Like Pharisees?

[Ben McClintock]

As would I! But what I'm asking is how did OTHER people living at that time and in that place - regular members of the Church - how did THEY know Abinadi was called by God? He came out of nowhere; he wasn't a leader in their Church; he was a stranger to them - so how did any of THEM know he was called by God?

same way we know Joseph Smith is a Prophet, and not the Pope.

Did what he teach conform to the Gospel? Did he keep all the commandments? Did he change the ordinances (ie full baptism vs sprinkling)? Does the Spirit confirm to you his prophetic calling?

[Mark]

If we believe that our Bishop is neglecting the widows and the fatherless in the ward, then it is possible that the Lord may instruct us to give our money directly to them.
.

Dear Awake,

If I felt someone in the ward ( of which the bishop is responsible for everyone in the ward's boundaries, lds and non-lds) was being neglected I would not be afraid to approach the Bishop or the Relief Society President or High Priest/Elders Quorums heads and ask if we could help them. We have a wonderful ward and Stake and I see no neglect. There is lots of service, food and sometimes monetary assistance given (which is done by the bishop very discreetly, as it should be). We take dinner into for people all the time, and occaissionally anonymously gift cards to grocery stores. We have on occasion even contributed to someone else's missionary fund. Never would I even consider "well let's see.....I spent $100-400 in serving others so I am deducting that from my tithing due this month" :ymsigh: I am bemused by your thoughts.

You are obviously not a new order mormon yet Karen. You need to get with the program girl. Things are a changing for all the "enlightened" ones in the church. You need to break free from the those old stuffy traditions like paying tithing and offerings to the Bishop and supporting the Brethren. In fact I have a sneaky suspicion that you will have many co-horts here on this here forum when you free yourself from all these crazy traditions that are found in the LDS church and follow the new order mormon path to zen. :ymdevil:

[EmmaLee]

As would I! But what I'm asking is how did OTHER people living at that time and in that place - regular members of the Church - how did THEY know Abinadi was called by God? He came out of nowhere; he wasn't a leader in their Church; he was a stranger to them - so how did any of THEM know he was called by God?

same way we know Joseph Smith is a Prophet, and not the Pope.

Did what he teach conform to the Gospel? Did he keep all the commandments? Did he change the ordinances (ie full baptism vs sprinkling)? Does the Spirit confirm to you his prophetic calling?

Exactly! I wanted to put that 'two-thumbs up' smilie here, but can't find it, so this instead... :ymhug: Thank goodness we have these ways - especially the last one - to tell if someone is a true prophet or not. Moroni 10:5

[A Random Phrase]

So, I have a question. What if the Lord decided to raise up a prophet to warn us to repent so we wouldn't be destroyed, but He did not call that person out of the hierarchy of the church. How many of us would recognize him? How many of us would even bother to listen to him, let alone take his words to God and ask God, "You know, this guy isn't part of the authorized leadership, but he says Jesus told him face to face to give us a message of warning. Is this guy your servant, or is he an imposter?" Would we be so smug that we know God's ways that we feel we can judge what He would or would not do? And God had better not step out of line or do something unexpected - like get tired of leaders who are not following Him as they ought.

Just wondering.

[HeirofNumenor]

It appears the Lord Joseph Smith in the D&C that this scenario would NOT happen - that all revelation for the Church would come through the Prophet, and those whom he appointed (apostles particularly).
The Hiram Page incident fits this well, and there were at least two other instances of this warning against outside revelation.

[reese]

It appears the Lord Joseph Smith in the D&C that this scenario would NOT happen - that all revelation for the Church would come through the Prophet, and those whom he appointed (apostles particularly).
The Hiram Page incident fits this well, and there were at least two other instances of this warning against outside revelation.

A message of repent or be destroyed is not really revelation for the church though, is it.

[shadow]

So, I have a question. What if the Lord decided to raise up a prophet to warn us to repent so we wouldn't be destroyed, but He did not call that person out of the hierarchy of the church. How many of us would recognize him? How many of us would even bother to listen to him, let alone take his words to God and ask God, "You know, this guy isn't part of the authorized leadership, but he says Jesus told him face to face to give us a message of warning. Is this guy your servant, or is he an imposter?" Would we be so smug that we know God's ways that we feel we can judge what He would or would not do? And God had better not step out of line or do something unexpected - like get tired of leaders who are not following Him as they ought.

