LDS Freedom Forum

Trying to determine whether members of the LDS Church are Gentile or of the House of Israel can be difficult. In essence, for a time, we will be both.

Joseph married an Egyptian. He was the only son of Jacob to do so. In essence, the House of Ephraim are the Gentiles, figurative speaking, but they are also of the House of Israel--but they are not those that are mentioned as the Lost Tribes, of when we speak of the gospel being taught to the House of Israel as a whole, this does not include Ephraim, because those of Ephraim are Gentiles. In terms of culture and heritage, this is most definitely the case.

Now, when the Time of the Gentiles are past, and the House of Israel is being established at Zion, with the tribes being called home to America first, than Jerusalem, the Gentile culture will have been destroyed by a Heathen enemy (the Beast). At this time, those who are saved of Ephraim, or the Gentiles, will take upon them the full mantle of Ephraim and will govern as a tribe and not in the manner of the Gentiles. We may even have beards again, who knows.

D&C 109:60

Gentile is a cultural designation. We speak a Gentile language. We are subject to laws of a Gentile nation. We watch Gentile sports events on the Sabbath. We are a warlike people. We even call ourselves the Gentile designation, Mormons, except when the naughty polygamists are on the rampage, then of course the Gentiles don't like naughty, so then we are...something else. We support a very Gentile political movement as if it were equal with the Savior's church. Two scriptures, if you please:

"They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a FEW, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." - 2Nephi 28:15

"And there were MANY whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad." - Ether 12:19

In previous dispensations, MANY had veil piercing faith. In the Latter Days only a FEW humble followers of Christ were foretold. Pride will do you in, humility puts you in the savior's flock. Get off your magic bloodline high horse, be humble, and then be numbered with the Lord's chosen people - Isreal. Just saying...

I haven't read every post, but it appears that some are unable to accept that the term 'Gentile' used by the Messiah in 3 Nephi could possibly be addressed to members of the Church.

In President Packer's address, Finding Ourselves in Lehi's Dream, he states:

We live in a time of war, that spiritual war that will never end. Moroni warned us that the secret combinations begun by Gadianton “are had among all people. …

“Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [and the term Gentile in that place in the Book of Mormon refers to us in our generation], it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you. …

“Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you” (Ether 8:20, 23–24).

You who are young will see many things that will try your courage and test your faith. All of the mocking does not come from outside of the Church. Let me say that again: all of the mocking does not come from outside of the Church. Be careful that you do not fall into the category of mocking.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/08/find ... y=gentiles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

pjbrownie wrote:Joseph married an Egyptian.

By race/ descent, not necessarily so. She could even have been a relative (likely), the missing granddaughter of Jacob/Israel (Pratt has a great article on it): http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... e_ans.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

JulesGP wrote:

BrentL wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:In the Book Of Mormon, each time it mentions Gentiles, it is referring to the historically Christan nations of the world - including USA being prideful, rejecting the gospel, and being trodden down.
Many try to force the meaning to say this means the modern LDS Church and pepoplebsd a whole.

this is utter nonsense.

Just reading through this thread for the first time. I do not think this was a very kind thing to say Brent. Heiro has his understanding and you have yours. That does not make his understanding/opinion nonsense. Maybe you could explain your understanding and we can see what the spirit tells us?

Who are the Gentiles? The liberals! ) (Isaiah 32:8)

Hi I am a Lamanite

An important distinction is that of "believing" vs. "unbelieving" Gentiles. Most of the prophecies don't distinguish between "believing" and "unbelieving" when speaking of the Gentiles, so excusing ourselves as church members from the prophetic warnings because we are "believing" Gentiles is dangerous.

clarkkent14 wrote:We are the Gemtiles.

I'd rather be a GEM than a TILE. ) )

chase wrote:An important distinction is that of "believing" vs. "unbelieving" Gentiles. Most of the prophecies don't distinguish between "believing" and "unbelieving" when speaking of the Gentiles, so excusing ourselves as church members from the prophetic warnings because we are "believing" Gentiles is dangerous.

