LDS Freedom Forum

Gideon wrote:The term Gentiles includes all who are not Jews, and that means everyone else on earth who is not a Jew:
LDS
Catholics
Protestants
Hindus
Muslims
Taoists
Atheists
etc.

I don't think this is quite correct. Aside from the Gentiles there are also the heathen nations.

D&C 45: 54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

A clear distinction is made between the gentile and the heathen.
3 nephi 21:

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard

Within the context of the Book of Mormon, the Gentiles would be a white skinned people, whose nations basically have accepted Christ. Those nations that are not of the Jews and have not accepted Christ would be the heathen nations.

1 Nephi 13:

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

I think what you refer to as non-believing gentiles would actually be heathens and, I would say gentiles are the white race. The gentiles are also described as the people who murder and drive the Lamanites off their land and as the people who bring forth the Book of Mormon.

When Jesus Christ, foretells the fate of the Gentiles, he states that those who don't repent will be destroyed. I am sure that applies to all gentiles wheter LDS or not. I don't think the destruction spoken of in third Nephi applies to the heathen nations as they are given the gospel after the Jews and would have to remain undestroyed to have this opportunity.

Thomas wrote:

Gideon wrote:The term Gentiles includes all who are not Jews, and that means everyone else on earth who is not a Jew:
LDS
Catholics
Protestants
Hindus
Muslims
Taoists
Atheists
etc.

I don't think this is quite correct. Aside from the Gentiles there are also the heathen nations.

D&C 45: 54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.

A clear distinction is made between the gentile and the heathen.
3 nephi 21:

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard

Within the context of the Book of Mormon, the Gentiles would be a white skinned people, whose nations basically have accepted Christ. Those nations that are not of the Jews and have not accepted Christ would be the heathen nations.

1 Nephi 13:

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

I think what you refer to as non-believing gentiles would actually be heathens and, I would say gentiles are the white race. The gentiles are also described as the people who murder and drive the Lamanites off their land and as the people who bring forth the Book of Mormon.

When Jesus Christ, foretells the fate of the Gentiles, he states that those who don't repent will be destroyed. I am sure that applies to all gentiles wheter LDS or not. I don't think the destruction spoken of in third Nephi applies to the heathen nations as they are given the gospel after the Jews and would have to remain undestroyed to have this opportunity.

Yes, that is my understanding, as well, Thomas. The Gentiles are US and the heathen are the nations that simply do not know of Jesus Christ at this point. Joseph described the heathen nations as people like the Chinese. I think they will be the ones who are allowed to scourge us - precisely because they do not have the condemnation that the rest of the world has.

I think the nations of Islam largely do not qualify as not having had the gospel (by Joseph's definition), thus they will be lightly scourged in my estimation. Nothing nearly as bad as we will get/are currently getting for our indolence and pride as a group.

reese wrote: Well reguardless of who the gentiles are exactly(I suspect we are all right to a degree), we should all be vigilant in our own lives to make sure that we don't fall into the catagory of the unbelieving gentiles who reject the fulness....because their fate sounds awful!

Amen!

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McConkie wrote:Israelites are called Gentiles in those scriptures which speak of the gospel going first to the Gentiles and then to the Jews in the last days. Thus the Book of Mormon came forth by way of the Gentile; Joseph Smith was the Gentile who brought it forth; and the United States is a Gentile nation. This is an instance of all men being divided into two categories--Jews and Gentiles, with the Jews being those who are descendants of the Kingdom of Judah. This categorizes the Lost Tribes of Israel as Gentiles, though, in fact, they are of the literal blood of Israel. Joseph Smith was of Ephraim, and the so-called Gentiles who are receiving the gospel in this day, before it goes to the Jews in full measure, are of the house of Israel.

(Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 518)

A Gentile is anyone who doesn't define their cultural heritage in terms of the House of Israel.

Jews, for example, claim a heritage of the House of Israel. If someone ask you about your heritage, do you say "I'm an Ephraimite? (or whatever)" No, you'll probably say something along the lines of "English, French, German, Italian, Dutch, Scandinavian, etc., etc..." These are all Gentile designations. If you use them, you're a Gentile.

