Like Pharisees?

[jonesde]

I do wish I had realized more about this // organization -- the family -- and its great opportunity and power against unrighteous dominion, years ago. Now I feel that --
when one member of the family is under attack, all members of the family are under attack.
Further -- I am resolved that I will do what I can to defend my family against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I also wish I realized more about this before.
Yes, we've been told that as members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST, ALL mankind are sons & daughters of a Heavenly Father and Mother, therefore we are all brothers & sisters. In essence the entire world is not only related if you take genealogy back far enough, but more importantly, we are spiritually related & are a big family.

When any of the family is under attack, all members of the family are under attack.
I am resolved that I will do what I can to defend my family against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
This includes defending our almost 1,000,000,000 brothers and sisters who are starving, tens of thousands will have died today, of preventable causes. 1/3 of tithes are to be for the poor, as explained in Deut 14:28-29. Some of our family are being robbed of tithes & as their family, I feel obligated to stand up for them...

"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor & needy." -Proverbs 31:8-9

That's an impressive goal. What sorts of things are you doing to work toward this? I wouldn't even know where to begin to stand up for or help the 1 billion starving people in the world, especially since that usually involved some sort of forceful oppression since starving people naturally to tend to find or produce food if they are allowed.

Any thoughts on specific things to do would be interesting.

[laronius]

Jonesde,
It sounds like what you need is to experience true repentance. I don't say that in the sense that I feel you have great sins to repent of, but rather the process of changing ones life views and coming to see things as God does, which is something we all need to have happen to us. We all have experiences that seem to jade us and can alter how we see things. In your case, it sounds like you have had more than your share. But the key is to recognize things for what they are. Job in the Old Testament is a perfect example of this. Life was anything but fair to him. But he was able to take an eternal perspective on things and not let his trials get the better of him. Repentance is much much more than saying sorry for our sins. Its mostly about recognizing the power of the atonement and the healing it can bring into our lives and the power it gives us to work through our trials. As we apply it in our lives, the Lord blesses us with a peace that cannot come any other way.

[Thinker]

Laronius,
As a parent, I fully realize that love is not always fuzzy & warm.
Love is God... & love is striving for what is best, through trial & error (active faith).
Christ taught to care for others, not preach to them our version of redemption.
Otherwise, the parable of the good Samaritan would have included missionary pamphlets or the like.

[Thinker]

Hi bud, Jesus and his anointed have also told us time after time not to speak ill of the anointed...

Tell that to those on this forum who have called me names for standing up for teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am one of the annointed, since I've been through the temple.
But even for those who haven't paid their tithing to the LDS church & gone through the LDS temples...
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me." -Matt 25:40

take a chill pill, and learn patience, lest your lack of patience ( your answers will come latter in life or in next)

How would you like someone to tell you that when you are dying of neglect, & when you are being robbed of tithes? I am speaking up for our brothers & sisters, almost 1 billion, who are starving, tens of thousands who have or will die today.

Question, what are YOU doing to change the world and rid it of hunger? what am I?

I am doing what I feel inspired to do in various capacities. I recently stopped paying tithes to the church leaders, who keep it dark & who don't share any tithes with the poor.
I now share tithes directly with the poor & am also working toward other related goals.

and even if we could get rid of it.... would that truly save people?

Did the man left for dead complain that the good Samaritan didn't save him enough?

Sadly the more stubborn we become about this issue, the more we criticize our leadership, the more priesthood power we loose.

The more stubborn you are in worshiping other gods before God, the more priesthood power you lose.
The more you place corrupt demands before the 2 greatest commandments, the more priesthood power you lose.
Please, think & pray about what kind of leader Jesus was and about what is truly of God, who is love.

[Thinker]

That's an impressive goal. What sorts of things are you doing to work toward this? I wouldn't even know where to begin to stand up for or help the 1 billion starving people in the world, especially since that usually involved some sort of forceful oppression since starving people naturally to tend to find or produce food if they are allowed.

Any thoughts on specific things to do would be interesting.

