LDS Freedom Forum

The Book of Mormon was intended for the people who have primary access to it today. God knew that mostly "Mormons" would be reading, studying, and pondering the Book of Mormon, so "we" (the LDS people) must be the intended audience and the ones that need the warning. Nobody else really cares about the book, so it doesn't matter how evil or bad we think they are.

We gotta stop saying the it's the other guy who has the problem.

-Finrock

braingrunt wrote:

ATL Wake wrote: Moroni chapter 7 he is addressing the latter-day lamanites (remnant), chapter 8 he addresses the Gentiles, and chapter 9 he addresses the nonbeliever.

So chapters 7 and 8 may not apply to your nonmember friend, but do have him read chapter 9.

Something else occurred to me while thinking about this topic and reading Mormon8 to study your response. The phrase occurs in there "why have ye polluted the holy church of god?" and perhaps you naturally say, well, we are (or were) the holy church of god--so he must be talking to LDS.

A rebuttal is this: how would the first readers of the book of mormon have interpreted mormon 8? The BOM went on sale on march 26 1830, 11 days prior to the organization of the church. Would they say: here is a statement which relates to the church we are about to organize? Or rather, would they say that those words reveal apostate christianity, and show the need for the church that would soon be organized, with which the Lord could be well pleased? The latter, I think.

If so, they must have been in error in your view. The verses wouldn't have applied to those reading the book or anyone alive on the earth, for at least a few years I suppose, since if I understand you correctly you liked the church for a few years of it's organization.

I say no. The scripture did apply even before the church was organized or could be polluted. It was commentary on apostate christianity which had indeed originated as the holy church of God.

You are absolutely right.
We must also take into account the tense of the phrase. "Why have ye polluted the holy church of God?". This appears to be an event that has already occured when Moroni is writing it in around 400AD. If he was referring to us he could more properly have said "why do ye pollute the holy church of God?" or "why are ye polluting" or "cease polluting".

The argument is made that he must be addressing Mormons because we are the only ones who will read his words. If this is true then chapter 9 is obselete as it addresses those who do not believe in Christ at all. They are even less likely to read the BoM.

Robin Hood wrote:We must also take into account the tense of the phrase. "Why have ye polluted the holy church of God?". This appears to be an event that has already occured when Moroni is writing it in around 400AD. If he was referring to us he could more properly have said "why do ye pollute the holy church of God?" or "why are ye polluting" or "cease polluting".

The argument is made that he must be addressing Mormons because we are the only ones who will read his words. If this is true then chapter 9 is obselete as it addresses those who do not believe in Christ at all. They are even less likely to read the BoM.

Hi Robin Hood!

Jesus says, I AM.

-Finrock

Consider this: Take the phrase, "Why have ye polluted the holy church of God?" and then take Nephi's counsel "I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit".

We must liken the scriptures unto us so that it might be for our profit. Otherwise it will always be for the other guy's profit and we miss out on great blessing by NOT repenting. What a bummer!

-Finrock

The Title Page makes it clear that the Book of Mormon is addressing all people, not just LDS "Gentiles" - I find this Remnant/Denver argument/interpretation to be one of the more spurious. Go read every reference in the Book of Mormon to Gentile(s) and it is clear that it means other Gentiles besides us and even refers to us (those who receive it and covenants of the Lord) as numbered among the House of Israel many times.

Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile

Finrock wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:We must also take into account the tense of the phrase. "Why have ye polluted the holy church of God?". This appears to be an event that has already occured when Moroni is writing it in around 400AD. If he was referring to us he could more properly have said "why do ye pollute the holy church of God?" or "why are ye polluting" or "cease polluting".

The argument is made that he must be addressing Mormons because we are the only ones who will read his words. If this is true then chapter 9 is obselete as it addresses those who do not believe in Christ at all. They are even less likely to read the BoM.

Hi Robin Hood!

Jesus says, I AM.