And you keep that designation until you can prove your lineage to the House of Israel. Most of us can't, and even if we're certain we have the blood of Israel in us, most of us have mixed heritage. Our forefathers intermarried with Gentile peoples, and the lost heritage has us identified as Gentiles. That's who we are. The 10 tribes are lost because their identity is lost. Our patriarchal blessings designate us to one tribe or another, but our heritage is still Gentile. We're Gentiles until we prove otherwise.

gruden2.0 wrote:http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book% ... es_brm.htm

McConkie wrote:Israelites are called Gentiles in those scriptures which speak of the gospel going first to the Gentiles and then to the Jews in the last days. Thus the Book of Mormon came forth by way of the Gentile; Joseph Smith was the Gentile who brought it forth; and the United States is a Gentile nation. This is an instance of all men being divided into two categories--Jews and Gentiles, with the Jews being those who are descendants of the Kingdom of Judah. This categorizes the Lost Tribes of Israel as Gentiles, though, in fact, they are of the literal blood of Israel. Joseph Smith was of Ephraim, and the so-called Gentiles who are receiving the gospel in this day, before it goes to the Jews in full measure, are of the house of Israel.

(Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 518)

A Gentile is anyone who doesn't define their cultural heritage in terms of the House of Israel.

Jews, for example, claim a heritage of the House of Israel. If someone ask you about your heritage, do you say "I'm an Ephraimite? (or whatever)" No, you'll probably say something along the lines of "English, French, German, Italian, Dutch, Scandinavian, etc., etc..." These are all Gentile designations. If you use them, you're a Gentile.

And you keep that designation until you can prove your lineage to the House of Israel. Most of us can't, and even if we're certain we have the blood of Israel in us, most of us have mixed heritage. Our forefathers intermarried with Gentile peoples, and the lost heritage has us identified as Gentiles. That's who we are. The 10 tribes are lost because their identity is lost. Our patriarchal blessings designate us to one tribe or another, but our heritage is still Gentile. We're Gentiles until we prove otherwise.

+1

The word Gentile is a homonym, it changes meaning depending on the context. In the original post the word Gentile has nothing to do with the LDS church AT ALL. In 3rd Nephi, Christ was referring to the ancient Jews assumption that when he said he had other sheep he was referring to those not of the house of Israel. He clarifies that the Jews were wrong in their assumption. He fulfilled his own prophesy in 3rd Nephi. The Nephites and Lamanites are of the House of Israel. Jacobs name was changed to Israel therefore all of Jacobs sons are of the House of Israel (not exclusively Jews)

Aren't we supposed to be a gentile people?

Wow. I am just reading this old thread. To me, it seems obvious that the LDS church, Americans, and majority of European countries are "Gentiles"
People seem to confuse that in Christ's MORTAL ministry he was only sent to the House of Israel. People have cited these scriptures, implying that this will be the case forever?
That seems nutty in light of all the scriptural citations provided. Joseph even referred to us as Gentiles in his dedicatory prayer that was given to him by revelation. The Book of Mormon came by way of the Gentile. Read 2 Nephi's references to the Gentiles and it is like listening to the news.
How is there any confusion on this? I just read this whole thread. Am I missing something? Please help.

hyloglyph wrote:Wow. I am just reading this old thread. To me, it seems obvious that the LDS church, Americans, and majority of European countries are "Gentiles"
People seem to confuse that in Christ's MORTAL ministry he was only sent to the House of Israel. People have cited these scriptures, implying that this will be the case forever?
That seems nutty in light of all the scriptural citations provided. Joseph even referred to us as Gentiles in his dedicatory prayer that was given to him by revelation. The Book of Mormon came by way of the Gentile. Read 2 Nephi's references to the Gentiles and it is like listening to the news.
How is there any confusion on this? I just read this whole thread. Am I missing something? Please help.

As I read through 3 Nephi, and other places in the Book of Mormon it becomes quite obvious that there are specific groups of Gentiles singled out.

For example, in 1 Nephi 13 we read about Gentiles that have nothing to do with any of us today. In another place, Moroni says that the Gentiles will mock his writings. In 3 Nephi, Christ refers to believing Gentiles and unbelieving Gentiles.

