LDS Freedom Forum

I know many of you have lots of knowledge and history in your memory banks. I am looking for any information that you might have on when we as a Church officially started raising our arms to the Square to Sustain someone to a calling or office. When the Church was first started did we use a voice vote, or has it always been by raising to the Square.

Any background on why we use the raising of the arm to the Square, not just straight up, and the importance of using the right arm and not the left.

I have never been in a meeting where someone opposed the individual being sustained. What is, or would be the normal procedure that happens when someone votes to the contrary. I had always thought that at the end of the meeting you would be called into the presiding authorities office for an interview. Then you would be asked for your thoughts on why you raised your hand. If its worthiness, then I would assume that would be an acceptable reason for vote no. However, if it was because of personality issues, or their dog does his business in your yard, or their kids run all over your back yard, then of course that would not be acceptable reason to vote no.

And before anyone jumps to conclusion that I am going to vote no for someone, this information is for this Sunday's Priesthood lesson.

The raising of the arm to the square predates the establishment of the church by many hundreds of years. Its origins are to be found in Masonic jurisprudence. I could give a detailed account of its usage in that setting if you like.

You are correct that a vote in opposition is handled by private interview following the meeting. Such votes were at one time more common than they are today. As a youth I was in a meeting where the majority did not sustain a new bishop once. They stopped the meeting and went into the interviews. As I was a visitor and just a boy of 12 I was not informed as to what happened next. My father a member of the stake presidentcy had taken me along to the meeting so I could see it in action.

I came close to objecting once to a youth Sunday School teacher who was teaching faultshoods about the catholic church to the youth dispute my and other parents repeated objections to both the teacher and the bishop. Finally I told the bishop that I would have no choice but to not sustain the teacher in the next ward conference. By telling the bishop ahead of time what I would do I avoided sand bagging him in the middle of the meeting. The teacher was released so I never had to take such an action.

In any sustaining you have three choices. You can sustain you can object or you can abstain I use the last option when I am visiting a ward and do not know the person involved.

Using the right hand to secure oaths and covenants is ancient and is acknowledged by modern scholars. It can be found in ancient Israelite culture and the Bible.

“The predominance of right-handedness provided a ready basis for metaphors and geographic perspective in the Ancient Near East…In social concourse, oaths and agreements were affirmed with the right hand (Gen. 14:22; Ezek 17:18; Dan 12:7), expressions of fellowship were sealed with a right-handed handshake (Ezra 10:19), and giving and receiving were done with the right hand (Ps 26:10; Gal 2:9).” (Dictionary of Biblical Imagery 727-728)

Interestingly enough, we continue this ancient practice by using our right hand to sustain our leaders today. We are actually entering into a covenant when we sustain our leaders.

President Lee said:
“Everyone is perfectly free to vote as he wishes. There is no compulsion whatsoever in this voting. When you vote affirmatively you make a solemn covenant with the Lord that you will sustain, that is, give your full loyalty and support, without equivocation or reservation to the officer for whom you vote.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1970, p. 103.)

“I, like you, appreciated the participation in the solemn assembly. But I thought I might give one point of doctrine and help. When we raised our hands to the square in the solemn assembly, it was not just a vote in that we gave of ourselves a private and personal commitment, even a covenant, to sustain and to uphold the laws, ordinances, commandments, and the prophet of God, President Thomas S. Monson. I so appreciated participating with you and raising my right hand to the square.” Elder Robert D. Hales, “Gaining a Testimony of God the Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost,” April 2008 General Conference.

There is ancient artwork that shows Christ, and others with the right arm to the square. Obviously, we don't know the exact context of the art but we do know that the concept was known.
So the use of the right arm in sustaining our leaders make sense in an ancient context.

it is NOT raising the RIGHT arm to the square

it is ONLY the raised HAND

nothing more

this is not an ordinance

Yes and for that matter it need not be the right hand either.

"......if the right hand offend thee............"?

Just to put the next thread to bed also

Sacrament:

ANY hand for passing

ANY hand for taking, and

Telling boys to place their arms behind backs is of the synagogue of Satan

Poltax wrote:I had always thought that at the end of the meeting you would be called into the presiding authorities office for an interview. Then you would be asked for your thoughts on why you raised your hand.

I know a lady who raised her hand against a counselor in the bishopric when new bishopric was being sustained. They took her into the bishop's office after the meeting and asked her what her concerns were. (They were with his wife.) She finally agreed to accept him, since it wasn't him she had the issue with.

(I know this because she told me after I moved into the ward, several years later.}

I have been in a meeting where there was one or 2 opposing votes. The meeting was halted and the sustaining also halted. Some months later the person was again presented and sustained, after the objections had been met to the satisfaction of those who objected. Their reason was legitimate.

I got one for you guys, last stake conference we had to sustain in a new stake presidency with 2 general authorities there and a family and teenage girl behind me all raise their hand opposing the new stake president and the general authority conducting didn't see them because they were way way back and the girl yells out WERE OPPOSING YOU IDIOT! Yeah to the general authority! I was tripping! It sounded like the spawn of satan coming out of her mouth! Than on her way walking out shes flipping everyone off saying "what are you looking at " :ymdevil: ! #:-s

PunaGabe wrote:I got one for you guys, last stake conference we had to sustain in a new stake presidency with 2 general authorities there and a family and teenage girl behind me all raise their hand opposing the new stake president and the general authority conducting didn't see them because they were way way back and the girl yells out WERE OPPOSING YOU IDIOT! Yeah to the general authority! I was tripping! It sounded like the spawn of satan coming out of her mouth! Than on her way walking out shes flipping everyone off saying "what are you looking at " :ymdevil: ! #:-s

What was the nature of their objection?