-Finrock

Not quite the same thing, though I can see your line of thought.
I AM is both a title and a name. Not really a tense in this case.

Lord, is it I?

This is so simple that a child could, should understand. A Church under condemnation is not made up of righteous, believing people. The gentiles who inhabit that Church do not receive the blessings reserved for the righteous, believing saints. They are members of a condemned group of people. Even a more condemned people than the heathens they try to take the (what they believe is the Gospel of Christ ) word to. The only way they can be changed is to remember the BOM and the new covenant and to do, not just say.
Just because they are taking a condemned version of what they believe is Christs gospel to the world, Christ will still have to gather in His people, before the millennium.

20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.

21 And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice.

22 And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.

23 For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness.

24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.

25 Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.

26 Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.

29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

It's hard to believe that the Church with its origination, and prophets and temples is one of the great stumbling blocks keeping gentiles from seeking Zion.

Some of what is recorded in Mormon and Moroni's abridgment of the writings of former prophets, is on the latter-day church. We think its about non-Mormon Gentiles, and some times it is, but many times these are about the latter-day church's challenges.

Robin Hood wrote:

Finrock wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:We must also take into account the tense of the phrase. "Why have ye polluted the holy church of God?". This appears to be an event that has already occured when Moroni is writing it in around 400AD. If he was referring to us he could more properly have said "why do ye pollute the holy church of God?" or "why are ye polluting" or "cease polluting".

The argument is made that he must be addressing Mormons because we are the only ones who will read his words. If this is true then chapter 9 is obselete as it addresses those who do not believe in Christ at all. They are even less likely to read the BoM.

Hi Robin Hood!

Jesus says, I AM.

-Finrock

Not quite the same thing, though I can see your line of thought.
I AM is both a title and a name. Not really a tense in this case.

This name of Jesus Christ clearly is a reference to time and tense, by necessity. Before Abraham, I AM. Before time, I AM.

Here is some more evidence and perspective--Put it all together and it will become clear, said Jesus: God is no respector of persons; God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; all things are NOW to God; the first will be last the last will be first; "what I say unto one I say unto all: Watch, for the adversary spreadeth his dominions, and darkness reigneth."

-Finrock

Finrock wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

Finrock wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:We must also take into account the tense of the phrase. "Why have ye polluted the holy church of God?". This appears to be an event that has already occured when Moroni is writing it in around 400AD. If he was referring to us he could more properly have said "why do ye pollute the holy church of God?" or "why are ye polluting" or "cease polluting".

The argument is made that he must be addressing Mormons because we are the only ones who will read his words. If this is true then chapter 9 is obselete as it addresses those who do not believe in Christ at all. They are even less likely to read the BoM.

Hi Robin Hood!

Jesus says, I AM.

-Finrock

Not quite the same thing, though I can see your line of thought.
I AM is both a title and a name. Not really a tense in this case.

This name of Jesus Christ clearly is a reference to time and tense, by necessity. Before Abraham, I AM. Before time, I AM.

Here is some more evidence and perspective--Put it all together and it will become clear, said Jesus: God is no respector of persons; God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; all things are NOW to God; the first will be last the last will be first; "what I say unto one I say unto all: Watch, for the adversary spreadeth his dominions, and darkness reigneth."

-Finrock

It's actually "before Abraham was I am."
I think that settles it.

Robin Hood wrote:It's actually "before Abraham was I am."
I think that settles it.

Thank you Robin Hood for taking the time to engage! Hope you are feeling great.

It settles that I AM is a tense and deals with God's eternal nature and where He lives. He lives now. He speaks now. His words apply now. When God speaks He speaks from the tense of now/today.

We cannot say that God's words are not applicable to us because He was speaking in the past and of the past. God does not live in the past and never has. He lives always lives now.

God's words are eternal.

-Finrock

Finrock wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:It's actually "before Abraham was I am."
I think that settles it.

Thank you Robin Hood for taking the time to engage! Hope you are feeling great.