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http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/gentile?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gentile

Gentile. The word gentiles means the nations, and eventually came to be used to mean all those not of the house of Israel. It is first used in Genesis with reference to the descendants of Japheth (Gen. 10:2–5). As used throughout the scriptures it has a dual meaning, sometimes to designate peoples of non-Israelite lineage, and other times to designate nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood therein. This latter usage is especially characteristic of the word as used in the Book of Mormon.

The duties of Israelites toward gentiles were defined in the law (Ex. 23:32; 34:12–16; Deut. 7:1–3; 20:10–18; 23:3–8; Ezra 9:2–15; 10:1–18; Neh. 13:1–3, 23–31). These regulations served to emphasize the distinction between Israel and gentile. However, there were numerous provisions showing that Israel was to deal justly and honestly with non-Israelites and to be compassionate toward them (Ex. 22:21; 23:9; Lev. 19:10, 33–34; 24:22).

The pious Jews of New Testament times held themselves aloof from contact with the gentiles. When a gentile was converted to Judaism, he was called a proselyte. Even in the Church there was a cultural and doctrinal struggle among many Jewish Christians before they would permit one of gentile lineage to enjoy full fellowship. The first gentiles to come into the New Testament Church were those who had already become proselytes to Judaism.

Cornelius (Acts 10–11) was the first gentile of whom we have record who came into the Christian Church without first being a proselyte to Judaism. He was introduced to the gospel of Jesus Christ through a series of divine manifestations both to him and to Peter.

Paul was called the “apostle of the Gentiles” (Rom. 11:13), and it was primarily through his ministry that the gospel was established among those of gentile lineage throughout Europe and Asia Minor, although the way was opened by Peter’s baptism of Cornelius. See also Cornelius; Proselytes.

Cornelius

Cornelius. A centurion at Caesarea, baptized by Peter (Acts 10). The significance of Cornelius’s baptism is that he was probably the first gentile to come into the Church not having previously become a proselyte to Judaism (see Proselytes). Other gentiles had joined the Church, but they had been converted to Judaism before becoming Christians, which caused no great commotion among Jewish Christians who thought of Christianity as having some ties with Judaism.

Preceding the baptism of Cornelius, there were several spiritual manifestations: the ministry of an angel to Cornelius; a vision to Peter showing that the dietary restrictions of the law of Moses were to be discontinued; the voice of the Spirit to Peter; and a manifestation of the power of the Holy Ghost, accompanied by the speaking in tongues. All of this would make clear the divine approval and direction of what was about to take place.

The baptism of Cornelius and his family marked a new dimension in the work of the Church in N.T. times, since it opened the way for the gospel to be preached to the gentiles directly, without going by way of Judaism. It is notable that this major event in the missionary activity of the Church was done through the ministry of Peter, the chief apostle, who held the keys of the kingdom of God at that time on the earth

Proselytes

Proselytes. Men of gentile birth who had been incorporated into the Jewish church. The ceremony of admission included circumcision, baptism, and a sacrifice. They were expected to observe the whole Mosaic law. Proselytes of this kind were probably few in number, though the Jews showed great zeal in their efforts to gain them (Matt. 23:15). In addition to these there were attached to most Jewish synagogues a number of “God-fearing” or “devout” gentiles, who attended the services, but only observed part of the ceremonial law, and who were regarded as outside the Jewish church. There are many references to men of this kind in the N.T. (e.g., Acts 10:2, 22; 13:16, 26, 43, 50; 16:14; 17:4, 17; 18:7).

The entry of a “Godfearer” or “devout” man into the Christian church caused considerable commotion among the rigid Jews in the church, since the “Godfearers” had not been circumcised as had the proselytes. Thus the joining of Cornelius was a momentous event (Acts 10–11), whereas the status of a proselyte such a Nicolas (identified in Acts 6:5) is barely mentioned.

