LDS Freedom Forum

Who are the Gentiles?
Growing up as a Latter-Day Saint in a largely Mormon community, I was educated that the gentiles represented those that did not believe as I did. As Mormons, we were of the house of Israel and were responsible for seeking out others of our kind from among the Gentiles around us. As such the warnings found in the latter day scriptures applied to others and not to me.

So, who are the Gentiles and what is their station in the kingdom of God? The scriptures again help to move the fog away so we can understand the message to us. On the title page of the Book of Mormon we read of several groups of people:

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile..."

The Book of Mormon was written to three groups:

•Lamanites - a remnant of the house of Israel
•Jews
•Gentiles
By a simple process of elimination, the bulk of the LDS church falls into the category of Gentiles. In fact, as it states in the citation above, the Book of Mormon was 'to come forth... by way of the Gentile.

This is further reinforced several times in the scriptures. For example, in 1st Nephi, Chapter 15 we read:

"13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—"

The Book of Mormon, which contains the fulness of the gospel, will come by and to the Gentiles. As such we should understand how the warnings in the Book of Mormon apply to the members of the LDS church. Are we considered Gentiles or are we of the house of Israel?

Those who have read the 3rd chapter of 2nd Nephi know that it emphatically states that Joseph Smith was a descendent of Joseph of Egypt and through his son Ephraim, the tribe chosen as a royal generation. Most of the patriarchal blessings in the church show lineage from Joseph through his two sons. Many in the church claim common ancestors with Joseph Smith and are, therefore, of the tribe of Joseph and of the house of Israel.

Does this line of reasoning outweigh the clear references of the role of the Gentiles in the restoration of the gospel? Let's look at another example of the defining role of the Gentiles. This is found in the 16th chapter of 3rd Nephi:

"6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;"

There are two points to be made from this scripture reference. First, the Gentiles are blessed because of their belief in the Lord and have received a witness through the Holy Ghost. Who else could that be other than the Latter-Day Saints? Secondly, the Lord references the 'unbelieving' of the Gentiles in verse 8 above. It is obvious that there are 'believers' among the Gentiles as well as the 'unbelieving.' I would suggest that the treatment of the word 'Gentile' is consistent across the three books of Nephi in the Book of Mormon and is supported by the Doctrine and Covenants.

Can those involved in the latter day restoration of the gospel be both Gentiles and descendants of Joseph of Egypt? I believe the answer is yes. In the 48th chapter of Genesis in the Old Testament, we read of the blessing Jacob gives to the two sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh. As Joseph presents his two sons with Manasseh, the eldest, positioned to be under the right hand of Jacob, he finds his father crossing his arms in order to place his right hand on Ephraim. Here is Joseph's protest and Jacob's response:

"13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15 ¶ And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day.
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."

In the last verse cited, Jacob blessed Manasseh to "become a people" while he blessed Ephraim that he would become a 'multitude of nations.' In Manasseh's case, the Hebrew word 'am' is translated as people. This same word, according to Strong's Concordance translates to family, people, and relatives. In other words, Manasseh was blessed to become a tribe. On the other hand, the blessing of Ephraim uses the Hebrew 'goyim' translated as nations. This is the same word translated as Gentiles throughout the Old Testament. Thus, an alternative translation of the 'multitude of nations' is the 'fulness of the gentiles." I suggest you check this out for yourself. The Gentile nations were populated by the descendents of Ephraim and today constitute the bulk of the converts to the restoration. In this way, the bulk of the members of the church can claim lineage from Ephraim and still be considered Gentiles.

Consider also this scripture found in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 42:

"39 For it shall come to pass, that which I spake by the mouths of my prophets shall be fulfilled; for I will consecrate of the riches of those who embrace my gospel among the Gentiles unto the poor of my people who are of the house of Israel."

Do you consider yourself a rich Gentile who embraced the gospel or a poor member of the house of Israel? It seems reasonable that the members of the LDS church cannot properly apply the title of the house of Israel to themselves.