It settles that I AM is a tense and deals with God's eternal nature and where He lives. He lives now. He speaks now. His words apply now. When God speaks He speaks from the tense of now/today.

We cannot say that God's words are not applicable to us because He was speaking in the past and of the past. God does not live in the past and never has. He lives always lives now.

God's words are eternal.

-Finrock

You're right, of course.
I don't think I was saying that.

Sometimes gentiles means us as the lds church specifically, sometimes it doesn't; In spite of that realistic view, reading the scriptures as a "we thank thee that we are better than that!" would be a dumb practice. So by all means don't dismiss yourself from scrutiny by the spirit.

However, deep water etal, that want to push the church as a whole in front of that bus, IMO are not upheld by scriptural exegesis; but are instead building upon their own criticism, and might be guilty of trying to pollute the holy church with unfounded doubt from without.

ps, I don't take an "all is well" view, however, as we have seen in the other thread, there's lots of variance in what people mean by 'all is not well'. It's clear to me that we were not worthy of real zion in the early days, and are not worthy of zion now. However, I think we are getting the correct messages about what we should be doing to get there, based on our current overall levels of righteousness.

God will give us a kick in the pants someday.

braingrunt wrote:ps, I don't take an "all is well" view, however, as we have seen in the other thread, there's lots of variance in what people mean by 'all is not well'. It's clear to me that we were not worthy of real zion in the early days, and are not worthy of zion now. However, I think we are getting the correct messages about what we should be doing to get there, based on our current overall levels of righteousness.

God will give us a kick in the pants someday.

1 Nephi 14:5
5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.
Ether 2:11
11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
Ether 8:23
23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
2 Nephi 28:32
32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.
3 Nephi 16:13
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

Ether 4:6
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
2 Nephi 30:2
2 For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel.
3 Nephi 21:6
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
Mormon 5:22
22 And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?
3 Nephi 21:14
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
Acts 26:20
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Mormon 7:8
8 Therefore repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and lay hold upon the gospel of Christ, which shall be set before you, not only in this record but also in the record which shall come unto the Gentiles from the Jews, which record shall come from the Gentiles unto you.
3 nephi 20
15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—
16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
18 And I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.
19 For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it.
3 Nephi 30:2
2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

A Gentil that is under condemnation has not repented, has not come unto Christ, has not been baptised by the baptism that removes sin, has not received the Holy Ghost, are not numbered with Christs people. There is only two types of Gentiles, those who are Zion and those who are not. There are Zion members in the Church, however they are not who you think.

Two times Doctrine & Covenants 109:60 has been referenced in this discussion. Yet...most posts insist that members of the Latter-day Church are NOT Gentiles, either because of individual divine covenant lineage or foreordained baptismal 'selection'.

I would rather approach the LORD with hat-in-hand than proclaim special status in His House.

Doctrine & Covenants 109
60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.

From the title page in the Book of Mormon:

—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—

According to this, I'd say everyone that is not Jew is a Gentile.

Here is another example:

2 Nephi 10:16
16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

Whoops! Now we have a third category:

1 Corinthians 10:32
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Now what?

Okay, somebody straighten this out. Unless Lehi was Gentile living in Jerusalem, where did the Gentiles come from? Lehi and his family left Jerusalem and ended up in the Promised Land we know as America.
Prior to that, however, righteous Nephi and Sam, and unrighteous Laman and Lemuel were sent back into Jerusalem to get the records of the Jews, which indicates the Lehi and his family were Jews.
Laman and Lemuel had a falling out with their father (and others) and went their separate ways. So now we have Jews on both sides, Lehi and his family, minus Laman and Lemuel, following righteousness, and Laman and Lemuel following after wickedness. Yet they are all still Jews. And even though the Lamanites rebelled about the traditions of their fathers, they couldn't be rid of their bloodline as Jews.
Now we have the Nephites and the Lamanites, all Jews, fighting, warring and at each others throats even unto death.

So where do the Gentiles come in? And who are they really?

