LDS Freedom Forum

Jesus was not blinded when religious leaders like Pharisees pretend their evil behavior was good...

"And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup & the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness."
Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? But rather give alms of such things as ye have; & , behold, all things are clean unto you. But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint & rue & all manner of herbs, & pass over judgment & the love of God: these ought ye to have done, & not to leave the other undone."

Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, & greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, & the men that walk over them are not aware of them."
Woe unto you... for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, & ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers." -Luke 11

Deut 14:28, 29 is the most specific scripture about the spending of tithes.
Anyone know why it's not in LDS bible indexes & dictionaries?
It states that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to the poor.
On donation slips there are separate categories for the poor & for tithing.
I also wonder about the scripture interpretation transition from "increase" to "income."
IE: 2 men work at the same job, & receive the same income.
1 man lives at home with his mom & dad & does not have any bills, all his income, is "increase."
The 2nd man is the sole provider of a family of 9 & has many bills - mortgage, power, gas, groceries, etc... If both paid the same tithing, it would be unfair & a "grievous burden" for the 2nd man.
This is why scriptures state "increase" - NOT income.

Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees, who worshiped worldliness more than Godliness.
In media, I see something similar today.

Wow!

Yes, it's interesting to see similarities.

There is a reason for the 1st of the 10 commandments being:
"Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me."

We are not the "Church of Profits of Latter Day Saints."
We are the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

And Jesus knew that only love will never fail. All else will fail. -1 Cor 13

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, & with all thy soul, & with all thy mind. This is the 1st & great commandment. And the 2nd is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt 22:37-40

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me...
Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me." -Matt 25:40,45

Thinker wrote:Jesus was not blinded when religious leaders like Pharisees pretend their evil behavior was good...

"And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup & the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness."
Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? But rather give alms of such things as ye have; & , behold, all things are clean unto you. But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint & rue & all manner of herbs, & pass over judgment & the love of God: these ought ye to have done, & not to leave the other undone."

Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, & greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, & the men that walk over them are not aware of them."
Woe unto you... for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, & ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers." -Luke 11

Deut 14:28, 29 is the most specific scripture about the spending of tithes.
Anyone know why it's not in LDS bible indexes & dictionaries?
It states that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to the poor.
On donation slips there are separate categories for the poor & for tithing.
I also wonder about the scripture interpretation transition from "increase" to "income."
IE: 2 men work at the same job, & receive the same income.
1 man lives at home with his mom & dad & does not have any bills, all his income, is "increase."
The 2nd man is the sole provider of a family of 9 & has many bills - mortgage, power, gas, groceries, etc... If both paid the same tithing, it would be unfair & a "grievous burden" for the 2nd man.
This is why scriptures state "increase" - NOT income.

Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees, who worshiped worldliness more than Godliness.
In media, I see something similar today.

Is that you Harmston? :ymdevil: You must have a lot more time on your hands now that all your followers are heading for the exits.. Good grief man who do you think you are kidding here? It is obvious you are on a crusade to paint the church and its leadership in a negative light any chance you can. The only posts you ever make here are done to criticize the church or the leadership in one way or another. Lets cut through the facade and speak plainly. Sheep meet your neighborhood wolf. )

Spot on Mark. Maybe we can get Brian to change Thinker's name to Wolf. I'll start a petition!

patriotsaint wrote:Spot on Mark. Maybe we can get Brian to change Thinker's name to Wolf. I'll start a petition!

I have been part of this rodeo before patriot. When members begin speaking ill of the Lords annointed they immediately begin to criticize anything and everything they can about the church and its operations. Some of my family made this critical mistake and it has had a long term tragic effects on them and their families. This is exactly how the True and Living church of apostates out of Manti began. The more things change the more they stay the same. :ymsigh:


PS I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk and need to put into practice that principle of concern and forgiveness more for those who have been led astray by the adversaries cunning strategies. I love all my Forum buddies. (Even you Aussie) :ymhug:

The Pharisees were more of a political party than the sole religious authority. Looking at a brief summary of the history they seem fairly similar to the modern Democratic Party whereas the Sadducees seem more like the Republican Party. Of course they both had religious leadership positions because it was a fairly homogeneous religious culture and the government leadership was largely tied to the religious leadership.

As for the modern Church and our modern highly corrupted government, thank goodness they are separate. I'm still disturbed by a meeting with a Stake President who was also a Utah State Senator who bragged to me in an interview that he was trying to push through a bill to "go after people like you", based on something I had done a number of years before then. Perhaps with natural weaknesses of men it is a good thing that religious and political organizations are separate, and frankly it's scary when those involved with modern corrupt politics are also in Church leadership positions, especially in a role that involves judgment and hearing confessions. Needless to say I was glad to have moved soon after that.

Mark wrote:

patriotsaint wrote:Spot on Mark. Maybe we can get Brian to change Thinker's name to Wolf. I'll start a petition!

I have been part of this rodeo before patriot. When members begin speaking ill of the Lords annointed they immediately begin to criticize anything and everything they can about the church and its operations. Some of my family made this critical mistake and it has had a long term tragic effects on them and their families. This is exactly how the True and Living church of apostates out of Manti began. The more things change the more they stay the same. :ymsigh:


PS I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk and need to put into practice that principle of concern and forgiveness more for those who have been led astray by the adversaries cunning strategies. I love all my Forum buddies. (Even you Aussie) :ymhug:

I may be wrong about this, but I think the "Lord's anointed" refers literally to those anointed as prophets. I certainly believe in being respectful and even deferential (in the giving a benefit of the doubt sense) to local leaders, but my experience with them has been worlds apart from my limited experience with the 15 prophets that lead the Church.

I don't have any other way to explain certain experiences, like the one above and many others. On my mission I was the financial secretary for two different mission presidents. The first I didn't get to know well and I was called just before he left, but he had horrible policies that starved the missionaries (including a no-dinner until returning home at 9:30 rule and an allowance for food and transportation that was so far from adequate that missionaries survived by accepting food from usually impoverished members or getting more money from home) while leaving the budget mostly unused.

The second mission president was just abrasive and ungrateful. My earliest memory of him was being shaken awake by a shouting man after working through most of the night to get monthly funds distributed to the zone leaders. I was still being trained by the previous secretary and had been told that working into the night and sleeping in the following day was the accepted approach to handle the huge time constraints placed on the financial secretary by the large amount of paperwork required, on top of the proselyting time requirements that left too little time for all of the paper work, especially during that busy time of month with many reports and a large number of bank transactions to prepare.

