Like Pharisees?

[Mark]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now. Many here seem to be going down that road in their own personal lives. If you go to the new order mormon forum page you will see the many similarities of thought that have been present here for some time on this forum.Just part of the sifting process that will continue to occur in the church. Nothing new.. :ymsigh:


http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just checked out the link. What exactly is a "New Order Mormon"????

Perhaps "apostate light" might best describe this new "enlightenment" movement marc. And the beat goes on..

http://www.newordermormon.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[marc]

Thank you, Mark. I will be making a post soon, hopefully by this weekend, regarding Nephi's longsuffering and repeated attempts at trying to get through to his older brothers, Laman and Lemuel. New Order Mormons, keep an eye out.

[ATL Wake]

Just a word to the wise patriot. This site now has a lot of new order mormon influence on it now.

I think I would disagree that the people here posting are new order mormons. From my readings on newordermormon.org, it seems that they do not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, and many other doctrines taught during the restoration.

Many of the nontraditional comments made here are by those who do believe in the Book of Mormon, believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, and believe all the doctrines of the Restoration.

The difference I see is, most do not believe there is a duty to follow the leadership in nonspiritual matters.

I could be wrong. Any New Order Mormons willing to self-identify?

[ATL Wake]

Thank you, Mark. I will be making a post soon, hopefully by this weekend, regarding Nephi's longsuffering and repeated attempts at trying to get through to his older brothers, Laman and Lemuel. New Order Mormons, keep an eye out.

I am not sure that would do much good. Those here who do not believe it necessary to "follow the prophet" as traditionally viewed, realize if there is no man to follow, there is only the Lord to follow, and that necessitates much prayer.

The fruits of Nephi's prayers began with feeling the spirit, increased faith, visions, angelic ministries, and ultimately to the presence of Christ. So the questions is, if you are not receiving visions and angelic ministries, are you on the same path as Nephi?

[7cylon7]

Non members cannot "have the Spirit" as in gift of the Holy Ghost. Here is a quote from the Church's website explaining this concept:

The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.

So no, nonmembers cannot receive as much revelation as any member. They can receive a witness the gospel is true.

I believe that non-members can indeed possess the Holy Ghost if they are worthy, far more than just as a witness that the Gospel is true. I believe non-members can receive much revelation and visions and visitations, just as Joseph did as a non-member, for all those things require the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost comes to anyone on earth who is righteous and possesses true Christlike love. The greater the love one has, the greater the amount of the presence of the Holy Ghost. If they have the opportunity to be baptized they will do it & receive an even a greater abundance of the Spirit.

I also believe that our own personal revelation is only judged & tested by what the holy scriptures way, not by anyone's else's opinions. For everyone's opinions & teachings must be in harmony with the scriptures, no matter what calling they hold.

If this were true then why have the GIFT of the HOLY GHOST after baptism? Why not just get baptized? Also why was the first thing the people of 3 nephi ask for was the GIFT of the HOLY GHOST if what you say is in fact true? If the holy ghost is with me just because I am good then why have the ordinance at all?

You need to study this out a bit more.

The key to understand this is that we can have the holy ghost with us while we are thinking of Christ. When we call on his name, at that moment we think of him, we can have his spirit to be with us, but if we want his spirit to always be with us we need two things, one is obey his commandments and two we need the ordinance performed for us by one who has priesthood authority call the gift of the holy ghost. If the ordinance is impotent as you suggest then why did Christ give us this ORDINANCE?

[shadow]

And where would his authority (keys) come from? And has the Lord specified in our day where His servants come from, or rather where His servants get their authority (keys) from? Search it out and you'll find the answer. We've been over this quite a few times since I've been on this site. Some people think prophets will come from outside the church, but in reality they come from inside the church, those who have been called and set apart for such occurrences. President Eyring is one of those people but many dismiss him including his wonderful Priesthood session talk. Yes, that was a friendly little jab at Reese :ymhug:

The truth is I've been called to repentance by people outside the church, and I needed it! But a prophet to warn and lead us will be a prophet in the Lords church. I think sometimes people forget just whose church this is! It's His way or the highway.

