Like Pharisees?

[Thinker]

The better illustration with this example would be, if they had not wanted a prophet so bad, they could have walked with the Lord. They rejected the higher law. The Lord wanted to establish a people like Enochs. The Israelites settled for a man who would lead them.

Back to the first example, Nephi, he saw the prophet's example, and prayed about it. He followed Lehi. After that he progressed on his own. He progressed so far that at times HE received revelation and direction for the family instead of Lehi. Of course he was deferential to his father, even asking him where to go to find food. But Nephi did not rely on Lehi, Nephi relied on the Lord.

Nephi concludes his writings with the one true path, the Doctrine of Christ. Faith-> Repentance-> Baptism -> Holy Ghost-> Angels-> Christ-> Father. There is no man in that path.

I'm not antagonistic towards the leaders. I watched conference. But I think they are being used as a crutch too often. And when I have a question, my default is not, "What has the Church said about the matter?" or "What as a GA said about the matter?" The question is brought to God.

Excellent points!
"Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."-Exodus 20:3

[shadow]

) I realize you're not a man, you're much too kind!
And if you read my last paragragh from the above quote you'll see that I acknowledge that being called to repentance can come from those outside the church. But the calling to "warn and lead" will come from someone with that stewardship, someone with keys and authority. Someone like that in this world will come from the church. And that, my sis, is part of the test!

I agree with you shadow. If someone comes to set this church in order it will be a member of this church. I however, don't think it will necessarily be anyone in leadership. If it is going to be any kind of test, it would need to be someone obscure. Someone who people have to actually know the words of Christ in order to recognize the message. And the message will be to repent and return to God and nothing else. I think the spirit will take it from there. And anyone, like you said, within or without the church can give a message of repent and return to the Lord. It will then be up the those receiving the message to have the spirit be their guide for the next step....

I don't know about that Reese, it seems contrary to what Joseph Smith taught-
“The Presidents or [First] Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church, are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven, and the power and privilege of [the Melchizedek] Priesthood. It is also the privilege of any officer in this Church to obtain revelations, so far as relates to his particular calling and duty in the Church.”

“We do not consider ourselves bound to receive any revelation from any one man or woman without his being legally constituted and ordained to that authority, and giving sufficient proof of it.

“… It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”


D&C 42:11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

In my opinion, especially after watching GC last weekend, the Lord's prophets and apostles and other leaders are already warning and leading us. It's up to us individually to take their words and run with them. A prophets role isn't to force us to Christ, but to invite and direct us. The invitations with directions are certainly there!

[patriotsaint]

Where is your scriptural proof? All you have done is restate your opinion here, which I have shown is contrary to the teachings of the Church. I think you are confusing the Holy Ghost with the Light or Spirit of Christ. For more info on the Light of Christ check here.

D&C 130:23 man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

A person may be temporarily guided by the Holy Ghost without receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost However, this guidance will not be continuous unless the person is baptized and receives the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

“There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him. [See Acts 10:1–48.] Until he obeyed these ordinances and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, according to the order of God, he could not have healed the sick or commanded an evil spirit to come out of a man, and it obey him; for the spirits might say unto him, as they did to the sons of Sceva: ‘Paul we know and Jesus we know, but who are ye?’ [See Acts 19:13–15.]”15 (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 97).

That's exactly what I explained in my previous post

[patriotsaint]

Joseph Smith taught that we 'can' and 'should' all be prophets and prophetesses. So that means there is no truth or revelation or vision or visitation that we can't receive from Heavenly Father if we are worthy, even mysteries.

Joseph also proved that it doesn't take a baptized member to become a prophet and see Christ and other heavenly messengers.

Thus non-members can have the Spirit and receive just as much revelation as any member, if they are worthy, but somewhere along the line that revelation will of course lead them to the restored Church.

But even being a prophet or prophetess doesn't mean they are to lead the whole church or make decisions for it, that is given to one specific prophet who is called by God to do so.

But truth is truth, and thus any true revelation or truth any righteous person receives is always helpful to anyone who can discern it's truth and learn and be warned. We are commanded to warn others once we have been warned by the Spirit.

The prophet Samuel the Lamanite came out of nowhere and was told to warn the people. Any righteous person can be inspired to do that.

But we must have the Holy Spirit as our guide to be able to discern truth from error from any source whatsoever.