The title page of the Book of Mormon says that the book is written for Jews and Gentiles. In this sense, gentile means a non-Jew. The Jews, as Nephi describes them, are those from Jerusalem. The Jews were descendants of Judah and Benjamin. Everyone else is a Gentile.

However, there are still three distinct groups of gentiles identified in 3 Nephi:
Believing
Unbelieving
Nations

Context determines the group.

A Random Phrase wrote:

chase wrote:An important distinction is that of "believing" vs. "unbelieving" Gentiles. Most of the prophecies don't distinguish between "believing" and "unbelieving" when speaking of the Gentiles, so excusing ourselves as church members from the prophetic warnings because we are "believing" Gentiles is dangerous.

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Belief in what?

Well, in the context of my comment, it doesn't matter what the belief is. The point is, if you think you are spared the warnings against the Gentiles simply because you consider yourself to be a self-proclaimed "believing" Gentile, you might be in for a rude awakening.

jbalm wrote:Belief in what?

I think there are four categories.

1. Those who do not believe there is a Christ.
2. Those who believe there is a Christ, yet live their life less than righteously.
3. Those who believe in Christ and try to live righteously.
4. Those who not only believe in Christ, but believe Christ, believe what He says; that He can render them clean and pure and save them.

From what we know through reading the Book of Mormon, the questi0on is...which category are we, today, supposed to be in?

I ran across this. It may be of some interest.

What is a Gentile?
September 20, 2007 — Sam MB

I, as many of us, have laughed with the outside world at the thought that there are Mormons, presumably in the expanses of rural Utah, who routinely refer to Jews as Gentiles. The observation that in Utah a Jew is a Gentile seems to adorn most current journalistic treatments of Mormonism. Never having met a live Mormon guilty of such a gaffe, I have long assumed they existed historically. The more work I do in early Mormonism, the less certain I am that such Mormons ever existed.
Under the term Gentile, we English-speakers generally intend a translation of Hebrew goyim, the nations, meaning those who are not of the house of Israel. Such a division of self vs. other or national (tribal, etc) vs. foreigner is typical of almost every society known and often bears considerable weight in constructing worldviews. For a society which has spent so much time struggling to maintain its identity against outsiders, Judaism’s version of this division has come to represent paradigmatically what it means to view someone as an outsider.

At some level, objections to Mormon appropriation of the term Gentile to refer to outsiders may relate to concern about Mormon intrusion on the difficult history of Jewish nationhood, a sense that yet another Christian (or para-Christian) group has appropriated Jewish history for their own purposes, demonstrating a lack of respect for the tradition from which the specific term arose. Others may object to the sense of “chosenness” implied by use of the term Gentile. I think people snicker, though, because they believe (or want to believe) that the LDS are just dumb enough to not appreciate the irony of calling the Jews Gentiles.

However, my readings in Mormon history through about 1845 (I will confess I have not been as drawn to the Utah period as many others whose work I greatly respect) have given me no indication that any LDS termed Jews Gentiles. According to early usage, Gentile referred very specifically to American Protestants (and perhaps Catholics). The house of Israel, with its “remnants” of Jacob and Joseph, comprised a) actual Jews, b) Latter Day Saints, whether by birth or ordinance, and c) the native inhabitants of the New World. The very few encounters with Jews that the Mormons actually had (Alex Neibaur, whom they converted to Mormonism, and Joshua/James Seixas whom they did not realize had converted to Protestantism) suggested their earnest fascination with Jews.

These Mormons did, as most Christians, believe that Jews had rejected their true Messiah (witness Oliver Cowdery’s published discussion with a New York rabbi during his mission to obtain reference materials for the Kirtland Hebrew School), even as they anxiously sought to engraft themselves into the sacred Old Testament covenant. However dated and unkind that belief and its ramifications sound now, Mormons are a drop in a very large bucket on this topic.

