anti-christ at the helm (Ether 8:25, 3 Nephi 7, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Revelations 13:11-18, and more).

[Mark]

There is so much disinformation and wild speculation involved in identifying the roots of the terrorism movement today particularly Islamic terrorism and its connection with communisms ugly underpinnings. This is an excellent article tracing that history and connecting many of the dots. It is a long read but worth the time to get some facts instead of believing in all kinds of speculation often not based on historical evidence.


http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~aphamala/pe/issue5/roots.htm

[Swmorgan77]

Check out this timeline at cooperativeresearch.org, which is a great site:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/proj ... _militancy

[creator]

I feel saddened that I have not been able to effectively communicate my concerns for this country to you JD. My support for the President comes because I see the gathering storm against America and want so badly for this President to awaken to our awful situation and make some correct choices in dealing with these threats.

Wake up! It's not going to happen.

The president is part of the awful situation. He's part of the Secret Combination, he's part of the problem. Most likely he won't change...

We must each take the responsibility upon ourselves in the defense of freedom and truth.

[Mark]

I just finished hearing a summary of Chavez speech at the UN and it all strikes me as incredulous. This same speech being given by an avowed communist is being mouthed by many Americans today both on on left and on the right. Chavez unrelentlessly called President Bush evil and said that our govt. were imperialistic invaders who want to rule the world. We were demonized as having the devil himself as our leader even though Chavez made a point of saying that the American people stood with him for peace directly contrary to what their govt. leaders stood for. Can anyone here see where this is going?

Are Chavez and Ahmadnutjob trying desperately to divide this country and in so doing fracture us to the point of internal breakdown and anarchy which will just soften us up for external butt kicking? Chavez and nutjob are the epitomy of evil in their communist/Islamic ideology yet all eyes are focused on the President being the evil conspiring gadianton of the world.

I am concerned about all the propoganda spewing forth that is designed to turn the world against America by demonizing her and her leaders thereby giving justification for necessary intervention to stop America in its "evil path".

As patriots can we be party to this public accusation mentality designed to weaken this country? By agreeing with the worlds tyrants about our President accusing him without absolute proof of every evil atrocity that occurs in this country including killing our own people at 9-11 does this not embolden the rhetoric and cause being used against us by these tyrannical nutjobs?

I am sincere in wanting to know how to deal with these threats against us. I see many in the world who want to see America fall. How do we best fight against this real threat to our land and our freedoms? Are they using all this conspiracy stuff against us as a tool to further their cause of the destruction of the west?

One other thought on this. If we think that 9-11 was just an internal job implemented by our President and his neocon cohorts then how can we justify going after the Taliban and Bin Laden in the first place? Many here have justified that military operation against Al Queda yet decry Iraq. If as Alex Jones has always maintained it was all just a set up by our government then was President Hinckley deceived in saying that he supported the Presidents mission against these supposed terrorists in Afganistan when in fact they had nothing to do with this operation against America? Who is telling the truth and who is spinning deceit and lies?

[Mark]

Here is the summary of Chavez' speech. As I said He is using American leftists like Norm Chomsky as propoganda to demonize the west and its leaders. Am I the only one who sees the danger in all this anti-American rhetoric and the need to be very careful in accusing America's President of gadianton like activities publicly without proof? This is aiding and emblazoning our enemies who want to see us dead. It will also be the means of getting a lot of our soldiers killed because of all this anti American demonization spread around the world. Remember Hanoi Jane? Can you say useful idiot? We have Ahmadnutjob calling for the apocolypse and Chavez looking for the giant boot on America's face. Why give them fuel for their fire?


By the NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...


Wednesday, Sept. 20, 2006 11:49 a.m. EDT
Hugo Chavez Calls Bush 'Devil' at U.N.



Reprint Information
Hugo Chavez Calls Bush 'Devil' at U.N.

Transcript: Hugo Chavez 'Devil' Speech at U.N.
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Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez took his verbal battle with the United States to the floor of the U.N. General Assembly on Wednesday, calling President Bush "the devil."


The impassioned speech by the leftist leader came a day after Bush and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad sparred over Tehran's disputed nuclear program but managed to avoid a personal encounter.


"The devil came here yesterday," Chavez said, referring to Bush's address on Tuesday and making the sign of the cross. "He came here talking as if he were the owner of the world."


Standing at the podium, Chavez quipped that a day after Bush's appearance: "In this very spot it smells like sulfur still."