Well here is a big jabby hug right back at you :ymhug: . But I have to ask, Mark hasn't convinced you that I am a man has he? Because I am not, and therefore I was not present for Elder Eyring's priesthood meeting talk. But I will listen to it now.
Now as far as "the prophet who will call us to repentance", the Lord is capable of giving someone priesthood authority outside of the established practice in the church. Whether he will or not is yet to be seen. But I don't think someone calling us to repentance has to be a "prophet" anyway. At least not our definition of what a prophet is. They could simply be on an errand for the Lord. A message of repent or be destroyed, does not require someone sustained in GC to a special calling, thereby alerting all of us that we are not being warned and should get it together and repent. That would kindof take away the whole "test" aspect of it, wouldn't it? I think we should always take the Lord's patterns into account. And he has always used obscure people who were not part of the established leadership of the time. At the very least we should be open to the possibilty of him doing that again.

) I realize you're not a man, you're much too kind!
And if you read my last paragragh from the above quote you'll see that I acknowledge that being called to repentance can come from those outside the church. But the calling to "warn and lead" will come from someone with that stewardship, someone with keys and authority. Someone like that in this world will come from the church. And that, my sis, is part of the test!
"We do not consider ourselves bound to receive any revelation from any one man or woman without his being legally constituted and ordained to that authority, and given sufficient proof of it. ...It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, OR ANYONE, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the church are vested in the keys of the kingdom."

"Jesus set in the church firstly Apostles, and secondly prophets, for the work of the ministry, perfecting the saints, etc.; the grand rule of heaven is that NOTHING should EVER be done on earth without revealing the secret to his servants the prophets, agreeable to Amos 3:7" Joseph Smith

D&C 42:11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

[marc]

Thank you, Mark. I will be making a post soon, hopefully by this weekend, regarding Nephi's longsuffering and repeated attempts at trying to get through to his older brothers, Laman and Lemuel. New Order Mormons, keep an eye out.

I am not sure that would do much good. Those here who do not believe it necessary to "follow the prophet" as traditionally viewed, realize if there is no man to follow, there is only the Lord to follow, and that necessitates much prayer.

The fruits of Nephi's prayers began with feeling the spirit, increased faith, visions, angelic ministries, and ultimately to the presence of Christ. So the questions is, if you are not receiving visions and angelic ministries, are you on the same path as Nephi?

An excellent point, ATL. And it all begins with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, purifying ourselves. That comes pretty darn close to 'following' the prophets. Imagine that!

[Mark]

Thank you, Mark. I will be making a post soon, hopefully by this weekend, regarding Nephi's longsuffering and repeated attempts at trying to get through to his older brothers, Laman and Lemuel. New Order Mormons, keep an eye out.

I am not sure that would do much good. Those here who do not believe it necessary to "follow the prophet" as traditionally viewed, realize if there is no man to follow, there is only the Lord to follow, and that necessitates much prayer.

The fruits of Nephi's prayers began with feeling the spirit, increased faith, visions, angelic ministries, and ultimately to the presence of Christ. So the questions is, if you are not receiving visions and angelic ministries, are you on the same path as Nephi?

An excellent point, ATL. And it all begins with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, purifying ourselves. That comes pretty darn close to 'following' the prophets. Imagine that!

This has always been a puzzle to me marc. Tell me one thing that one of our living Prophets have said that would not bless my life if I followed that counsel He gave. Just one. I can't think of one myself. Yet people continue to complain about following the Prophet as though that would be a bad negative thing. I just don't get the objection to following a prophet. It seems like a contradiction in belief systems. If I follow the prophets counsel my life is richly blessed because I am living a Christ centered life and keeping his commandments. If I reject the prophets counsel I am filled with adversarial thoughts and actions. Which one would be my best alternative in life? #-o

[marc]

Well, the Israelites followed Moses for 40 years during a trek that could have lasted a fraction of that time and it wasn't Moses' fault. People today are still "wandering in the wilderness."

