LDS Freedom Forum

Mark wrote:“‘Some say that the kingdom of God was not set up upon the earth until the day of Pentecost, and that John did not preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, but I say to you in the name of the Lord that the kingdom of God was set up upon the earth in the days of Adam to the present time. Whenever there has been a righteous man on the earth, unto whom God revealed His word and gave power and authority to administer in His name, and where there is a priest of God . . . to administer in the ordinances of the gospel, and officiate in the priesthood of God, there is the kingdom of God. . . . Where there is a prophet, a priest, or a righteous man unto whom God gives His oracles, there is the kingdom of God; and where the oracles of God are not, there the kingdom of God is not.’ ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 271–272).

That's a great quote Mark. Thanks for posting it, I had never read it before.

It makes sense though, that as long as there is at least 1 righteous man who has had the Priesthood handed down to him through righteous men, the Kingdom of God is still on the earth.

Even though everyone in the Church, except a few, may apostatize, as the BoM Prophets suggest will happen today, as long as a few men, or even 1 man, stays righteous and thus retains his Priesthood, the Kingdom of God is still on the earth.

I believe there are a few righteous men since Joseph who have retained their Priesthood and have passed it down through their righteous sons or others, and thus the Kingdom of God still remains on the earth today and will until Christ returns.

awake wrote:

Mark wrote:“‘Some say that the kingdom of God was not set up upon the earth until the day of Pentecost, and that John did not preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, but I say to you in the name of the Lord that the kingdom of God was set up upon the earth in the days of Adam to the present time. Whenever there has been a righteous man on the earth, unto whom God revealed His word and gave power and authority to administer in His name, and where there is a priest of God . . . to administer in the ordinances of the gospel, and officiate in the priesthood of God, there is the kingdom of God. . . . Where there is a prophet, a priest, or a righteous man unto whom God gives His oracles, there is the kingdom of God; and where the oracles of God are not, there the kingdom of God is not.’ ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 271–272).

That's a great quote Mark. Thanks for posting it, I had never read it before.

It makes sense though, that as long as there is at least 1 righteous man who has had the Priesthood handed down to him through righteous men, the Kingdom of God is still on the earth.

Even though everyone in the Church, except a few, may apostatize, as the BoM Prophets suggest will happen today, as long as a few men, or even 1 man, stays righteous and thus retains his Priesthood, the Kingdom of God is still on the earth.

I believe there are a few righteous men since Joseph who have retained their Priesthood and have passed it down through their righteous sons or others, and thus the Kingdom of God still remains on the earth today and will until Christ returns.

Notice the prophet says "authority to administer in his name". Authority to administer what? The ordinances of the gospel. How are the ordinances administered? Through priesthood keys that are given to administer such. The Kingdom of God ceases to exist without the proper priesthood keys. These keys are given to the prophet who then delegates certain of those keys to different leaders in the Church.

It takes more than a good man who has been ordained to the priesthood for the Kingdom of God to be on the earth. Without keys how would priesthood authority be passed? Without keys how would any ordinance be performed? If the key holders apostatize, then a restoration is needed. You can't simply pass priesthood authority down the line without keys.

patriotsaint wrote:

awake wrote:

Mark wrote:“‘Some say that the kingdom of God was not set up upon the earth until the day of Pentecost, and that John did not preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, but I say to you in the name of the Lord that the kingdom of God was set up upon the earth in the days of Adam to the present time. Whenever there has been a righteous man on the earth, unto whom God revealed His word and gave power and authority to administer in His name, and where there is a priest of God . . . to administer in the ordinances of the gospel, and officiate in the priesthood of God, there is the kingdom of God. . . . Where there is a prophet, a priest, or a righteous man unto whom God gives His oracles, there is the kingdom of God; and where the oracles of God are not, there the kingdom of God is not.’ ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 271–272).

That's a great quote Mark. Thanks for posting it, I had never read it before.

It makes sense though, that as long as there is at least 1 righteous man who has had the Priesthood handed down to him through righteous men, the Kingdom of God is still on the earth.

