Like Pharisees?

[Thinker]

Through personal experiences, I have learned that putting blind trust in the arm of flesh is dangerous no matter their position. I specifically can relate this to those who are called to leadership positions in the church. As I grew in up in the Church, I was sure (taught) that these men would always be acting as the servant of the Lord and I would always be blessed for following.

The Lord can lead a servant of the Lord, but he will not remove agency and force them into perfection!! The Lord still gives men in authority agency, even prophets. Leaders can sometimes act under the guidance of the spirit in one thing and act on thier own in another (agency). When a servant is acting as such, the Lord will confirm this. The law of witnesses. Otherwise, all bets are off.

I have learned to allow the Holy Spirit to be my guide above all else. If the Lord chooses to use a servant to teach me or counsel me, the Spirit will always witness this. We do have the law of witnesses as a fail safe. I never am required to blindly trust a Bishop, Stake Pres, General, Prophet etc.... I know this goes against the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures that currently have become our culture. Seek the witness of truth; allow the Holy Ghost to be your guide in all things. The Spirit protects us from blind guides (as we trust in the arm of God).

Well put!

[Ben McClintock]

Coach

I'd suggest looking at that story again. He didn't recognize the authority from Noah. Alma received his authority right before he baptized himself. Noah was more of a area authority or stake pres. seeing as how later on, Alma went to Mosiah as his Priesthood head.

[karen2cruise]

From Robert D Hales
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... gnmein#17-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


....When a friend of President George Albert Smith asked him what he thought of his friend’s personal plan to take what would have been tithing and donate his tenth in charitable donations of his own choice, President Smith’s counsel was:

“I think you are a very generous man with someone else’s property. …

“… You have told me what you have done with the Lord’s money but you have not told me that you have given anyone a penny of your own. He is the best partner you have in the world. He gives you everything you have, even the air you breathe. He has said you should take one-tenth of what comes to you and give it to the Church as directed by the Lord. You haven’t done that; you have taken your best partner’s money, and have given it away.” 17

The tithing of the members of the Church belongs to the Lord. He decides, through a council of His servants, how it should be used.

To Church members and others throughout the world, I bear my testimony of the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes. I have sat on this council for 17 years, as the Presiding Bishop of the Church and now as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Without exception, the tithing funds of this Church have been used for His purposes......

[Thinker]

All I can do is reiterate that I feel you are on a dangerous path, Thinker. I very much appreciate that you want to reach out to the suffering. You can! We all can and should. But don't deny yourself the blessings you so clearly are.

Blessings... of being one of the many on anti-depressants in Utah, the state that is #1 in the nation for anti-depressant use (twice the nation!)???
Blessings... of getting into debt to pay tithing to imperfect human beings who secretly hide finances & use church funds for worldly pursuits???
Blessings... of being brainwashed to believe my worthiness depends on paying tithing to men, who rob from the poor? (Deut 14:28-29)

No thank you.
You can keep those blessings, if you choose to.

I know that the true temple is within me... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?"
I know that the experience of God (including my sense of worthiness) is within me... "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:20
I know that if I trust in God, who is love, I can't go wrong.
But If I trust in anything or anyone else... "all things will fail, except charity, the pure love of Christ."

[Thinker]

I find it amazing how we cannot tolerate anyone "breaking the rules". How we just know they are in the wrong. It is easy to sit back some 2500 years later and read about...say Nephi. We were not there with him. We do not feel the "heat of the moment", and judge him as we most likely would. No, we sit here safely in the present with perfect 20/20 hindsight and know that him murdering, stealing and kidnapping were the things the Lord wanted him to do. It is so easy for us to see now.

How do we know that thinker has not been led by the Lord to pay his tithing directly to the poor without going through the church? Because it is going against the order of things? Because it is breaking away from the norm? Because it makes us uncomfortable?

Clearly the Lord can command any person break His own rules. I just wonder who we are to determine whether or not that is the case. If we are honest we will see that we would have been very critical and judgemental of Nephi. We probably would have got involved and called the authorities and been quite smug when he was arrested.

Good points, thanks for sharing this.

[marc]

Coach

I'd suggest looking at that story again. He didn't recognize the authority from Noah. Alma received his authority right before he baptized himself. Noah was more of a area authority or stake pres. seeing as how later on, Alma went to Mosiah as his Priesthood head.

I have. It's in chapter 18. I see what you're saying, because of Mosiah 18:13, 17,18 etc, but I am sure that it came through a line of authority, having been consecrated by Noah as one of his priests and so he could further ordain priests (he ordained 1 for every 50 people). I have the authority, too, but only because of the line of authority through my father, but it is still the authority of God. I will look deeper into it, though. Thanks, Ben.