Apparently you did not read my post about corruption & oppression through foreign debt & bullying for resources? I already explained this. If you want more info here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oARBdBtGenM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not naive enough to believe I can single handedly cure hunger of 1,000,000,000 people.
This is why I'm sharing on this forum. Many hands make light work.
I'm doing what I can do... sending my tithes directly to help those in need in a financially transparent way.
I'm also educating myself gradually, about the causes of poverty, especially in a country I've repeatedly visited & how I can help. I have specific goals for a specific area & need. I can't do it all. But I can do some, & if we all do what we can, A LOT will be accomplished!
Some things are simple as John Perkins (in that link above) suggests:
1. Cut back on your oil consumption.
2. Shop less... instead of shopping out of boredom/thrill, read, exercise, meditate.
3. Downsize your home, wardrobe, car, office, most everything.
4. Protest against 'free trade' agreements & against companies that exploit desperate people in sweatshops or that pillage the environment.
5. Spread the word through forums like this, family & friends.

Then of course, tithing is supposed to go to the poor - at least 1/3 according to Deut. 14:28-29.
Currently, not a penny of LDS tithes go to the poor.
Religion... "legions" "many" can be powerful agents for good, when we study it out & pray how best to love our neighbors - both near & far.

[laronius]

Laronius,
As a parent, I fully realize that love is not always fuzzy & warm.
Love is God... & love is striving for what is best, through trial & error (active faith).
Christ taught to care for others, not preach to them our version of redemption.
Otherwise, the parable of the good Samaritan would have included missionary pamphlets or the like.

Your right, Christ did not say for us to preach "our" version of redemption, but HIs. He established His church and sent His apostles into all the world to preach His gospel of faith, repentance, and baptism. One Lord, One faith, One Baptism.

[BroJones]

As you sort through these things jonesde, this strikes me as important:

I really didn't feel right about taking the prozac and was concerned it would cause more harm than good, and the thing about blacking out really disturbed me because I didn't see how that would be caused by a psychological anxiety disorder. After a few days of taking the prozac and doing a lot of scripture study and prayer, I decided to stop and go home to get better instead. This was met with pretty severe judgment and encouraging me to do otherwise by the mission President and other elders....

After arriving home I visited our family doctor and he immediately recommended a glucose tolerance test. The test result was that I had a problem with low blood sugar, and he theorized that with the lifestyle and diet I was under on my mission that the blackouts were actually severely low blood sugar. Prozac actually has a destabilizing effect on blood sugar, so that could have made the problem worse.

In other words, had I followed the counsel of the Mission President and Area President, it could have killed me.

You also noted that your parents opposed taking of Prozac; so that's important, too, as inspiration through parents for the children in their stewardship is recognized by the Lord.

Good that you used prayer and scripture study also as you came to the conclusion to avoid Prozac and to get better at home.

Joseph Smith said:

"We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything
they were told to do by those who preside over them even if they knew it was wrong;
but such obedience is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the
man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among
intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the
idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that
such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by
their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will
so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it
is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves." (Millenial
Star, Volume 14, No. 38, Pages 593-595) 

 

 "What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you
afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their
leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him.
I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal
destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would
thwart the purposes of God in their salvation..." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 9:150. Also quoted in
Ezra Taft Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p.294.)

I think you did the right thing. To suppose that Prozac makes one "dumb and happy" or makes one more "righteous" are erroneous assumptions, IMO.

[BroJones]

Regarding revelation and inspiration, I like to record in my journal "Things I'm SURE of" -- and I do this.

Usually comes over process of time with pondering, scriptures and prayer.

Some things I'm sure of (for myself):

1. The Book of Mormon is true; and is my basic guide in life. Of course, I look to other scriptures as well.

2. Love for others is key to happiness and drawing close to the Lord. John correctly noted, "Love casts out fear."

3. I don't trust gov't much. I do pay income taxes. Just that my income is low so my taxes are low also.

4. My health is MY responsibility; not doctors' responsibility. Exercise does wonders mentally and physically -- better than anti-depressants for sure.