Just wondering.

And where would his authority (keys) come from? And has the Lord specified in our day where His servants come from, or rather where His servants get their authority (keys) from? Search it out and you'll find the answer. We've been over this quite a few times since I've been on this site. Some people think prophets will come from outside the church, but in reality they come from inside the church, those who have been called and set apart for such occurrences. President Eyring is one of those people but many dismiss him including his wonderful Priesthood session talk. Yes, that was a friendly little jab at Reese :ymhug:

The truth is I've been called to repentance by people outside the church, and I needed it! But a prophet to warn and lead us will be a prophet in the Lords church. I think sometimes people forget just whose church this is! It's His way or the highway.

[A Random Phrase]

But, Shadow, did the authority to be a prophet called by God's own mouth pass down after Joseph Smith? Or was it the office of president of the high priesthood only, that was passed down? How much of what was Joseph's own domain as a prophet who talked with Gods and angels that the D&C refers to (like him being the only mouthpiece) did God intend to apply to Joseph only? And how much did God intend to be passed down to the presidents of the church throughout the years? And how would we know?

I didn't hear priesthood (being female, I wasn't invited ). What was Elder Eyring's talk about?

[shadow]

But, Shadow, did the authority to be a prophet called by God's own mouth pass down after Joseph Smith? Or was it the office of president of the high priesthood only, that was passed down? How much of what was Joseph's own domain as a prophet who talked with Gods and angels that the D&C refers to (like him being the only mouthpiece) did God intend to apply to Joseph only? And how much did God intend to be passed down to the presidents of the church throughout the years? And how would we know?

I didn't hear priesthood (being female, I wasn't invited ). What was Elder Eyring's talk about?

I'm not sure how to even respond to the first part of your post :-s
Here's the talk-
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think Denver Snuffer and his priethood holding followers walked out in protest during that talk

[EclecticLibertarian]

Just wondering.

Previous leaders of the Church have said that God would simply pick them off, if necessary one by one until He got one who would listen to Him and do His will.

[A Random Phrase]

I'm not sure how to even respond to the first part of your post :-s

I don't know either; that's why I asked.

Here's the talk-http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... t?lang=eng
I think Denver Snuffer and his priethood holding followers walked out in protest during that talk

Thanks for the link.

[laronius]

But, Shadow, did the authority to be a prophet called by God's own mouth pass down after Joseph Smith? Or was it the office of president of the high priesthood only, that was passed down? How much of what was Joseph's own domain as a prophet who talked with Gods and angels that the D&C refers to (like him being the only mouthpiece) did God intend to apply to Joseph only? And how much did God intend to be passed down to the presidents of the church throughout the years? And how would we know?

I didn't hear priesthood (being female, I wasn't invited ). What was Elder Eyring's talk about?

If my understanding is correct, the calling of prophet comes with the office of president of the high priesthood. Since a priesthood leader can receive revelation on behalf of those under his stewardship, and the president of the high priesthood is essentially over the whole church and earth, he therefore can receive revelation for the world. The apostles as a quorum also hold the same keys and authority as the prophet so when THE prophet dies, the quorum of the twelve apostles have the authority to receive revelation as to who the next prophet will be. I think that is probably why Joseph Smith said to always go with the majority of the quorum because they in essence are filling the role of prophet when an official prophet/president is not in place.

[Ben McClintock]

But, Shadow, did the authority to be a prophet called by God's own mouth pass down after Joseph Smith? Or was it the office of president of the high priesthood only, that was passed down? How much of what was Joseph's own domain as a prophet who talked with Gods and angels that the D&C refers to (like him being the only mouthpiece) did God intend to apply to Joseph only? And how much did God intend to be passed down to the presidents of the church throughout the years? And how would we know?

I didn't hear priesthood (being female, I wasn't invited ). What was Elder Eyring's talk about?