[reese]

Throughout the Old and New Testament, prophets of God were cast out or stoned to death, to name two. They were stoned to death, burned alive or cast out in the Book of Mormon. Today, people still "throw stones" at the prophets.

Come on coach. I don't think those who were actually stoned to death would be so willing to say the "stones still being thrown" at prophets today are quite the same. It is a bit of a unseemly to compare the two, don't you think.

Let's look at the church during King Noah's reign. His father, Zeniff, gave Noah the keys. What did Noah do? He put down his father's priests and consecrated his own and they engaged in all manner of sins, all the while, claiming to live the law of Moses. Sounds Pharisaical to me. But the Lord sent Abinadi to them. I won't go into the whole story here. In a nutshell, Alma ended up reorganizing the church as he had the authority to do it from Noah himself! And because of this, 450 people came to the Lord in baptism. Thereafter, his son Alma and the four sons of Mosiah coverted thousands along with Zeezrom who joined Alma and Amulek later and then Helaman and his son Nephi and his son Nephi, etc, converted thousands more. The Lord's work went forth still, and in great power, despite Noah's wickedness.

D&C 1

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

My point is, unless you are called by God as was Abinadi, it's not your place to suggest that those who were foreordained to be our leaders are Pharisees. If God sees fit to chasten our leaders, He will not do it through you or Flagg or Harmston or me. If you think it's your place to do so, then you might as well say you are greater than God, because obviously you know something that He doesn't.

Coach I know what you were saying. And I have no desire to chasten our leaders. I just don't think it is very fair to those who suffered a martyr's death, like Abinadi, to compare a small amount of criticism(comparatively speaking) to being stoned, burned, sawed in half, crucified, etc, etc. The sacrifices being made today in Christ's name are hardly the same.

[Thinker]

One day, I will stand before my Savior to be judged and I am living my life so that I can look Him in the eye and tell Him that I did my very best. I paid a full tithe, generous fast offering, I fasted and prayed often, attended the temple weekly, read the Book of Mormon at least a couple hundred times, helped everyone in need who's path I crossed and never left them hungry or in need. I will not have to worry about what His church leaders did with the money because I was obedient to His laws because I love Him.

"He who loveth not, knoweth not God, for God is love." -1John 4:8
You can do all kinds of things, even move mountains, but if you don't have charity, you are NOTHING.
I know, as much as I can know anything, that what matters most, when it comes to "judgement" is how much we loved others as ourselves.
Jesus taught that the 2 greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves...
"on these 2 commandments, hang all the laws and the prophets." -Matt 22:40
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me...
Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me." -Matt 25:40,45

It is a trategy that we have grown accustomed to ignoring tens of thousand deaths each day...
It is sad that it is not on the news that more than 20,000 men, women & children died today... "8,000 children dead of malaria, 5,000 mothers and fathers dead of tuberculosis, 7,500 young adults dead of AIDS & thousands more dead of diarrhea, respiratory infection, & other killer diseases that prey on bodies weakened by chronic hunger." -Jeffrey D. Sachs

...people who are hungering for the truth and needing to be healed by the Savior.

Did the good Samaritan preach his religion to the dying man, or did he show compassion & help him?
There is an ongoing emergency similar to that of the man who the dying man the good Samaritan helped... & Jesus taught us to "go and do likewises."

"It has always been the disposition of the true disciples of Christ, as they reached higher degrees of spirituality, to look after the needy." -J. Richard Clarke

"Welfare service is nothing more nor less than the gospel in action." -Spencer W. Kimbpall

If we neglect those who are in need & who 1/3 of tithes are entitled (Deut 14:28-29), we will condemn ourselves for our lack of love.

[marc]

Coach I know what you were saying. And I have no desire to chasten our leaders. I just don't think it is very fair to those who suffered a martyr's death, like Abinadi, to compare a small amount of critisim(comparatively speaking) to being stoned, burned, sawed in half, crucified, etc, etc. The sacrifices being made today in Christ's name are hardly the same.

Point taken. Still, criticism puts one's feet on a dangerous path and a slippery slope. Follow it through to conclusion.

[Thinker]

Point taken. Still, criticism puts one's feet on a dangerous path and a slippery slope. Follow it through to conclusion.

Yeah, Jesus criticized the Pharisees and look what happened to him.

[marc]

Thinker, thank you. Your quotes and scriptures support what I have been doing in my life in trying to emulate my Savior. Perhaps you know me better than you lead on.

