LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **April 11th, 2012, 6:00 pm**

ATL Wake wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:
The point is that no priesthood holder holds or exercises keys independently. They are exercised by delegated authority.....so if the chain of authority is corrupted, so are the keys. So no, a righteous man cannot perform ordinances and keep the Kingdom alive independent of the presiding quorums of the Church unless a full blown restoration occurs through that man.
And John the Baptist? He did not have authority to baptize then?

You think he didn't hold keys just because we don't have enough of the record to confirm it? Of course he had keys and authority. Can you tell me where Melchizedek received his authority? What about Abinadi or Samuel the Lamanite? What about the Brother of Jared or any other number of prophets listed in scripture? Just because we don't get a line of authority attached to every name doesn't mean there isn't one. God's house is a house of order.

Posted: **April 11th, 2012, 6:46 pm**

patriotsaint wrote:
You think he didn't hold keys just because we don't have enough of the record to confirm it? Of course he had keys and authority. Can you tell me where Melchizedek received his authority? What about Abinadi or Samuel the Lamanite? What about the Brother of Jared or any other number of prophets listed in scripture? Just because we don't get a line of authority attached to every name doesn't mean there isn't one. God's house is a house of order.

No I believe he (John) did have authority. But stop for a second to think about where your argument leads you. John lived in an apostate Israel. Either he got the authority from the priestly class of his time, which was apostate, or he received it from a divine source. Either way he received the authority. However, your position would require John to have the keys, and if he has the keys then no one else could then have them, or they would be under his stewardship, including Christ, which is of course not the case.

I think we need to focus on distinguishing priestly office and authority/power in the priesthood. We traditionally treat them synonymously and they are not. One can be a priest and not have the priesthood (King Noah's priests, the priests at Christ's time). And one can be a prophet without being the high priest of the church. Throughout the Bible and Book of Mormon, there were times when there where many prophets in the land. But there is only one high priest (priestly office). However, there is only one High Priest (of the priesthood).

Melchizedek received the priesthood from his father, Noah. The others, I don't know and you're right, it doesn't matter.

Posted: **April 11th, 2012, 8:23 pm**

Even though Israel was apostate to a large degree at the time Christ came, it is interesting to see God still working through the designated line of authority. For example in John 11 it says:

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

I seem to recall other instances such as Eli who I believe was high priest and wasn't doing such a hot job, but the Lord still used him to raise up Samuel. So I guess maybe it is possible to have keys pass through a less valiant priesthood holder on to one who the Lord can use to accomplish his purposes.

Posted: **April 12th, 2012, 8:42 am**

ATL Wake wrote:No I believe he (John) did have authority. But stop for a second to think about where your argument leads you. John lived in an apostate Israel. Either he got the authority from the priestly class of his time, which was apostate, or he received it from a divine source. Either way he received the authority. However, your position would require John to have the keys, and if he has the keys then no one else could then have them, or they would be under his stewardship, including Christ, which is of course not the case.

He had the keys to act in the office to which he was appointed. Could he perform any ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood? If not, then how would Christ who exercised Melchizedek keys be under John's stewardship? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Posted: **April 12th, 2012, 9:04 am**

patriotsaint wrote:
He had the keys to act in the office to which he was appointed. Could he perform any ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood? If not, then how would Christ who exercised Melchizedek keys be under John's stewardship? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but it doesn't make sense to me.

That's a good distinction. So either John received authority (Aaronic) from from a corrupt source (apostate Israel priests, he probably got it from his father-who would then have received it from a corrupt source) or he received it from an unknown (to us) divine source, but acting independently of one with other keys.

Posted: **April 12th, 2012, 9:13 am**

ATL Wake wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:
He had the keys to act in the office to which he was appointed. Could he perform any ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood? If not, then how would Christ who exercised Melchizedek keys be under John's stewardship? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but it doesn't make sense to me.
That's a good distinction. So either John received authority (Aaronic) from from a corrupt source (apostate Israel priests, he probably got it from his father-who would then have received it from a corrupt source) or he received it from an unknown (to us) divine source, but acting independently of one with other keys.