If my understanding is correct, the calling of prophet comes with the office of president of the high priesthood. Since a priesthood leader can receive revelation on behalf of those under his stewardship, and the president of the high priesthood is essentially over the whole church and earth, he therefore can receive revelation for the world. The apostles as a quorum also hold the same keys and authority as the prophet so when THE prophet dies, the quorum of the twelve apostles have the authority to receive revelation as to who the next prophet will be. I think that is probably why Joseph Smith said to always go with the majority of the quorum because they in essence are filling the role of prophet when an official prophet/president is not in place.

Then wouldn't that make the 12 higher than the President? How can one be higher in authority than the one who calls them?

All of the keys were passed to the 12 (and others) and there are accounts (some dispute these of coarse) where Joseph (in accordance with scripture) set apart Brigham specifically to replace him. There are accounts though of him doing this to his son and others as well. Are they all true? Did some of them make it up? That maybe one like the First vision where you will have to have the spirit confirm?

Either way, the scriptures say it is the right of the "President of the High Priesthood" to appoint his replacement. Then it is complete when the Lord comes and seals it.

At times the replacement hasn't been called and it just falls upon the most senior. I think this may have been the case with John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and perhaps others (still trying to find the references again (lost them :S ) They both saw Christ and Wilford said that the Lord came and told him personally not to wait to reorganize the FP after the death of John Taylor (or maybe Im mixing that up with Snow, wither way, the point still stands)

[awake]

Joseph Smith taught that we 'can' and 'should' all be prophets and prophetesses. So that means there is no truth or revelation or vision or visitation that we can't receive from Heavenly Father if we are worthy, even mysteries.

Joseph also proved that it doesn't take a baptized member to become a prophet and see Christ and other heavenly messengers.

Thus non-members can have the Spirit and receive just as much revelation as any member, if they are worthy, but somewhere along the line that revelation will of course lead them to the restored Church.

But even being a prophet or prophetess doesn't mean they are to lead the whole church or make decisions for it, that is given to one specific prophet who is called by God to do so.

But truth is truth, and thus any true revelation or truth any righteous person receives is always helpful to anyone who can discern it's truth and learn and be warned. We are commanded to warn others once we have been warned by the Spirit.

The prophet Samuel the Lamanite came out of nowhere and was told to warn the people. Any righteous person can be inspired to do that.

But we must have the Holy Spirit as our guide to be able to discern truth from error from any source whatsoever.

[patriotsaint]

Joseph Smith taught that we 'can' and 'should' all be prophets and prophetesses. So that means there is no truth or revelation or vision or visitation that we can't receive from Heavenly Father if we are worthy, even mysteries.

Joseph also proved that it doesn't take a baptized member to become a prophet and see Christ and other heavenly messengers.

Thus non-members can have the Spirit and receive just as much revelation as any member, if they are worthy, but somewhere along the line that revelation will of course lead them to the restored Church.

But even being a prophet or prophetess doesn't mean they are to lead the whole church or make decisions for it, that is given to one specific prophet who is called by God to do so.

But truth is truth, and thus any true revelation or truth any righteous person receives is always helpful to anyone who can discern it's truth and learn and be warned. We are commanded to warn others once we have been warned by the Spirit.

The prophet Samuel the Lamanite came out of nowhere and was told to warn the people. Any righteous person can be inspired to do that.

But we must have the Holy Spirit as our guide to be able to discern truth from error from any source whatsoever.

Non members cannot "have the Spirit" as in gift of the Holy Ghost. Here is a quote from the Church's website explaining this concept:

The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.

So no, nonmembers cannot receive as much revelation as any member. They can receive a witness the gospel is true.

As to your assertion that Samuel the Lamanite "came out of nowhere", how do you know he wasn't commissioned to preach by a Church authority? You don't believe that Nephi was the only authority among the Nephites and Lamanites simply because he was the prophet who held the records do you? The Lords house is a house of order. Samuel was called to preach as was Abinadi. (it's just as easy for me to assert my opinion on this as you to assert the contrary)

I think you and others who think along these same lines could benefit from a review of Elder Oak's talk "Two Lines of Communication" found here. Here is just one of the quotes from it:

Some members or former members of our church fail to recognize the importance of the priesthood line. They underestimate the importance of the Church and its leaders and its programs. Relying entirely on the personal line, they go their own way, purporting to define doctrine ... contrary to the teachings of prophet-leaders.