Even though everyone in the Church, except a few, may apostatize, as the BoM Prophets suggest will happen today, as long as a few men, or even 1 man, stays righteous and thus retains his Priesthood, the Kingdom of God is still on the earth.

I believe there are a few righteous men since Joseph who have retained their Priesthood and have passed it down through their righteous sons or others, and thus the Kingdom of God still remains on the earth today and will until Christ returns.

Notice the prophet says "authority to administer in his name". Authority to administer what? The ordinances of the gospel. How are the ordinances administered? Through priesthood keys that are given to administer such. The Kingdom of God ceases to exist without the proper priesthood keys. These keys are given to the prophet who then delegates certain of those keys to different leaders in the Church.

It takes more than a good man who has been ordained to the priesthood for the Kingdom of God to be on the earth. Without keys how would priesthood authority be passed? Without keys how would any ordinance be performed? If the key holders apostatize, then a restoration is needed. You can't simply pass priesthood authority down the line without keys.

Absolutely correct patriot. Hence the Lord tells us in section 84 verses 20-21:

20."Therefore in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest."
21."And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh."

Now if the leadership of this church had fallen into a state of apostasy and had become "like Pharisees" as has been hypothesized and intimated here on this forum they would no longer be entitled to those keys necessary to administer the ordinances and the power of godliness would no longer be made manifest in this church. Therefore another restoration would be required. If someone really believed that were the case in the church today they would not spend another day in this church if in fact they desired the power of godliness and the ordinances of salvation.

patriotsaint wrote: Notice the prophet says "authority to administer in his name". Authority to administer what? The ordinances of the gospel. How are the ordinances administered? Through priesthood keys that are given to administer such. The Kingdom of God ceases to exist without the proper priesthood keys. These keys are given to the prophet who then delegates certain of those keys to different leaders in the Church.

It takes more than a good man who has been ordained to the priesthood for the Kingdom of God to be on the earth. Without keys how would priesthood authority be passed? Without keys how would any ordinance be performed? If the key holders apostatize, then a restoration is needed. You can't simply pass priesthood authority down the line without keys.

Joseph said "Where there is a prophet, priest 'or' a righteous man", so clearly he mean't that just a single righteous man who had been given the keys to baptize or to bless the sacrament, etc, could pass down that authority to do those ordinances, and keep the Kingdom of God alive.

Also, those were the only ordinances performed in the early Church, until the last few years of Joseph's life. So just the ordinances of baptism, confirmation, and the sacrament can keep the Kingdom alive until more help is received.

I believe Joseph Smith understood very clearly that the Prophet could fall and so he said this statement about even just a righteous man could keep things afloat.

If it wasn't so Joseph would not have said that just one righteous man could keep the Kingdom on the earth.

Mark wrote:
Absolutely correct patriot. Hence the Lord tells us in section 84 verses 20-21:

20."Therefore in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest."
21."And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh."

Now if the leadership of this church had fallen into a state of apostasy and had become "like Pharisees" as has been hypothesized and intimated here on this forum they would no longer be entitled to those keys necessary to administer the ordinances and the power of godliness would no longer be made manifest in this church.

Mark I'm curious about this scripture. What do you think the power of godliness being manifest in the church is?

awake wrote:

patriotsaint wrote: Notice the prophet says "authority to administer in his name". Authority to administer what? The ordinances of the gospel. How are the ordinances administered? Through priesthood keys that are given to administer such. The Kingdom of God ceases to exist without the proper priesthood keys. These keys are given to the prophet who then delegates certain of those keys to different leaders in the Church.

It takes more than a good man who has been ordained to the priesthood for the Kingdom of God to be on the earth. Without keys how would priesthood authority be passed? Without keys how would any ordinance be performed? If the key holders apostatize, then a restoration is needed. You can't simply pass priesthood authority down the line without keys.

Joseph said "Where there is a prophet, priest 'or' a righteous man", so clearly he mean't that just a single righteous man who had been given the keys to baptize or to bless the sacrament, etc, could pass down that authority to do those ordinances, and keep the Kingdom of God alive.

I believe Joseph Smith understood very clearly that the Prophet could fall and so he said this statement about even just a righteous man could keep things afloat.