It's a big assumption to assume he received it from a corrupt source. If John and his father were worthy, then why not the guy before them? He either received it from a line that was uncorrupted or from a divine source wouldn't you say? As far as operating independently, he did not. The keys to the Aaronic priesthood were given by Jehovah and so John was subject to that authority. Now before Christ was born did he deliver keys to his father perhaps? That is a mystery I don't understand, but in any case he received they keys again on the mount of transfiguration when he was ready.

Either way John was operating under keys that either Jehovah or that Father were ultimately responsible for right?

Posted: **April 12th, 2012, 1:53 pm**

natasha wrote:I beg to differ...the Gospel is true 100%....the Church is just the vehicle by which the Gospel is taught.

Will you be more specific on what you differ about?

I agree that the church "of Jesus Christ" teaches & lives a set of beliefs - but much of it is NOT of Jesus Christ!
Obviously Jesus Christ NEVER taught materialism, never taught finnacial investment & hording - in fact, he taught the opposite - to share whatever you have with others & that love for others as self is more important than laws and prophets. He wouldn't spend billions on a shopping mall, when almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are starving & tens of thousands die every day of preventable causes!
This church "vehicle" is doing what Moroni wrote about - failing... "All things will fail, except charity, which is the pure love of Christ."
Gospel = "good news" which we don't just get in one shot, & there we have 100% of the truth.
We believe in being spiritually born again & again... eternal progression.

Wake up!
People are starving & we've promised at baptism to care for those in need.
We've been told by Jesus in many ways that how we treat others, we treat God. If we neglect others & let them die, & give money to church leaders who hide it & use it for worldly pursuits while robbing the poor, we are neglecting God.

Posted: **April 12th, 2012, 8:30 pm**

Thinker wrote:
natasha wrote:I beg to differ...the Gospel is true 100%....the Church is just the vehicle by which the Gospel is taught.
Will you be more specific on what you differ about?

I agree that the church "of Jesus Christ" teaches & lives a set of beliefs - but much of it is NOT of Jesus Christ!
Obviously Jesus Christ NEVER taught materialism, never taught finnacial investment & hording - in fact, he taught the opposite - to share whatever you have with others & that love for others as self is more important than laws and prophets. He wouldn't spend billions on a shopping mall, when almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are starving & tens of thousands die every day of preventable causes!
This church "vehicle" is doing what Moroni wrote about - failing... "All things will fail, except charity, which is the pure love of Christ."
Gospel = "good news" which we don't just get in one shot, & there we have 100% of the truth.
We believe in being spiritually born again & again... eternal progression.

Wake up!
People are starving & we've promised at baptism to care for those in need.
We've been told by Jesus in many ways that how we treat others, we treat God. If we neglect others & let them die, & give money to church leaders who hide it & use it for worldly pursuits while robbing the poor, we are neglecting God.

Lol.... =))

Posted: **April 12th, 2012, 9:28 pm**

2. Thinking distortions are taught in the church, which contribute to mental illness... (ie the church and the leaders cause mental illness)
1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative...In church, I've gotten the message that I am not good enough, no matter how much I serve & give & that even if I do a lot & don't pay tithing to the church but instead to the poor, I am unworthy. You’re right the church never emphasizes the good.
2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix) - BI-POLAR thinking: "The church is either true or not." "You are either on the Lord's side or you aren't." You’re right again. Polarized thinking like thinking the church only filters out good.
3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening - (Prejudice - racial & of "non members") Kind of like generalizing the whole Church and it’s leaders as being fallen from your Deuteronomical standard.
4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts -(spiritual feeling interpreted to mean church is completely true, when it may be just a particular personally inspiring aspect... I was taught that if something did not fit neatly into dictated beliefs (ie articles of faith or GA statements) then, it should be discounted automatically..Also, many members assume that people who go "inactive" have done something wrong or are somehow misguided for leaving the church & such people are thus shunned & treated badly.) Or jumping to conclusions that the church and the leaders are corrupt by not following one of 613 laws of the mosaic law that we no longer follow.
5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster - "LAST DAYS!!!" Fear of God and Satan. Because Christ and his prophets never talk about disaster, preparedness or the last days.
6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing - Many take celebrities & political figures as if they represent them personally, because they are Mormon. Because so many leaders stand at the pulpit and tell us to worship a cult of personality, celebrity or politicians.
7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control) - ie story of Joseph Smith being victimized, when he also hurt others. Ah yes. Joseph was such a cruel man that victimized so many people. And pointing out the history of the depradation towards latter and early day saints is so harmful that we should forget it ever happened.

8. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain - (I've never read that Jesus ex-communicated nor disfellowshipped even "the least of these.") Yes you are right again because Jesus never said anything about removing hands or eyes if they offend you, or drowning with a millstone those that offended little ones (members), or leaving mother or father, or bringing swords.
9. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept (Too many "shoulds" to name. One incorrect shaming is about sex, so many Mormons even struggle sexually after marriage) I thought you loved commandments you keep mentioning tithes in Deut. Over and over again.
10. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't) - (I've been taught that Mormonism has a monopoly on the companionship of spirit.) Never search your feelings, instincts or whisperings of the Holy Spirit, even when it speaks peace to your hearts. It is ok to be beyond feeling.
11. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true) ... (There is the teaching that "non-members" are lacking and must change to our ways, as if our way is the only way and that if we convince someone to go our way, we will be happy.) That’s right no one can change. There is no need to preach repentance. There is no straight and narrow path.
12. Global Labeling - Generalizing - I was taught that anything outside the beliefs of the church is wrong, but everything said by church leaders is God's word and should not be questioned. Sure everyone is taught this in church, that’s why the leaders never quote anyone else or mention anyone else outside church members. Oh wait that is not right…
13. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct - (This goes along with Personalization - where members perceive any praise or criticism of the church as praise or criticism of them, obvious on forums - not just between members and non-members but even within members. This is definitely just a mormon thing because everyone knows folks like to be wrong,right?
14. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life. More energy & money is given to try to help those who have died, than those who are alive. Sure Jesus said the poor you will always have among you but that doesn’t matter. Neither does the idea of saving our kindred dead. And you are right again, there is no pay off in the after life…

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 7:32 am**

Zkulptor wrote:
Thinker wrote:
natasha wrote:I beg to differ...the Gospel is true 100%....the Church is just the vehicle by which the Gospel is taught.
Will you be more specific on what you differ about?

I agree that the church "of Jesus Christ" teaches & lives a set of beliefs - but much of it is NOT of Jesus Christ!
Obviously Jesus Christ NEVER taught materialism, never taught finnacial investment & hording - in fact, he taught the opposite - to share whatever you have with others & that love for others as self is more important than laws and prophets. He wouldn't spend billions on a shopping mall, when almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are starving & tens of thousands die every day of preventable causes!
This church "vehicle" is doing what Moroni wrote about - failing... "All things will fail, except charity, which is the pure love of Christ."
Gospel = "good news" which we don't just get in one shot, & there we have 100% of the truth.
We believe in being spiritually born again & again... eternal progression.

Wake up!
People are starving & we've promised at baptism to care for those in need.
We've been told by Jesus in many ways that how we treat others, we treat God. If we neglect others & let them die, & give money to church leaders who hide it & use it for worldly pursuits while robbing the poor, we are neglecting God.
Lol.... =))

