LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **April 5th, 2012, 2:31 pm**

awake wrote:
patriotsaint wrote: Nonsense. The sealing ordinance is not just a technicality. It is just as necessary as love and righteousness to an eternal marriage.
I did not say it wasn't necessary too, just that in and of itself, the ordinance has no power to make a marriage eternal if the couple isn't righteous and doesn't keep their vows.

Ok, sorry for jumping down your throat. I agree with that statement.

Posted: **April 5th, 2012, 2:41 pm**

patriotsaint wrote:
For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. (2 Nephi 32:5)
And what is the way we are to enter into in order to receive the Holy Ghost?

Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. (2 Nephi 31:17)

Yes, repentance and righteousness is one of the requirements to gain the Holy Ghost, and which will bring one the Holy Ghost, even before baptism, and baptism will in turn bring the HG in even greater abundance.

How do you explain the revelations and guidance and visitations that Joseph Smith received? Are you saying he didn't have the Holy Ghost?

Do you really think it's useless for most of the planet to pray, because they can't really receive answers to their prayers? (For it's impossible to receive answers to our prayers without the HG)

Do you really think that every time a non-member feels they have received an answer from God to their prayers it is really from the Adversary or their own mind?

Do you really believe that God would leave his children alone on earth with no way to receive his guidance and inspiration and help, while he knows they are being continually tempted by the Adversary to do evil? For most of his children now and through the ages have not had access or opportunity to the Gospel or baptism.

I'm sorry, but I know and have found what I believe to be true. I'm sorry, I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

Posted: **April 5th, 2012, 2:53 pm**

Looks like my question might have gone unnoticed on the previous page...

awake, you used to post on here as Amore Vero, right? I recognize the same style in your posts.

Just curious.

Posted: **April 5th, 2012, 3:10 pm**

awake wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:
For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. (2 Nephi 32:5)
And what is the way we are to enter into in order to receive the Holy Ghost?

Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. (2 Nephi 31:17)

Yes, repentance and righteousness is one of the requirements to gain the Holy Ghost, and which will bring one the Holy Ghost, even before baptism, which will in turn bring the HG in even greater abundance. I didn't see that taught in Nephi's sermon. Quote scripture and not your own opinion.

How do you explain the revelations and guidance and visitations that Joseph Smith received? Are you saying he didn't have the Holy Ghost? What revelation did he receive prior to baptism? Visitations are not the same thing as revelation from the HG. You should know the difference. And no, Joseph did not have the constant companionship of the HG until after he 'entered in by the gate' on May 15 1829. I believe this is why the urim and thumim were provided. Eventually Joseph did not use them any more.

Do you really think it's useless for most of the planet to pray, because they can't really receive answers to their prayers? (For it's impossible to receive answers to our prayers without the HG) I don't think it's useless to pray. I think God answers many prayers. Prayers for health, prayers for peace, prayers for safety, prayers for help. I do not believe however, that continuous revelation is given to those who have not recieved the gift of the Holy Ghost. It goes against scripture.

Do you really think that every time a non-member feels they have received an answer from God to their prayers it is really from the Adversary or their own mind? I explained this in a previous post

I'm sorry, but I know and have found what I believe to be true. I'm sorry, I guess we just have to agree to disagree.We may have to if you insist on giving your unsubstantiated opinion equal weight with the standard works and the words of living prophets.

Posted: **April 5th, 2012, 9:58 pm**

Well, the Israelites followed Moses for 40 years during a trek that could have lasted a fraction of that time and it wasn't Moses' fault. People today are still "wandering in the wilderness."

The better illustration with this example would be, if they had not wanted a prophet so bad, they could have walked with the Lord. They rejected the higher law. The Lord wanted to establish a people like Enochs. The Israelites settled for a man who would lead them.