[ChelC]

From Robert D Hales
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... gnmein#17-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


....When a friend of President George Albert Smith asked him what he thought of his friend’s personal plan to take what would have been tithing and donate his tenth in charitable donations of his own choice, President Smith’s counsel was:

“I think you are a very generous man with someone else’s property. …

“… You have told me what you have done with the Lord’s money but you have not told me that you have given anyone a penny of your own. He is the best partner you have in the world. He gives you everything you have, even the air you breathe. He has said you should take one-tenth of what comes to you and give it to the Church as directed by the Lord. You haven’t done that; you have taken your best partner’s money, and have given it away.” 17

The tithing of the members of the Church belongs to the Lord. He decides, through a council of His servants, how it should be used.

To Church members and others throughout the world, I bear my testimony of the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes. I have sat on this council for 17 years, as the Presiding Bishop of the Church and now as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Without exception, the tithing funds of this Church have been used for His purposes......

Thank you.

[ChelC]

All I can do is reiterate that I feel you are on a dangerous path, Thinker. I very much appreciate that you want to reach out to the suffering. You can! We all can and should. But don't deny yourself the blessings you so clearly are.

Blessings... of being one of the many on anti-depressants in Utah, the state that is #1 in the nation for anti-depressant use (twice the nation!)???
Blessings... of getting into debt to pay tithing to imperfect human beings who secretly hide finances & use church funds for worldly pursuits???
Blessings... of being brainwashed to believe my worthiness depends on paying tithing to men, who rob from the poor? (Deut 14:28-29)

No thank you.
You can keep those blessings, if you choose to.

I know that the true temple is within me... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?"
I know that the experience of God (including my sense of worthiness) is within me... "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:20
I know that if I trust in God, who is love, I can't go wrong.
But If I trust in anything or anyone else... "all things will fail, except charity, the pure love of Christ."

You are so crass toward the church that I don't think there is even a point in trying to share from my heart with you, but when you hit bottom and I truly fear you will, I hope you will have the fog lifted and realize how it happened.

[AussieOi]

To Church members and others throughout the world, I bear my testimony of the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes. I have sat on this council for 17 years, as the Presiding Bishop of the Church and now as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Without exception, the tithing funds of this Church have been used for His purposes.....


this being the case.....um, what harm is it to show the members where their hard earned dollars are going and what good it is achieving

if its good enough to pat ourselves on the back over a shopping centre there remains no reason not to

[awake]

From Robert D Hales
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... gnmein#17-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


....When a friend of President George Albert Smith asked him what he thought of his friend’s personal plan to take what would have been tithing and donate his tenth in charitable donations of his own choice, President Smith’s counsel was:

“I think you are a very generous man with someone else’s property. …

“… You have told me what you have done with the Lord’s money but you have not told me that you have given anyone a penny of your own. He is the best partner you have in the world. He gives you everything you have, even the air you breathe. He has said you should take one-tenth of what comes to you and give it to the Church as directed by the Lord. You haven’t done that; you have taken your best partner’s money, and have given it away.” 17

The tithing of the members of the Church belongs to the Lord. He decides, through a council of His servants, how it should be used.

To Church members and others throughout the world, I bear my testimony of the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes. I have sat on this council for 17 years, as the Presiding Bishop of the Church and now as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Without exception, the tithing funds of this Church have been used for His purposes......

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

I'm not suggesting that any leaders aren't righteous, I'm just saying that that's the principle we are to live by. For some seem to be advocating that we pay our tithes and offerings 'unquestioningly'.

If we believe that our Bishop is neglecting the widows and the fatherless in the ward, then it is possible that the Lord may instruct us to give our money directly to them.

We must have an open mind about these things and not believe in blind obedience, but instead live by the Spirit and what we know is right.

[Ben McClintock]

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

Really? Where is this taught?

[Mark]

All I can do is reiterate that I feel you are on a dangerous path, Thinker. I very much appreciate that you want to reach out to the suffering. You can! We all can and should. But don't deny yourself the blessings you so clearly are.

Blessings... of being one of the many on anti-depressants in Utah, the state that is #1 in the nation for anti-depressant use (twice the nation!)???
Blessings... of getting into debt to pay tithing to imperfect human beings who secretly hide finances & use church funds for worldly pursuits???
Blessings... of being brainwashed to believe my worthiness depends on paying tithing to men, who rob from the poor? (Deut 14:28-29)

No thank you.
You can keep those blessings, if you choose to.

I know that the true temple is within me... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?"
I know that the experience of God (including my sense of worthiness) is within me... "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:20
I know that if I trust in God, who is love, I can't go wrong.
But If I trust in anything or anyone else... "all things will fail, except charity, the pure love of Christ."

You are so crass toward the church that I don't think there is even a point in trying to share from my heart with you, but when you hit bottom and I truly fear you will, I hope you will have the fog lifted and realize how it happened.