The earliest Mormons did not view Jews as Gentiles, they viewed themselves as a part of the house of Israel. I am entirely sympathetic to Jews rejecting such bizarre proselytes, although feeling vaguely flattered is another possible response. But Christian Israelitism is much larger than Mormonism. The Puritans believed they were acting out Old Testament history, and a wide variety of Protestants to this day have seen the secrets of their future in the history of the Jewish people. For heaven’s sake, the Armageddon that incites such silly fiction and horrifying warmongering among some sectors of the Evangelical Right is a mountain in Israel, Har Megido.

I worry a little that there is a paper I’m unaware of that shows how in 1860 or 1890 or 1930 Mormon Utahns began to call Jews Gentiles. Please bring it to my attention if so, because I just can’t find it in early Mormonism. Was this something Brigham Young was known for preaching? Does anyone know a living Mormon that calls Jews Gentiles?

Responses found here: http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/09/20/w ... a-gentile/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jbalm wrote:Belief in what?

The context makes it clear. The believing gentiles receive the fulness of the gospel and bring the gospel to the House of Israel. The unbelieving gentiles are clearly identified in 3 Nephi 16:

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

The above verse does not describe any church, it describes a nation. I have lived in many different areas, and I have children who have lived in many other areas throughout the US, and in Germany, and none of them have ever reported anything like what is described in verse 10. It just doesn't apply to a church.

The end result of their unbelief is that the fulness of the gospel is taken from among them, not from them, and then sent to Israel:

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

Now, some of the unbelieving gentiles will be LDS, but that doesn't change the context of the verse.

Gideon wrote:

jbalm wrote:Belief in what?

The context makes it clear. The believing gentiles receive the fulness of the gospel and bring the gospel to the House of Israel. The unbelieving gentiles are clearly identified in 3 Nephi 16:

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

The above verse does not describe any church, it describes a nation. I have lived in many different areas, and I have children who have lived in many other areas throughout the US, and in Germany, and none of them have ever reported anything like what is described in verse 10. It just doesn't apply to a church.

The end result of their unbelief is that the fulness of the gospel is taken from among them, not from them, and then sent to Israel:

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

Now, some of the unbelieving gentiles will be LDS, but that doesn't change the context of the verse.

Gideon, what about these verses a little further down in chap. 16?:

14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall atread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

Here the Lord is saying that the gentiles who will not repent and return to him are "as salt that has lost its savor". Then in D&C 101 the Lord clarifies WHO the "salt" is, or rather what makes a person become "salt":

39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

The Lord says the gentiles must repent & return to him or they will be tread down. Then he says those who will be tread down will be salt that has lost its savor. D&C shows that only those who covenant with an everlasting covenant are called salt, so to me this "salt" has to be the "believing" gentiles, and they are in danger of being tread down, because they reject the fulness and they don't repent & return to the Lord. How do you understand these verses talking about the salt of the earth?

reese wrote: Gideon, what about these verses a little further down in chap. 16?:

14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall atread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

Here the Lord is saying that the gentiles who will not repent and return to him are "as salt that has lost its savor". Then in D&C 101 the Lord clarifies WHO the "salt" is, or rather what makes a person become "salt":

39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

The Lord says the gentiles must repent & return to him or they will be tread down. Then he says those who will be tread down will be salt that has lost its savor. D&C shows that only those who covenant with an everlasting covenant are called salt, so to me this "salt" has to be the "believing" gentiles, and they are in danger of being tread down, because they reject the fulness and they don't repent & return to the Lord. How do you understand these verses talking about the salt of the earth?

Your post illustrates the context problem well. Here is my analysis:

Gentiles bring truth to scattered Israel:

these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer.
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Believing Gentiles are blessed:

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
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Context switches from believing to unbelieving Gentiles:

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
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Two groups of unbelieving Gentiles, apostates and those who never accept the gospel:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel,
=====================

The two groups are invited to repent (both) and return (apostates):

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
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The same ideas are expressed in chapter 21.