Actually, the Israelites wandered for 40 years because they REFUSED TO TRUST THE LORD and conquer Canaan, when instead they believe the reports/fears of the ten cowardly spies. As a result, the Lord forbade anyone who was at THAT MOMENT older than 20 (except Joshua and Caleb - because they were they two faithful spies) to enter the Promised Land. This included Moses, Aaron, and Miriam because they did certain stupid mistakes - even though they were willing to obey the Lord and conquer Canaan. As a result, the next 40 years say all those Israelites being knocked off (some by old age, but any awful lot by God because of their sins). And yes, the Israelites proved themselves unworthy of the higher law that God gave Moses on Mt Sinai, because of the Golden Calf incident, so they got stuck with just the lesser priesthood, and the onerous trappings of the Law of Moses.

You are confusing this with the Isarelites rejecting inspired judges and instead desiring to be governed by a king, just like the other nations (and maybe get some idolatry action/fertility festivals on the side). They didn't want to have to live a noble-yet strait-laced gospel-based life and govern themselves. So the Lord told his prophet Samuel to give them a king. And look how kingships always ended up for Israel.

Posted: **April 5th, 2012, 11:39 pm**

Regarding the Lord sending outsiders like Samuel the Lamanite, Lehi, etc....there are a few of points to consider:

1) The then-current authorized prophets (Jeremiah, Nephi III) appeared to have validated the words of Samuel and Lehi, and these two outsiders NEVER contradicted the recognized leaders. And the 3 extra prophets from Lehi's time (Zenock, Zenos, Neum) also taught in harmony with Jeremiah. Also, In fact, Nephi baptized all those that believed on the words of Samuel the Lamanite. (35 years BEFORE the resurrected Christ told them to include STL's words in the sacred records).

2) Aside for the possible exception of the period from Adam-Noah, not until 1830 and Joseph Smith has God ever had a single organization to govern the entire world. Throughout history, God has always utilized separate colonies of righteous people, each with their own regional high priests/prophets. Ezekiel, Daniel, and Jeremiah all lived simultaneously, along with Lehi & Nephi. The Brother of Jared was contemporary to Noah's son Shem and his immediate descendants/patriarchal successors. When Paul was preaching, he went to the apostles at Jerusalem, he submitted himself to their judgement and leadership - and approved of his message. Even the resurrected Christ ordained 12 disciples/apostles to the Nephites, but while they were independent, even He stated they will be judged by the/subject to the 12 apostles at Jerusalem regarding their stewardships. I imagine similar patterns were put in place in Britain, Scandinavia, etc (wherever the Lord had colonies of righteous people).

In NONE of these and others places - did these outsiders ever contradict of condemn the lawful and OBVIOUSLY righteous church leadership (high priests at Jerusalem in NT and a few OT instances were blatantly corrupt - far worse than anything claimed here about LDS leadership). But even there, it appears the high priests of OT times were subordinate to the recognized prophet.

3) Abinadi was an outsider so far as we know. He may have come from Zarahemla, which was under the rule of King Mosiah - a righteous man of God. King Noah on the other hand, inherited the power of his father Zeniff's kingship, but Zeniff's only legitimacy to be king was that he was a decent man, and that he (appeared to be the leader of the 4-man delegation that appealed to the Lamanite king to be allowed to settle in the land). Zeniff may have gotten authority from Mosiah I (who was a seer) - but that is only speculation. The next we see is that Noah put down the priests his father appointed, and set up his own priests instead - ones that shared his own (lack of) values. While they were recognized by the people (and Abinadi) as being called priests, he also chastised them for not teaching the people righteousness. My take on this is that any authority the priests had was equivalent to the owner of a company appointing managers who were brown-nosers, and not competent people who might stand up to him. It appears that only if both the king AND the priests themselves are actually righteous, will God actually honor them and their office. So in this case, I see Abinadi with or without authority from Mosiah as challenging corrupt political figures - not once righteous church officials.