Chavez held up a book by American leftist writer Noam Chomsky "Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance" and recommended it to everyone in the General Assembly.



Story Continues Below


The leftist leader, who has joined Iran and Cuba in opposing U.S. influence, accused Washington of "domination, exploitation and pillage of peoples of the world."


"We appeal to the people of the United States and the world to halt this threat, which is like a sword hanging over our head," he said.


Chavez drew tentative giggles at times from the audience, but also some applause when he called Bush the devil.


The main U.S. seat in the assembly hall was empty as Chavez spoke. But there was a "junior note taker" there, as is customary "when governments like that speak," the U.S. ambassador to the U.N said.


Ambassador John Bolton told The Associated Press that Chavez had the right to express his opinion, adding it was "too bad the people of Venezuela don't have free speech."


"I'm just not going to comment on this because his remarks just don't warrant a response," Bolton said. "Serious people can listen to what he had to say and if they do they will reject it."


Describing the U.N. as an "important world stage" on which leaders represent their citizens, State Department deputy spokesman Tom Casey, said such personal attacks were "disappointing."


"And I'll leave it to the Venezuelan people to determine whether President Chavez represented them and presented them in a way they would have liked to have seen," he said.


Chavez spoke on the second day of the annual ministerial meetings, which were overshadowed by an ambitious agenda of sideline talks.


The Mideast peace process also was in the spotlight, with ministers from the Quartet that drafted the stalled road map - the U.S., the U.N., the European Union and Russia - planning to meet. The Security Council also was scheduled to hold a ministerial meeting Thursday that Arab leaders hope will help revive the Mideast peace process.


Bush tried to advance his campaign for democracy in the Middle East during his address to the General Assembly on Tuesday, saying extremists were trying to justify their violence by falsely claiming the U.S. is waging war on Islam. He singled out Iran and Syria as sponsors of terrorism.


Bush also pointed to Tehran's rejection of a Security Council demand to stop enriching uranium by Aug. 31 or face the possibility of sanctions. But he addressed his remarks to the Iranian people in a clear insult to the government.


"The greatest obstacle to this future is that your rulers have chosen to deny you liberty and to use your nation's resources to fund terrorism and fuel extremism and pursue nuclear weapons," the U.S. leader said.


"Iran must abandon its nuclear weapons ambitions," he said. "Despite what the regime tells you, we have no objection to Iran's pursuit of a truly peaceful nuclear power program."


He said he hoped to see "the day when you can live in freedom, and America and Iran can be good friends and close partners in the cause of peace."


Ahmadinejad took the podium hours later, denouncing U.S. policies in Iraq and Lebanon and accusing Washington of abusing its power in the Security Council to punish others while protecting its own interests and allies.


The hard-line leader insisted that his nation's nuclear activities are "transparent, peaceful and under the watchful eye" of inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog. He also reiterated his nation's commitment to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.




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Earlier this month, Ahmadinejad proposed a debate with Bush at the General Assembly's ministerial meeting after the White House dismissed a previous TV debate proposal as a "diversion" from serious concerns over Iran's nuclear program.


But even though the two leaders spoke from the same podium, they skipped each other's addresses and managed to avoid direct contact during the ministerial meeting.


Also on Wednesday, Afghan President Hamid Karzai warned that terrorism is rebounding in his country and said efforts to build democracy there had suffered setbacks over the past year as violence increased, especially in the volatile south where NATO forces have been battling Taliban militants in some of the fiercest battles since the hard-line government was toppled in 2001.


"We have seen terrorism rebounding as terrorists have infiltrated our borders to step up their murderous campaign against our people," he told the General Assembly.


He said the situation was so bad it had contributed to a rise in polio from four cases in 2005 to 27 this year because health workers were unable to reach the region.


But he said the problem had to be fought beyond Afghanistan's borders as well as within.


"We must look beyond Afghanistan to the sources of terrorism," he said. "We must destroy terrorist sanctuaries beyond Afghanistan."


He also expressed concern about "the increased incidents of Islamophobia in the West," saying it does not "bode well for the cause of building understanding and cooperation across civilizations."


The crisis in the ravaged Sudanese region of Darfur also was on the agenda Wednesday, with the African Union's Peace and Security Council meeting to discuss breaking the deadlock over a plan to replace an AU force with U.N. peacekeepers.