EmmaLee wrote:

A Random Phrase wrote:

chase wrote:An important distinction is that of "believing" vs. "unbelieving" Gentiles. Most of the prophecies don't distinguish between "believing" and "unbelieving" when speaking of the Gentiles, so excusing ourselves as church members from the prophetic warnings because we are "believing" Gentiles is dangerous.

1+

+2

+3

freedomforall wrote:Okay, somebody straighten this out. Unless Lehi was Gentile living in Jerusalem, where did the Gentiles come from? Lehi and his family left Jerusalem and ended up in the Promised Land we know as America.
Prior to that, however, righteous Nephi and Sam, and unrighteous Laman and Lemuel were sent back into Jerusalem to get the records of the Jews, which indicates the Lehi and his family were Jews.
Laman and Lemuel had a falling out with their father (and others) and went their separate ways. So now we have Jews on both sides, Lehi and his family, minus Laman and Lemuel, following righteousness, and Laman and Lemuel following after wickedness. Yet they are all still Jews. And even though the Lamanites rebelled about the traditions of their fathers, they could be rid of their bloodline as Jews.
Now we have the Nephites and the Lamanites, all Jews, fighting, warring and at each others throats even unto death.

So where do the Gentiles come in? And who are they really?

Will give you the brief description of my understanding. Depending on how you delineate the word Jew makes a significant difference. The term Jew was derived from Judah and many believe that the term originally applied only to Judah's descendants.
The Lord divorced Israel or the northern ten tribes. When that happened they were no longer considered the Lords people and the Lord said He would not be their God. Being divorced and scattered they, as a people, could be considered gentiles. With Judah or the southern kingdom being considered Jews. Later Israel(Ephraim), after becoming a multitude of nations, will be remarried to the Lord.

Analyzing wrote:

freedomforall wrote:Okay, somebody straighten this out. Unless Lehi was Gentile living in Jerusalem, where did the Gentiles come from? Lehi and his family left Jerusalem and ended up in the Promised Land we know as America.
Prior to that, however, righteous Nephi and Sam, and unrighteous Laman and Lemuel were sent back into Jerusalem to get the records of the Jews, which indicates the Lehi and his family were Jews.
Laman and Lemuel had a falling out with their father (and others) and went their separate ways. So now we have Jews on both sides, Lehi and his family, minus Laman and Lemuel, following righteousness, and Laman and Lemuel following after wickedness. Yet they are all still Jews. And even though the Lamanites rebelled about the traditions of their fathers, they couldn't [edited) be rid of their bloodline as Jews.
Now we have the Nephites and the Lamanites, all Jews, fighting, warring and at each others throats even unto death.

So where do the Gentiles come in? And who are they really?

Will give you the brief description of my understanding. Depending on how you delineate the word Jew makes a significant difference. The term Jew was derived from Judah and many believe that the term originally applied only to Judah's descendants.
The Lord divorced Israel or the northern ten tribes. When that happened they were no longer considered the Lords people and the Lord said He would not be their God. Being divorced and scattered they, as a people, could be considered gentiles. With Judah or the southern kingdom being considered Jews.

You may be right, I never really thought about it, but it does raise questions. And may have a lot to do with who the Jews actually are and could have been.

braingrunt wrote: ↑January 17th, 2013, 12:18 pm Most of us in the church are identified with the gentiles. What some people do, if I perceive correctly, is to make references to the gentiles pertain particularly to the church; no doubt some do, but by&large I believe the most correct target for most statements is the cultural USA.
Consider this one:

3Ne30


1 Hearken, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying:

2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.


Those gentiles there are not baptized; and perhaps most of the gentile statements in the preceeding chapters (which are powerful) can be colored in that light. This does not mean we treat them lightly.

To be baptized in his name is a meaning which virtually no one understands.

The mainstream and typical understanding of that phrase is to be baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

But the verse does not say that.

We interpret it to mean that based on our tradition, or unbelief.