Non members cannot "have the Spirit" as in gift of the Holy Ghost. Here is a quote from the Church's website explaining this concept:

How would you know, PatriotSaint?
Isn't "having the Spirit" as a companion more personal than clicking on a website of the church leader's perspectives?

Having the Spirit has nothing to do with clicking a website, so I don't really understand your question (or lack thereof).

As far as the doctrine regarding who is able to have the companionship of the Spirit it is quite clear. I know because it's what prophets speaking for the Lord have taught over the pulpit and I have a testimony of the restored gospel....including the role of prophets therein.

With each post you show yourself to be more ignorant of the gospel. When you do post scriptures they either don't apply to the topic or are taken out of context. I'm glad there are folks like Mark, Shadow and others that refute your unsound doctrinal ramblings.

[patriotsaint]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now. Many here seem to be going down that road in their own personal lives. If you go to the new order mormon forum page you will see the many similarities of thought that have been present here for some time on this forum.Just part of the sifting process that will continue to occur in the church. Nothing new.. :ymsigh:


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who knew the sifting process could be so painful? I sincerely hope that the demographics on this forum aren't representative of the church at large.....if so we're in trouble. As you said in your other post, "apostasy lite" would be a great way to describe their doctrinal leanings.

[Raindrop]

Who knew the sifting process could be so painful?

Only dirt needs to fear the broom.

[karen2cruise]

That's exactly what I explained in my previous post

Not really, becuase what came across from you was the non members could only have the Spirit of Christ not the Holy Ghost. What I get from the scriptures is the Holy Ghost is available to all, but not as a gift or "right". I feel that people like Martin Luther and others were given, at times, the Holy Ghost to be enlightened. Because they were inspired to see beyond their time it helped prepare the world for the Restoration.

I could give another lengthy example from my own family from a distant relative. The short story is he was inspired to do something that 100 years later helped me as a convert to do my family history. That was not the Light of Christ to know right from wrong, but inspiration from the Holy Ghost to do something, that at the time, seemed of little consequence. He was a spiritual man but was not a member of the LDS church.

[Mark]

) I realize you're not a man, you're much too kind!
And if you read my last paragragh from the above quote you'll see that I acknowledge that being called to repentance can come from those outside the church. But the calling to "warn and lead" will come from someone with that stewardship, someone with keys and authority. Someone like that in this world will come from the church. And that, my sis, is part of the test!

I agree with you shadow. If someone comes to set this church in order it will be a member of this church. I however, don't think it will necessarily be anyone in leadership. If it is going to be any kind of test, it would need to be someone obscure. Someone who people have to actually know the words of Christ in order to recognize the message. And the message will be to repent and return to God and nothing else. I think the spirit will take it from there. And anyone, like you said, within or without the church can give a message of repent and return to the Lord. It will then be up the those receiving the message to have the spirit be their guide for the next step....

You are completely misunderstanding the Lords system that he has set up for the Saints "Sister" reese. :ymblushing: Once again go back to the scripture that Shadow quoted earlier:

D&C 42:11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

This is a critical concept to understand in the church. The Lord works through a well defined and organized system of church govt. set up by him to maintain order in his house. He will not go outside this system just to test us.

Joseph Smith taught this principle and every other prophet since him has also taught this. We do not need to fear that some guy off the street is going to come along and take over as the Lords mouthpiece to his saints asking us to do that which is contrary to the current system now in place. It just won't happen.

This is what has gotten a lot of people into trouble. They are waiting for some unknown party to come along and put the church back in order. This is false doctrine taught by deceivers who want to mislead the Saints. The Manti group believed this wholeheartedly and they rejected the Prophets and the church because of their pride. Don't fall for that garbage because you will be deceived if you do.

PS Sorry Shadow I didn't see your last post. Great minds think alike. :-B

[EmmaLee]

I think I would disagree that the people here posting are new order mormons. From my readings on newordermormon.org, it seems that they do not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, and many other doctrines taught during the restoration.

Many of the nontraditional comments made here are by those who do believe in the Book of Mormon, believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, and believe all the doctrines of the Restoration.

The difference I see is, most do not believe there is a duty to follow the leadership in nonspiritual matters.

I could be wrong. Any New Order Mormons willing to self-identify?

I'd never even heard of "New Order Mormons/NOM" until I read Mark's post on this thread talking about them, complete with a link to their website. After Christ, the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's teachings are where it's at, as far as I'm concerned, so nope; I have no interest in hangin' with any NOM's.