If it wasn't so Joseph would not have said that just one righteous man could keep the Kingdom on the earth.

Joseph of all people understood how the Lord operated within his kingdom. Again awake go to section 42 verse 11 where the Lord revealed:

"And I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church."

The Lord works in a state of order in His priesthood. If a prophet were to fall he would be removed from his office and another would be placed in his stead through the Lords designated way as revealed in the Doctrine and Covenants in order to continue that established line of authority with properly held keys and the church would know that were the case. We would not be left to guess who had the keys.

Mark wrote: "And I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church."

I believe when Joseph talked of that 'one righteous man' keeping the Kingdom alive, he meant that he 'had' already been ordained previously by someone in authority, it's just that the higher authority could fall but that would not take away that man's authority.

So I do not believe the above scripture presents a problem to his other statement.

Of course a prophet can fall. We have evidence of it happening in the bible. But I think that if we believe that the Lord is running the church, we should trust Him to do it, and stand behind the leaders. If we don't believe the Lord is running the church, then the problem comes into focus and is understandable.

It seems that some on this thread believe the Lord is running the church and some don't. I will leave it to the Spirit to sort us out on that since debate does not a testimony make.

reese wrote:

Mark wrote:
Absolutely correct patriot. Hence the Lord tells us in section 84 verses 20-21:

20."Therefore in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest."
21."And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh."

Now if the leadership of this church had fallen into a state of apostasy and had become "like Pharisees" as has been hypothesized and intimated here on this forum they would no longer be entitled to those keys necessary to administer the ordinances and the power of godliness would no longer be made manifest in this church.

Mark I'm curious about this scripture. What do you think the power of godliness being manifest in the church is?

Verses 19,22-24,33-42.

ChelC wrote:Of course a prophet can fall. We have evidence of it happening in the bible. But I think that if we believe that the Lord is running the church, we should trust Him to do it, and stand behind the leaders. If we don't believe the Lord is running the church, then the problem comes into focus and is understandable.

It seems that some on this thread believe the Lord is running the church and some don't. I will leave it to the Spirit to sort us out on that since debate does not a testimony make.

Even though the Lord is running the Church, if his leaders and members refuse to follow him, what can he do? He has to honor their agency and let them fall and led the Church astray. Not saying this has happened but it certainly can happen.

The Lord can easily continue to lead people individually, if their leaders fall.

ChelC wrote:Of course a prophet can fall. We have evidence of it happening in the bible. But I think that if we believe that the Lord is running the church, we should trust Him to do it, and stand behind the leaders. If we don't believe the Lord is running the church, then the problem comes into focus and is understandable.

It seems that some on this thread believe the Lord is running the church and some don't. I will leave it to the Spirit to sort us out on that since debate does not a testimony make.

Just for the records in heaven I believe the Lord is running the church. So let it be written. So let it be done. #:-s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bQnxlHZsjY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mark wrote:

reese wrote:

Mark wrote:
Absolutely correct patriot. Hence the Lord tells us in section 84 verses 20-21:

20."Therefore in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest."
21."And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh."

Now if the leadership of this church had fallen into a state of apostasy and had become "like Pharisees" as has been hypothesized and intimated here on this forum they would no longer be entitled to those keys necessary to administer the ordinances and the power of godliness would no longer be made manifest in this church.

Mark I'm curious about this scripture. What do you think the power of godliness being manifest in the church is?

Verses 19,22-24,33-42.

I found vs. 41 interesting. So is this saying that "receiving the covenent" is something more than just being ordained to any particular office in the priesthood? I tend think it would have to, as I don't see every man who has been ordained to this priesthood, possessing enough knowledge and therefore responsibility to become a son of perdition by turning 'therefrom'. It reminds me of Nephi talkng about the baptism by fire and the holy ghost holding someone responsible to the level of becoming a son of perdition if the were to deny it after receiving it. Clearly not every child being confirmed and told to receive the holy ghost is automatically BF&HG, and therefore accountable to that level. So it must be the same with being ordained with the priesthood, the ordination is just an invitation of sorts, and receiving the "covenant" would be the validation or activation of priesthood power? What do you think? And if that is the case how would one know that they have actually received the covenant?