I stuck with it, and things actually got worse as the Church pulled one of the tools we had been using to do electronic transactions instead of going to the bank with usually around 100 manually filled out transaction forms. On top of that for a few months I was the only one in the offices with a drivers license, ie the APs and the other secretary did not have licenses and so were not allowed to drive the mission van. This meant that I was stuck shuttling missionaries to and from the bus station and airport, and also to doctor's appointments and all sorts of little errands. During this time I was still under intense pressure from the APs and President to keep up my proselyting efforts, especially since my companion was an AP. I was constantly lectured by people who had little to do compared to the workload I had, and in some cases whose job I was doing because they could not (ie with the drivers license issue for example).

I handled the problem by working into the night when needed because there were so few hours during the day to get all the paperwork done. However, I never slept in for even a minute after that first bad experience with it. With very little sleep and a poor and inconsistent diet I gained 60 pounds over the six months I was there. I started having problems with staying awake, even while driving though thankfully never had an accident because of that (surely a miracle, as I fell asleep at stop lights frequently, and fortunately the other secretary was generally along to help me stay awake). By the time I left the offices I was starting to have other health problems.

In my first area out I was again a junior companion and to a senior companion to was what was referred as a "pharisee" in that he drove really hard, was extremely strict about the rules, and unfortunately was not only unkind to junior companions but to investigators as well (much like my first companion, before going into the offices). Both of these guys managed to get investigators, especially female investigators, to feel so bad that they left the room crying.

Anyway, I started getting weird health problems like feeling really anxious and getting tunnel vision. I reported this to the President through my companion (who was the district leader) and was assigned to a different companion who was known as being more compassionate. I saw the mission doctor and he diagnosed me with an anxiety disorder and recommended exercise and a better diet, so I got special permission to set aside time a few mornings a week for exercise, and I got a little extra money to buy some fresh foods (which I had not really seen over the previous 10 months, other than a desperate attempt to eat something fresh that involved downing a raw onion, that being the only sort of thing that was generally available and affordable). This didn't produce results and after meals I started having worse problems, including a couple of instances of starting to black out... like a tunnel vision and dizziness requiring me to sit down. After an incident in a supermarket where I was suddenly unable to walk straight and fell to the floor, I saw the mission doctor again and he recommended prozac, insisting it was all a psychological issue.

I came from a family that was wary of this sort of drug so I initially refused, preferring to pursue a more natural treatment involving an improvement of health with more exercise and a better diet. Unfortunately, those things were not available (or allowed) as needed while on a mission, so I was told this was not acceptable. I had a visit with the Area Authority Seventy who explained this to me and recommended that I take the prozac as it was the only way to continue on my mission, and that was the most important thing at this time in my life. He really pushed hard to convince me, and I accepted it.

I started taking prozac, knowing that it would take a couple of weeks to take effect. During this time I was back in the offices helping out but not in any official capacity. I was on a sort of "sick leave". I really didn't feel right about taking the prozac and was concerned it would cause more harm than good, and the thing about blacking out really disturbed me because I didn't see how that would be caused by a psychological anxiety disorder. After a few days of taking the prozac and doing a lot of scripture study and prayer, I decided to stop and go home to get better instead. This was met with pretty severe judgment and encouraging me to do otherwise by the mission President and other elders. Even the grounds keeper, who was a member I knew well from working with him before, thought I should stay.

The trip home was all the more enjoyable because it was just before general conference and I had the pleasure of traveling with the Area President (Seventy) who had pushed so hard for me to choose the Prozac route.

After arriving home I visited our family doctor and he immediately recommended a glucose tolerance test. The test result was that I had a problem with low blood sugar, and he theorized that with the lifestyle and diet I was under on my mission that the blackouts were actually severely low blood sugar. Prozac actually has a destabilizing effect on blood sugar, so that could have made the problem worse.

In other words, had I followed the counsel of the Mission President and Area President, it could have killed me. My patriarchal blessing says that my life would be threatened while I was on my mission, and I always thought it was the gang-related stuff that one of the sick elders in the office had been involved in before his mission. This result in me being followed for a couple of months while I went about the business of the mission, and they actually took this elder and beat him up and questioned him about this. He told me this in confidence as we were good friends from his time there, so I don't think the President or others in the mission even knew it was going on, and his story for getting beaten up was that it was the angry husband of a woman he had slept with (which unfortunately he really did do, and was promptly sent home for it... but no one knew, even me often staying up late, that he was sneaking out at night for this until he blamed his injuries on the husband instead of the gang). Anyway, perhaps my life was in danger there, but I don't think so. My life was probably in more danger from my hypoglycemic condition.

So how could this happen? How could the Area President (a Seventy) and the Mission President have been so wrong and it was up to me as a young elder who had been portrayed as psychologically inadequate, and a few years before my mission morally inadequate as well (though in relatively minor ways). I had some self-confidence as I had finished by BS at BYU before my mission (when I was about 19, and I left on my mission at 20), but most of this was worn to nothing in the mission field. Frankly, I'm not sure how I was able to make and stick to that decision. I can only surmise that it was God literally guiding me through it... but that is my feeling on it now and I hand't really though this through until recently.

Why would God inspire me to go against the counsel of those in high Church leadership positions over me? Why would this literally be a life-threatening circumstance predicted much earlier in my patriarchal blessing? Why was I always in a number 2 position under the AP in the MTC, the zone leader in my first area, a few different APs while in the offices, a district leader and then a zone leader before going home? I was never in a position of leadership, just always under close supervision (and judgment) of leadership... and I knew my own weaknesses and that I was far from worthy and able to hold such positions... but also saw the constant mistakes and frequent pride of these people.

I still don't know the answers to these questions or how this first into the bigger picture, but it leaves me with a distrust of Church leaders, up to the level of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve who are literally anointed as prophets seers and revelators, and who counsel and teachings seem to be far more consistent and guided by inspiration.

jonesde wrote:

Mark wrote:

patriotsaint wrote:Spot on Mark. Maybe we can get Brian to change Thinker's name to Wolf. I'll start a petition!

I have been part of this rodeo before patriot. When members begin speaking ill of the Lords annointed they immediately begin to criticize anything and everything they can about the church and its operations. Some of my family made this critical mistake and it has had a long term tragic effects on them and their families. This is exactly how the True and Living church of apostates out of Manti began. The more things change the more they stay the same. :ymsigh:


PS I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk and need to put into practice that principle of concern and forgiveness more for those who have been led astray by the adversaries cunning strategies. I love all my Forum buddies. (Even you Aussie) :ymhug:

I may be wrong about this, but I think the "Lord's anointed" refers literally to those anointed as prophets. I certainly believe in being respectful and even deferential (in the giving a benefit of the doubt sense) to local leaders, but my experience with them has been worlds apart from my limited experience with the 15 prophets that lead the Church.