The term Gentiles includes all who are not Jews, and that means everyone else on earth who is not a Jew:
LDS
Catholics
Protestants
Hindus
Muslims
Taoists
Atheists
etc.

Which group is spreading the gospel throughout the earth? Who is promoting the Book of Mormon? These are the believing Gentiles.

Can you clarify this statement and explain the why you used the word "only"?: "D&C shows that only those who covenant with an everlasting covenant are called salt"

Gideon wrote:

reese wrote: 39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

Can you clarify this statement and explain the why you used the word "only"?: "D&C shows that only those who covenant with an everlasting covenant are called salt"

I guess I used the word "only" because D&C seems to say that you are 'only' the salt when you have done these things....Is any Christian considered to be salt? It seems like the Lord calls someone salt, only after they have covenanted with an everlasting covenant, does that mean anyone who accepts Christ as the Lord?

I think one of the reasons we see 3 Nephi 16 differently has to do with the definition of "believing". For example in 2 Nephi, Jacob says:

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

Clearly there are many people on this earth who "believe" in Jesus Christ, but they will not be saved. It is obviously something more than just accepting a certain religion, or set of beliefs. The BofM is consistant when it uses the word believe. So in my opinion it is entirely possible to be an active, worthy LDS and still not have the kind of "belief" that saves. And thus be one of the "unblelieving" gentiles, all the while thinking that it is not talking about us. And rejecting the fulness doesn't necessarily mean that the whole gospel is rejected, it only means that the fulness is what is rejected. Those who reject the fulness, still accept the "lessor" gospel, they just won't do what it takes to receive the fulness from Jesus' hand.

In a word: US

It is no one else but the modern LDS culture and the US culture who are filled with PRIDE as President Packer said ^^^^. That is why the US and we are under condemnation and right at the precipice of a massive fall. We have not lived up to our calling fully, as we should have. I trust no one who cannot fathom that - until their eyes are opened.

Christ is the one who determines those who believe and those who don't.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24 ¶Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

The Testimony of Jesus is what He has to say about us individually. It is His testimony that declares whether you are saved or not. If you have not had Jesus testify that you are His in the council of Heaven, then it really doesn't matter what you think of Him, because He doesn't know you.

reese, eric, Gad,

Thanks for your replies, you have all made some really good points. It is obvious that someone can be a member of the LDS church and still be considered an unbelieving Gentile, that applies to 50% of the church right now. However, I agree with eric that the Lord identified the USA as the group that feels they are above all the rest of the world. And, it is this group, that is filled with all of the other sins listed in chapter 16.

Although I agree with Gad, that the Saviour determines who is a believer in a general sense, I think that the believing Gentiles he discussed in 3 Nephi are the ones who bring the Book of Mormon to the remnants of Israel and help them to come to Christ.

My only purpose in this thread was to specifically identify who Christ was referring to when he discussed the Gentiles in 3 Nephi.

Gideon wrote:reese, eric, Gad,

Thanks for your replies, you have all made some really good points. It is obvious that someone can be a member of the LDS church and still be considered an unbelieving Gentile, that applies to 50% of the church right now. However, I agree with eric that the Lord identified the USA as the group that feels they are above all the rest of the world. And, it is this group, that is filled with all of the other sins listed in chapter 16.

Although I agree with Gad, that the Saviour determines who is a believer in a general sense, I think that the believing Gentiles he discussed in 3 Nephi are the ones who bring the Book of Mormon to the remnants of Israel and help them to come to Christ.

My only purpose in this thread was to specifically identify who Christ was referring to when he discussed the Gentiles in 3 Nephi.

Well reguardless of who the gentiles are exactly(I suspect we are all right to a degree), we should all be vigilant in our own lives to make sure that we don't fall into the catagory of the unbelieving gentiles who reject the fulness....because their fate sounds awful!