Good perception ChelC. I hope that as well for this individual. Rock bottom is a lonely place to be without the spirit of the Lord.

[awake]

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

Really? Where is this taught?

We have been taught that if leaders teach or act unrighteously and thus lose their power, authority and right to lead, then it's also 'amen' to our obligation to support them, for it is not even safe, let alone wise.

We are only obligated to follow and only should follow 'righteous' leaders and the burden and responsibility is on us to be able to discern and determine if a leader is righteous or not.

For we will come under condemnation for following unrighteous leaders or teachings.

We must be able to back up everyone we believe in and support and everything we do by what the holy scriptures say.

"If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches..."
Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, 5:490-491, April 1, 1844.

"My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we mearsure every man's doctrine."
Joseph Fielding Smith

"Whenever you find any doctrine, any idea, any expression from any source whatsoever that is in conflict with that which the Lord has revealed and which is found in the holy scriptures, you may be assured that it is false and you should put is aside and stand firmly grounded in the truth in prayer and in faith, relying upon the Spirit of the Lord."
Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, CR Apr. 1917, 59-60, 64.

"If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is specualtion, man's own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth."
Harold B. Lee

"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them, even if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extremes notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves."
Apostle Samuel Richards, Millennial Star, Nov. 13, 1852.

"You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204.

[Ben McClintock]

i don't want perfection in my leaders as it seems you are implying. As Joseph Smith said, we should put a cloak of charity over their sins, so one can be placed over mine http://books.google.com/books?id=q4zqk3 ... 22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and that is also found in the scriptures http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-pet/4.8?lang=eng#7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is important that they are who they claim to be though, otherwise, we are likely to be deceived
http://books.google.com/books?id=q4zqk3 ... 22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[awake]

i don't want perfection in my leaders as it seems you are implying.

I'm not expecting perfection either, just a high enough level of righteousness that we can have trust in them and know that they are leading us correctly and doing their duty.

[EmmaLee]

My point is, unless you are called by God as was Abinadi, it's not your place to suggest that those who were foreordained to be our leaders are Pharisees.

I'm curious, if you, or any of us, were just regular folks in the Church living at this time of history in the BOM - how would we have known Abinadi was called by God?

(P.S. I know the answer; this is more of a rhetorical question )

[marc]

My point is, unless you are called by God as was Abinadi, it's not your place to suggest that those who were foreordained to be our leaders are Pharisees.

I'm curious, if you, or any of us, were just regular folks in the Church living at this time of history in the BOM - how would we have known Abinadi was called by God?

(P.S. I know the answer; this is more of a rhetorical question )

Now ask yourself, after having searched the brass plates and studied the Law of Moses, Isaiah, etc, the voice of the Lord came to you and called you to preach repentance! I think I would soil my britches. @-)

p.s. I know the brass plates were back in Zarahemla. Obviously Abinadi had scrolls or some type of paper with the scriptures on them...

[karen2cruise]

If we believe that our Bishop is neglecting the widows and the fatherless in the ward, then it is possible that the Lord may instruct us to give our money directly to them.
.

Dear Awake,

If I felt someone in the ward ( of which the bishop is responsible for everyone in the ward's boundaries, lds and non-lds) was being neglected I would not be afraid to approach the Bishop or the Relief Society President or High Priest/Elders Quorums heads and ask if we could help them. We have a wonderful ward and Stake and I see no neglect. There is lots of service, food and sometimes monetary assistance given (which is done by the bishop very discreetly, as it should be). We take dinner into for people all the time, and occaissionally anonymously gift cards to grocery stores. We have on occasion even contributed to someone else's missionary fund. Never would I even consider "well let's see.....I spent $100-400 in serving others so I am deducting that from my tithing due this month" :ymsigh: I am bemused by your thoughts.

[EmmaLee]

My point is, unless you are called by God as was Abinadi, it's not your place to suggest that those who were foreordained to be our leaders are Pharisees.

I'm curious, if you, or any of us, were just regular folks in the Church living at this time of history in the BOM - how would we have known Abinadi was called by God?

(P.S. I know the answer; this is more of a rhetorical question )

Now ask yourself, after having searched the brass plates and studied the Law of Moses, Isaiah, etc, the voice of the Lord came to you and called you to preach repentance! I think I would soil my britches. @-)

As would I! But what I'm asking is how did OTHER people living at that time and in that place - regular members of the Church - how did THEY know Abinadi was called by God? He came out of nowhere; he wasn't a leader in their Church; he was a stranger to them - so how did any of THEM know he was called by God?

[Jerry J Fletcher]

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

Really? Where is this taught?

To the best of my knowledge - nowhere. Christ had the perfect opportunity to lay that foundation in the parable of the widow's might yet chose not to do so.