The bloc decided to extend the mandate of peacekeeping forces in Darfur through the end of the year, ensuring that international troops will remain in the war-torn Sudanese province for now.


The United Nations will provide material and logistic support to the mission, though Sudan is still resisting demands that the U.N. take over the mission from the AU, said Burkina Faso President Blaise Compaore, head of the AU Peace and Security Council.








© 2006 Associated Press.

[WYp8riot]

I just finished hearing a summary of Chavez speech at the UN and it all strikes me as incredulous. This same speech being given by an avowed communist is being mouthed by many Americans today both on on left and on the right. Chavez unrelentlessly called President Bush evil and said that our govt. were imperialistic invaders who want to rule the world. We were demonized as having the devil himself as our leader even though Chavez made a point of saying that the American people stood with him for peace directly contrary to what their govt. leaders stood for. Can anyone here see where this is going?

Are Chavez and Ahmadnutjob trying desperately to divide this country and in so doing fracture us to the point of internal breakdown and anarchy which will just soften us up for external butt kicking? Chavez and nutjob are the epitomy of evil in their communist/Islamic ideology yet all eyes are focused on the President being the evil conspiring gadianton of the world.

I am concerned about all the propoganda spewing forth that is designed to turn the world against America by demonizing her and her leaders thereby giving justification for necessary intervention to stop America in its "evil path".

As patriots can we be party to this public accusation mentality designed to weaken this country? By agreeing with the worlds tyrants about our President accusing him without absolute proof of every evil atrocity that occurs in this country including killing our own people at 9-11 does this not embolden the rhetoric and cause being used against us by these tyrannical nutjobs?

I am sincere in wanting to know how to deal with these threats against us. I see many in the world who want to see America fall. How do we best fight against this real threat to our land and our freedoms? Are they using all this conspiracy stuff against us as a tool to further their cause of the destruction of the west?

One other thought on this. If we think that 9-11 was just an internal job implemented by our President and his neocon cohorts then how can we justify going after the Taliban and Bin Laden in the first place? Many here have justified that military operation against Al Queda yet decry Iraq. If as Alex Jones has always maintained it was all just a set up by our government then was President Hinckley deceived in saying that he supported the Presidents mission against these supposed terrorists in Afganistan when in fact they had nothing to do with this operation against America? Who is telling the truth and who is spinning deceit and lies?

I agree, pointing the finger of entire blame towards Bush is just another distraction. I am not a bush supporter, but also realize that to what ever level of involvement he is not the head of the LDG's and is likely just another pawn. I would suggest follow the money trail and the international Banking Cartel for the heads.

International Banking Cartel = LDG's not to be falsely or fraudulently mistaken for a coment against Jews.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I like the prophets approach personally. See the evil, understand the evil, fortify against the evil and wait. The Lord will fight our battles. We are supposed to stand a little taller and quietly wait for the moment to come. When the moment comes then we can shout in unison and the wall will fall. Until then I think that the prophets have been abundantly clear. Like Brian said earlier we use the tactics of the Savior: meekness, mildness, gentleness, long-suffering, we turn the other cheek and trust in the Lord. Fortify, it worked for the Nephites!

2Nephi 10:12-13& 16 "And I will fortify this land against all other nations. And he that fighteth against Zion shall perish saith God. Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not with me are against me, saith our God."

Good enough for me!

[jbalm]

Ultimately, Pitchfire is correct.

I enjoy the debates on this forum, and plan to continue participating. But when it comes down to the ultimate question--What do we do about it?--Pitchfire has stated the appropriate action. (I would also clarify that we need to help others to fortify against it).

I also agree with Mark to a point. We need to be careful about pointing the finger without proof (after all, we don't want to act like the feds). But, scrutiny is healthy and necessary. Without it, any hope of maintaining freedom quickly vanishes.

And, while it is never pleasant when a lunatic jumps on your bandwagon--like Hugo Chavez with the 9/11 truth movement--it does not necessarily mean you should abandon your point of view. For instance, I won't withdraw my support for the Minutemen and other border security groups just because some skinheads support them also.

Jim

[Mark]

We need to be careful about pointing the finger without proof (after all, we don't want to act like the feds). But, scrutiny is healthy and necessary. Without it, any hope of maintaining freedom quickly vanishes.