I don't have any other way to explain certain experiences, like the one above and many others. On my mission I was the financial secretary for two different mission presidents. The first I didn't get to know well and I was called just before he left, but he had horrible policies that starved the missionaries (including a no-dinner until returning home at 9:30 rule and an allowance for food and transportation that was so far from adequate that missionaries survived by accepting food from usually impoverished members or getting more money from home) while leaving the budget mostly unused.

The second mission president was just abrasive and ungrateful. My earliest memory of him was being shaken awake by a shouting man after working through most of the night to get monthly funds distributed to the zone leaders. I was still being trained by the previous secretary and had been told that working into the night and sleeping in the following day was the accepted approach to handle the huge time constraints placed on the financial secretary by the large amount of paperwork required, on top of the proselyting time requirements that left too little time for all of the paper work, especially during that busy time of month with many reports and a large number of bank transactions to prepare.

I stuck with it, and things actually got worse as the Church pulled one of the tools we had been using to do electronic transactions instead of going to the bank with usually around 100 manually filled out transaction forms. On top of that for a few months I was the only one in the offices with a drivers license, ie the APs and the other secretary did not have licenses and so were not allowed to drive the mission van. This meant that I was stuck shuttling missionaries to and from the bus station and airport, and also to doctor's appointments and all sorts of little errands. During this time I was still under intense pressure from the APs and President to keep up my proselyting efforts, especially since my companion was an AP. I was constantly lectured by people who had little to do compared to the workload I had, and in some cases whose job I was doing because they could not (ie with the drivers license issue for example).

I handled the problem by working into the night when needed because there were so few hours during the day to get all the paperwork done. However, I never slept in for even a minute after that first bad experience with it. With very little sleep and a poor and inconsistent diet I gained 60 pounds over the six months I was there. I started having problems with staying awake, even while driving though thankfully never had an accident because of that (surely a miracle, as I fell asleep at stop lights frequently, and fortunately the other secretary was generally along to help me stay awake). By the time I left the offices I was starting to have other health problems.

In my first area out I was again a junior companion and to a senior companion to was what was referred as a "pharisee" in that he drove really hard, was extremely strict about the rules, and unfortunately was not only unkind to junior companions but to investigators as well (much like my first companion, before going into the offices). Both of these guys managed to get investigators, especially female investigators, to feel so bad that they left the room crying.

Anyway, I started getting weird health problems like feeling really anxious and getting tunnel vision. I reported this to the President through my companion (who was the district leader) and was assigned to a different companion who was known as being more compassionate. I saw the mission doctor and he diagnosed me with an anxiety disorder and recommended exercise and a better diet, so I got special permission to set aside time a few mornings a week for exercise, and I got a little extra money to buy some fresh foods (which I had not really seen over the previous 10 months, other than a desperate attempt to eat something fresh that involved downing a raw onion, that being the only sort of thing that was generally available and affordable). This didn't produce results and after meals I started having worse problems, including a couple of instances of starting to black out... like a tunnel vision and dizziness requiring me to sit down. After an incident in a supermarket where I was suddenly unable to walk straight and fell to the floor, I saw the mission doctor again and he recommended prozac, insisting it was all a psychological issue.

I came from a family that was wary of this sort of drug so I initially refused, preferring to pursue a more natural treatment involving an improvement of health with more exercise and a better diet. Unfortunately, those things were not available (or allowed) as needed while on a mission, so I was told this was not acceptable. I had a visit with the Area Authority Seventy who explained this to me and recommended that I take the prozac as it was the only way to continue on my mission, and that was the most important thing at this time in my life. He really pushed hard to convince me, and I accepted it.

I started taking prozac, knowing that it would take a couple of weeks to take effect. During this time I was back in the offices helping out but not in any official capacity. I was on a sort of "sick leave". I really didn't feel right about taking the prozac and was concerned it would cause more harm than good, and the thing about blacking out really disturbed me because I didn't see how that would be caused by a psychological anxiety disorder. After a few days of taking the prozac and doing a lot of scripture study and prayer, I decided to stop and go home to get better instead. This was met with pretty severe judgment and encouraging me to do otherwise by the mission President and other elders. Even the grounds keeper, who was a member I knew well from working with him before, thought I should stay.

The trip home was all the more enjoyable because it was just before general conference and I had the pleasure of traveling with the Area President (Seventy) who had pushed so hard for me to choose the Prozac route.

After arriving home I visited our family doctor and he immediately recommended a glucose tolerance test. The test result was that I had a problem with low blood sugar, and he theorized that with the lifestyle and diet I was under on my mission that the blackouts were actually severely low blood sugar. Prozac actually has a destabilizing effect on blood sugar, so that could have made the problem worse.

In other words, had I followed the counsel of the Mission President and Area President, it could have killed me. My patriarchal blessing says that my life would be threatened while I was on my mission, and I always thought it was the gang-related stuff that one of the sick elders in the office had been involved in before his mission. This result in me being followed for a couple of months while I went about the business of the mission, and they actually took this elder and beat him up and questioned him about this. He told me this in confidence as we were good friends from his time there, so I don't think the President or others in the mission even knew it was going on, and his story for getting beaten up was that it was the angry husband of a woman he had slept with (which unfortunately he really did do, and was promptly sent home for it... but no one knew, even me often staying up late, that he was sneaking out at night for this until he blamed his injuries on the husband instead of the gang). Anyway, perhaps my life was in danger there, but I don't think so. My life was probably in more danger from my hypoglycemic condition.

So how could this happen? How could the Area President (a Seventy) and the Mission President have been so wrong and it was up to me as a young elder who had been portrayed as psychologically inadequate, and a few years before my mission morally inadequate as well (though in relatively minor ways). I had some self-confidence as I had finished by BS at BYU before my mission (when I was about 19, and I left on my mission at 20), but most of this was worn to nothing in the mission field. Frankly, I'm not sure how I was able to make and stick to that decision. I can only surmise that it was God literally guiding me through it... but that is my feeling on it now and I hand't really though this through until recently.

Why would God inspire me to go against the counsel of those in high Church leadership positions over me? Why would this literally be a life-threatening circumstance predicted much earlier in my patriarchal blessing? Why was I always in a number 2 position under the AP in the MTC, the zone leader in my first area, a few different APs while in the offices, a district leader and then a zone leader before going home? I was never in a position of leadership, just always under close supervision (and judgment) of leadership... and I knew my own weaknesses and that I was far from worthy and able to hold such positions... but also saw the constant mistakes and frequent pride of these people.