As long as President Monson is in office I'm satisfied that our Lord, our leader, our King is supporting him 100 percent, a decision based on simple true faith that is very easy for "me" to make! Somehow it has been mad clear to me that President Monson nor anyone else can remove Our Lord from his position--

Misunderstanding on anyones part concerning the subject being beat to death in this thread does not demand abject panic on my part!

Bob

reese wrote: I found vs. 41 interesting. So is this saying that "receiving the covenent" is something more than just being ordained to any particular office in the priesthood? I tend think it would have to, as I don't see every man who has been ordained to this priesthood, possessing enough knowledge and therefore responsibility to become a son of perdition by turning 'therefrom'. It reminds me of Nephi talkng about the baptism by fire and the holy ghost holding someone responsible to the level of becoming a son of perdition if the were to deny it after receiving it. Clearly not every child being confirmed and told to receive the holy ghost is automatically BF&HG, and therefore accountable to that level. So it must be the same with being ordained with the priesthood, the ordination is just an invitation of sorts, and receiving the "covenant" would be the validation or activation of priesthood power? What do you think? And if that is the case how would one know that they have actually received the covenant?

Great question Reese. I tend to agree with your observation concerning accountability and responsibility. The Lord is merciful unto all his children and will allow us to walk before we start sprinting. That is why I think we need to be very careful in judging harshly any others according to the light and truth that we personally may have received. We are all at different levels in our spiritual journey and that difference should be respected and permitted.

As to the covenant I think the sanctification process in verse 33 is the key. When our hearts are changed through the spirit and we have no further disposition to do evil but desire to do good continually as King Benjamin's people talked about the Lord will further our journey and by his grace we can become sanctified and purified and as verse 7 in Mosiah 5 states: "ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons and his daughters: for behold this day he hath spiritually begotten you.. Therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

At that point we are ready to seek for those assurances of eternal life that the Lord awaits patiently to give us.

Indeed, Great question Reese, another great response Mark!

Bob

awake wrote:

patriotsaint wrote: Notice the prophet says "authority to administer in his name". Authority to administer what? The ordinances of the gospel. How are the ordinances administered? Through priesthood keys that are given to administer such. The Kingdom of God ceases to exist without the proper priesthood keys. These keys are given to the prophet who then delegates certain of those keys to different leaders in the Church.

It takes more than a good man who has been ordained to the priesthood for the Kingdom of God to be on the earth. Without keys how would priesthood authority be passed? Without keys how would any ordinance be performed? If the key holders apostatize, then a restoration is needed. You can't simply pass priesthood authority down the line without keys.

Joseph said "Where there is a prophet, priest 'or' a righteous man", so clearly he mean't that just a single righteous man who had been given the keys to baptize or to bless the sacrament, etc, could pass down that authority to do those ordinances, and keep the Kingdom of God alive.

Great job cherry picking the part of the quote that fits your belief system while ignoring the rest of it that doesn't. Who holds the keys of baptism and the sacrament? The Bishop does, but where did he receive them? They were delegated from the Stake President whose keys were delegated from the Prophet (via a 70 usually)

The point is that no priesthood holder holds or exercises keys independently. They are exercised by delegated authority.....so if the chain of authority is corrupted, so are the keys. So no, a righteous man cannot perform ordinances and keep the Kingdom alive independent of the presiding quorums of the Church unless a full blown restoration occurs through that man.

patriotsaint wrote: The point is that no priesthood holder holds or exercises keys independently. They are exercised by delegated authority.....so if the chain of authority is corrupted, so are the keys. So no, a righteous man cannot perform ordinances and keep the Kingdom alive independent of the presiding quorums of the Church unless a full blown restoration occurs through that man.

I do not understand why you don't accept Joseph's own words that are very clear.

But I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

awake wrote:

patriotsaint wrote: The point is that no priesthood holder holds or exercises keys independently. They are exercised by delegated authority.....so if the chain of authority is corrupted, so are the keys. So no, a righteous man cannot perform ordinances and keep the Kingdom alive independent of the presiding quorums of the Church unless a full blown restoration occurs through that man.