Indeed Z. What a joke! I guess it beats

(

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 8:08 am**

Eddie Lyle wrote:
2. Thinking distortions are taught in the church, which contribute to mental illness... (ie the church and the leaders cause mental illness)
1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative...In church, I've gotten the message that I am not good enough, no matter how much I serve & give & that even if I do a lot & don't pay tithing to the church but instead to the poor, I am unworthy. You’re right the church never emphasizes the good.
2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix) - BI-POLAR thinking: "The church is either true or not." "You are either on the Lord's side or you aren't." You’re right again. Polarized thinking like thinking the church only filters out good.
3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening - (Prejudice - racial & of "non members") Kind of like generalizing the whole Church and it’s leaders as being fallen from your Deuteronomical standard.
4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts -(spiritual feeling interpreted to mean church is completely true, when it may be just a particular personally inspiring aspect... I was taught that if something did not fit neatly into dictated beliefs (ie articles of faith or GA statements) then, it should be discounted automatically..Also, many members assume that people who go "inactive" have done something wrong or are somehow misguided for leaving the church & such people are thus shunned & treated badly.) Or jumping to conclusions that the church and the leaders are corrupt by not following one of 613 laws of the mosaic law that we no longer follow.
5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster - "LAST DAYS!!!" Fear of God and Satan. Because Christ and his prophets never talk about disaster, preparedness or the last days.
6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing - Many take celebrities & political figures as if they represent them personally, because they are Mormon. Because so many leaders stand at the pulpit and tell us to worship a cult of personality, celebrity or politicians.
7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control) - ie story of Joseph Smith being victimized, when he also hurt others. Ah yes. Joseph was such a cruel man that victimized so many people. And pointing out the history of the depradation towards latter and early day saints is so harmful that we should forget it ever happened.

8. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain - (I've never read that Jesus ex-communicated nor disfellowshipped even "the least of these.") Yes you are right again because Jesus never said anything about removing hands or eyes if they offend you, or drowning with a millstone those that offended little ones (members), or leaving mother or father, or bringing swords.
9. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept (Too many "shoulds" to name. One incorrect shaming is about sex, so many Mormons even struggle sexually after marriage) I thought you loved commandments you keep mentioning tithes in Deut. Over and over again.
10. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't) - (I've been taught that Mormonism has a monopoly on the companionship of spirit.) Never search your feelings, instincts or whisperings of the Holy Spirit, even when it speaks peace to your hearts. It is ok to be beyond feeling.
11. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true) ... (There is the teaching that "non-members" are lacking and must change to our ways, as if our way is the only way and that if we convince someone to go our way, we will be happy.) That’s right no one can change. There is no need to preach repentance. There is no straight and narrow path.
12. Global Labeling - Generalizing - I was taught that anything outside the beliefs of the church is wrong, but everything said by church leaders is God's word and should not be questioned. Sure everyone is taught this in church, that’s why the leaders never quote anyone else or mention anyone else outside church members. Oh wait that is not right…
13. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct - (This goes along with Personalization - where members perceive any praise or criticism of the church as praise or criticism of them, obvious on forums - not just between members and non-members but even within members. This is definitely just a mormon thing because everyone knows folks like to be wrong,right?
14. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life. More energy & money is given to try to help those who have died, than those who are alive. Sure Jesus said the poor you will always have among you but that doesn’t matter. Neither does the idea of saving our kindred dead. And you are right again, there is no pay off in the after life…

I really think that Thinker has Ed Decker of The Godmakers fame on speed dial Eddie.

)

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 8:27 am**

Thinker - It seems clear that you are like day old jello - all set. So am I. We need the church and the gospel - as was mentioned in Conference. Clearly, you don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear bad mouthing of the church. Seeing as how this is LDS Freedom Forum, where the assumption is that people here are members of the church, why would you want to spend time here talking about it? You could find more like minds on one of the groups out there for people who have left the church. My hope is that you are only hour old jello and you are here because somewhere inside you are conflicted. If not, remember that when you hit bottom trying to survive outside the fellowship of the church, it's going to hurt but you can still be reheated and chilled into jello until you get it right. The church will be all ready to embrace you when that day comes.

Seriously though, I think you are "thinking" your way out of the church. The good news is that if you keep on thinking you'll come back around.