This approach does indeed provide an answer to the question; Are the Latter Day Saints Gentiles or the house of Israel? The correct answer is: They are both. The important point to be made through is that the Latter Day Saints are included in the Gentile 'bucket' of the Book of Mormon. As such, the members of the LDS church should take heed of all the warnings to the Gentiles found in the latter day scripture. Here is one such call found in the last chapter of 3rd Nephi:

"2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel."

The message to us here is, of course, repent and come unto me. Please note that there are two conditional phrases employed in this scripture:

•Be baptized in my name
◦that ye may receive a remission of your sins
•Be filled with the Holy Ghost
◦that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel
Both of these conditional statements support the concepts presented earlier. First, baptism by water and by fire are necessary for the remission of sins. Second, we must be sanctified by the Holy Ghost to be numbered with the church or God's chosen house of Israel.

All the warnings found in the scriptures pertaining to the Gentiles are also for our ears and hearts. The Book of Mormon was given to us containing the fulness of the gospel. We must heed these warnings if we are to be numbered with the people of God. We must also remember that we are repeatedly encouraged to be 'numbered with the house of Israel.'

shadow wrote:“If any of the Gentiles will believe, we will lay our hands upon them that they may receive the Holy Ghost, and the Lord will make them of the house of Israel. They will be broken off from the wild olive tree, and be grafted into the good and tame olive tree, and will partake of its sap and fatness. … It is so with the House of Israel and the Gentile nations; if the Gentiles are grafted into the good olive tree they will partake of its root and fatness.” Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, 2:269.)

“Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel. In other words, they become members of the chosen lineage, or Abraham’s children through Isaac and Jacob unto whom the promises were made. The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph. Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs.” Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 3:246.)

shadow wrote:Personally, I would include those members of the church who are not yet converted, but I think that's clarified in other statements from apostles and prophets, not to mention the Book of Mormon. In fact, does anyone care to post exactly how the Book of Mormon explains or defines "gentiles"?

The Proclamation of the Twelve
The Lord will make her that halted a remnant; and gather her that was driven out and afflicted; and make her who was cast afar off, a strong nation; and will reign over them in Mount Zion from that time forth and for ever.

Or, in other words, He will assemble the Natives the remnants of Joseph in America; and make of them a great, and strong, and powerful nation: and he will civilize and enlighten them and will establish a holy city, and temple, and seat of government among them, which shall be called Zion.

And there shall be his tabernacle, his sanctuary, his throne, and seat of government for the whole continent of North and South America for ever.

In short, it will be to the western hemisphere what Jerusalem will be to the eastern.

And there the Messiah will visit them in person; and the old Saints, who will then have been raised from the dead, will be with him. And he will establish his kingdom and laws over all the land.

To this city, and to its several branches or stakes, shall the Gentiles seek, as to a standard of light and knowledge. Yea, the nations, and their kings and nobles, shall say, Come and let us go up to the Mount Zion, and to the temple of the Lord; where his holy priesthood stand to minister continually before the Lord; and where we may be instructed more fully, and receive the ordinances of remission, and of sanctification, and redemption; and thus be adopted into the family of Israel, and identified in the same covenants of promise.

The despised and degraded son of the forest, who has wandered in dejection and sorrow, and suffered reproach, shall then drop his disguise, and stand forth in manly dignity, and exclaim to the Gentiles who have envied and sold him: "I am Joseph: does my father yet live?" Or, in other words: I am a descendant of that Joseph who was sold into Egypt. You have hated me, and sold me, and thought I was dead. But lo! I live, and am heir to the inheritance, titles, honors, priesthood, sceptre, crown, throne, and eternal life and dignity of my fathers who live for evermore.

He shall then be ordained, washed, anointed with holy oil and arrayed in fine linen, even in the glorious and beautiful garments and royal robes of the high priesthood, which is after the order of the Son of God; and shall enter into the congregation of the Lord, even into the Holy of Holies, there to be crowned with authority and power which shall never end.

The Spirit of the Lord shall then descend upon him, like the dew upon the mountains of Hermon, and like refreshing showers of rain upon the flowers of Paradise.