I still don't know the answers to these questions or how this first into the bigger picture, but it leaves me with a distrust of Church leaders, up to the level of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve who are literally anointed as prophets seers and revelators, and who counsel and teachings seem to be far more consistent and guided by inspiration.

So as to be clear here it is the united voice of the Lords 15 Prophets that I am referring to in my posts Jonesde. If there have been major decisions made concerning the sacred tithes and offerings of the church or other significant sources of revenue derived from church investments that are used to construct buildings like the conference center or the funding of major projects like the center creek project these 15 Brethren have been fully informed and have played a major role in the implementation of these projects. I trust their abilities to do that which is right for the church and its members. I truly believe them to be Prophets, Seers, and Revelators and inspired servants of the Lord. I will defend their honesty and integrity whenever they are attacked in any setting.

jonesde wrote:

Mark wrote:

patriotsaint wrote:Spot on Mark. Maybe we can get Brian to change Thinker's name to Wolf. I'll start a petition!

I have been part of this rodeo before patriot. When members begin speaking ill of the Lords annointed they immediately begin to criticize anything and everything they can about the church and its operations. Some of my family made this critical mistake and it has had a long term tragic effects on them and their families. This is exactly how the True and Living church of apostates out of Manti began. The more things change the more they stay the same. :ymsigh:


PS I just listened to Elder Uchtdorf's talk and need to put into practice that principle of concern and forgiveness more for those who have been led astray by the adversaries cunning strategies. I love all my Forum buddies. (Even you Aussie) :ymhug:

I may be wrong about this, but I think the "Lord's anointed" refers literally to those anointed as prophets. I certainly believe in being respectful and even deferential (in the giving a benefit of the doubt sense) to local leaders, but my experience with them has been worlds apart from my limited experience with the 15 prophets that lead the Church.

I don't have any other way to explain certain experiences, like the one above and many others. On my mission ...

...

In other words, had I followed the counsel of the Mission President and Area President, it could have killed me. My patriarchal blessing says that my life would be threatened while I was on my mission, and I always thought it was the gang-related stuff that one of the sick elders in the office had been involved in before his mission. This result in me being followed for a couple of months while I went about the business of the mission, and they actually took this elder and beat him up and questioned him about this. He told me this in confidence as we were good friends from his time there, so I don't think the President or others in the mission even knew it was going on, and his story for getting beaten up was that it was the angry husband of a woman he had slept with (which unfortunately he really did do, and was promptly sent home for it... but no one knew, even me often staying up late, that he was sneaking out at night for this until he blamed his injuries on the husband instead of the gang). Anyway, perhaps my life was in danger there, but I don't think so. My life was probably in more danger from my hypoglycemic condition.

So how could this happen? How could the Area President (a Seventy) and the Mission President have been so wrong and it was up to me as a young elder who had been portrayed as psychologically inadequate, and a few years before my mission morally inadequate as well (though in relatively minor ways). I had some self-confidence as I had finished by BS at BYU before my mission (when I was about 19, and I left on my mission at 20), but most of this was worn to nothing in the mission field. Frankly, I'm not sure how I was able to make and stick to that decision. I can only surmise that it was God literally guiding me through it... but that is my feeling on it now and I hand't really though this through until recently.

Why would God inspire me to go against the counsel of those in high Church leadership positions over me? Why would this literally be a life-threatening circumstance predicted much earlier in my patriarchal blessing? Why was I always in a number 2 position under the AP in the MTC, the zone leader in my first area, a few different APs while in the offices, a district leader and then a zone leader before going home? I was never in a position of leadership, just always under close supervision (and judgment) of leadership... and I knew my own weaknesses and that I was far from worthy and able to hold such positions... but also saw the constant mistakes and frequent pride of these people.

I still don't know the answers to these questions or how this first into the bigger picture, but it leaves me with a distrust of Church leaders, up to the level of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve who are literally anointed as prophets seers and revelators, and who counsel and teachings seem to be far more consistent and guided by inspiration.

I apologize for posting this, it isn't something I've fully thought out or come to proper conclusions on. Perhaps it is just as likely that my choice to return home instead of taking Prozac as counseled by those priesthood authorities was in fact a sin and showed a deep lack of faith. Perhaps my life would have gone far better, or at least been better spiritually for the short time I remained, had I made that choice. Perhaps it was not inspiration and the guidance from God that led me through it, but rather my own pride and already growing distrust for various priesthood leaders there.

I've heard Prozac and similar drugs characterized as substances that influence the brain to be more dumb and happy... in many ways that sounds just plain wonderful. In a way I feel that how could I have been so stupid to turn down one of the few conscious modification substances that the Church not only allows but encourages.

I know this probably sounds horrible, and is opposite of most of what I believe and live my life by... but again perhaps I am and have been very wrong all along.

At the time and still I am concerned about such drugs dampening the little intelligence that God seems to have given me as a talent to develop. However, while it has come in handy for my career and helped me to earn a decent living while giving away a lot and helping many other people, it has never done me much good. My career has been dominated by long hours, hard work, and ultimate failure. If I had known then what I know now, I absolutely would have hit the Prozac hard and changed my career to being a mortgage broker until 2007 or 2008 while spending minimally and saving as much as possible, and then retired to a humble little farm. Hard work and choosing what I thought was best and believing I was inspired has really gotten me nowhere.

Mark & PatriotSaint,

You can call me names all you want. (Logical fallacies - adhominem attacks, in case you didn't know.)

They did worse to Jesus, who spoke against religious leaders.

Usually, when people resort to trying to hurt someone who has not hurt them, it is because they have issues themselves, & are projecting. I have not hurt you, yet you throw personal attacks at me. It's your choice, but anyone with any psychological awareness, will see your personal attacks on me, as a poor reflection on you.

jonesde wrote:...I don't have any other way to explain certain experiences, like the one above and many others. On my mission I was the financial secretary for two different mission presidents. The first I didn't get to know well and I was called just before he left, but he had horrible policies that starved the missionaries (including a no-dinner until returning home at 9:30 rule and an allowance for food and transportation that was so far from adequate that missionaries survived by accepting food from usually impoverished members or getting more money from home) while leaving the budget mostly unused.