5. There exists a freedom-threatening secret combination and there is a woe pronounced on those "who built it up", Ether 8, so I try hard to identify and to avoid building up the "evil schemers" as Pres. Hinckley also warned us (Ensign Aug 2005).

6. I pay tithing; I attend Church and the temple; I meet with family fairly often in scripture study and prayer and counsel. I believe the Family Order is eternal and the "scaffolding" of the Church (Pres. Harold B. Lee's term) is temporary.

7. I believe in "preparing every needful thing" including food and water stores and arms; that doesn't mean that everything has to be stored at one location.

[laronius]

Everything we know, as it pertains to God's plan for us, comes by revelation: either to us personally or to those under whose stewardship we fall. Now, the Lord has never said we have to blindly follow the revelation of those over us. In fact he has said just the opposite. But it thus becomes incumbent upon us to gain that revelation for ourselves. But so far everything I have heard anywhere on this forum when it come to those not liking what our leaders have to say, not once have I heard someone say they have done that. Instead they use their own reasoning or quote scripture, which is merely saying you favor one prophet over another.

I don't say this in condemnation of anyone but merely to point out if you havent followed that pattern of revelation, no amount of debate will change your mind (because that is not how testimony is gained). And if you have followed that pattern, no amount of debate can change your mind. But unless we have followed that pattern we really have no right to comment on anything.

[Mark]

Hi bud, Jesus and his anointed have also told us time after time not to speak ill of the anointed...

Tell that to those on this forum who have called me names for standing up for teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am one of the annointed, since I've been through the temple.
But even for those who haven't paid their tithing to the LDS church & gone through the LDS temples...
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me." -Matt 25:40

take a chill pill, and learn patience, lest your lack of patience ( your answers will come latter in life or in next)

How would you like someone to tell you that when you are dying of neglect, & when you are being robbed of tithes? I am speaking up for our brothers & sisters, almost 1 billion, who are starving, tens of thousands who have or will die today.

Question, what are YOU doing to change the world and rid it of hunger? what am I?

I am doing what I feel inspired to do in various capacities. I recently stopped paying tithes to the church leaders, who keep it dark & who don't share any tithes with the poor.
I now share tithes directly with the poor & am also working toward other related goals.

and even if we could get rid of it.... would that truly save people?

Did the man left for dead complain that the good Samaritan didn't save him enough?

Sadly the more stubborn we become about this issue, the more we criticize our leadership, the more priesthood power we loose.

The more stubborn you are in worshiping other gods before God, the more priesthood power you lose.
The more you place corrupt demands before the 2 greatest commandments, the more priesthood power you lose.
Please, think & pray about what kind of leader Jesus was and about what is truly of God, who is love.

Good grief. You attend the temple yet refuse to pay your tithing to the church? You sir are so far gone that I am amazed anyone in their right mind would listen to a word you had to say about the church. Unbelievable. This is who you have aligned yourself with Col? Good luck with that.

[patriotsaint]

Well, I don't see you quoting any scripture. You just attack thinker, and when people like that say things that are "out of line" you go running under the mantle of "a prophet a prophet, we have a prophet" without any scriptures at all.

The scriptures are the keystone of our religion, I suggest we start using them.

You are new to the forum obviously, so you should check out a few more threads. Mark, myself and others have quoted pages of scripture to Thinker. The problem is that he/she will simply ignore the scriptures that don't fit his/her paradigm, and use a few scriptures outside the entire context of the standard works to "prove" his/her point.

When thinker and his/her clique are ready to consider all the scriptures, you will see a more meaningful discussion.

[Zkulptor]

Hi bud, Jesus and his anointed have also told us time after time not to speak ill of the anointed...

Tell that to those on this forum who have called me names for standing up for teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am one of the annointed, since I've been through the temple.
But even for those who haven't paid their tithing to the LDS church & gone through the LDS temples...
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me." -Matt 25:40

take a chill pill, and learn patience, lest your lack of patience ( your answers will come latter in life or in next)

How would you like someone to tell you that when you are dying of neglect, & when you are being robbed of tithes? I am speaking up for our brothers & sisters, almost 1 billion, who are starving, tens of thousands who have or will die today.