Agreed Jim. My point deals with those who have tried and convicted our leaders in their own minds and are now out spouting all kinds of totally unfounded accusations publicly like what you hear coming from Jones and his ilk when he says that any further attacks in this country will be ordered out of the White house. That is totally irresponsible and reckless and gives other terrorists out there in the world cover to commit these acts without fear of reprisals. After all, there are others in the world who, on their own fruition, want to bring down America. They don't need the support or permission of President Bush to kill us and destroy our economy. They are happy to do it completely independent of anyone elses desires or plans.

[79scholar]

Pitchfire, I don't know you, but I love you already.

lol

[lundbaek]

I get the impression there is very little understanding of where the threat of communism really comes from.

A clique of American financiers not only helped establish Communism in Russia, but has striven mightily ever since to keep it alive. Ever since 1918 this clique has been engaged in transferring money and, probably more important, technical information, to the Soviet Union. This is made abundantly clear in the three volume history "Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development" and in "The Best Enemy Money Can Buy", both by scholar Anthony Sutton of Stanford University's Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace. Using, for the most part, official State Department documents, Sutton shows conclusively that virtually everything the Soviets possess had been acquired from the West. He shows how the Soviet state's technological and manufacturing base, which was then engaged in supplying the North Vietnamese the armaments and supplies to kill and wound American soldiers, was built by US firms and mostly paid for by the US taxpayers. From their largest steel and iron plant, to automobile manufacturing equipment, to precision
ball-bearings and computers, basically the majority of the Soviet's large industrial enterprises had been built with the United States help or technical assistance.

On March 24, 1917, The New York Times, on page two, printed a telegram from Jacob Schiff describing the Russian Revolution as "what we had hoped and striven for these long years." Schiff had heavily financed Woodrow Wilson's 1912 presidential campaign, and in 1916 Schiff paid Leon Trotsky's way to the U.S. An article in "The New York Journal American" of February 3, 1949 was printed "Today it is estimated even by Jacob's grandson, John Schiff, a prominent member of New York Society, that the old man sank about $20,000,000 for the final triumph of Bolshevism in Russia. Other leading banks also contributed."

A WW2 Lend-Lease expediter George Racey Jordan, then a U.S. Army Air Force Major became aware of the transfer of, and actually saw and handled, among other things, materials and technical information that, as it turned out, were used by the Russians to build their first atomic bomb. He reported this in his book "From Major Jordan's Diaries".

Let us not forget the Tehran and Yalta conferences during WW2, which put massive land and populations under Soviet control.

The U.N. Charter was authored by the proven traitorous American Alger Hiss and one of Stalin’s top men, V.M. Molotov. Hiss gave the Soviets three votes in the General Assembly, compared to one for the U.S. and agreed further that a Soviet national would always be in charge of U.N. military activities.

On April 23, 1962, Dr. Bella Dodd told W. Cleon Skousen that while she was working as a member of the national committee of the Communist Party, she learned from William Z. Foster, head of the American Communist Party, that if they couldn’t make a decision on any particular problem they should go to the Waldorf Astoria for instructions. Their courier always took these inquiries to Arthur J. Goldsmith. However, she did not know whether he was one of the three or merely a go between who delivered the message to the three wealthy contacts and then later brought back the answer.

Americans supported the Communist forces of Mao Tse-tung in their war against Chiang Kai-shek and actively worked behind the scenes to bring about the Communization of China.

Americans helped Castro to power in Cuba and, later betrayed the anti-Castro invasion force at the Bay of Pigs.

In Korea and Vietnam, Americans denied our military forces the option of victory.

In the early '50's, Norman Dodd, director of research for the Reece Committee, discovered and revealed the intention of the Ford Foundation to "use our grant-making power to alter life in the United States so that we can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union."

Americans, including members of Congress, supported the Sandinista Communists in the takeover of Nicaragua.

Americans gave the Panama Canal to a pro-Soviet dictatorship.

So just who has been behind this communist threat? Besides Satan, that is ?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Pretty much everyone, either through active support or apathy. The key here is what to do about it. I believe, as others here, that the government of the U.S. (including the large financial institutions and corporations that run it) is full up with those who actively support it (the whore) knowingly or not.

Sidenote-The Whore is really a good name for it as it promises all things to all, for a price. Make no mistake, the price is freedom!

So what? What do we do? The only refuge left is in the home. Personal spirituality and obedience seem our only defence. We will as a church awake and humble ourselves to the dust and repent, and then we will quickly (with God before us) cleanse the outward vessel. Until then I fear that our successes will be largely confined to our personal spheres of influence as we attempt to cleanse the inward vessel. I pray that I am wrong. Am I?