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 8:42 am**

ChelC wrote:Thinker - It seems clear that you are like day old jello - all set. So am I. We need the church and the gospel - as was mentioned in Conference. Clearly, you don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear bad mouthing of the church. Seeing as how this is LDS Freedom Forum, where the assumption is that people here are members of the church, why would you want to spend time here talking about it? You could find more like minds on one of the groups out there for people who have left the church. My hope is that you are only hour old jello and you are here because somewhere inside you are conflicted. If not, remember that when you hit bottom trying to survive outside the fellowship of the church, it's going to hurt but you can still be reheated and chilled into jello until you get it right. The church will be all ready to embrace you when that day comes.

Seriously though, I think you are "thinking" your way out of the church. The good news is that if you keep on thinking you'll come back around.

I love those jello references ChelC. I couldn't resist:

Utah Residency Test

You must be able to answer yes to 10 or more of the following questions to qualify for permanent residency in the state of Utah. Failure to do so qualifies you as a temporary resident only.

Do you have a bumper sticker that says "Families can be Forever"?
Was the mother of the bride pregnant at your wedding?
Did a member of your family write in Lavelle Edwards for President in the last election?
If you shop on Sunday, do you post date the check?
Does your mother have purple or amber plastic grapes in the attic?
Were you an aunt or uncle before you attended kindergarten?
Do you have 2 gallons of ice cream in the freezer at all times?
Do you consider peanut butter on the seat of your car an accessory?
When you take a family to a restaurant, do you ask for extra plates?
Do you consider "dam" a swear word?
Does your family consider a trip to McDonald's a night out?
Do you believe you have to be 18 to order coffee in a cafe?
Are at least two of your salad bowls at neighbor's houses?
Do you think Jack Daniels is a country western singer?
Do you consider your temple recommend a credit reference?
When your ward basketball team plays, is it similar to the L.A. riots?
Do you have an uncontrollable urge to arrive at meetings 5 minutes late?
Did you meet your spouse at BYU or on "Your Mission."
Can you make a Jell-O with fruit salad without a recipe?
Do you bring cola home from the store in a brown paper bag?
Do your children believe that deer hunting is a national holiday?
Do you negotiate prices at a garage sale?
Do you feel guilty when you watch Monday Night Football?
Do you think red punch and green Jell-O are the main ingredients for a successful party?
Do your kids think Jell-O is a major food group?
When you pick someone up at the airport, do you bring at least 1/3 of your relatives and have a family reunion at the gate?
Do you have a "Quiet Book" as part of your library?
Are you embarrassed if any of your children are more than two years apart in age?
Do you say "Gawl", "Heck", or "Fetch" more than once a day?
Do you travel on Morris Air Service at least once a year?
Do you think "Ignernt" means rude?
Does it take more than one car to get all your kids over to Grandma's house?
Do you have any relatives named LaDell, LaVelle, LaDawn, or LaVerle (how about LaDurl)?
Does your 2 year supply of food include more than 40 pounds of candy?
Do you keep a supply of butcher paper on hand to make large "Welcome Home" banners?
Do you refuse coffee but accept all offers of Excedrin?
Do you think it is more prestigious to go to BYU than Harvard?
Do you have relatives in California doing everything they can to "Move Back"?
Do you shop for wedding gifts at D.I?
Does your family take Mormon Tequila to family reunions? (Ingredients of Mormon Tequila: Kool-aid with gummi worm in the bottom.)
Has anybody in your family ever taken Cheerios in a sandwich bag or Tupperware dish to church?
Have you ever made a major purchase at D.I (Couches, appliances, electronics)?

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 9:38 am**

I answered yes to 2 or 3 of those, Mark. What does that mean?

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 11:42 am**

I see absolutely nothing funny about tens of thousands dying today, as they did yesterday, while the church hides money & uses it to build up another corporation - a shopping mall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Never has there been so many suffering from extreme poverty - Almost 1,000,000,000!
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tell, me what is funny about watching your child die of preventable causes - like TB - because you didn't have access to a 20 cent shot?
What is funny about you dying of AIDS or malaria or of complications from chronic hunger?
WHAT IS FUNNY ABOUT THAT?