Question, what are YOU doing to change the world and rid it of hunger? what am I?

I am doing what I feel inspired to do in various capacities. I recently stopped paying tithes to the church leaders, who keep it dark & who don't share any tithes with the poor.
I now share tithes directly with the poor & am also working toward other related goals.

and even if we could get rid of it.... would that truly save people?

Did the man left for dead complain that the good Samaritan didn't save him enough?

Sadly the more stubborn we become about this issue, the more we criticize our leadership, the more priesthood power we loose.

The more stubborn you are in worshiping other gods before God, the more priesthood power you lose.
The more you place corrupt demands before the 2 greatest commandments, the more priesthood power you lose.
Please, think & pray about what kind of leader Jesus was and about what is truly of God, who is love.

You completely lost me at " I recently stopped paying tithes to the church leaders, who keep it dark & who don't share any tithes with the poor" I am afraid you do not understand the doctrine nor wish to be taught, any comments I or anyone here makes in order to enlighten you.... will be futile I am afraid.

Good luck to you brother, God bless you... may one day you will be humble enough to realize what you are doing goes against God himself.... for the natural man... etc etc....

[kathedralegs]

Thinker,
I can appreciate your emphasis on love as the motivating factor in all that we do. Indeed it should be. But the way you speak of it it comes off as: Hang all the law and the prophets, all you need is love. Sounds like something from the 60s. But Christ taught that love was much more than clothing the naked and feeding the hungary. This life is so very temporary. The eternities await us and the care we give to the soul/spirit is just as important as the care we give for our bodies, which is the tabernacle of our spirits. Christ taught us that if we don't repent and be baptised we will be damned. Humanitarian efforts, as good as they are, will not save us if we reject the laws and the prophets. The terrestrial kingdom was made for such people.

Laronius brings up an excellent point. Thinker....any response?

[Thinker]

Laronius brings up an excellent point. Thinker....any response?

Already responded on page 1.


Zkulptor,
You are assuming church leaders to be God.
They are not.
Don't you realize that?
They are human beings, imperfect human beings, like you & me.
Our church is NOT called, "The church of prophets and apostles of latter days saints."
Our church is called: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

There is a reason why we are commanded:
THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
And that all things will fail, except charity, which is the pure love of Christ.
God is love. 1John 4:8
Jesus commanded the 2 greatest commandments are to love God (as we love others, we love God) & to love others as ourselves...
"on these 2 commandments hang all the laws and the prophets." -Matt 22:40

[patriotsaint]

Laronius brings up an excellent point. Thinker....any response?

Already responded on page 1.


Zkulptor,
You are assuming church leaders to be God.
They are not.
Don't you realize that?
They are human beings, imperfect human beings, like you & me.
Our church is NOT called, "The church of prophets and apostles of latter days saints."
Our church is called: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

There is a reason why we are commanded:
THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
And that all things will fail, except charity, which is the pure love of Christ.
God is love. 1John 4:8
Jesus commanded the 2 greatest commandments are to love God (as we love others, we love God) & to love others as ourselves...
"on these 2 commandments hang all the laws and the prophets." -Matt 22:40

You've lost your way. The scriptures plainly teach the role prophets are to play in the Church, and yes.....we are to listen to them

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. (D&C 132:8)

And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest (D&C 124:45-46)

Or if you'd rather hear the words of a modern prophet:

No, in matters of discipleship the Church is not a fast-food outlet; we can’t always have it “our way.” --Jeffery R Holland

[Squally]

Through personal experiences, I have learned that putting blind trust in the arm of flesh is dangerous no matter their position. I specifically can relate this to those who are called to leadership positions in the church. As I grew in up in the Church, I was sure (taught) that these men would always be acting as the servant of the Lord and I would always be blessed for following.

The Lord can lead a servant of the Lord, but he will not remove agency and force them into perfection!! The Lord still gives men in authority agency, even prophets. Leaders can sometimes act under the guidance of the spirit in one thing and act on thier own in another (agency). When a servant is acting as such, the Lord will confirm this. The law of witnesses. Otherwise, all bets are off.