[lundbaek]

I don't think we shoould just crawl into our shells and focus only on ourselves. There are others out there who might heed the warnings we have to offer, and I t hink we should seek them out and try to clue them in, or help them see the light, however you want to put it. For example, when people question me why I support the Constitution Party and would "throw away" my vote, I jump on the opportunity to explain that I will only support a party or candidate who espouses the principles outlined in the Declaration of Independence and codified in the Constitution. Most of these discussion are with LDSs, so I go on to tell them how I feel about what the D&C tells us about the Constitution, and when appropriate, what prophets, apostles and other Church leaders have said with regard to the Constitution and our freedoms. And this is no easier that trying to interest a total stranger in the Church. It sometimes takes years, as it did in my case.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

That is why I said that I fear that our successes will be limited to our spheres of influence, not that we should give up. The prophecies are abundantly clear as to whether or not the Gentiles will conquer. That does not negate our duty to God and our fellow man, however. Nor does it mean that we wont win friends and influence people.

I am pessimistic that President Bush will awake and we will rally the troops and turn out the reds and return to our roots, aren't you?

Does anyone see that happening?

That is not to say that I have or ever will give up. To fortify is not to give up nor retreat. I however am no longer optimistic enough to expect any major advances. On the contrary I am afraid of what base there is erroding further! Sort of fortification to cut losses.

[lundbaek]

No, I do not see that happening. Whaat I do see happening is:

Continued immigration from Mexico and integration of the Mexican culture into the American culture,

Creation of the United States of North America, the political, economic and military merging of Canada, the USA and Mexico into a socialist North American nation encompassing the three currently sovereign nations. The blueprint was laid out in a 2005 report “Building a North American Community”, published by the Council on Foreign Relations. The plan is contained in a “Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America”.

Continued exporting of American jobs to other countries,

Increased taxation to support welfare and foreign aid,

Increased involvement of American military forces in foreign conflicts, especially on the pretense of combating terrorism, and without constitutionally required declarations of war by Congress,

Further terrorist actions world wide,

Lowering of the standard of living of Americans'

Continued giving of militarily sensitive technology to China and Russia,

Continued devaluation of the US dollar caused by dilution by money created for welfare and foreign aid.

A dictatorship increases its power until it dominates the whole earth for 3 ½ years or 42 months. (Rev. 13:5). Then it turns on the saints (Rev. 13:7) and is wiped out.

The cleansing of America and wiping out of the first dictatorship is described in 3 Nephi 16: 10, 12; 20: 14 - 20 and by Joseph Smith in Teachings, p. 17 of the 1971 edition.

After that I think the "Remnant" will begin to work to restore our country.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I agree with many of your points. I think that we may fail to recognize the extent to which some have already occured. I disagree with the complete loss of U.S. sovereignty. Though I know that the U.S. will be broken up, not a potshard left, I think that anarchy and revolution will prevail. City against city, state against state, etc...and when the reds try to land here (in our weakened state) we will step in and turn them out. (Whether from Zion or Utah etc...I do not know.)

I am not against being wrong in the least, if I am I hope that you will set me straight.

I see things happening along a curve that is accelerating and think that the timeline is rapidly approaching the point where we arise and shine (after the humbling spoken of by Heber C. Kimball), I pray that it is so.

"Our sons and daughters must live pure lives to prepare for what is coming.

After a while the gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possesion of the saints, and the results will be financial bondage.

Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do...."Heber C. Kimball, Des News, Pg.3, May 23, 1931.

"But the judgments will begin at the house of God. We have to pass through some of these things, but it will only be a very little compared with the terrible destruction...That will overtake the world." JT JD Vol.21 p100, Apr. 13, 1879

I think that we have just passed through the "Spirit of Speculation" phase and are in the very beginnings of financial bondage. Am I wrong?

[lundbaek]

Pitchfire, I agree, and realize didn't carry my ideas far enough in time. Over on the "Coming Attractions" thread of the "Last Days Events..." field I posted my transcription of a talk given by W. Cleon Skousen in late 1998, plus the notes to his talk which he sent to me later. I think I got it all right but may have missed a couple of parts that were irrelevant to me at the time.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I read that on the sites homepage, thanks. I gather from further thought that the Utah boys will turn out the invading army from there and not Zion since none dare go up against Zion, this rout may well prove to establish that reputation in conjunction with the sea disallowing travel and the pillars of fire and smoke and aurora etc...