Some have lumped all Gentiles together, and applied the same prophecies to them, which seems to be a mistake to me.

I think a reading of Jacob chapter five sheds some light on this subject. The allegory of Zenos describes the wild branch and the natural branch of the olive tree. The natural branch is the house of Israel. The wild branch is the Gentiles. The wild branch is never considered the natural branch, even after being adopted in. There is always the distintion between the two.

A Gentile is always a Gentile wheter adopted in or not. The wild branch is always the wild branch wheter grafted into the natural tree or not. A gentile can still receive the same benefits as a member of the natural branch but will still be of the wild branch.

It should be quite obivious that the prophecies, in the Book of Mormon, are directed at us, wheter adopted in or not. The choice is repent or be destroyed. The choice is the same for the natural branch as well. Repent or be destroyed. Anyone who feels safe because of membership in the church is fooling themselves. The warnigs are aimed squarely at the members of the church. They are the only ones who are going to read the book in the first place

There will be repentant Gentiles who become part of the natuaral tree but according to Zenos, it doesn't look like many will repent. The main purpose of the Gentiles seems to be to save the roots of the tree so the natural branches can be grafted back in.

I guess I'm willing to be identified as a Gentile -

that being I am NOT of the pure root & branch of ISRAEL who were placed here and there in the Lord's vineyard in order to 'preserve the ancient root and tame branches' as were the Sons & Daughters of Lehi, the Mulekites, and the Jaredites. I'm sure there are other groups of the Covenant People who were likewise preserved by the hand of the Lord in their purity.

Those of us, Gentiles, given the sacred record of the people who populated this Land, were given that record as 'a TEST'. IF we pass that test we will 'be numbered in among the remnant' who were preserved by the Lord in answer to the prayers of ancient Book of Mormon prophets.

THOSE brought to this Sacred Land by any other than by direct Covenant with the Lord need to heed Paul's warning in Romans 11:

Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

PLEASE read the remainder of Romans 11 for Paul's insight into "wisdom and knowledge of God" in regard to this discussion!

3Nephi 21
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.

27 Yea, the work shall commence among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to prepare the way whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name.

28 Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance.

29 And they shall go out from all nations; and they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward.

In the end all the trees, root and branch, wild and natural are burned. What the Lord cares about is the fruit.

I think that we are the fruit and our culture/ancestry is the branch. If we are from the wild branch and become good fruit then we'll be gathered up. It doesn't really matter where we come from or what blood flows in our vains. Even Jacob was not Israel until he made the covenant with the Lord.

All that matters whatever circumstance we find ourselves in is to be the good fruit.

So is there a consensus on whether the LDS Church falls under Gentile or not?

I think it is obvious that it does. And this is important because there are many revelations talking about the gentile's role in the last days, especially in regard to their dealings with the remnant, establishing Zion, etc. I don't think anyone has been saying Gentile means LDS and only LDS.

There was a comment made saying that 1 Nephi 13 has nothing to do with us. Again, am I missing something? 1 Nephi 13 is speaking directly about us. How our forefathers were brought out of captivity, and then about us directly.

Am I way off on this? It seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm crazy.

hyloglyph wrote:So is there a consensus on whether the LDS Church falls under Gentile or not?

I think it is obvious that it does. And this is important because there are many revelations talking about the gentile's role in the last days, especially in regard to their dealings with the remnant, establishing Zion, etc. I don't think anyone has been saying Gentile means LDS and only LDS.

There was a comment made saying that 1 Nephi 13 has nothing to do with us. Again, am I missing something? 1 Nephi 13 is speaking directly about us. How our forefathers were brought out of captivity, and then about us directly.

Am I way off on this? It seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm crazy.

This will be my one and only post on this thread, since the answer is simple, obvious, and yet debated ad nauseum. Latter-day Saints are not referred to as "Gentiles" in the Book of Mormon, unless an entire nation is referred to, but never singled out.