[ATL Wake]

Well, the Israelites followed Moses for 40 years during a trek that could have lasted a fraction of that time and it wasn't Moses' fault. People today are still "wandering in the wilderness."

The better illustration with this example would be, if they had not wanted a prophet so bad, they could have walked with the Lord. They rejected the higher law. The Lord wanted to establish a people like Enochs. The Israelites settled for a man who would lead them.

Back to the first example, Nephi, he saw the prophet's example, and prayed about it. He followed Lehi. After that he progressed on his own. He progressed so far that at times HE received revelation and direction for the family instead of Lehi. Of course he was deferential to his father, even asking him where to go to find food. But Nephi did not rely on Lehi, Nephi relied on the Lord.

Nephi concludes his writings with the one true path, the Doctrine of Christ. Faith-> Repentance-> Baptism -> Holy Ghost-> Angels-> Christ-> Father. There is no man in that path.

I'm not antagonistic towards the leaders. I watched conference. But I think they are being used as a crutch too often. And when I have a question, my default is not, "What has the Church said about the matter?" or "What as a GA said about the matter?" The question is brought to God.

[Thinker]

... but when you hit bottom and I truly fear you will, I hope you will have the fog lifted and realize how it happened.

You think I will hit bottom & am in the fog, because I've chosen to follow Jesus Christ's teachings over businessmen church leaders?
Hm... Is this coming from someone claiming to be a member of the "true" Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints?

After Jesus taught the parable of the talents (about wisely using resources to love others as ourselves), he taught the parable of dividing the sheep from the goats:

The King said to the sheep,
"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungred, & ye have me meat: I was thirsty, & ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me in: Naked, & ye clothed me: I was sick, & ye visited me: I was in prison, & ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, & fed thee? or thirsty, & gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, & took thee in? or naked, & clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, & came unto thee?

And the King shall answer & say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil & his angels: For I was an hungred, & ye gave me no meat: I was thristy, & ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me not in: naked & ye clothed me not: sick, & in prison, & ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, & did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the rightous into life eternal."

In the parable of the talents, Jesus was teaching the Lord who was mad at the one who hid his talent was not mad at him for not making money, but for not using his money to bless others as himself (the 2 greatest commandments, which "hang all the law & the prophets"/profits).

"According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death."
http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/ ... -and-stats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Deut 14:28-29 specifically states that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to the poor.
LDS leaders have left this scripture out of LDS bible indexes & dictionaries... why?
Maybe because they give NO tithes to the poor.

[marc]

As for Nephi, one of my biggest Book of Mormon heroes...

1 Nephi 2:16

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

There is a pattern that all men (should) go through. All are prophets. You, me, Nephi, etc. The spirit of revelation is the testimony of Jesus Christ. Lehi didn't just trust in the arm of flesh (Jeremiah and other prophets), neither did Nephi (referring to his father's visions). Nephi is telling us here that even he needed softening of the heart. Obviously he had his doubts, but he had faith enough in his prophet, his own father, to follow him out of Jerusalem. So following a prophet has a certain limit, but we follow a prophet, nonetheless.

[Thinker]

this being the case.....um, what harm is it to show the members where their hard earned dollars are going and what good it is achieving

if its good enough to pat ourselves on the back over a shopping centre there remains no reason not to

Good point, Aussie.
God is light, truth & love... not darkness, secrecy & materialistic greed.