Do you think that the dictatorship (that arises from the sea) will be wiped out by the revolution and anarchy that will see the wealthy British howling in the dust, capital vs. labor, neighbor against neighbor, etc...

It is clear to me that these prophecies pertain to Britain as well as our nation and perhaps many more. I could see these events leading to the empty halls of our government and basically lead to the constitution hanging by a thread and being preserved by us.

What are your thoughts on the Beast falling by the sword as in rev.?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

To put it a little plainer (I hope), I doubt that the invading force represents the first beast since we (the Mountain boys) will be called upon to step in and save the day. This seems to contradict the Beast making war with the saints, since the saints will have to be called up to make war upon the invading force.

I speculate (cringe) that the beast will be our figurative task master and make war with the saints in regards to our ability to function and operate under principles of righteousness, as well as the financial bondage earlier referenced by myself as well as other ill treatment. That it will then be routed perhaps elsewhere by the sword and here by the revolution when we no longer will bear the inequalities of life (as a nation) and anarchy prevails. Then the revolution (anarchy) rages and weakens the nation to the point that an invading force sees an opportunity and comes only to be turned back by ourselves.

Can anyone shed more light on my understanding of this?

[Mark]

When the invading forces do reach our shores Pitchfire I fear that to many of the "mountain boys" will be to distracted chasing all kinds of red herrings and conspiracy theories to effectively fight the enemy that will surround us. They will be much to occupied in calling for the end of America's "imperialistic empire" to notice that many of America's sworn enemies from all around the globe are all to willing to oblige.


http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatc ... alysis.htm
America's Enemies at the U.N.
by J. R. Nyquist

Some of America’s enemies are openly hostile, like Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez who recently called President Bush the Devil and predicted the fall of the United States. Some of America’s enemies pretend friendship, like Russian President Vladimir Putin and his KGB entourage. Some enemies are domestic enemies who hope for a revolution that will bring their favored ideology to power. Some are motivated by envy of the rich. Others are motivated by religious fanaticism. And now these enemies appear to be gaining strength, emboldened by the expectation of a nuclear terrorist attack against Washington and New York.

The American people don’t pay much attention to their country’s enemies. It may be, of course, that Americans don’t want to survive as a country or as individuals. It should be admitted that the success of those who hate America is due to American decadence. In addition, there may be a contradiction between national survival and liberty. But this contradiction has never led to the suppression of the country’s instinct for national survival until now. This instinct has evaporated in recent decades, replaced with stylish attitudes that borrow from the grab bag of old communist propaganda, newfangled political correctness and a false sense of personal invulnerability.

Some Americans say that America deserves to be hated. I’ve got emails from American readers who want to see America defeated. Many agree with Hugo Chavez that George W. Bush is the Devil, that U.S. foreign policy is evil. And why shouldn’t they express their views? Anti-Americanism is now the mother’s milk of the American educational system. Many schools in the United States teach that capitalism is exploitive and American foreign policy is imperialistic. Patriotism isn’t taught in American schools. This needs to be understood. The sins of America’s past are emphasized while the country’s virtues are eclipsed. The achievements of capitalism are denied by environmentalists, socialists and anarchists whose voices have poisoned the well of higher education to the bargain. The older generation has been asleep at the switch, not looking too closely at what their children have been taught. And now the damage is far advanced, and the country’s bureaucracies are packed and crowded with people who haven’t a clue. Oddly, the United States is undermined by a national psychology that tolerates sedition and treason as if these were legitimate forms of dissent.

And then there are those who prefer foreign dictators to their own elected leaders.

Imagine Chavez coming to New York, speaking at the United Nations then driving to a rally of American supporters. Imagine Chavez coming to this country, calling the American president “the Devil,” predicting the country’s fall, rallying the “poor nations” to his war banner, cheering a Jihad against Washington by using Arab words, openly standing with the terrorists before the world. Does America notice its enemy to the south? A minority will notice, but the country itself pays little heed. When bin Laden declared war on America hardly anyone noticed. When Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed the U.S. for secretly fueling Chechen terrorism after the Beslan tragedy, hardly anyone noticed.