The definition of gentile (According to Church doctrine--I'm not interested in the contrarian hypotheticals) is:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/gentiles?lang=eng

"As used in the scriptures, Gentiles has several meanings. Sometimes it designates people of non-Israelite lineage, sometimes people of non-Jewish lineage, and sometimes nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood among the people. This latter usage is especially characteristic of the word as used in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants."

Take care.

There are those who argue it is and those who argue gentiles never refer to us and those who argue it only sometimes does. The holy ghost's effect is pure intelligence. That eureka feeling of obviousness is his effect on you. You know it is true without having to refer to dictionaries, but directly from the mind if God.

hyloglyph wrote:So is there a consensus on whether the LDS Church falls under Gentile or not?

I think it is obvious that it does. And this is important because there are many revelations talking about the gentile's role in the last days, especially in regard to their dealings with the remnant, establishing Zion, etc. I don't think anyone has been saying Gentile means LDS and only LDS.

There was a comment made saying that 1 Nephi 13 has nothing to do with us. Again, am I missing something? 1 Nephi 13 is speaking directly about us. How our forefathers were brought out of captivity, and then about us directly.

Am I way off on this? It seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm crazy.

It seems quite obvious to me as well. The Gentiles bring the Book of Mormon to the world. That has to be us. According to some posters here, the Book of Mormon will be brought to the world by people from a different religion. Those different people will also assist in builing New-Jerusalem and in gathering Israel.

I think many just can't accept that the Book of Mormon says negative things about us so they deny we are Gentiles. Of course, the term is a racial classification. I can adopt a Chinese child and give him all rights and privilages that any of my natural children have. That child can legally be given my name and numbered among my natural children but that child would still have a Chinese racial background. If I were writing a book about my children, I could refer to that child as the Chinese one.

Most of us in the church are identified with the gentiles. What some people do, if I perceive correctly, is to make references to the gentiles pertain particularly to the church; no doubt some do, but by&large I believe the most correct target for most statements is the cultural USA.
Consider this one:

3Ne30


1 Hearken, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying:

2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.


Those gentiles there are not baptized; and perhaps most of the gentile statements in the preceeding chapters (which are powerful) can be colored in that light. This does not mean we treat them lightly.

Alma invited members of the church to be baptized again. (Alma 5 if I recall correctly.) In our times, re-baptism was a normal thing for decades in the church. I am not sure given this context of re-baptism in the Book of Mormon as well as in the early church that a call to baptism would indicate it was only to non-members.

I have to wonder if those members of the Church who taking 'issue' over being identified as a Gentile v. being Covenant/Chosen aren't allowing themselves to give into a specific 'conceit'.

Personally, I believe we are foreordained by assignment to specific 'bloodlines'. No doubt, we had a part in the determining process - either through request and/or in consequence of individual intelligence, reliability, personality traits, etc.. We each perform a specific role in the unfolding of human experience and history.

We all know the Tribes of Israel were scattered, that even the Tribe of Judah's bloodline was 'tainted' through intermarriage, but retained - despite every assault - a religious/cultural identity over the centuries. DID the Jews retain the integrity of their original Covenant with God? NO!

So... HOW does it all play out?

READ: Romans 11

Perhaps the very best way to approach the Creator in regard to personal standing before Him is with the utmost humility.

Follows a continuation of Romans 11 begun in my previous post. There is more of Chapter 11 to be searched out by anyone interested.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Gad wrote:Alma invited members of the church to be baptized again. (Alma 5 if I recall correctly.) In our times, re-baptism was a normal thing for decades in the church. I am not sure given this context of re-baptism in the Book of Mormon as well as in the early church that a call to baptism would indicate it was only to non-members.

Who is authorized to administer this baptism which you say might apply to baptized church members? If it does apply to me I'd sure like to get it taken care of so I can be numbered with israel.

Yes I'm being a little sarcastic, though I will consider your answer seriously.

braingrunt wrote:

Gad wrote:Alma invited members of the church to be baptized again. (Alma 5 if I recall correctly.) In our times, re-baptism was a normal thing for decades in the church. I am not sure given this context of re-baptism in the Book of Mormon as well as in the early church that a call to baptism would indicate it was only to non-members.