The second mission president was just abrasive and ungrateful. My earliest memory of him was being shaken awake by a shouting man after working through most of the night to get monthly funds distributed to the zone leaders. I was still being trained by the previous secretary and had been told that working into the night and sleeping in the following day was the accepted approach to handle the huge time constraints placed on the financial secretary by the large amount of paperwork required, on top of the proselyting time requirements that left too little time for all of the paper work, especially during that busy time of month with many reports and a large number of bank transactions to prepare.

I stuck with it...
In other words, had I followed the counsel of the Mission President and Area President, it could have killed me.

I still don't know the answers to these questions or how this first into the bigger picture, but it leaves me with a distrust of Church leaders, up to the level of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve who are literally anointed as prophets seers and revelators, and who counsel and teachings seem to be far more consistent and guided by inspiration.

It's a bummer what happened with you on your mission.
Thanks for sharing it & for reminding me why I will encourage my children to serve humanitarian missions, as Jesus Christ taught in the parable of the good Samaritan, not selling our religious package, assuming the world must think as we do.

I have to disagree with your last statement.
Their council & teachings are anything but consistent when you compare their words with their actions.
Jesus would not build and open a shopping mall & the many many other questionable corporations the church owns, while robbing the poor of tithes. Deut 14:28-29 specifically states 1/3 of tithes are to be given to the poor, but not a penny is given by our business-oriented leaders. There have never before in history been so many starving to death - almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are in fatal need of basic - clean water, food etc. Jesus wouldn't neglect these, for building a shopping mall.
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One scripture that not only we & other Christians believe, but also Jews & Muslims is the commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." This is common sense, spiritually. If you have any other god before God, it will fail. Only God, who is LOVE, will not fail.

Thinker wrote:

jonesde wrote:...I don't have any other way to explain certain experiences, like the one above and many others. On my mission I was the financial secretary for two different mission presidents. The first I didn't get to know well and I was called just before he left, but he had horrible policies that starved the missionaries (including a no-dinner until returning home at 9:30 rule and an allowance for food and transportation that was so far from adequate that missionaries survived by accepting food from usually impoverished members or getting more money from home) while leaving the budget mostly unused.

The second mission president was just abrasive and ungrateful. My earliest memory of him was being shaken awake by a shouting man after working through most of the night to get monthly funds distributed to the zone leaders. I was still being trained by the previous secretary and had been told that working into the night and sleeping in the following day was the accepted approach to handle the huge time constraints placed on the financial secretary by the large amount of paperwork required, on top of the proselyting time requirements that left too little time for all of the paper work, especially during that busy time of month with many reports and a large number of bank transactions to prepare.

I stuck with it...
In other words, had I followed the counsel of the Mission President and Area President, it could have killed me.

I still don't know the answers to these questions or how this first into the bigger picture, but it leaves me with a distrust of Church leaders, up to the level of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve who are literally anointed as prophets seers and revelators, and who counsel and teachings seem to be far more consistent and guided by inspiration.

It's a bummer what happened with you on your mission.
Thanks for sharing it & for reminding me why I will encourage my children to serve humanitarian missions, as Jesus Christ taught in the parable of the good Samaritan, not selling our religious package, assuming the world must think as we do.

I'd still rather see my son serve a LDS Church mission than a humanitarian one. Most "humanitarian" organizations are incredibly corrupt and sometimes end up doing more harm than good. I also don't like the government (or pseudo-government for those affiliated or who collaborate with the UN) involvement in most humanitarian groups, and especially don't like the proposals that are creeping into politics to force youth into public service for a time.

In fact, I've wondered if part of the point of forcing youth into public service... and not allowing a religious mission to qualify for that (or perhaps not unless the religion meets certain mission-compromising criteria) would be a way for Satan to significantly reduce missionary work.

In general, men have weaknesses. In Church positions this can cause some harm, but in government positions it can be MUCH MUCH worse as they use violence and outright corruption to get what they want in terms of sexual immorality, getting other people to work so they don't have to, etc. Those actions are soul destroying and there seems to be little check on them, especially in so-called "humanitarian" organizations, and more especially in the cases where a government body hires a private organization to do the work. Privatization can actually be worse than direct government control when it is still funded through force (ie involuntarily).

So yeah, even with a well-vetted humanitarian organization I'd recommend a Church mission over it any day.

Mark wrote:

Thinker wrote:Jesus was not blinded when religious leaders like Pharisees pretend their evil behavior was good...

"And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup & the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness."
Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? But rather give alms of such things as ye have; & , behold, all things are clean unto you. But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint & rue & all manner of herbs, & pass over judgment & the love of God: these ought ye to have done, & not to leave the other undone."

Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, & greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, & the men that walk over them are not aware of them."
Woe unto you... for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, & ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers." -Luke 11

Deut 14:28, 29 is the most specific scripture about the spending of tithes.
Anyone know why it's not in LDS bible indexes & dictionaries?
It states that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to the poor.
On donation slips there are separate categories for the poor & for tithing.
I also wonder about the scripture interpretation transition from "increase" to "income."
IE: 2 men work at the same job, & receive the same income.
1 man lives at home with his mom & dad & does not have any bills, all his income, is "increase."
The 2nd man is the sole provider of a family of 9 & has many bills - mortgage, power, gas, groceries, etc... If both paid the same tithing, it would be unfair & a "grievous burden" for the 2nd man.
This is why scriptures state "increase" - NOT income.

Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees, who worshiped worldliness more than Godliness.
In media, I see something similar today.

Is that you Harmston? :ymdevil: You must have a lot more time on your hands now that all your followers are heading for the exits.. Good grief man who do you think you are kidding here? It is obvious you are on a crusade to paint the church and its leadership in a negative light any chance you can. The only posts you ever make here are done to criticize the church or the leadership in one way or another. Lets cut through the facade and speak plainly. Sheep meet your neighborhood wolf. )

Well, I don't see you quoting any scripture. You just attack thinker, and when people like that say things that are "out of line" you go running under the mantle of "a prophet a prophet, we have a prophet" without any scriptures at all.

The scriptures are the keystone of our religion, I suggest we start using them.

I've given some thought to the problem of "unrighteous dominion" in the Lord's Church; the subject under discussion IMO.

The Lord addressed the problem in D&C 121, and stated that "it is the nature and disposition of almost all men" to administer unrighteous dominion. Someone addressed this very issue at Gen'l Conf this past weekend! well-done talk.

1. "Unrighteous dominion" has been a trial of the faith of myself and many others -- again, below the fifteen prophets, seers and revelators.