4. The Old Testament has a few instances of outsider false prophets, but they always were exposed by the presiding prophet/leader, and they always met a bad end. Even Baalam - some time after his donkey said "I see an angel with a sword!" - even he prophesied falsely, and took the side of an idolatrous heathen king, for which he was cursed by God.

5. In 3 Nephi 6-7, the ENTIRE Nephite nation & and church became corrupt, and those who were once high priests (leaders over branches of the church) secretly put to death those prophets who came among them calling them to repentance. - But through it all, Nephi III was recognized as THE Prophet / presiding High Priest (as was both Almas, both Helamans, and his own father Nephi). Of course this was a nightmare situation analogous to almost all of today's LDS Bishops and stake presidents (and maybe a few 70's) seeking to put to death the First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve, Presidency of the Seventy, most of the 70's, Presiding Bishopric, etc...

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 7:57 am**

patriotsaint wrote:Non members cannot "have the Spirit" as in gift of the Holy Ghost. Here is a quote from the Church's website explaining this concept:

Thinker wrote:How would you know, PatriotSaint?
Isn't "having the Spirit" as a companion more personal than clicking on a website of the church leader's perspectives?

patriotsaint wrote:Having the Spirit has nothing to do with clicking a website, so I don't really understand your question (or lack thereof).

Then, why did you quote & provide a link to the church's website explaining it?

patriotsaint wrote:As far as the doctrine regarding who is able to have the companionship of the Spirit it is quite clear. I know because it's what prophets speaking for the Lord have taught over the pulpit and I have a testimony of the restored gospel....including the role of prophets therein.

With each post you show yourself to be more ignorant of the gospel. When you do post scriptures they either don't apply to the topic or are taken out of context. I'm glad there are folks like Mark, Shadow and others that refute your unsound doctrinal ramblings.

These "ramblings" are quotes from Jesus Christ, who you supposedly prioritize over all, & who the church is named after.
Why do we have prophets, when God specifically commanded 1st of the 10 commandments: "THOU SHALT NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GODS BEFORE ME" ??
When we are children, our gods are our parents - whatever they say, we believe, we look to them for everything.
When we got older, many of us still longed for parental figures & found it in religious authorities.
Yet, now I realize that we are to not have any other gods before God, who is love/charity, the only thing that will never fail. -Moroni 7:47

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I now even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." -1Cor 13:11-13

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:02 am**

karen2cruise wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:
That's exactly what I explained in my previous post
Not really, becuase what came across from you was the non members could only have the Spirit of Christ not the Holy Ghost. What I get from the scriptures is the Holy Ghost is available to all, but not as a gift or "right". I feel that people like Martin Luther and others were given, at times, the Holy Ghost to be enlightened. Because they were inspired to see beyond their time it helped prepare the world for the Restoration.

I could give another lengthy example from my own family from a distant relative. The short story is he was inspired to do something that 100 years later helped me as a convert to do my family history. That was not the Light of Christ to know right from wrong, but inspiration from the Holy Ghost to do something, that at the time, seemed of little consequence. He was a spiritual man but was not a member of the LDS church.

Good points, Karen.
There are many beautiful people, filled with the spirit who happen to not be affilliated with our church.

"As Latter-day Saints we know no nationality; we belong to the kingdom of God." -Lorenzo Snow
We all belong to the kingdom of God... it is within each of us, as Jesus taught... & we are all spiritual brothers & sisters.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:05 am**

Stella Solaris wrote: After Christ, the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's teachings are where it's at, as far as I'm concerned, so nope; I have no interest in hangin' with any NOM's.

I'm glad you mentioned: AFTER CHRIST.
Christ, not prophets are our ideal.
And God, who is the pure love of Christ, should be our only aim of worship.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:10 am**

patriotsaint wrote:I hope you're right. Recent discussions on this site coupled with some experiences I've had in my own ward have me worried.