[karen2cruise]

Joseph Smith taught that we 'can' and 'should' all be prophets and prophetesses. So that means there is no truth or revelation or vision or visitation that we can't receive from Heavenly Father if we are worthy, even mysteries.

Daniel Ludlow discussed this. See:
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/12/i-hav ... prophetess" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In general, this term seems to be used in the Bible to describe a woman (man) who had a special gift of prophecy or foretelling or to show that a certain woman(man) had an abundance of the Spirit in understanding or teaching the gospel plan. Of course, it is possible that some women(men) were prophetes(ses) in both senses of the word.

The gift of prophecy is a special spiritual endowment that is available to every worthy member of the Church. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has said: “Every member of the Church—acting in submission to the laws and system which the Lord has ordained—is expected to have the gift of prophecy. It is by this gift that a testimony of the truth comes.” (Mormon Doctrine, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1958, p. 542.)

One definition of a prophet or prophetess, then, is one who knows by the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, “for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Rev. 19:10). Moses prayed, “would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them” (Num. 11:29). Thus, a (person) who had an abundance of the special gift of testimony may have been referred to as a prophet(ess).

[awake]

Non members cannot "have the Spirit" as in gift of the Holy Ghost. Here is a quote from the Church's website explaining this concept:

The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.

So no, nonmembers cannot receive as much revelation as any member. They can receive a witness the gospel is true.

I believe that non-members can indeed possess the Holy Ghost if they are worthy, far more than just as a witness that the Gospel is true. I believe non-members can receive much revelation and visions and visitations, just as Joseph did as a non-member, for all those things require the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost comes to anyone on earth who is righteous and possesses true Christlike love. The greater the love one has, the greater the amount of the presence of the Holy Ghost. If they have the opportunity to be baptized they will do it & receive an even a greater abundance of the Spirit.

I also believe that our own personal revelation is only judged & tested by what the holy scriptures way, not by anyone's else's opinions. For everyone's opinions & teachings must be in harmony with the scriptures, no matter what calling they hold.

[awake]

Joseph Smith taught that we 'can' and 'should' all be prophets and prophetesses. So that means there is no truth or revelation or vision or visitation that we can't receive from Heavenly Father if we are worthy, even mysteries.

Daniel Ludlow discussed this. See:
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/12/i-hav ... prophetess" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In general, this term seems to be used in the Bible to describe a woman (man) who had a special gift of prophecy or foretelling or to show that a certain woman(man) had an abundance of the Spirit in understanding or teaching the gospel plan. Of course, it is possible that some women(men) were prophetes(ses) in both senses of the word.

The gift of prophecy is a special spiritual endowment that is available to every worthy member of the Church. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has said: “Every member of the Church—acting in submission to the laws and system which the Lord has ordained—is expected to have the gift of prophecy. It is by this gift that a testimony of the truth comes.” (Mormon Doctrine, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1958, p. 542.)

One definition of a prophet or prophetess, then, is one who knows by the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, “for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Rev. 19:10). Moses prayed, “would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them” (Num. 11:29). Thus, a (person) who had an abundance of the special gift of testimony may have been referred to as a prophet(ess).

Thanks so much Karen, for posting that link and those quotes. They are great.

[reese]

And where would his authority (keys) come from? And has the Lord specified in our day where His servants come from, or rather where His servants get their authority (keys) from? Search it out and you'll find the answer. We've been over this quite a few times since I've been on this site. Some people think prophets will come from outside the church, but in reality they come from inside the church, those who have been called and set apart for such occurrences. President Eyring is one of those people but many dismiss him including his wonderful Priesthood session talk. Yes, that was a friendly little jab at Reese :ymhug:

The truth is I've been called to repentance by people outside the church, and I needed it! But a prophet to warn and lead us will be a prophet in the Lords church. I think sometimes people forget just whose church this is! It's His way or the highway.