I do not understand why you don't accept Joseph's own words that are very clear.

But I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I don't understand why you reject his words that were two lines above the quote you cling to. You understand very little of priesthood government apparently.

Mark wrote:

reese wrote: I found vs. 41 interesting. So is this saying that "receiving the covenent" is something more than just being ordained to any particular office in the priesthood? I tend think it would have to, as I don't see every man who has been ordained to this priesthood, possessing enough knowledge and therefore responsibility to become a son of perdition by turning 'therefrom'. It reminds me of Nephi talkng about the baptism by fire and the holy ghost holding someone responsible to the level of becoming a son of perdition if the were to deny it after receiving it. Clearly not every child being confirmed and told to receive the holy ghost is automatically BF&HG, and therefore accountable to that level. So it must be the same with being ordained with the priesthood, the ordination is just an invitation of sorts, and receiving the "covenant" would be the validation or activation of priesthood power? What do you think? And if that is the case how would one know that they have actually received the covenant?

Great question Reese. I tend to agree with your observation concerning accountability and responsibility. The Lord is merciful unto all his children and will allow us to walk before we start sprinting. That is why I think we need to be very careful in judging harshly any others according to the light and truth that we personally may have received. We are all at different levels in our spiritual journey and that difference should be respected and permitted.

As to the covenant I think the sanctification process in verse 33 is the key. When our hearts are changed through the spirit and we have no further disposition to do evil but desire to do good continually as King Benjamin's people talked about the Lord will further our journey and by his grace we can become sanctified and purified and as verse 7 in Mosiah 5 states: "ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons and his daughters: for behold this day he hath spiritually begotten you.. Therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

At that point we are ready to seek for those assurances of eternal life that the Lord awaits patiently to give us.

Yeah Mark, I knew we could agree if we tried hard enough. :ymhug:
So after being sactified by the holy ghost, we are then on the path to the assurance of eternal life. I'm thinking that the culmination of that assurance is found in vs.22--seeing the face of God, even the Father, and living. Obviously it is. So is that when a full measure of priesthood is bestowed upon a person, or more accurately power in the priesthood? It seems that there must be endowments of power along the way until they all culminate it a full measure of power. Kind of like receiving more and more light until the perfect day.

It seems like everything thing leads to this perfect day. We arrive at this place and become members of the church of the firstborn, and therefore Zion. We receive a full measure of power in the priesthood from God, we have been sanctified by the holy ghost, and become the elect of God, sons and daughters of Christ. We have received the Father and the Son. And then we are the "fruit" that is meet for the Father to preserve and save at the last day!

Every other pursuit, no matter how good and noble, should be secondary to this one. As this is the only path that will lead to eternal life as heirs with Jesus Christ.

Thinker wrote:

coachmarc wrote:Fair enough. I do agree that nobody should place any man above God.

Thank you for being a peace-maker, CoachMarc.
I apologize if sometimes, in this thread, I've let my ego get in the way.
I've often felt the spirit as I write this - & have been amazed at what comes out... that's not to say you should accept everything I write.
ALWAYS QUESTION! As Joseph Smith taught, the truth will carve itself... study, ponder & pray for yourself.
And let me explain that church leaders are NOT either ALL good or ALL evil.
They, like you & me, are a mix of both.
The church is NOT either 100% true or 100% false, but a mix of both.

PLEASE, do not think it has to be one way or the other.
I've seen families torn apart because of this "bi-polar" thinking.
IMO, with all of the issues of the church, I still think it's the best "deal" out there - to help me raise my children.
Yes, I need to correct some teachings, but I value the goodness in the church.