Some try to justify church leader's greed & materialism by the parable of the talents.
Let's put the PARABLE of the talents in context... (Matt 25)

Before teaching it, Jesus taught about the 10 prepared virgins... about reponsibility & keeping the big picture in mind, in our priorities.
Then he taught the parable of the talents - how 2 used their talents wisely, but 1 did not.
What does "wisely" mean?
He explains in the next parable of dividing the sheep from the goats...
He says to the sheep,
"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungred, & ye have me meat: I was thirsty, & ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me in: Naked, & ye clothed me: I was sick, & ye visited me: I was in prison, & ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, & fed thee? or thirsty, & gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, & took thee in? or naked, & clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, & came unto thee?

And the King shall answer & say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil & his angels: For I was an hungred, & ye gave me no meat: I was thristy, & ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me not in: naked & ye clothed me not: sick, & in prison, & ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, & did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the rightous into life eternal."

In the parable of the talents, Jesus was teaching the Lord who was mad at the one who hid his talent was not mad at him for not making money, but for not using his money to bless others as himself (the 2 greatest commandments, which "hang all the law & the prophets"/profits).

"According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death."
http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/ ... -and-stats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...And the church leaders have chosen to hide finances & build up a large and spacious shopping center.

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 11:58 am**

Thinker, you fail to differentiate between the "Church" the organization and the "church" meaning you and I. The "Church" has a mission to fill, as directed by the Lord, and its not to solve every temporal ill on the planet. That is your's and my job. That is what we have stewardship over, our fellow man. If the Lord allows wicked men to inflict suffering in order to pass a righteous judgement, then why would he not maintain the same policy for HIs church, and it is His church. The church teaches correct principles and then lets us govern ourselves.

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 12:02 pm**

The concern about the secrecy of church finances has been dicussed in other forums like Mormon Dialogue and New Order Mormon...

"The Doctrine and Covenants clearly states that the church is to be governed by Common Consent of the governed. We are the last check and balance. How in the world can we have any meaningful consent without knowledge/information. Without open disclosure our Common Consent is an illusion."

"Most other charitable organizations and churches make their budget information available to the people who donate money as well as the general public. I understand that believing Mormons trust church leaders to make inspired decisions about where tithing revenue goes, but if there is nothing to hide, why does the church not release at least a summary of its budget? I've seen it reported that public financial disclosure was church policy up until sometime in the 50's, so why did it change?"

"If the Church is going to let us see so very little of our tithing money at work, they at least need to be transparent as to where it's going. If they can't be honest, there's probably a good reason, and it's probably because members wouldn't be happy about it."

"I used to not really have a problem with the lack of reporting.
But, then I learned about two things: City Creek Mall and the fact that (by their own admission) the church is only averaging $5 per member per year in humanitarian aid. Most TBM's seem able to rationalize City Creek Mall but I don't know how they would rationalize such a low expenditure on humanitarian aid."

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 12:11 pm**

Laronius,
We give tithing...for malls?
Nope. We give tithing for Godly purposes.
Deut 14:28-29 specifically states that after tithes are collected, 1/3 (1 out of every 3 years) are to be given to the poor.
Mysteriously, this scripture reference is missing in lds bible indexes and dictionaries, maybe because church leaders don't want to be held accountable for paying tithing to the poor.

We will be held accountable for how we love or neglect to love others.
If we turn a blind eye to & even support secret acts of finances and unChristlike spending, we are contributing to evil.

Laronius, consider the reason for the war in heaven... it was over free agency.
Now consider how people are giving their free agency over & even following deceit over Jesus Christ's teachings...

Characteristics of a cult (listed by several organizations, including American Family Foundation)...
1) Requires UNquestioning commitment to leader
2) Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished
3) Leaders dictate how members should think, feel & act
4) Claims special, exalted status for itself/leaders
5) Polarized us-versus-them mentality
6) Leader is not accountable to any authorities
7) Teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary
8) Leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members
9) Preoccupied with bringing in new members.
10) Preoccupied with making money
11) Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities
12) The most loyal members feel there can be no life outside the context of the group & fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/up ... istics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Charity never faileth, Wherefore cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail -
But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever." -Moroni 7:46-47

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 1:31 pm**

Thinker wrote: Deut 14:28-29 specifically states that after tithes are collected, 1/3 (1 out of every 3 years) are to be given to the poor.