My admonition, of course, is to consider the personal consequences of America’s destruction even if you are unable to recognize the propaganda lies of the old Communist Bloc in the new, more stylish attire. Americans will die if America is destroyed. Europe cannot maintain its comfortable existence without American power, but will suffer an equally horrible fate once Washington D.C. has been destroyed. Without the world market, without the continuation of capitalism, billions of people will die in the Third World of famine and pestilence. Without America power the aggressive dictators – like Chavez and his friends in Beijing and Moscow – will not be restrained. They will attack their neighbors, and their offensive will rival that of the Axis powers in the Second World War. This fact should be obvious to everyone, but ignorance has taken hold of the nations. Pride and envy, vanity and stupidity march together toward an unprecedented decade of destruction.

To see a world war blossom, as if from a small bud, one needs to watch the language of the players – soon to be combatants. Only then can we grasp the shifting balance of forces. The words of President Chavez represent the emerging anti-Imperialist coalition that is gaining strength day to day; what used to be called the Communist Bloc now pretends to speak for the entire Third World (including one billion Muslims). In opposition to this bloc, President Bush talks of democracy, peace and freedom. But he is accused of spreading dictatorship, war and oppression. Speaking before the United Nations on Sept. 19, President Bush recalled the events of 9/11/01. “On that terrible day,” he said, “extremists killed nearly 3,000 innocent people, including citizens of dozens of nations represented right here in this chamber. Since then, the enemies of humanity have continued their campaign of murder.”

On the other side, President Chavez has already suggested that 9/11 was planned and executed by President Bush himself. “The hypothesis that is gaining strength,” said Chavez in a recent speech, “which was said on television last night, and which could soon blow up, was that it was the same U.S. imperial power that planned and carried out this terrible terrorist attack [9/11], or act, against its own people and against citizens all over the world.”

Imagine a hatred that is white hot. Such hatred will say anything, calling good evil and evil good. While President Bush speaks of a war between “extremists who use terror” and “moderate people who work for peace,” President Chavez holds up a copy of the egregious Noam Chomsky as he rallies the oppressed masses of the “southern countries” against American imperialism. “I think I have some inkling what the people’s of the south, the oppressed people think,” Chavez declared. “They would say, ‘Yankee imperialist, go home.’ I think that is what those people would say if they were given the microphone and if they could speak with one voice to the American imperialists.”

The very phrase, “America imperialist,” is a communist expression. And what does imperialism consist of? It signifies nothing more than the spread of the free market, the advancement of economic opportunity, and the elimination of dictatorship. That is what Chavez hates. That is what he fights against. According to Chavez, “The United States empire is on its way down and it will be finished in the near future, inshallah [Allah willing].”

Whichever side you are on, the undeniable fact of two sides, of two warring camps, is there for all to see. A world war has been growing out of the events of 9/11. President Bush praises the leaders of the Middle East for endorsing democratic reforms. He praises the heroic Iraqis for building democracy. Chavez makes the communist case, as it has always been made: “They say they want to impose a democratic model. But that’s their democratic model. It’s the false democracy of elites…. What type of democracy do you impose with marines and bombs?”

Chavez says to the Third World: “And you, my brother – he [Bush] looks at your color, and he says, oh, there’s an extremist. Evo Morales, the worthy president of Bolivia, looks like an extremist to him. The imperialists see extremists everywhere. It’s not that we are extremists. It’s that the world is waking up. It’s waking up all over. And people are standing up. I have a feeling, dear world dictator, that you are going to live the rest of your days as a nightmare because the rest of us are standing up, all those who are rising up against American imperialism, who are shouting for equality, for respect, for the sovereignty of nations.”

The color of Morales is not the color of his skin, however. It is the color red. It is militant communism that now unites with militant Islam. Extremists and terrorists flock to the new banner. Meanwhile, the American people don’t seem to notice. They cannot recognize the old communist lies as they percolate through the nation’s school system and the world.

© 2006 Jeffrey R. Nyquist

[79scholar]

The one thing I do know is that the UN/Communists/secret societies have one of their goals as ... to bring America to its knees, and they do this in many ways including:
- Hollywood / weakening of morals, families, and communities
- the Socializing of America, first via the Democrats, then Republicans
- Mislead us into foreign wars that are insignificant (take their decoy)
- Infiltrate the White House via CFR member advisors
- Stir up people against our own leaders (including infiltrated ones) to cause distrust and confusion in the ranks


Scale of evil:
Lawyers < Corrupt politicians < Hollywood < CFR members < Communists/Socialists < Federal Reserve/UN leaders < direct aids to anti-christ < Satan