And I value the goodness from church leaders...
"Continuous education is our labor, our business & our calling." -Brigham Young
"The deepest expression of spirituality is love." -Robert L. Simpson
"We need to remember that though we make our friends, God has made our neighbors - everywhere. Love should have no boundary; we should have no narrow loyalties." - Howard W. Hunter
"A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race." -Joseph Smith

"Where there is a need, I personally have a responsibility to help. There is little use asking who is my neighbor; I am neighbor to my neighbor in need." -Marion D. Hanks
"To be valiant... is to take the Lord's side on every issue." -Bruce R. McConckie
"God recognizes only one justification for seeking wealth, & that is with the express intent of helping the poor." -Hugh Nibley
"Pleasure usually take the form of 'me" & 'now,' while joy is 'us' & 'always.'" -Neal A. Maxwell
"In the final analysis, the gospel of God is written, not in the dead letters of the scriptural records, but in the lives of the Saints." -Bruce R . McConkie

I beg to differ...the Gospel is true 100%....the Church is just the vehicle by which the Gospel is taught.

reese wrote:

Mark wrote:

reese wrote: I found vs. 41 interesting. So is this saying that "receiving the covenent" is something more than just being ordained to any particular office in the priesthood? I tend think it would have to, as I don't see every man who has been ordained to this priesthood, possessing enough knowledge and therefore responsibility to become a son of perdition by turning 'therefrom'. It reminds me of Nephi talkng about the baptism by fire and the holy ghost holding someone responsible to the level of becoming a son of perdition if the were to deny it after receiving it. Clearly not every child being confirmed and told to receive the holy ghost is automatically BF&HG, and therefore accountable to that level. So it must be the same with being ordained with the priesthood, the ordination is just an invitation of sorts, and receiving the "covenant" would be the validation or activation of priesthood power? What do you think? And if that is the case how would one know that they have actually received the covenant?

Great question Reese. I tend to agree with your observation concerning accountability and responsibility. The Lord is merciful unto all his children and will allow us to walk before we start sprinting. That is why I think we need to be very careful in judging harshly any others according to the light and truth that we personally may have received. We are all at different levels in our spiritual journey and that difference should be respected and permitted.

As to the covenant I think the sanctification process in verse 33 is the key. When our hearts are changed through the spirit and we have no further disposition to do evil but desire to do good continually as King Benjamin's people talked about the Lord will further our journey and by his grace we can become sanctified and purified and as verse 7 in Mosiah 5 states: "ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons and his daughters: for behold this day he hath spiritually begotten you.. Therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

At that point we are ready to seek for those assurances of eternal life that the Lord awaits patiently to give us.

Yeah Mark, I knew we could agree if we tried hard enough. :ymhug:
So after being sactified by the holy ghost, we are then on the path to the assurance of eternal life. I'm thinking that the culmination of that assurance is found in vs.22--seeing the face of God, even the Father, and living. Obviously it is. So is that when a full measure of priesthood is bestowed upon a person, or more accurately power in the priesthood? It seems that there must be endowments of power along the way until they all culminate it a full measure of power. Kind of like receiving more and more light until the perfect day.

It seems like everything thing leads to this perfect day. We arrive at this place and become members of the church of the firstborn, and therefore Zion. We receive a full measure of power in the priesthood from God, we have been sanctified by the holy ghost, and become the elect of God, sons and daughters of Christ. We have received the Father and the Son. And then we are the "fruit" that is meet for the Father to preserve and save at the last day!

Every other pursuit, no matter how good and noble, should be secondary to this one. As this is the only path that will lead to eternal life as heirs with Jesus Christ.

Very beautifully put Reese. I will add one further thought. This marvelous experience may very well happen to an individual while on this side of the veil as it has with many righteous Saints throughout all generations of time. However it could also happen only after someone has completed their earthly mission and passed through the veil. All things are done according to the Fathers will. We must be willing to accept His will regardless of our own desires and patiently continue in that righteous pursuit. Enduring to the end may mean that those assurances come only after this trail of earthly tears is completed.

Mark wrote:

Mark wrote:

reese wrote: Yeah Mark, I knew we could agree if we tried hard enough. :ymhug:
So after being sactified by the holy ghost, we are then on the path to the assurance of eternal life. I'm thinking that the culmination of that assurance is found in vs.22--seeing the face of God, even the Father, and living. Obviously it is. So is that when a full measure of priesthood is bestowed upon a person, or more accurately power in the priesthood? It seems that there must be endowments of power along the way until they all culminate it a full measure of power. Kind of like receiving more and more light until the perfect day.