Good!
At least you're not just floating along, as if you've "arrived."
We are not meant to be "luke warm" - but to live & love with all of our hearts!
We are not meant to be followers... Jesus followed no "leaders" except for the spirit of God.
What worries me is the harrassment I & others have received for standing up for Jesus Christ's teachings.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:13 am**

awake wrote:Anyone on earth who prays and is righteous can receive answers to their prayers, which is revelation, which requires the Holy Ghost. The light of Christ is not what answers our prayers and gives us guidance. The light of Christ is our conscience and it can help us know right from wrong naturally, but it can't give us true revelation.

I know that countless non-members throughtout the world and the ages have received true revelation in answer to their prayers, not to mention have had visions and righteous visitations. I have known of them.

To say that non-members can't receive answers to their prayers is basically saying God can't give them instruction and can't answer their prayers, so why would he even command them to pray, especially when the Church wasn't even on the earth or available to them in their far away or communistic country?.

The non-member Joseph Smith not only received revelation because of his prayers, he even received a visitation from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. He was not an exception to the rule, the laws of the universe have no exceptions. Anyone can see Christ or receive revelation from him if they are righteous enough, no matter what religion they are or no religion at all.

BUT, if they know about the Gospel and about the requirement of baptism, they will agree to be baptized and then will be rewarded with an even greater blessing of the Holy Ghost, because of their righteous decision.

But that doesn't mean that 'no one on earth can't have the Holy Ghost' to guide them and give them answers to their prayers until they hear about and join our church, if they ever do, or if the Church is even on the earth at the time they live, for God would just not leave his children with no way to be guided by him and receive answers to their sincere righteous prayers.

Baptism is really just a technicality. While it is an ordinance that is required for all righteous people at least sometime in this life or the next, baptism itself has no power to give someone the Holy Ghost if they are not truly worthy of it and righteous. It is 'righteousness' that really gives one the possession of the Holy Ghost. But obeying the commandment to be baptized and make those covenants, gives one an even 'greater' abundance of the Holy Ghost then what they had previously. Many people get baptized into the Church without ever receiving the Holy Ghost, because they really aren't worthy of it.

The same goes with the ordinance of 'sealing'. Any righteous couple on earth of any religion or no religion at all, is guaranteed that their marriage will be eternal if they love each other and are righteousness and keep their vows. When they are offered the opportunity to accept the Gospel and have their marriage officially 'sealed', in this life or the next, they will of course do so, because their will know it's right. So even though being 'sealed' is necessary at some point, it is just a technicality, the 'sealing ordinance' is not what makes their marriage eternal, the love and righteousness between them is what really makes their marriage eternal.

Many great points, Awake!
God is no respector of persons.
The temple, although used to make money by the church, also can be beautiful spiritual tools.
Some use other spiritual tools - like biblomacy - where you pray or think about something, open up the scriptures to find an answer.
Some use nature to connect with God.
Some love themselves as others, to connect with God.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:16 am**

patriotsaint wrote:Nonsense.

When you limit truth to a box dictated by others of acceptable truths, everything outside that box will be considered nonsense.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:17 am**

Why do we have prophets, when God specifically commanded 1st of the 10 commandments: "THOU SHALT NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GODS BEFORE ME" ??
When we are children, our gods are our parents - whatever they say, we believe, we look to them for everything.
When we got older, many of us still longed for parental figures & found it in religious authorities.
Yet, now I realize that we are to not have any other gods before God, who is love/charity, the only thing that will never fail.

I think I have you figured out thinker. You equate having and giving heed to living prophets in the Lords church to the worshipping of false Gods? Wow! What kind of convoluted thinking is that? You single-handedly eliminated a basic premise of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ with this kind of thinking. Am I reading you right here? Do you really feel this way?

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:24 am**

Mark,
Isn't the 1st commandment clear? "THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."

Look, I understand you may have believed this way your entire life, & maybe generations before you in your family have.
It's not easy to give up old beliefs ("old wine bottles") - but there is "good news" - something better!