Only 1/3 to the poor? That doesn't seem right. What is more important than taking care of the poor? Nothing. Christ told the rich man to sell 'all' he had and give it to the poor. It sounds like that scripture has been translated incorrectly or tampered with through the ages.

I believe that Heavenly Father commands us to not just give our tithes and offerings to the Bishop or the Church and never worry about it again, trusting it will all be handled correctly. For that is blind obedience or blind giving and is not what Heavenly Father wants.

We are asked to watch over our leaders to make sure they are leading righteously and using the funds we give in a righteous way. Or we will deserve what we get and be held accountable if 'they' do wrong and we didn't try to correct things.

For no one is perfect and we can't just trust that even Prophets will never do something wrong or fall. Church history teaches us that, but if we don't study it we are doomed to repeat it.

Financial records used to be transparent so we could do our job at watching over our leaders and I believe they should still be transparent.

How can we judge our leaders by their 'actions' as we are commanded to - to know if they are acting righteously or not, if they do everything in secret (political views, financial decisions, etc.)?

Part of sustaining our leaders is helping them repent if we see them get off course. That is why 'common consent' is the law of the Church. For the members have 'accountability' if the Church or leaders do wrong, for the members were supposed to keep an eye on their leaders.

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 2:25 pm**

awake wrote:
Thinker wrote: Deut 14:28-29 specifically states that after tithes are collected, 1/3 (1 out of every 3 years) are to be given to the poor.
Only 1/3 to the poor? That doesn't seem right. What is more important than taking care of the poor? Nothing. Christ told the rich man to sell 'all' he had and give it to the poor. It sounds like that scripture has been translated incorrectly or tampered with through the ages.

I believe that Heavenly Father commands us to not just give our tithes and offerings to the Bishop or the Church and never worry about it again, trusting it will all be handled correctly. For that is blind obedience or blind giving and is not what Heavenly Father wants.

We are asked to watch over our leaders to make sure they are leading righteously and using the funds we give in a righteous way. Or we will deserve what we get and be held accountable if 'they' do wrong and we didn't try to correct things.

For no one is perfect and we can't just trust that even Prophets will never do something wrong or fall. Church history teaches us that, but if we don't study it we are doomed to repeat it.

Financial records used to be transparent so we could do our job at watching over our leaders and I believe they should still be transparent.

How can we judge our leaders by their 'actions' as we are commanded to - to know if they are acting righteously or not, if they do everything in secret (political views, financial decisions, etc.)?

Part of sustaining our leaders is helping them repent if we see them get off course. That is why 'common consent' is the law of the Church. For the members have 'accountability' if the Church or leaders do wrong, for the members were supposed to keep an eye on their leaders.

Good points, Awake.
I often hear in church that the law of Moses was the "lesser law."
Jesus didn't portion out part of his increase to give, he simply loved as was needed, as he went along.
Jesus taught a higher law...
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart...
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, & hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." -Matt 5

I often have to remind myself when my feelings are hurt, that it is NOT commanded that others love me, but I am commanded to love others, as myself (also to love myself - which is a challenging balance at times).
Some think that LOVE means good feelings and pleasing another, but any parent knows that love is more than that.
Love is hoping & striving for what is best, through trial & error (active faith).
Love is the serenity to accept what we can't change, courage to change what we can, & wisdom to know that difference.
That's why love is the only thing that never fails!

"It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." -Psalms 118:8
It's also truly written that God is love (1John 4:8) and that all things/people will fail, but charity (which is the pure LOVE of Christ) will never fail!

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 2:36 pm**

Thinker wrote: I often hear in church that the law of Moses was the "lesser law."
Jesus didn't portion out part of his increase to give, he simply loved as was needed, as he went along.
Jesus taught a higher law...
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart...
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, & hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." -Matt 5

I often have to remind myself when my feelings are hurt, that it is NOT commanded that others love me, but I am commanded to love others, as myself (also to love myself - which is a challenging balance at times).
Some think that LOVE means good feelings and pleasing another, but any parent knows that love is more than that.
Love is hoping & striving for what is best, through trial & error (active faith).
Love is the serenity to accept what we can't change, courage to change what we can, & wisdom to know that difference.
That's why love is the only thing that never fails!