[reese]

This has always been a puzzle to me marc. Tell me one thing that one of our living Prophets have said that would not bless my life if I followed that counsel He gave. Just one. I can't think of one myself. Yet people continue to complain about following the Prophet as though that would be a bad negative thing. I just don't get the objection to following a prophet. It seems like a contradiction in belief systems. If I follow the prophets counsel my life is richly blessed because I am living a Christ centered life and keeping his commandments. If I reject the prophets counsel I am filled with adversarial thoughts and actions. Which one would be my best alternative in life? #-o

I agree with you 100% here Mark. My feelings are that we have to go beyond following the prophet though. Not that we should not follow him.

coachmarc wrote:
Well, the Israelites followed Moses for 40 years during a trek that could have lasted a fraction of that time and it wasn't Moses' fault. People today are still "wandering in the wilderness."

This illustrates my point exactly. They were following a true prophet, literally, and they were going no where for a long time.


The better illustration with this example would be, if they had not wanted a prophet so bad, they could have walked with the Lord. They rejected the higher law. The Lord wanted to establish a people like Enochs. The Israelites settled for a man who would lead them. And this is the reason why. They settled for less. The Lord makes this very clear in D&C. This where we seem to differ in opinion, because I think we are doing exactly the same thing as the children of Israel, we are settling for less as a church.

[Thinker]

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

I'm not suggesting that any leaders aren't righteous, I'm just saying that that's the principle we are to live by. For some seem to be advocating that we pay our tithes and offerings 'unquestioningly'.

If we believe that our Bishop is neglecting the widows and the fatherless in the ward, then it is possible that the Lord may instruct us to give our money directly to them.

We must have an open mind about these things and not believe in blind obedience, but instead live by the Spirit and what we know is right.

Exactly, Awake!
The war in heaven was based on free agency.
It is precious & we cannot afford to blindly follow quesitonable behavior, especially when Jesus specifically instructed us to love others as ourselves & as we love others, we love God, & as we don't love others, we don't love God. (Matt 22 parable of sheep & goats)

[marc]

They could have made the trip in far less time but it was not because they followed a "man." It was because of their own disobedience and stiffneckedness. They were hard hearted, despite the miracles that Moses performed for them in their escape and journey. And they refused such a simple task as turning their necks to look at a brazen serpent to be saved. Look up Deuteronomy 9:6, 7, 13, 24; Psalm 78:8; Acts 7:51; Nehemiah 9:26; Isaiah 30:9; Ezekiel 2:5 & 8; Exodus 32:9 – 33:3 – 33:5 and 34:9 for more examples. They were not ready for the promised land. They still had the idolatry of Egypt in their hearts. They were so wicked that God promised not to allow them in until the next generation. It wasn't because of Moses. It was because of their own wickedness.

[Thinker]

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

Really? Where is this taught?

Where is it not taught, Ben?
For starters:
"Thou shalt have no other God before me." Exodus 20:3

"Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail— But charity is the pure blove of Christ, and it endureth forever." - Moroni 7:47

“The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and … the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” -D&C 121

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, & with all thy soul, & with all thy mind. This is the 1st commandment. And the 2nd is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. ON THESE 2 COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS." -Matt 22:36-40

[Zkulptor]

Laronius brings up an excellent point. Thinker....any response?

Already responded on page 1.


Zkulptor,
You are assuming church leaders to be God.
They are not.
Don't you realize that?
They are human beings, imperfect human beings, like you & me.
Our church is NOT called, "The church of prophets and apostles of latter days saints."
Our church is called: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

There is a reason why we are commanded:
THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
And that all things will fail, except charity, which is the pure love of Christ.
God is love. 1John 4:8
Jesus commanded the 2 greatest commandments are to love God (as we love others, we love God) & to love others as ourselves...
"on these 2 commandments hang all the laws and the prophets." -Matt 22:40

Whatever man, you honestly want me to swallow such misconceptions?
Why not just start your own church then? why do you even attend our church?
Obviously our leadership is lost ( according to you), and those who trust the brethren ( albeit not blindly as we have the Holy Ghost) are worshiping other Gods before our God..... sorry but you are completely and utterly lost, I hope you will find your way back one day.... the time is running out though

[reese]

) I realize you're not a man, you're much too kind!
And if you read my last paragragh from the above quote you'll see that I acknowledge that being called to repentance can come from those outside the church. But the calling to "warn and lead" will come from someone with that stewardship, someone with keys and authority. Someone like that in this world will come from the church. And that, my sis, is part of the test!