2. Can we personally choose to remain active BEFORE THE LORD instead of choosing otherwise? I think so.

3. There is another ORGANIZATION besides that of the Church that we can turn to... with questions like "to prozac" or not, to submit to being shaken and yelled at by leader, etc...
I am speaking of the Family Order -- otherwise known as the Patriarchal Order. The Church recognizes the authority of the father (and mother) of a family for their children, yes, to receive revelation/inspiration for their children in their stewardship. This "parallel" organization is built up in the Temples and is the eternal organization...

I was a Stake High Councilor then a Bishop for a number of years. Then I was released. I am also a father in Zion-- from that I will NEVER be released.

I do wish I had realized more about this // organization -- the family -- and its great opportunity and power against unrighteous dominion, years ago. Now I feel that --
when one member of the family is under attack, all members of the family are under attack.
Further -- I am resolved that I will do what I can to defend my family against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Walden wrote:The scriptures are the keystone of our religion, I suggest we start using them.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

shadow wrote:

Walden wrote:The scriptures are the keystone of our religion, I suggest we start using them.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

"And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest.." (D&C 124:45-46)

jonesde wrote:
I may be wrong about this, but I think the "Lord's anointed" refers literally to those anointed as prophets. I certainly believe in being respectful and even deferential (in the giving a benefit of the doubt sense) to local leaders, but my experience with them has been worlds apart from my limited experience with the 15 prophets that lead the Church.

I don't have any other way to explain certain experiences, like the one above and many others. On my mission I was the financial secretary for two different mission presidents. The first I didn't get to know well and I was called just before he left, but he had horrible policies that starved the missionaries (including a no-dinner until returning home at 9:30 rule and an allowance for food and transportation that was so far from adequate that missionaries survived by accepting food from usually impoverished members or getting more money from home) while leaving the budget mostly unused.

The second mission president was just abrasive and ungrateful. My earliest memory of him was being shaken awake by a shouting man after working through most of the night to get monthly funds distributed to the zone leaders. I was still being trained by the previous secretary and had been told that working into the night and sleeping in the following day was the accepted approach to handle the huge time constraints placed on the financial secretary by the large amount of paperwork required, on top of the proselyting time requirements that left too little time for all of the paper work, especially during that busy time of month with many reports and a large number of bank transactions to prepare.

I stuck with it, and things actually got worse as the Church pulled one of the tools we had been using to do electronic transactions instead of going to the bank with usually around 100 manually filled out transaction forms. On top of that for a few months I was the only one in the offices with a drivers license, ie the APs and the other secretary did not have licenses and so were not allowed to drive the mission van. This meant that I was stuck shuttling missionaries to and from the bus station and airport, and also to doctor's appointments and all sorts of little errands. During this time I was still under intense pressure from the APs and President to keep up my proselyting efforts, especially since my companion was an AP. I was constantly lectured by people who had little to do compared to the workload I had, and in some cases whose job I was doing because they could not (ie with the drivers license issue for example).

I handled the problem by working into the night when needed because there were so few hours during the day to get all the paperwork done. However, I never slept in for even a minute after that first bad experience with it. With very little sleep and a poor and inconsistent diet I gained 60 pounds over the six months I was there. I started having problems with staying awake, even while driving though thankfully never had an accident because of that (surely a miracle, as I fell asleep at stop lights frequently, and fortunately the other secretary was generally along to help me stay awake). By the time I left the offices I was starting to have other health problems.

In my first area out I was again a junior companion and to a senior companion to was what was referred as a "pharisee" in that he drove really hard, was extremely strict about the rules, and unfortunately was not only unkind to junior companions but to investigators as well (much like my first companion, before going into the offices). Both of these guys managed to get investigators, especially female investigators, to feel so bad that they left the room crying.

Anyway, I started getting weird health problems like feeling really anxious and getting tunnel vision. I reported this to the President through my companion (who was the district leader) and was assigned to a different companion who was known as being more compassionate. I saw the mission doctor and he diagnosed me with an anxiety disorder and recommended exercise and a better diet, so I got special permission to set aside time a few mornings a week for exercise, and I got a little extra money to buy some fresh foods (which I had not really seen over the previous 10 months, other than a desperate attempt to eat something fresh that involved downing a raw onion, that being the only sort of thing that was generally available and affordable). This didn't produce results and after meals I started having worse problems, including a couple of instances of starting to black out... like a tunnel vision and dizziness requiring me to sit down. After an incident in a supermarket where I was suddenly unable to walk straight and fell to the floor, I saw the mission doctor again and he recommended prozac, insisting it was all a psychological issue.

I came from a family that was wary of this sort of drug so I initially refused, preferring to pursue a more natural treatment involving an improvement of health with more exercise and a better diet. Unfortunately, those things were not available (or allowed) as needed while on a mission, so I was told this was not acceptable. I had a visit with the Area Authority Seventy who explained this to me and recommended that I take the prozac as it was the only way to continue on my mission, and that was the most important thing at this time in my life. He really pushed hard to convince me, and I accepted it.

I started taking prozac, knowing that it would take a couple of weeks to take effect. During this time I was back in the offices helping out but not in any official capacity. I was on a sort of "sick leave". I really didn't feel right about taking the prozac and was concerned it would cause more harm than good, and the thing about blacking out really disturbed me because I didn't see how that would be caused by a psychological anxiety disorder. After a few days of taking the prozac and doing a lot of scripture study and prayer, I decided to stop and go home to get better instead. This was met with pretty severe judgment and encouraging me to do otherwise by the mission President and other elders. Even the grounds keeper, who was a member I knew well from working with him before, thought I should stay.

The trip home was all the more enjoyable because it was just before general conference and I had the pleasure of traveling with the Area President (Seventy) who had pushed so hard for me to choose the Prozac route.

After arriving home I visited our family doctor and he immediately recommended a glucose tolerance test. The test result was that I had a problem with low blood sugar, and he theorized that with the lifestyle and diet I was under on my mission that the blackouts were actually severely low blood sugar. Prozac actually has a destabilizing effect on blood sugar, so that could have made the problem worse.

In other words, had I followed the counsel of the Mission President and Area President, it could have killed me. My patriarchal blessing says that my life would be threatened while I was on my mission, and I always thought it was the gang-related stuff that one of the sick elders in the office had been involved in before his mission. This result in me being followed for a couple of months while I went about the business of the mission, and they actually took this elder and beat him up and questioned him about this. He told me this in confidence as we were good friends from his time there, so I don't think the President or others in the mission even knew it was going on, and his story for getting beaten up was that it was the angry husband of a woman he had slept with (which unfortunately he really did do, and was promptly sent home for it... but no one knew, even me often staying up late, that he was sneaking out at night for this until he blamed his injuries on the husband instead of the gang). Anyway, perhaps my life was in danger there, but I don't think so. My life was probably in more danger from my hypoglycemic condition.