[Mark]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now. Many here seem to be going down that road in their own personal lives. If you go to the new order mormon forum page you will see the many similarities of thought that have been present here for some time on this forum.Just part of the sifting process that will continue to occur in the church. Nothing new.. :ymsigh:


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who knew the sifting process could be so painful? I sincerely hope that the demographics on this forum aren't representative of the church at large.....if so we're in trouble. As you said in your other post, "apostasy lite" would be a great way to describe their doctrinal leanings.

I don't see that to be the case patriot. Most of the Saints I meet in the areas I frequent are very committed to remaining faithful in their testimonies of the church and would never speak ill of the Lords annointed Prophets at any time. Like I said before, I think this site is getting a lot of new order mormons coming to it just to shake things up. Thinker already admitted that he visited and posted in that group in the past. I don't think he is alone here by any means. :-s

[WhereCanITurn4Peace]

I don't mean to de-rail the thread, but I wanted to ask a question...

awake, you used to post on here as Amore Vero, right? I recognize the same style in your posts.

[reese]

You are completely misunderstanding the Lords system that he has set up for the Saints "Sister" reese. :ymblushing: Once again go back to the scripture that Shadow quoted earlier:

D&C 42:11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

This is a critical concept to understand in the church. The Lord works through a well defined and organized system of church govt. set up by him to maintain order in his house. He will not go outside this system just to test us. Well maybe. I just can't put all of my eggs in this basket. And the reason why is that the Lord has always done just that, gone outside of his established 'house'. I can't ignore that. Why would he not do the same thing to us? Is it because he established his church? Because we have the priesthood? I can't see why we would not be put through the same tests that others have.

Joseph Smith taught this principle and every other prophet since him has also taught this. We do not need to fear that some guy off the street is going to come along and take over as the Lords mouthpiece to his saints asking us to do that which is contrary to the current system now in place. It just won't happen. I don't fear that some guy off the street will come along and take over the Lord's mouthpiece. Quite the contrary actually. I think a servant of God would never upset the order in the Lord's church. He wouldn't have to. His mission would be to call others to repentance. That should not conflict with the leaderships message in any way.

This is what has gotten a lot of people into trouble. They are waiting for some unknown party to come along and put the church back in order. This is false doctrine taught by deceivers who want to mislead the Saints. The Manti group believed this wholeheartedly and they rejected the Prophets and the church because of their pride. Don't fall for that garbage because you will be deceived if you do.I don't really know anything about all of this, so I assume you are right. All I do know is that if a message is from Christ, those with the holy spirit as their guide will recognize it, and will not be deceived. I don't care who carries a message from Christ. If they are his words, the person saying them does not matter to me in the least.

PS Sorry Shadow I didn't see your last post. Great minds think alike. :-B

[Raindrop]

I'd never even heard of "New Order Mormons/NOM" until I read Mark's post on this thread talking about them, complete with a link to their website. . .

Ditto. I don't have a clue who the "Manti group" he constantly brings up is, either. Or Harmster. But I don't really care. It makes no point except showing he can't handle active LDSs asking about certain things.

[patriotsaint]

That's exactly what I explained in my previous post

Not really, becuase what came across from you was the non members could only have the Spirit of Christ not the Holy Ghost. What I get from the scriptures is the Holy Ghost is available to all, but not as a gift or "right". I feel that people like Martin Luther and others were given, at times, the Holy Ghost to be enlightened. Because they were inspired to see beyond their time it helped prepare the world for the Restoration.

I could give another lengthy example from my own family from a distant relative. The short story is he was inspired to do something that 100 years later helped me as a convert to do my family history. That was not the Light of Christ to know right from wrong, but inspiration from the Holy Ghost to do something, that at the time, seemed of little consequence. He was a spiritual man but was not a member of the LDS church.

I stated clearly that people can be touched by the HG to receive a witness of truth, but they don't have the ability to receive continuous revelation before confirmation. If that were the case, what is the point of being confirmed? Do I believe that some people that aren't members of the Church may be influenced in isolated instances by the Holy Ghost? Sure....but that is the exception and not the norm.

[patriotsaint]

Who knew the sifting process could be so painful?

Only dirt needs to fear the broom.