I have learned to allow the Holy Spirit to be my guide above all else. If the Lord chooses to use a servant to teach me or counsel me, the Spirit will always witness this. We do have the law of witnesses as a fail safe. I never am required to blindly trust a Bishop, Stake Pres, General, Prophet etc.... I know this goes against the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures that currently have become our culture. Seek the witness of truth; allow the Holy Ghost to be your guide in all things. The Spirit protects us from blind guides (as we trust in the arm of God).

[Mark]

Laronius brings up an excellent point. Thinker....any response?

Already responded on page 1.


Zkulptor,
You are assuming church leaders to be God.
They are not.
Don't you realize that?
They are human beings, imperfect human beings, like you & me.
Our church is NOT called, "The church of prophets and apostles of latter days saints."
Our church is called: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

There is a reason why we are commanded:
THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
And that all things will fail, except charity, which is the pure love of Christ.
God is love. 1John 4:8
Jesus commanded the 2 greatest commandments are to love God (as we love others, we love God) & to love others as ourselves...
"on these 2 commandments hang all the laws and the prophets." -Matt 22:40

I just want to point out that I have heard this type of argument used over and over again by those who have fallen away from the church and pursued another path in their lives. It is such a red herring strawman argument to equate one showing respect and honor for the calling of the Lords Prophets with following other Gods. 8-|

Just go to any anti-mormon site and you will hear one after another individual justify their rebellion against the church this way. Go talk to the members of the true and living church out of Manti. Go visit Sterling Allens site on the web. I could go on and on.

These disillusioned individuals mock the prophets and then mock those who believe that these prophets are in fact inspired servants of the Lord doing his work here in mortality. They diminish the role of a prophet and say that all they care about is love and charity. Yet in their condemnation of these prophets they show very little charity but instead an abundance of pride and disrespect to the Lords annointed Prophets.

Thinker has swallowed the kool-aid as is plain to see in his attitudes towards the church and its inspired leadership. Any who follow his pathway better understand exactly where they are headed. It is a road filled with sorrow and heartache.

The reason I point this out is because I hate to see folks go down this road. I have seen those sorrows first hand that occur if one does not repent of this attitude. The adversary celebrates when a person begins to speak unflattering things publicly against the church and its Prophets. He knows that it is only a matter of time until they become consumed in these negative attitudes that soon will lead them away from the light of the gospel and the Lords church. As Elder Uchtdorf said in conference STOP IT! For your own spiritual good.

[ChelC]

All I can do is reiterate that I feel you are on a dangerous path, Thinker. I very much appreciate that you want to reach out to the suffering. You can! We all can and should. But don't deny yourself the blessings you so clearly are.

[reese]

Hi bud, Jesus and his anointed have also told us time after time not to speak ill of the anointed...

Tell that to those on this forum who have called me names for standing up for teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am one of the annointed, since I've been through the temple.
But even for those who haven't paid their tithing to the LDS church & gone through the LDS temples...
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me." -Matt 25:40

take a chill pill, and learn patience, lest your lack of patience ( your answers will come latter in life or in next)

How would you like someone to tell you that when you are dying of neglect, & when you are being robbed of tithes? I am speaking up for our brothers & sisters, almost 1 billion, who are starving, tens of thousands who have or will die today.

Question, what are YOU doing to change the world and rid it of hunger? what am I?

I am doing what I feel inspired to do in various capacities. I recently stopped paying tithes to the church leaders, who keep it dark & who don't share any tithes with the poor.
I now share tithes directly with the poor & am also working toward other related goals.

and even if we could get rid of it.... would that truly save people?

Did the man left for dead complain that the good Samaritan didn't save him enough?

Sadly the more stubborn we become about this issue, the more we criticize our leadership, the more priesthood power we loose.

The more stubborn you are in worshiping other gods before God, the more priesthood power you lose.
The more you place corrupt demands before the 2 greatest commandments, the more priesthood power you lose.
Please, think & pray about what kind of leader Jesus was and about what is truly of God, who is love.