So how could this happen? How could the Area President (a Seventy) and the Mission President have been so wrong and it was up to me as a young elder who had been portrayed as psychologically inadequate, and a few years before my mission morally inadequate as well (though in relatively minor ways). I had some self-confidence as I had finished by BS at BYU before my mission (when I was about 19, and I left on my mission at 20), but most of this was worn to nothing in the mission field. Frankly, I'm not sure how I was able to make and stick to that decision. I can only surmise that it was God literally guiding me through it... but that is my feeling on it now and I hand't really though this through until recently.

Why would God inspire me to go against the counsel of those in high Church leadership positions over me? Why would this literally be a life-threatening circumstance predicted much earlier in my patriarchal blessing? Why was I always in a number 2 position under the AP in the MTC, the zone leader in my first area, a few different APs while in the offices, a district leader and then a zone leader before going home? I was never in a position of leadership, just always under close supervision (and judgment) of leadership... and I knew my own weaknesses and that I was far from worthy and able to hold such positions... but also saw the constant mistakes and frequent pride of these people.

I still don't know the answers to these questions or how this first into the bigger picture, but it leaves me with a distrust of Church leaders, up to the level of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve who are literally anointed as prophets seers and revelators, and who counsel and teachings seem to be far more consistent and guided by inspiration.

jonesde, this has been a real crucible for you. I can tell the challenge isn't finished. Make sure you have the end destination fully in mind before you continue the journey. Each step must lead toward the final destination or it is the wrong path. God allows us challenges to give impetus for learning. I encourage you to stay humble, stay meek, let the Spirit teach. I know we are to give thanks to God in all things. "This too shall give thee experience and be for thy good." You seem a very strong person. I imagine this has strengthened your willingness to trust what you know to be right inside. I just reread my notes from Conference, and noticed several places that gave counsel to just this sort of an experience. God bless in the next stage of this interesting journey. Thanks for being vulnerable enough to share.

jonesde wrote:

Thinker wrote:I will encourage my children to serve humanitarian missions...

I'd still rather see my son serve a LDS Church mission than a humanitarian one. Most "humanitarian" organizations are incredibly corrupt and sometimes end up doing more harm than good.

I think he meant serve an LDS Church humanitarian mission - many are called to do so. My sister served a humanitarian mission for the LDS Church in Honduras. Her calling there was to help the people with every day living sort of things, medical, sanitary, food, clean water, etc... rather than go door-to-door teaching the gospel, etc... She served there as a full-time humanitarian missionary for the Church for 18 months (it's even worded in her mission call that way), and it was an incredible experience for her.

Stella Solaris wrote:

jonesde wrote:

Thinker wrote:I will encourage my children to serve humanitarian missions...

I'd still rather see my son serve a LDS Church mission than a humanitarian one. Most "humanitarian" organizations are incredibly corrupt and sometimes end up doing more harm than good.

I think he meant serve an LDS Church humanitarian mission - many are called to do so. My sister served a humanitarian mission for the LDS Church in Honduras. Her calling there was to help the people with every day living sort of things, medical, sanitary, food, clean water, etc... rather than go door-to-door teaching the gospel, etc... She served there as a full-time humanitarian missionary for the Church for 18 months (it's even worded in her mission call that way), and it was an incredible experience for her.

Interesting, sorry for missing that. If those are managed differently, ie less regimented and restricted, then it might be a great option for lots of people. It seems like in proselyting missions they are constantly talking about raising the bar, and this is interpreted as a need for regimental perfection. In other words, if you want baptisms then you better go to bed and the exact time, and even more importantly wake up at the exact time... not a minute early or late. You must eat meals during the exact times specified and in the ways specified, and if the mission is having problems with people spending too much time on dinner... get rid of dinner!

I think most of the problems on my mission were summed up by: "perfection is the enemy of good enough". I'm not perfect, far from it. That was reinforced to me constantly on my mission, and eventually I had a choice of take a drug to get you closer to perfect, or get out... you're not wanted because you're not up to the standards required for this mission.

I know not all proselyting missions are this way... it's really the luck of the draw in terms of the Mission President, the influence and traditions of previous mission presidents, the elders in leadership positions (especially the APs and Zone Leaders), and so on. Of course, it all starts from the mission president who chooses these other leaders, and usually chooses them for their strengths relative to what he thinks is important.

If Church service missions are a bit more reasonable, and not so totally pharisaic, then yeah... sounds good. Of course, for young men is it considered an acceptable alternative? My guess is that with the whole priesthood responsibility thing that a service mission is NOT an acceptable alternative to a proselyting mission.

BTW, if these are the sorts of standards used to separate the wheat from the tares... I guess I've been preselected for the tares side... at least I know.

DrJones wrote: I do wish I had realized more about this // organization -- the family -- and its great opportunity and power against unrighteous dominion, years ago. Now I feel that --
when one member of the family is under attack, all members of the family are under attack.
Further -- I am resolved that I will do what I can to defend my family against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I also wish I realized more about this before.
Yes, we've been told that as members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST, ALL mankind are sons & daughters of a Heavenly Father and Mother, therefore we are all brothers & sisters. In essence the entire world is not only related if you take genealogy back far enough, but more importantly, we are spiritually related & are a big family.

When any of the family is under attack, all members of the family are under attack.
I am resolved that I will do what I can to defend my family against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
This includes defending our almost 1,000,000,000 brothers and sisters who are starving, tens of thousands will have died today, of preventable causes. 1/3 of tithes are to be for the poor, as explained in Deut 14:28-29. Some of our family are being robbed of tithes & as their family, I feel obligated to stand up for them...

"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor & needy." -Proverbs 31:8-9

Jonesde,
Jesus taught that the 2 greatest commandments, of which "hang all the law & the prophets" were to love God & to love our neighbor as ourselves.
When asked who our neighbor is, Jesus taught a parable about a man who was attacked by theives & left for dead.
A priest and then temple worker Levite came by & didn't help him, but continued on their way.
Then a Samaritan came by & had compassion on him, took him to an inn & cared for his wounds & cared for him. Then this good Samaritan paid the inn keeper to continue helping the man. Jesus asked which of these 3 was neighbor to the man & the reply was the Samaritan who showed compassion. Jesus said, "Go and do likewise."

Notice, the good Samaritan did not preach Judaism, or any other religion.
He simply helped the man.
This is primarily why I will encourage my children to serve in humanitarian capacities, not proselytizing.