Who said anything about fear? I had this in mind:

But behold, I am consigned that these are my days, and that my soul shall be filled with sorrow because of this the wickedness of my brethren. (Hel 7:9)

[Baron]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now. Many here seem to be going down that road in their own personal lives. If you go to the new order mormon forum page you will see the many similarities of thought that have been present here for some time on this forum.Just part of the sifting process that will continue to occur in the church. Nothing new.. :ymsigh:


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who knew the sifting process could be so painful? I sincerely hope that the demographics on this forum aren't representative of the church at large.....if so we're in trouble. As you said in your other post, "apostasy lite" would be a great way to describe their doctrinal leanings.

I don't see that to be the case patriot. Most of the Saints I meet in the areas I frequent are very committed to remaining faithful in their testimonies of the church and would never speak ill of the Lords annointed Prophets at any time. Like I said before, I think this site is getting a lot of new order mormons coming to it just to shake things up. Thinker already admitted that he visited and posted in that group in the past. I don't think he is alone here by any means. :-s

What is the definition of a "new order" Mormon? I haven't heard that one before.

[karen2cruise]

That's exactly what I explained in my previous post

Not really, becuase what came across from you was the non members could only have the Spirit of Christ not the Holy Ghost. What I get from the scriptures is the Holy Ghost is available to all, but not as a gift or "right". I feel that people like Martin Luther and others were given, at times, the Holy Ghost to be enlightened. Because they were inspired to see beyond their time it helped prepare the world for the Restoration.

I could give another lengthy example from my own family from a distant relative. The short story is he was inspired to do something that 100 years later helped me as a convert to do my family history. That was not the Light of Christ to know right from wrong, but inspiration from the Holy Ghost to do something, that at the time, seemed of little consequence. He was a spiritual man but was not a member of the LDS church.

I stated clearly that people can be touched by the HG to receive a witness of truth, but they don't have the ability to receive continuous revelation before confirmation. If that were the case, what is the point of being confirmed? Do I believe that some people that aren't members of the Church may be influenced in isolated instances by the Holy Ghost? Sure....but that is the exception and not the norm.

Okie dokie...we're on the same page then.

[patriotsaint]

I don't fear that some guy off the street will come along and take over the Lord's mouthpiece. Quite the contrary actually. I think a servant of God would never upset the order in the Lord's church. He wouldn't have to. His mission would be to call others to repentance. That should not conflict with the leaderships message in any way.[/color]

This line of reasoning doesn't make sense reese. If the leadership of the Church is doing their job and calling people to repentance, why would we need someone else to do that job? On the other hand, if the leadership is not doing their job and someone else is needed to cry repentance, wouldn't the message conflict with that of the leaders?

[Mark]

I'd never even heard of "New Order Mormons/NOM" until I read Mark's post on this thread talking about them, complete with a link to their website. . .

Ditto. I don't have a clue who the "Manti group" he constantly brings up is, either. Or Harmster. But I don't really care. It makes no point except showing he can't handle active LDSs asking about certain things.

Thats a good one Raindrop. How do you know everyone on this site is an active LDS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Baron]

I don't fear that some guy off the street will come along and take over the Lord's mouthpiece. Quite the contrary actually. I think a servant of God would never upset the order in the Lord's church. He wouldn't have to. His mission would be to call others to repentance. That should not conflict with the leaderships message in any way.[/color]

This line of reasoning doesn't make sense reese. If the leadership of the Church is doing their job and calling people to repentance, why would we need someone else to do that job? On the other hand, if the leadership is not doing there job and someone else is needed to cry repentance, wouldn't the message conflict with that of the leaders?

Not to mention that when the current leaders are testifying of Christ, encouraging all to become disciplines, and to strive to obtain the character of Christ of which all is testified of by the Spirit when they do so. Then how can one extrapolate that some guy off the street needs to come in and steady the ark?

Isn't that extremely dangerous ground to be standing upon?

[patriotsaint]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now. Many here seem to be going down that road in their own personal lives. If you go to the new order mormon forum page you will see the many similarities of thought that have been present here for some time on this forum.Just part of the sifting process that will continue to occur in the church. Nothing new.. :ymsigh:


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who knew the sifting process could be so painful? I sincerely hope that the demographics on this forum aren't representative of the church at large.....if so we're in trouble. As you said in your other post, "apostasy lite" would be a great way to describe their doctrinal leanings.