His heart shall expand with knowledge, wide as eternity; and his mind shall comprehend the vast creations of his God, and His eternal purpose of redemption, glory, and exaltation, which was devised in heaven before the worlds were organized; but made manifest in these last days, for the fulness of the Gentiles, and for the exaltation of Israel.

He shall also behold his Redeemer and be filled with his presence, while the cloud of his glory shall be seen in his temple.

The city of Zion, with its sanctuary and priesthood, and the glorious fulness of the gospel, will constitute a standard which will put an end to jarring creeds and political wranglings, by uniting the republics, states, provinces, territories, nations, tribes, kindred, tongues, people, and sects of North and South America in one great and common bond of brotherhood.

While truth and knowledge shall make them free, and love cement their union. The Lord also shall be their king and their lawgiver; while wars shall cease and peace prevail for a thousand years.

Thus shall American rulers, statesmen, citizens, and savages know, "this once," that there is a God in Israel, who can utter his voice, and it shall be fulfilled.

Americans! This mighty and strange work has been commenced in your midst, and must roll on in fulfilment.

You are now invited, and earnestly intreated, to investigate it thoroughly, and to aid and participate in its accomplishment.

Moses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.

Ether 3:13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

shadow wrote: does anyone care to post exactly how the Book of Mormon explains or defines "gentiles"?

We are the Gentiles

I had an interesting question asked about the "remnant" I thought worth addressing here.

There should be no confusion about the identity of the "remnant" spoken of in the Book of Mormon. It refers to the descendants of Lehi (at times further divided into those descended from Nephi, Jacob and Joseph-- all Lehi's sons). The European stock who migrated to North America and dispossessed the indigenous people are invariably referred to as "gentiles" in the Book of Mormon. Throughout it is the case that the European descendants are "gentiles" and never anything else.

You can start in 1st Nephi and go through the end. The "gentiles" are us-- the Latter-day Saints (to the extent we are primarily European-descended and not Native American).

Joseph Smith received the dedicatory prayer for the Kirtland Temple by revelation. In the prayer he refers to the church as being "identified with the gentiles." (D&C 109: 60)

It does not matter if we descend from Israel. Nor if we have actual genetic markers which would make us Ephraimites, or Levites, or of the tribe of Judah, or any of the other tribes of Israel. Unless we are Native American, we are not the "remnant" discussed in the Book of Mormon.

There are many references to early church leaders being descended from Israelite bloodlines. Even if that is the case, however, the Book of Mormon usage refers to us as "gentiles" unless descended from Lehi.

The Book of Mormon
An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.

shadow wrote:I'll help-

“The Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischeifs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. . .” (3 Ne 7:34).
Maybe that describes some LDS's but certainly not all and it certainly doesn't describe what the church teaches.
The gentiles also reject the Book of Mormon because they already "have got a bible, and there can not be any more bible".

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

1 Hearken, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying:
2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and brepent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—

shadow wrote:

shadow wrote: does anyone care to post exactly how the Book of Mormon explains or defines "gentiles"?

I'll help-

“The Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischeifs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. . .” (3 Ne 7:34).
Maybe that describes some LDS's but certainly not all and it certainly doesn't describe what the church teaches.
The gentiles also reject the Book of Mormon because they already "have got a bible, and there can not be any more bible".

BrentL wrote: I am really amazed at how confused people are about this per this thread, minus the usual suspects.

shadow wrote:

BrentL wrote: I am really amazed at how confused people are about this per this thread, minus the usual suspects.

That's for darn sure

Gideon wrote: here is the scenario that I see in 3 Nephi, in reference to the Gentiles of the Last Days:

The gospel (Book of Mormon) is taken by the believing gentiles to the descendants of Lehi, and they also spread it throughout the nations of the gentiles. Many of the gentiles are unbelieving and reject the Book of Mormon, which contains the fulness of the gospel. One gentile nation thinks of itself above all others (USA).

After the rejection of the fulness of the gospel (Book of Mormon) by the gentiles, the Lord instructs the believing gentiles to stop preaching to the nations of the unbelieving gentiles and to then take the gospel to the house of Israel.