Who is authorized to administer this baptism which you say might apply to baptized church members? If it does apply to me I'd sure like to get it taken care of so I can be numbered with israel.

Yes I'm being a little sarcastic, though I will consider your answer seriously.

Correct me if I get this wrong, but this is how I am understanding the conversation.

Previous Posters - Gentiles in the Book of Mormon means (or at least includes) the LDS.

Braingrunt - 3 Ne 20:1-2 refers to Gentiles needing to repent and be baptized. Since the LDS are baptized this indicates that Gentiles does not mean LDS.

Gad - Other parts of the Book of Mormon show baptized members of the church being commanded by church leaders to be re-baptized. Early church history shows baptized members of the LDS church being re-baptized by LDS leaders. Therefore, a call to be baptized does not exclude LDS members.

Braingrunt - Who has a authority be baptize (if admittedly a little sarcastic)?

I am not quite understanding your latest post. I think that perhaps you are assuming that I am advocating baptism in another church? or that perhaps you think that baptism is something that can only be done once and therefore if one is re-baptized it must be in another church? Something else? I dunno.

My post was pointing out that given the Book of Mormon and early LDS church practice of re-baptism I do not think that using 3 Ne 20:1-2 to show Gentiles cannot mean LDS or that those verses show that the LDS are excluded from the term Gentiles is correct.

Other parts of the Book of Mormon show baptized members of the church being commanded by church leaders to be re-baptized. Early church history shows baptized members of the LDS church being re-baptized by LDS leaders. Therefore, a call to be baptized does not exclude LDS members.

Setting aside the issue of who are the Gentiles,


Where in the Book of Mormon does it command to be rebaptized for your sins vs. baptism for sins and joining the Nephite Church? Clearly stated, NOT inferred.

As for early LDS Church members - the only legitimate time rebaptism happened was if people were baptized in 1829, then had to be rebaptized into the LDS Church after April 6, 1830. Early members who sinned then were rebaptized just because they sinned no matter great of small (except those once excommunicated) were in error, as were their leaders who performed those rebaptisms. Thus, the need to set things in order. No different than in the first years of baptism for the dead, men being baptized for women and vice-versa, or early members being sealed to Joseph or Hyrum Smith, and then Brigham Young or later prophet said "no, get sealed to your own parents"

Things get revealed bit by bit, and often the Lord has to send further instruction to clarify things...

Thank you - now consider what I last wrote...

Gad wrote:Correct me if I get this wrong, but this is how I am understanding the conversation.

If that's the impression you got then communication broke down. Note that I said: "most lds are identified with the gentiles" and "No doubt some references to the gentiles apply especially to the LDS church". But to me others clearly do not. My stance is this: with respect to 3ne you could easily replace the word "gentile" with "american" or "americans". The 3ne gentiles focused on are the ones who will interact with Lehi's posterity.

You can say: repent americans and be baptized, and that easily (and to me, clearly) goes beyond lds church. You can say: the gospel is restored by means of the american, and then it clearly narrows down to Joseph and lds. But the next time you use the word american it just as easily opens right back up to full scope of america.

Going back to 1ne, the term gentile goes all the way back to Jesus' time and up to the conditions Joseph found himself in 1820, in which churches drew near to God with their mouths but denied the power of God.

Furthermore, by repenting and being baptized, (though you still have a lingering relationship to the gentiles) you enter a different prophetic/scriptural category where what the Lord says about the gentiles does not always apply to you very well; though, knowing you were a gentile, and where they stand, remains a potent warning to you to stay with God or you'll end (at best) right where you started.
------

As to the authority question. When alma commands baptism, it is clear under what authority they could be rebaptized: the high priests. (Recall though that at some point, a new church was organized under alma the elder, though righteous people had been operating under the holy order previously. But it was appropriate for them to receive a baptism into the church even if they had received the baptism of repentance previously. I don't know if this comes into play here but I'll throw it out there) Similarly in the early church. I have no aversion to rebaptism if I can understand under what conditions and authority it should be administered. In most cases I am of the opinion that rebaptism is not warranted and therefore calls to be baptized do not apply to those who already have been. Especially at present, I can find no way to apply that scripture to church members; but rather americans at large.