I don't see that to be the case patriot. Most of the Saints I meet in the areas I frequent are very committed to remaining faithful in their testimonies of the church and would never speak ill of the Lords annointed Prophets at any time. Like I said before, I think this site is getting a lot of new order mormons coming to it just to shake things up. Thinker already admitted that he visited and posted in that group in the past. I don't think he is alone here by any means. :-s

I hope you're right. Recent discussions on this site coupled with some experiences I've had in my own ward have me worried.

[awake]

Anyone on earth who prays and is righteous can receive answers to their prayers, which is revelation, which requires the Holy Ghost. The light of Christ is not what answers our prayers and gives us guidance. The light of Christ is our conscience and it can help us know right from wrong naturally, but it can't give us true revelation.

I know that countless non-members throughtout the world and the ages have received true revelation in answer to their prayers, not to mention have had visions and righteous visitations. I have known of them.

To say that non-members can't receive answers to their prayers is basically saying God can't give them instruction and can't answer their prayers, so why would he even command them to pray, especially when the Church wasn't even on the earth or available to them in their far away or communistic country?.

The non-member Joseph Smith not only received revelation because of his prayers, he even received a visitation from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. He was not an exception to the rule, the laws of the universe have no exceptions. Anyone can see Christ or receive revelation from him if they are righteous enough, no matter what religion they are or no religion at all.

BUT, if they know about the Gospel and about the requirement of baptism, they will agree to be baptized and then will be rewarded with an even greater blessing of the Holy Ghost, because of their righteous decision.

But that doesn't mean that 'no one on earth can't have the Holy Ghost' to guide them and give them answers to their prayers until they hear about and join our church, if they ever do, or if the Church is even on the earth at the time they live, for God would just not leave his children with no way to be guided by him and receive answers to their sincere righteous prayers.

Baptism is really just a technicality. While it is an ordinance that is required for all righteous people at least sometime in this life or the next, baptism itself has no power to give someone the Holy Ghost if they are not truly worthy of it and righteous. It is 'righteousness' that really gives one the possession of the Holy Ghost. But obeying the commandment to be baptized and make those covenants, gives one an even 'greater' abundance of the Holy Ghost then what they had previously. Many people get baptized into the Church without ever receiving the Holy Ghost, because they really aren't worthy of it.

The same goes with the ordinance of 'sealing'. Any righteous couple on earth of any religion or no religion at all, is guaranteed that their marriage will be eternal if they love each other and are righteousness and keep their vows. When they are offered the opportunity to accept the Gospel and have their marriage officially 'sealed', in this life or the next, they will of course do so, because their will know it's right. So even though being 'sealed' is necessary at some point, it is just a technicality, the 'sealing ordinance' is not what makes their marriage eternal, the love and righteousness between them is what really makes their marriage eternal.

[patriotsaint]

The same goes with the ordinance of 'sealing'. Any righteous couple on earth of any religion or no religion at all, is guaranteed that their marriage will be eternal if they love each other and are righteousness. When they are offered the opportunity to accept the Gospel and have their marriage officially 'sealed', in this life or the next, they will of course do so, because their will know it's right. So even though being 'sealed' is necessary at some point, it is just a technicality, the 'sealing ordinance' is not what makes their marriage eternal, the love and righteousness between them is what really makes their marriage eternal.

Nonsense. The sealing ordinance is not just a technicality. It is just as necessary as love and righteousness to an eternal marriage.

[patriotsaint]

Anyone on earth who prays and is righteous can receive answers to their prayers, which is revelation, which requires the Holy Ghost. The light of Christ is not what answers our prayers and gives us guidance. The light of Christ is our conscience and it can help us know right from wrong naturally, but it can't give us true revelation.

Well if we can all receive revelation without the gift of the holy ghost, what is the point of confirmation? You're indulging in wishful thinking because it gives you a warm fuzzy, but your assertion has no doctrinal foundation. You need to go back and read the sermon of Nephi at the end of 2 Nephi. What does he tell us about this?

For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. (2 Nephi 32:5)

And what is the way we are to enter into in order to receive the Holy Ghost?

Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. (2 Nephi 31:17)

Entering in by the way (repentance and baptism) is required prior to receiving the HG according to Nephi, and it is only when we have received the gift of the Holy Ghost that he can "show unto [us] all things what [we] should do".

[awake]

Nonsense. The sealing ordinance is not just a technicality. It is just as necessary as love and righteousness to an eternal marriage.

I did not say it wasn't necessary too, just that in and of itself, the ordinance has no power to make a marriage eternal if the couple isn't righteous and doesn't keep their vows.