I just read a relevant quote by Kathy Freston: "False gods will always be exposed for what they are - hollow promises of deliverance."
Don't you see, Mark?
If you trust in anything besides God (charity/love)... it will fail - prophets, prophecies - it will all fail!
Only trust in God... in GOoDness... in that which inspires to love others as ourselves.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:39 am**

Thinker wrote:Mark,
Isn't the 1st commandment clear? "THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."

Look, I understand you may have believed this way your entire life, & maybe generations before you in your family have.
It's not easy to give up old beliefs ("old wine bottles") - but there is "good news" - something better!

I just read a relevant quote by Kathy Freston: "False gods will always be exposed for what they are - hollow promises of deliverance."
Don't you see, Mark?
If you trust in anything besides God (charity/love)... it will fail - prophets, prophecies - it will all fail!
Only trust in God... in GOoDness... in that which inspires to love others as ourselves.

Let me ask you something Thinker. Do you believe that Joseph Smith was in fact the Prophet Seer and Revelator in this dispensation of time that God used to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ back to the earth?

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:40 am**

Thinker wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Nonsense.
When you limit truth to a box dictated by others of acceptable truths, everything outside that box will be considered nonsense.

Again you make no point nor do you provide any supporting evidence....and you wonder why I don't take anything you say remotely serious.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 8:43 am**

Thinker wrote:These "ramblings" are quotes from Jesus Christ

If you're so interested in what Christ has to say...then why do you blatantly ignore his words I have quoted to you that don't fit into your paradigm? The quotes from Christ aren't ramblings, but your twisted and incorrect interpretation and application of his words sure are.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 9:29 am**

I don't know anyone in church who considers any prophet to be God or any god. Moses wasn't a god. Noah wasn't a god, neither was Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, Ammon, Aaron, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Thomas S. Monson, etc.

But they all have been called of God by prophecy to lead God's people. Plain and simple. Christ's "church" since the days of our first prophet, Adam, has ALWAYS been led by a prophet. Christ built his church upon the foundation of apostles and prophets as we read in Ephesians. Anyone who fights against them is NOT of God. Anyone who doubts these prophets also doubts God. They may think that they "believe in God" but they simply don't "believe God." And if they do "believe God" then they do NOT understand God.

From the Old Testament:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 9:36 am**

I wish both Awake and Thinker would:

1. tell if they are "active" members of the LDS church

and even then if

2. They will admit that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ who helped restore the church in these latter-days, that Thomas S Monson is the true and living prophet of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints AND that the Book of Mormon is the true word of God.

If you cant, then I dont know why you are on a forum called LDSFreedom forum, unless you come to cause confusion or contention. Being an imperfect person I know better than to criticize the church or it's leaders, as it is a path I will not follow. I will not cherry pick what I will or will not follow based on my "personal revelation" as Satan has tricked me before.

Your abilities to analyze, intellectualize and pontificate reminds me of Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a asinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 9:40 am**

coachmarc wrote:I don't know anyone in church who considers any prophet to be God or any god. Moses wasn't a god. Noah wasn't a god, neither was Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, Ammon, Aaron, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Thomas S. Monson, etc.

But they all have been called of God by prophecy to lead God's people. Plain and simple. Christ's "church" since the days of our first prophet, Adam, has ALWAYS been led by a prophet. Christ built his church upon the foundation of apostles and prophets as we read in Ephesians. Anyone who fights against them is NOT of God. Anyone who doubts these prophets also doubts God. They may think that they "believe in God" but they simply don't "believe God." And if they do "believe God" then they do NOT understand God.

From the Old Testament:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Thanks Marc. I thought every member of the church understood this?

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 9:43 am**

karen2cruise wrote:I wish both Awake and Thinker would:

1. tell if they are "active" members of the LDS church

and even then if

2. They will admit that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ who helped restore the church in these latter-days, that Thomas S Monson is the true and living prophet of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints AND that the Book of Mormon is the true word of God.