I agree with you shadow. If someone comes to set this church in order it will be a member of this church. I however, don't think it will necessarily be anyone in leadership. If it is going to be any kind of test, it would need to be someone obscure. Someone who people have to actually know the words of Christ in order to recognize the message. And the message will be to repent and return to God and nothing else. I think the spirit will take it from there. And anyone, like you said, within or without the church can give a message of repent and return to the Lord. It will then be up the those receiving the message to have the spirit be their guide for the next step....

[Thinker]

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

Really? Where is this taught?

We have been taught that if leaders teach or act unrighteously and thus lose their power, authority and right to lead, then it's also 'amen' to our obligation to support them, for it is not even safe, let alone wise.

We are only obligated to follow and only should follow 'righteous' leaders and the burden and responsibility is on us to be able to discern and determine if a leader is righteous or not.

For we will come under condemnation for following unrighteous leaders or teachings.

We must be able to back up everyone we believe in and support and everything we do by what the holy scriptures say.

"If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches..."
Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, 5:490-491, April 1, 1844.

"My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we mearsure every man's doctrine."
Joseph Fielding Smith

"Whenever you find any doctrine, any idea, any expression from any source whatsoever that is in conflict with that which the Lord has revealed and which is found in the holy scriptures, you may be assured that it is false and you should put is aside and stand firmly grounded in the truth in prayer and in faith, relying upon the Spirit of the Lord."
Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, CR Apr. 1917, 59-60, 64.

"If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is specualtion, man's own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth."
Harold B. Lee

"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them, even if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extremes notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves."
Apostle Samuel Richards, Millennial Star, Nov. 13, 1852.

"You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204.

Excellent examples of where it is taught that we should only follow after righteousness.
I think it could be summarized by the 2 greatest commandments Jesus taught:
To love God & to love others as ourselves (& as we love others we love God)...
"on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt 22:40

[Zkulptor]

We must remember that our obligation to give our tithes and offerings to the leaders of the Church is 'conditional' upon their personal righteousness in the use of those funds and in their personal lives and in what they preach and do.

Really? Where is this taught?

Where is it not taught, Ben?
For starters:
"Thou shalt have no other God before me." Exodus 20:3

"Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail— But charity is the pure blove of Christ, and it endureth forever." - Moroni 7:47

“The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and … the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” -D&C 121

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, & with all thy soul, & with all thy mind. This is the 1st commandment. And the 2nd is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. ON THESE 2 COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS." -Matt 22:36-40

You are confusing apples with oranges... Paying tithe is not worshiping other Gods, or our leaders as you want us to believe.... wow seriously this is so beyond me, how someone can get to this point...and truly believe those ideas that obviously come from Satan himself.

Truth is I do not follow my leaders blindly, and have stood up against a few of them in my time for unrighteous dominion, ( kicking people off church grounds because they were not members and thus not allowed to play sports with the rest of us, just because they decided not to listen to the missionaries anymore). But what you propose is preposterous and completely lacking any sanity....

[Zkulptor]

Let's start "the Church of the two commandments of latter day saints" the church that only worries about the temporal, and not the eternal yay! :-w

[Thinker]

So, I have a question. What if the Lord decided to raise up a prophet to warn us to repent so we wouldn't be destroyed, but He did not call that person out of the hierarchy of the church. How many of us would recognize him? How many of us would even bother to listen to him, let alone take his words to God and ask God, "You know, this guy isn't part of the authorized leadership, but he says Jesus told him face to face to give us a message of warning. Is this guy your servant, or is he an imposter?" Would we be so smug that we know God's ways that we feel we can judge what He would or would not do? And God had better not step out of line or do something unexpected - like get tired of leaders who are not following Him as they ought.