Well here is a big jabby hug right back at you :ymhug: . But I have to ask, Mark hasn't convinced you that I am a man has he? Because I am not, and therefore I was not present for Elder Eyring's priesthood meeting talk. But I will listen to it now.
Now as far as "the prophet who will call us to repentance", the Lord is capable of giving someone priesthood authority outside of the established practice in the church. Whether he will or not is yet to be seen. But I don't think someone calling us to repentance has to be a "prophet" anyway. At least not our definition of what a prophet is. They could simply be on an errand for the Lord. A message of repent or be destroyed, does not require someone sustained in GC to a special calling, thereby alerting all of us that we are not being warned and should get it together and repent. That would kindof take away the whole "test" aspect of it, wouldn't it? I think we should always take the Lord's patterns into account. And he has always used obscure people who were not part of the established leadership of the time. At the very least we should be open to the possibilty of him doing that again.

[patriotsaint]

Non members cannot "have the Spirit" as in gift of the Holy Ghost. Here is a quote from the Church's website explaining this concept:

The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.

So no, nonmembers cannot receive as much revelation as any member. They can receive a witness the gospel is true.

I believe that non-members can indeed possess the Holy Ghost if they are worthy, far more than just as a witness that the Gospel is true. I believe non-members can receive much revelation and visions and visitations, just as Joseph did as a non-member, for all those things require the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost comes to anyone on earth who is righteous and possesses true Christlike love. The greater the love one has, the greater the amount of the presence of the Holy Ghost. If they have the opportunity to be baptized they will do it & receive an even a greater abundance of the Spirit.

I also believe that our own personal revelation is only judged & tested by what the holy scriptures way, not by anyone's else's opinions. For everyone's opinions & teachings must be in harmony with the scriptures, no matter what calling they hold.

Where is your scriptural proof? All you have done is restate your opinion here, which I have shown is contrary to the teachings of the Church. I think you are confusing the Holy Ghost with the Light or Spirit of Christ. For more info on the Light of Christ check here.

[karen2cruise]

Where is your scriptural proof? All you have done is restate your opinion here, which I have shown is contrary to the teachings of the Church. I think you are confusing the Holy Ghost with the Light or Spirit of Christ. For more info on the Light of Christ check here.

D&C 130:23 man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

A person may be temporarily guided by the Holy Ghost without receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost However, this guidance will not be continuous unless the person is baptized and receives the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

“There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him. [See Acts 10:1–48.] Until he obeyed these ordinances and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, according to the order of God, he could not have healed the sick or commanded an evil spirit to come out of a man, and it obey him; for the spirits might say unto him, as they did to the sons of Sceva: ‘Paul we know and Jesus we know, but who are ye?’ [See Acts 19:13–15.]”15 (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 97).

[Mark]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now. Many here seem to be going down that road in their own personal lives. If you go to the new order mormon forum page you will see the many similarities of thought that have been present here for some time on this forum.Just part of the sifting process that will continue to occur in the church. Nothing new.. :ymsigh:


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[marc]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now. Many here seem to be going down that road in their own personal lives. If you go to the new order mormon forum page you will see the many similarities of thought that have been present here for some time on this forum.Just part of the sifting process that will continue to occur in the church. Nothing new.. :ymsigh:


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just checked out the link. What exactly is a "New Order Mormon"????

[Ben McClintock]

NOM's are unbelievers that stay for reasons that range from cowardice to wanting to effect change from within. Mostly the latter though.

[marc]

NOM's are unbelievers that stay for reasons that range from cowardice to wanting to effect change from within. Mostly the latter though.

Interesting. I quickly scanned all the forum threads there. Not a single discussion or mention of the Book of Mormon. Wait, yes...something called The Book of Mormon Girl. Well, no wonder. And no wonder the odd posts and answers here. Too many people trusting in the arm of flesh. I see the emptiness in their lives. Yes, President Monson is only human. But so was Isaiah, Zenos, Peter, James, John, Nephi, Jacob, Abinadi, Moroni, etc. No more words needed.