If you cant, then I dont know why you are on a forum called LDSFreedom forum, unless you come to cause confusion or contention. Being an imperfect person I know better than to criticize the church or it's leaders, as it is a path I will not follow. I will not cherry pick what I will or will not follow based on my "personal revelation" as Satan has tricked me before.

Your abilities to analyze, intellectualize and pontificate reminds me of Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a asinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 9:49 am**

Mark wrote:
coachmarc wrote:I don't know anyone in church who considers any prophet to be God or any god. Moses wasn't a god. Noah wasn't a god, neither was Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, Ammon, Aaron, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Thomas S. Monson, etc.

But they all have been called of God by prophecy to lead God's people. Plain and simple. Christ's "church" since the days of our first prophet, Adam, has ALWAYS been led by a prophet. Christ built his church upon the foundation of apostles and prophets as we read in Ephesians. Anyone who fights against them is NOT of God. Anyone who doubts these prophets also doubts God. They may think that they "believe in God" but they simply don't "believe God." And if they do "believe God" then they do NOT understand God.

From the Old Testament:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Thanks Marc. I thought every member of the church understood this?

Apparently not all. And they are either misguided or blatantly leading others away. I am reminded of Alma and the four sons of Mosiah who went about destroying testimonies of the faithful.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 10:02 am**

Thinker wrote:We are not meant to be followers... Jesus followed no "leaders" except for the spirit of God.

Well, I am a sheep (or try to be) and I am proud to follow my Shepherd....as well as give heed to the counsel of his undershepherds that have been called to watch over the flock

Thinker wrote:What worries me is the harrassment I & others have received for standing up for Jesus Christ's teachings.

You haven't been harassed, but your incorrect teachings have been refuted. If you don't like that, then quit teaching false doctrine. Cherry picking a few of Christs's words and taking them out of context, while ignoring other things he has said is not standing up for Christ's teachings.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 10:43 am**

coachmarc wrote:
Mark wrote:
coachmarc wrote:I don't know anyone in church who considers any prophet to be God or any god. Moses wasn't a god. Noah wasn't a god, neither was Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, Ammon, Aaron, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Thomas S. Monson, etc.

But they all have been called of God by prophecy to lead God's people. Plain and simple. Christ's "church" since the days of our first prophet, Adam, has ALWAYS been led by a prophet. Christ built his church upon the foundation of apostles and prophets as we read in Ephesians. Anyone who fights against them is NOT of God. Anyone who doubts these prophets also doubts God. They may think that they "believe in God" but they simply don't "believe God." And if they do "believe God" then they do NOT understand God.

From the Old Testament:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Thanks Marc. I thought every member of the church understood this?
Apparently not all. And they are either misguided or blatantly leading others away. I am reminded of Alma and the four sons of Mosiah who went about destroying testimonies of the faithful.

I hear you Marc. Either way it is not a legacy I would want to leave for all to see.

Posted: **April 6th, 2012, 12:27 pm**

laronius wrote: If my understanding is correct, the calling of prophet comes with the office of president of the high priesthood. Since a priesthood leader can receive revelation on behalf of those under his stewardship, and the president of the high priesthood is essentially over the whole church and earth, he therefore can receive revelation for the world. The apostles as a quorum also hold the same keys and authority as the prophet so when THE prophet dies, the quorum of the twelve apostles have the authority to receive revelation as to who the next prophet will be. I think that is probably why Joseph Smith said to always go with the majority of the quorum because they in essence are filling the role of prophet when an official prophet/president is not in place.

That makes sense. Thank you.

Edit: I just read your answer, Thinker. Thanks for your input (and anyone else who answered who I have not remembered to mention.)

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Re: Like Pharisees?

Re: Like Pharisees?

Re: Like Pharisees?