Yes, it is true that some humanitarian work is misguided.
When I visited the church's humanitarian center in SLC, I noticed what took up the most space was the clothing donation sorting. There were many dumpsters full of clothes & in each one was a person sorting donated clothing to be bundled and shipped to poor countries.
I recently watched a documentary that showed how "free" clothing donations to poor countries were putting poor countries' local clothing vendors out of business because they couldn't compete with "free."

I've also read that developed countries (DCs) are often responsible for some of the poverty in less developed countries (LDCs). DCs or corporate & government backed representatives sometimes persuade & threaten LDSc with taking inflated high interest loans, which ends up taking up most of their budget to repay. DCs then feel they have the right to help themselves to the LDCs natural resources... this happened in Equador, Panama, & in other countries like Iraq. Why else do you think we went to war for so long there? Oil!

The solution to poverty is not simple.
But "where there's a will there's a way."
When the church sets a priority, they find talented people & resources to first find out what is needed & how best to get the job done. There are many lives at stake, many dying right now. To follow Jesus' teaching to "go and do likewise" in loving, our neighbors in need, we must encourage our leaders to prioritize the poor, or else direct our tithing in ways that are more Christ-like & compassionate.

Thinker,
I can appreciate your emphasis on love as the motivating factor in all that we do. Indeed it should be. But the way you speak of it it comes off as: Hang all the law and the prophets, all you need is love. Sounds like something from the 60s. But Christ taught that love was much more than clothing the naked and feeding the hungary. This life is so very temporary. The eternities await us and the care we give to the soul/spirit is just as important as the care we give for our bodies, which is the tabernacle of our spirits. Christ taught us that if we don't repent and be baptised we will be damned. Humanitarian efforts, as good as they are, will not save us if we reject the laws and the prophets. The terrestrial kingdom was made for such people.

Rand wrote: jonesde, this has been a real crucible for you. I can tell the challenge isn't finished. Make sure you have the end destination fully in mind before you continue the journey. Each step must lead toward the final destination or it is the wrong path. God allows us challenges to give impetus for learning. I encourage you to stay humble, stay meek, let the Spirit teach. I know we are to give thanks to God in all things. "This too shall give thee experience and be for thy good." You seem a very strong person. I imagine this has strengthened your willingness to trust what you know to be right inside. I just reread my notes from Conference, and noticed several places that gave counsel to just this sort of an experience. God bless in the next stage of this interesting journey. Thanks for being vulnerable enough to share.

This was 14 years ago, and you're right... it is certainly not yet resolved for me and I don't know if it will be in this life. Many experiences since then, including a bad temple marriage and various Church interactions related to it, have not helped clarify this much.

I wish these things had strengthened my faith and confidence in inspiration, but they haven't. Perhaps I have responded poorly to all of them and further distanced myself from God. Perhaps I did okay and even followed some inspiration, but given the outcome it's sometimes hard to believe that to be the case. The problem is, I don't know. For all I know I'm a bad person by nature and deserved all of the treatment I've receive and far more. Some people seem driven to judge people and persecute those who don't meet their standards... and for some positions in the Church judgment is part of their job.

For me it's still all very confusing. I very rarely have confidence in inspiration, even if I'm pretty sure and felt strongly that is was an inspired thought or desire.

The one thing I have learned for sure is that I don't like what might be described as "pharisees" and I'm willing to forego a great many theoretical "blessings" to avoid such people. This is especially true for the "blessings" I was taught about from diapers on up but that turned into nightmares and tragedies for me. Unfortunately this sort of person seems to be drawn to religion and given that their weaknesses are easy enough to conceal that they sometimes even believe themselves to be practically perfect, they often end up in leadership positions.

In theory difficulties make you stronger out the other end. Can these sorts of difficulties even make someone stronger? My feeling so far is that no, all they can do is cement a self-image that pushes someone to avoid the Church. Perhaps it is the colored view I have, but whatever it means to be "good" in the Church, it's clearly not me. Unfortunately, I worry that what it means to be "good" in the Church is that it means to be a good strict pharisee.

I've always planned to make another go at it with the Church once my life is simplified a bit. However, I'm not sure that will ever happen and as things are now I don't think I can handle playing the whipping boy game as I did in the past. It's tough always being the bad guy and always feeling inadequate, so until I'm on a better footing psychologically and with self-image and such, I worry how I'll respond to that sort of psychological beating... the last time I did this it didn't go well, and I chickened out when the Bishop sent me to talk to the Stake President to get some advice from him, and he was the State Senator who pigeonholed me as a flawed person he happened to be targeting with a new law at the time. Lovely.

Or perhaps I should humbly subject myself to whatever these Church leaders feel fit to inflict on me and consider that just treatment and punishment from God as part of my repentance. And should I have a mental break as part of it and end up in a mental hospital or prison, perhaps that is also what God wants for me. These things I don't know...

I apologize if all of this seems dark and depressing. Frankly I've spent so many hours discussing such things (though years ago) and so many years living with such things that it isn't such a big deal. When I was young I remember being HORRIFIED by anything less than perfection. Now I feel more affinity with the homeless and criminals than with fancy people in fancy cars going to fancy shopping malls to get more fancy clothes to wear to their fancy churches and impress their fancy friends. Perhaps that's why in my many worldly travels and unwise late night long walks I've never been mugged or even threatened. Or perhaps that is another test so that I mistrust the law enforcers more than the law breakers, since my experience with each seems to be so EXTREMELY different than what is commonly portrayed.

Isn't life wonderfully confusing?

Thinker wrote:Mark & PatriotSaint,

You can call me names all you want. (Logical fallacies - adhominem attacks, in case you didn't know.)

They did worse to Jesus, who spoke against religious leaders.

Usually, when people resort to trying to hurt someone who has not hurt them, it is because they have issues themselves, & are projecting. I have not hurt you, yet you throw personal attacks at me. It's your choice, but anyone with any psychological awareness, will see your personal attacks on me, as a poor reflection on you.

Hi bud, Jesus and his anointed have also told us time after time not to speak ill of the anointed... take a chill pill, and learn patience, lest your lack of patience ( your answers will come latter in life or in next) for answers comes back and bites in you....the more you point the finger at the living prophet, the more damnation you bring to your poor soul. The Church already does so much, but it can only do so much, maybe we should focus more in doing our home teaching, creating true relationships with those we teach, and focus more in actually acquiring the power of the priesthood.
Question, what are YOU doing to change the world and rid it of hunger? what am I? and even if we could get rid of it.... would that truly save people?

Sadly the more stubborn we become about this issue, the more we criticize our leadership, the more priesthood power we loose.

Please give it a rest!