Good grief. You attend the temple yet refuse to pay your tithing to the church? You sir are so far gone that I am amazed anyone in their right mind would listen to a word you had to say about the church. Unbelievable. This is who you have aligned yourself with Col? Good luck with that.

I find it amazing how we cannot tolerate anyone "breaking the rules". How we just know they are in the wrong. It is easy to sit back some 2500 years later and read about...say Nephi. We were not there with him. We do not feel the "heat of the moment", and judge him as we most likely would. No, we sit here safely in the present with perfect 20/20 hindsight and know that him murdering, stealing and kidnapping were the things the Lord wanted him to do. It is so easy for us to see now.

How do we know that thinker has not been led by the Lord to pay his tithing directly to the poor without going through the church? Because it is going against the order of things? Because it is breaking away from the norm? Because it makes us uncomfortable?

Clearly the Lord can command any person break His own rules. I just wonder who we are to determine whether or not that is the case. If we are honest we will see that we would have been very critical and judgemental of Nephi. We probably would have got involved and called the authorities and been quite smug when he was arrested.

[Ben McClintock]

D&C 1: 14 & 16 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; …They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

D&C 1:38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mind own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

“Obedience is the first law of Heaven. Without it neither the earth nor those who dwell upon it could be controlled. The angels in heaven would not be controlled without it, and in fact without obedience there could be no union or order, and chaos and confusion would prevail. When we are obedient we may be guided to the accomplishment of all that is required of us by our heavenly Father, for it is on this principle that the designs and purposes of God are accomplished.” Joseph F. Smith JD:16:248

This is why, “It is necessary to know who holds the keys of power, and who does not, or we may be likely to be deceived.” TPJS 336

[marc]

One day, I will stand before my Savior to be judged and I am living my life so that I can look Him in the eye and tell Him that I did my very best. I paid a full tithe, generous fast offering, I fasted and prayed often, attended the temple weekly, read the Book of Mormon at least a couple hundred times, helped everyone in need who's path I crossed and never left them hungry or in need. I will not have to worry about what His church leaders did with the money because I was obedient to His laws because I love Him. I have learned what it means to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. I try to keep myself in check every hour of the day. And pointing fingers isn't part of it. But I won't have to worry about that when I stand to be judged.

There is no reason why anyone can't have the same. It's just a matter of attitude. I'm not sure why I posted all this. I guess it's because there are so many people who are hungering for the truth and needing to be healed by the Savior. And perhaps they're coming to this message board to find it. Then they find threads like this. And maybe they will find that while there are some who would rather spend all their energy pointing fingers, there are still a few who stick around to say that no matter what they read, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true and living church on the face of the Earth, led by living prophets and apostles. They are indeed fallible as were the prophets of the Book of Mormon (Read Nephi 4!!) and the Bible. But they were still prophets of the Lord. There were Pharisees, but there was also everyone else. Throughout the Old and New Testament, prophets of God were cast out or stoned to death, to name two. They were stoned to death, burned alive or cast out in the Book of Mormon. Today, people still "throw stones" at the prophets.

And if by some oddity of chance the prophets bent their will to these stone throwers, well, these stone throwers would just find other faults. The problem is they don't see the world as it is. They see the world as they are. They are unhappy and rather than looking inside and cleaning the inward vessel and finding happiness, they look for a scapegoat. And they throw their stones until there's nothing of their foundation left of which to pick off their stones.

[Mark]

I find it amazing how we cannot tolerate anyone "breaking the rules". How we just know they are in the wrong. It is easy to sit back some 2500 years later and read about...say Nephi. We were not there with him. We do not feel the "heat of the moment", and judge him as we most likely would. No, we sit here safely in the present with perfect 20/20 hindsight and know that him murdering, stealing and kidnapping were the things the Lord wanted him to do. It is so easy for us to see now.

How do we know that thinker has not been led by the Lord to pay his tithing directly to the poor without going through the church? Because it is going against the order of things? Because it is breaking away from the norm? Because it makes us uncomfortable?

