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Thanks for the clarification.braingrunt wrote:If that's the impression you got then communication broke down. ...Gad wrote:Correct me if I get this wrong, but this is how I am understanding the conversation.
In this verse for example (there are many like it), who are these "Gentiles"? Who is this verse talking about?
2 Nephi 28:32:
Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.
If anyone can argue successfully otherwise (ie LDS are NOT gentiles), it would be interesting to me and I would love to hear it.
Hearty amen. My understanding has been articulated as well as I am able with evidences which are sufficient in my mind... but others understand differently. I'll just add the following: to me the BOM is a conversion tool and as such has much to say directly to nonmembers to whom the book shall come. I don't buy the argument that the message is primarily for members because they are primarily the ones seeing it.buffalo_girl wrote:I don't think it's a subject that can be 'argued successfully'.
When you do, you should also direct them to Mormon chapter 9. That is where Moroni addresses the nonbeliever.braingrunt wrote: I'll go tell my nonmember friends that the Gentile warnings don't apply to them after all since it's mainly LDS it's talking about.
But it does hit us.braingrunt wrote: (we're not the only group identified as American, and talk about americans doesn't necessarily hit us directly)
Of course it applies to them AND us.braingrunt wrote: I'll go tell my nonmember friends that the Gentile warnings don't apply to them after all since it's mainly LDS it's talking about.
Not exactly,braingrunt wrote:Well then at the very least I can tell them that they won't improve their situation, (relative to being identified as a gentile and the associated cutting remarks) by repenting and being baptized. Everything still hits them just as squarely, right?
3 Nephi 16:1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
I think the Book of Mormon is for everyone, especially members.braingrunt wrote:Hearty amen. My understanding has been articulated as well as I am able with evidences which are sufficient in my mind... but others understand differently. I'll just add the following: to me the BOM is a conversion tool and as such has much to say directly to nonmembers to whom the book shall come. I don't buy the argument that the message is primarily for members because they are primarily the ones seeing it.buffalo_girl wrote:I don't think it's a subject that can be 'argued successfully'.
We are to get the message then warn the world.
Trouble? Maybe. We'd only end up re-proving what the rest of the christian world has already proved 100x over: gospel students can disagree on anything and think they are right--trust me, it's happened here on this forum lots of times. Humility and prophetic guidance are still needed.hyloglyph wrote:You guys are really sidestepping the explanation part aren't you? Yes, any true principle can be 'argued successfully'.
God gave us nimble minds and we are to use reason and logic and persuasion to find and teach truth. If that can't be agreed upon, then we are in trouble lol.
Something else occurred to me while thinking about this topic and reading Mormon8 to study your response. The phrase occurs in there "why have ye polluted the holy church of god?" and perhaps you naturally say, well, we are (or were) the holy church of god--so he must be talking to LDS.ATL Wake wrote: Moroni chapter 7 he is addressing the latter-day lamanites (remnant), chapter 8 he addresses the Gentiles, and chapter 9 he addresses the nonbeliever.
So chapters 7 and 8 may not apply to your nonmember friend, but do have him read chapter 9.
braingrunt wrote: A rebuttal is this: how would the first readers of the book of mormon have interpreted mormon 8? The BOM went on sale on march 26 1830, 11 days prior to the organization of the church. Would they say: here is a statement which relates to the church we are about to organize? Or rather, would they say that those words reveal apostate christianity, and show the need for the church that would soon be organized, with which the Lord could be well pleased? The latter, I think.
If so, they must have been in error in your view. The verses wouldn't have applied to those reading the book or anyone alive on the earth, for at least a few years I suppose, since if I understand you correctly you liked the church for a few years of it's organization.
I say no. The scripture did apply even before the church was organized or could be polluted. It was commentary on apostate christianity which had indeed originated as the holy church of God.
Are you suggesting that Moroni is addressing the apostate Christians who will never hear/read Moroni's words?35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
Wow, that condemnation sure came fast. Sept. 1832.D&C 84:54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
For those who think Mormon 8 does not apply to us, here is some comments, by L. Tom Perry, from Oct. 92 conference. He sure thought the comments were about us.braingrunt wrote: Something else occurred to me while thinking about this topic and reading Mormon8 to study your response. The phrase occurs in there "why have ye polluted the holy church of god?" and perhaps you naturally say, well, we are (or were) the holy church of god--so he must be talking to LDS.
A rebuttal is this: how would the first readers of the book of mormon have interpreted mormon 8? The BOM went on sale on march 26 1830, 11 days prior to the organization of the church. Would they say: here is a statement which relates to the church we are about to organize? Or rather, would they say that those words reveal apostate christianity, and show the need for the church that would soon be organized, with which the Lord could be well pleased? The latter, I think.
If so, they must have been in error in your view. The verses wouldn't have applied to those reading the book or anyone alive on the earth, for at least a few years I suppose, since if I understand you correctly you liked the church for a few years of it's organization. I say no. The scripture did apply even before the church was organized or could be polluted. It was commentary on apostate christianity which had indeed originated as the holy church of God.
Likewise, Elder L. Tom Perry has made some rather direct comments about the state of the church today. In a recent conference address he taught that some of the most condemning prophecies found in the Book of Mormon apply not to those outside the LDS church, but those within the LDS church. In the October Conference of 1992, Elder Perry stated,
He [Moroni] realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.
He writes first to the members of the church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)
I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world? The evidence is so strong regarding the blessings which accrue to those who trust in and follow the ways the Lord has prescribed for us. (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992, underline added)
When these words were spoken by Elder Perry, I doubt that most Latter-day Saints understood the significance of those verses to the LDS church. According to Elder Perry, these verses apply directly to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Look at the following list of evils that Elder Perry is associating with those in the LDS church today, as prophesied by Moroni long ago. According to Elder Perry, the membership of the LDS church is guilty of,
• Walking in the pride of their hearts
• Lifting themselves up in the pride of their hearts
• Wearing very fine apparel
• Envying
• Strifes
• Malice
• Persecutions
• All manner of iniquities
• Being pollutions
• Being hypocrites
• Selling themselves for that which will canker
• Polluting the holy church of god
• Polluting all of their churches – “yea, even every one”
• Being ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ
• Loving money, and their substance, and their fine apparel, and the adorning of their churches, more than they love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted
• Not thinking that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world
This list clearly describes an apostate people. And yet it would be difficult to interpret Elder Perry’s comments in any other way than to say that he’s using Moroni’s prophecy to describe the LDS church today.
Years before Elder Perry made these comments Elder H. Verlan Anderson also taught that these verses in the Book of Mormon referred to the LDS church. He said,
Moroni was similarly explicit in predicting false teachings among the saints. Reflect upon the unmistakable implications of this point-blank indictment of members of the “holy church of God:”
“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?” (Mormon 8:38)
Since there is only one “holy church of God” on earth, and since it is being polluted, the blame therefore appears to rest upon the teachers and hypocrites within that church. (The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, pp. 170-171, underline added)
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