"It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." -Psalms 118:8
It's also truly written that God is love (1John 4:8) and that all things/people will fail, but charity (which is the pure LOVE of Christ) will never fail!

I agree.

We are commanded to have the 'unconditional pure love of Christ', so we can be counted among the righteous.

Everlasting love is the greatest power in the universe. It is God's power. It is by love that he has performed all his mighty works and creations.

Priesthood Power is the power of God and is just 'love'. The more love we possess the more Priesthood power we gain. If we don't possess pure love it is impossible to possess any Priesthood power or authority.

Unfortunately today, it seems very few members or leaders believe in having, let alone possess, this pure unconditional love.

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 5:26 pm**

Thinker you need to look at the big picture. The Church membership is .02% of the world's population. There is no way we are going to feed all the poor or cure all the sick. The Church is estimated to be worth about 30-40 billion dollars. That includes all the real estate. Even if we, with common consent, liquified all that into cold hard cash it would never be enough to feed 1 billion people for more than a few days. The GDP of the US is 15 trillion ( or there abouts) a year. Again that means all the assets of the church equal about .2 % of the whole US for a year.

I agree that we as a church could be more charitable, but the thing is that what ever we do will never be enough. You also discount fast offerings, where those who wish can donate what ever they want. It is my experience as a financial clerk in 3 different wards that people give very little here.

I know I am not going to persuade you to follow the latter day prophets as you have some warped idea about who they are and you are focused on 1 of 613 laws found in the torah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. How many of these others should we be following as a church?

If we are only to care for the poor why does Christ ask his followers to baptize all nations? Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...
He also told Peter to feed his sheep. That was spiritually not physically. It is the role of the member to have charity or love. We show God we Love Him by loving our neighbors, this is true. But I have never seen a commandment that it is the role of the church to try to feed and heal all the poor and sick in the world. We are told to do what we can. The higher law or the two great commandments is about personal responsibility, not necessarily institutional responsibility. The prophets that you so lightly disregard have been given keys and authority to revelation. Remember Christ said it was up on the rock of revelation that the He would build his church.

How do we now have the words of Christ from the Bible, Book of Mormon or other scripture? Because men and prophets were inspired and commanded to write them. What is the role of a prophet? Why do you disregard the commandment of tithing in the Doctrine and Covenants?

From the locked thread on Center Creek, you can see I was not fond of the idea, but that doesn't mean I discount the prophets nor their roles. So go ahead and continue to not pay your tithing, to accuse the Brethren of causing mental illness and that the church is a cult. "the light shines in the dark, and the dark comprehends it not." "For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity."

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 6:14 pm**

awake wrote:Part of sustaining our leaders is helping them repent if we see them get off course.

I'm sorry, but that has got to take the cake. =))

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 6:44 pm**

Eddie Lyle wrote: I know I am not going to persuade you to follow the latter day prophets as you have some warped idea about who they are and you are focused on 1 of 613 laws found in the torah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. How many of these others should we be following as a church?

I have to laugh at this attempt to make their concern appear absurd. They didn't JUST pick 1 of 613 laws. They picked one that Nephi, Isaiah, Jacob, King Benjamin, Mormon, and Moroni specifically warned against. The BOM prophets saw our day. We were warned. Some are trying to remind us of these warnings and are taking them seriously.

Frankly I am amazed at the attitude, "Well we can't save them all, so screw them all!"

What happened to throwing the starfish back into the ocean, "because it made a difference for that one."

Posted: **April 13th, 2012, 7:14 pm**

What I find laughable is that here we have a man, Thomas S. Monson (ignoring his calling as prophet for the time being), who's very life seems to be the epitome of love and concern for others and yet there are those who write him off as nothing more than a self-absorbed scoundrel.

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