Just wondering.

God speaks to each of us.
One beautiful aspect I love about Jospeph Smith's teachings is personal revelation.
Jesus also taught similarly... "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17:20-21

We are given the gift of free agency... to study things out for ourselves, use our noggens (brains) & pray to find out what is of God.
When we get lazy & just go along with the flow, we are "luke warm" like Jesus taught & we'll be "spit out."
Nobody's perfect! I make mistakes every day! But I'm trying... to do what is best, what is of God.

Scott Peck taught similar to this idea of not being luke warm... with an analogy of a guided missle.
The missle will not always be directly on course, but if it doesn't keep moving, it will never get there, so it's better to keep moving, correcting as we go, rather than stop searching because we think we've found "the complete truth & nothing but the truth."

[Thinker]

Joseph Smith taught that we 'can' and 'should' all be prophets and prophetesses. So that means there is no truth or revelation or vision or visitation that we can't receive from Heavenly Father if we are worthy, even mysteries.

Joseph also proved that it doesn't take a baptized member to become a prophet and see Christ and other heavenly messengers.

Thus non-members can have the Spirit and receive just as much revelation as any member, if they are worthy, but somewhere along the line that revelation will of course lead them to the restored Church.

But even being a prophet or prophetess doesn't mean they are to lead the whole church or make decisions for it, that is given to one specific prophet who is called by God to do so.

But truth is truth, and thus any true revelation or truth any righteous person receives is always helpful to anyone who can discern it's truth and learn and be warned. We are commanded to warn others once we have been warned by the Spirit.

The prophet Samuel the Lamanite came out of nowhere and was told to warn the people. Any righteous person can be inspired to do that.

But we must have the Holy Spirit as our guide to be able to discern truth from error from any source whatsoever.

Non members cannot "have the Spirit" as in gift of the Holy Ghost. Here is a quote from the Church's website explaining this concept:

How would you know, PatriotSaint?
Isn't "having the Spirit" as a companion more personal than clicking on a website of the church leader's perspectives?
How would they know, if they've never been non-members?

BTW, One convert recently commented to me that she really disliked the "us vs. them" attitude by referring to people as either "members" or "non members."
Excluding people is non-Christlike, & more cult-like.

Characteristics of a cult (listed by several organizations, including American Family Foundation)...
1) Requires UNquestioning commitment to leader
2) Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished
3) Leaders dictate how members should think, feel & act
4) Claims special, exalted status for itself/leaders
5) Polarized us-versus-them mentality
6) Leader is not accountable to any authorities
7) Teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary
8) Leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members
9) Preoccupied with bringing in new members.
10) Preoccupied with making money
11) Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities
12) The most loyal members feel there can be no life outside the context of the group & fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/up ... istics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Thinker]

I think I would disagree that the people here posting are new order mormons. From my readings on newordermormon.org, it seems that they do not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, and many other doctrines taught during the restoration.

Many of the nontraditional comments made here are by those who do believe in the Book of Mormon, believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, and believe all the doctrines of the Restoration.

The difference I see is, most do not believe there is a duty to follow the leadership in nonspiritual matters.

I could be wrong. Any New Order Mormons willing to self-identify?

I read & posted on New Order Mormon for a little while & found some to be truly interested in exploring deeper meanings of the gospel, but the majority seemed to have a knee-jerk rebellious reaction to anything remotely positive about the church, so I stopped reading & posting there. Maybe it's better now, I don't know - it's been a while.

New Order Mormon is supposed to support, "the middle way" of staying in the church but feeling free to not believe the entire package. There are other forums like Post Mormon, Exmormon - which I'm not so sure about I've heard that Mormonthink (or something like that ) & Stay LDS forums help & are a safe place to explore controversial church issues, & are less negative.