Clearly the Lord can command any person break His own rules. I just wonder who we are to determine whether or not that is the case. If we are honest we will see that we would have been very critical and judgemental of Nephi. We probably would have got involved and called the authorities and been quite smug when he was arrested.

That is classic reese. ) Maybe the Lord can tell you to take your neighbors wife for your own as well Bro. After all rules are made to be broken as long as the Lord tells you to do something different than the norm. Right? Seriously we are getting into the ridiculous here.

Yet the sad thing is every person who has fallen away from the church has used this argument to justify their sins and pride to "go against the order of things". The Lord told them to do it!

Go talk to Jim Harmston in Manti. He is sure the Lord told him to do what he did in starting his own church. It is as if you guys don't even realize that the adversary loves to to give one all kinds of false revelations. Thats why he gives us the living Oracles and the scriptures and the gift of the Holy Ghost acting as a three legged stool to keep us balanced and safe from deception and false revelation.

[reese]

Throughout the Old and New Testament, prophets of God were cast out or stoned to death, to name two. They were stoned to death, burned alive or cast out in the Book of Mormon. Today, people still "throw stones" at the prophets.

Come on coach. I don't think those who were actually stoned to death would be so willing to say the "stones still being thrown" at prophets today are quite the same. It is a bit unseemly to compare the two, don't you think.

[reese]

That is classic reese. ) Maybe the Lord can tell you to take your neighbors wife for your own as well Bro. After all rules are made to be broken as long as the Lord tells you to do something different than the norm. Right? Seriously we are getting into the ridiculous here.

Yet the sad thing is every person who has fallen away from the church has used this argument to justify their sins and pride to "go against the order of things". The Lord told them to do it!

Go talk to Jim Harmston in Manti. He is sure the Lord told him to do what he did in starting his own church. It is as if you guys don't even realize that the adversary loves to to give one all kinds of false revelations. Thats why he gives us the living Oracles and the scriptures and the gift of the Holy Ghost acting as a three legged stool to keep us balanced and safe from deception and false revelation.

Dude! When are you going to get it that I am not a guy. My neighbors wife will NEVER be an issue for me.

And this is the real kicker isn't it. Everything you said above is true. And yet the Lord has clearly acted outside of the "rules" since the beginning. I guess the real test is knowing which is which. It is not an accident that the Lord says the wise have taken the holy spirit for their guide and have not been decieved. Our only hope is to do just that. I think we should at least be open to the Lord working in ways that we don't expect or even accept. That is what he has always done. I don't know why we seem to think we will not be put through the same tests.

[marc]

Throughout the Old and New Testament, prophets of God were cast out or stoned to death, to name two. They were stoned to death, burned alive or cast out in the Book of Mormon. Today, people still "throw stones" at the prophets.

Come on coach. I don't think those who were actually stoned to death would be so willing to say the "stones still being thrown" at prophets today are quite the same. It is a bit of a unseemly to compare the two, don't you think.

Let's look at the church during King Noah's reign. His father, Zeniff, gave Noah the keys. What did Noah do? He put down his father's priests and consecrated his own and they engaged in all manner of sins, all the while, claiming to live the law of Moses. Sounds Pharisaical to me. But the Lord sent Abinadi to them. I won't go into the whole story here. In a nutshell, Alma ended up reorganizing the church as he had the authority to do it from Noah himself! And because of this, 450 people came to the Lord in baptism. Thereafter, his son Alma and the four sons of Mosiah coverted thousands along with Zeezrom who joined Alma and Amulek later and then Helaman and his son Nephi and his son Nephi, etc, converted thousands more. The Lord's work went forth still, and in great power, despite Noah's wickedness.

D&C 1

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

My point is, unless you are called by God as was Abinadi, it's not your place to suggest that those who were foreordained to be our leaders are Pharisees. If God sees fit to chasten our leaders, He will not do it through you or Flagg or Harmston or me. If you think it's your place to do so, then you might as well say you are greater than God, because obviously you know something that He doesn't.