When you do something in Christ's name, you are doing something in His mind, glory, will, likeness, and fulness.

I spent days and even weeks studying the meaning of that phrase, and if you look every phrase up in all of the standard works, I believe you will arrive at the conclusion I just stated above.

This is one of the most concise and exhaustive commandments we have in one verse. Christ is literally saying come into his physical presence. At which time you are in My fulness of glory and united with My mind, and I will forgive you of your sins and adopt you and therefore shall be numbered in My family, meaning you will become my adopted son or daughter.

That is the meaning.

So yes, Gentiles is referring to most definitely LDS Mormons and not to people not baptized into the mainstream LDS church in Salt Lake City.

Analyzing wrote: ↑October 19th, 2015, 2:42 am

freedomforall wrote:Okay, somebody straighten this out. Unless Lehi was Gentile living in Jerusalem, where did the Gentiles come from? Lehi and his family left Jerusalem and ended up in the Promised Land we know as America.
Prior to that, however, righteous Nephi and Sam, and unrighteous Laman and Lemuel were sent back into Jerusalem to get the records of the Jews, which indicates the Lehi and his family were Jews.
Laman and Lemuel had a falling out with their father (and others) and went their separate ways. So now we have Jews on both sides, Lehi and his family, minus Laman and Lemuel, following righteousness, and Laman and Lemuel following after wickedness. Yet they are all still Jews. And even though the Lamanites rebelled about the traditions of their fathers, they could be rid of their bloodline as Jews.
Now we have the Nephites and the Lamanites, all Jews, fighting, warring and at each others throats even unto death.

So where do the Gentiles come in? And who are they really?

Will give you the brief description of my understanding. Depending on how you delineate the word Jew makes a significant difference. The term Jew was derived from Judah and many believe that the term originally applied only to Judah's descendants.
The Lord divorced Israel or the northern ten tribes. When that happened they were no longer considered the Lords people and the Lord said He would not be their God. Being divorced and scattered they, as a people, could be considered gentiles. With Judah or the southern kingdom being considered Jews. Later Israel(Ephraim), after becoming a multitude of nations, will be remarried to the Lord.

You're only telling half of the story.
The Lord promised Abraham that he would remember his covenant with him. The Lord will therefore not forget his promise to gather Israel. They may have forgotten him, but he will remember them.

topcat wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:36 pm

braingrunt wrote: ↑January 17th, 2013, 12:18 pm Most of us in the church are identified with the gentiles. What some people do, if I perceive correctly, is to make references to the gentiles pertain particularly to the church; no doubt some do, but by&large I believe the most correct target for most statements is the cultural USA.
Consider this one:

3Ne30


1 Hearken, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying:

2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.


Those gentiles there are not baptized; and perhaps most of the gentile statements in the preceeding chapters (which are powerful) can be colored in that light. This does not mean we treat them lightly.

To be baptized in his name is a meaning which virtually no one understands.

The mainstream and typical understanding of that phrase is to be baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

But the verse does not say that.

We interpret it to mean that based on our tradition, or unbelief.

When you do something in Christ's name, you are doing something in His mind, glory, will, likeness, and fulness.

I spent days and even weeks studying the meaning of that phrase, and if you look every phrase up in all of the standard works, I believe you will arrive at the conclusion I just stated above.

This is one of the most concise and exhaustive commandments we have in one verse. Christ is literally saying come into his physical presence. At which time you are in My fulness of glory and united with My mind, and I will forgive you of your sins and adopt you and therefore shall be numbered in My family, meaning you will become my adopted son or daughter.

That is the meaning.

So yes, Gentiles is referring to most definitely LDS Mormons and not to people not baptized into the mainstream LDS church in Salt Lake City.

You're reaching. I'm unconvinced.

Look, I'm prideful enough to take my understanding over yours, and tease you about it; but I'm not too prideful to listen to thoroughly reasoned exegesis. You don't have it at this time.