It seems like everything thing leads to this perfect day. We arrive at this place and become members of the church of the firstborn, and therefore Zion. We receive a full measure of power in the priesthood from God, we have been sanctified by the holy ghost, and become the elect of God, sons and daughters of Christ. We have received the Father and the Son. And then we are the "fruit" that is meet for the Father to preserve and save at the last day!

Every other pursuit, no matter how good and noble, should be secondary to this one. As this is the only path that will lead to eternal life as heirs with Jesus Christ.

Very beautifully put Reese. I will add one further thought. This marvelous experience may very well happen to an individual while on this side of the veil as it has with many righteous Saints throughout all generations of time. However it could also happen only after someone has completed their earthly mission and passed through the veil. All things are done according to the Fathers will. We must be willing to accept His will regardless of our own desires and patiently continue in that righteous pursuit. Enduring to the end may mean that those assurances come only after this trail of earthly tears is completed.

Wow, both well worded. Great thoughts, I needed to hear that.

-- Geoff

Mark wrote:

reese wrote:

Mark wrote:
Great question Reese. I tend to agree with your observation concerning accountability and responsibility. The Lord is merciful unto all his children and will allow us to walk before we start sprinting. That is why I think we need to be very careful in judging harshly any others according to the light and truth that we personally may have received. We are all at different levels in our spiritual journey and that difference should be respected and permitted.

As to the covenant I think the sanctification process in verse 33 is the key. When our hearts are changed through the spirit and we have no further disposition to do evil but desire to do good continually as King Benjamin's people talked about the Lord will further our journey and by his grace we can become sanctified and purified and as verse 7 in Mosiah 5 states: "ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons and his daughters: for behold this day he hath spiritually begotten you.. Therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

At that point we are ready to seek for those assurances of eternal life that the Lord awaits patiently to give us.

Yeah Mark, I knew we could agree if we tried hard enough. :ymhug:
So after being sactified by the holy ghost, we are then on the path to the assurance of eternal life. I'm thinking that the culmination of that assurance is found in vs.22--seeing the face of God, even the Father, and living. Obviously it is. So is that when a full measure of priesthood is bestowed upon a person, or more accurately power in the priesthood? It seems that there must be endowments of power along the way until they all culminate it a full measure of power. Kind of like receiving more and more light until the perfect day.

It seems like everything thing leads to this perfect day. We arrive at this place and become members of the church of the firstborn, and therefore Zion. We receive a full measure of power in the priesthood from God, we have been sanctified by the holy ghost, and become the elect of God, sons and daughters of Christ. We have received the Father and the Son. And then we are the "fruit" that is meet for the Father to preserve and save at the last day!

Every other pursuit, no matter how good and noble, should be secondary to this one. As this is the only path that will lead to eternal life as heirs with Jesus Christ.

Very beautifully put Reese. I will add one further thought. This marvelous experience may very well happen to an individual while on this side of the veil as it has with many righteous Saints throughout all generations of time. However it could also happen only after someone has completed their earthly mission and passed through the veil. All things are done according to the Fathers will. We must be willing to accept His will regardless of our own desires and patiently continue in that righteous pursuit. Enduring to the end may mean that those assurances come only after this trail of earthly tears is completed.

I was just talking to someone about this and they said you know in the temple the apron represents mortality. And the apron is never taken off, even while going through the veil. It is my greatest hope to part the veil while wearing my "earthly apron". You are right we must accept the Fathers will in all things. But surely he has restored his gospel with the express purpose of teaching us how to rend our veil of unbelief and see the face of God while in the flesh. Can I just say--I love this gospel.

patriotsaint wrote:
The point is that no priesthood holder holds or exercises keys independently. They are exercised by delegated authority.....so if the chain of authority is corrupted, so are the keys. So no, a righteous man cannot perform ordinances and keep the Kingdom alive independent of the presiding quorums of the Church unless a full blown restoration occurs through that man.

And John the Baptist? He did not have authority to baptize then?

Until Christ arrived John was the Priesthood Authority!

Bob