I would also reccomend this book to all of those who would like to read a solid-LDS based analysis on this subject.rasattack wrote:I second the recommendation of this book.Stella Solaris wrote:This is a really good book to read on the subject - it pretty much covers every aspect you can think of - and yes, his conclusion (and mine, as well) is that what many call "aliens" are indeed of the devil.
Aliens & UFO's - Messengers or Deceivers? by James Thompson (LDS)
http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-UFOs-Messe ... 807&sr=8-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I also think that legitimate alien abduction stories are demonic interference. One of the common themes in abduction stories is the creation of hybrid offspring. If aliens are demons then this could be an attempt to do one or both of the following: 1) Gain a physical body. 2) Corrupt God's work. Some interpret Genesis 6 to mean fallen angels had children with humans, and God flooded the earth to destroy the corruption of his work. Noah was chosen because he was "perfect in his generations" as well as being righteous, and through him the human race was continued as created by God.
I don't automatically discount that all aliens are demonic. There are a few accounts that indicate spiritual brethren from other planets are observing what's going on here, but don't interfere with what's happening.
Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
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kingbmm
- captain of 100
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Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
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notjamesbond003.5
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moonwhim
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Mars Attacks: Military Prof Says Pentagon Has Plan to Fight Aliens
Kurt Nimmo
Infowars.com
April 10, 2012
Following the Second World War, a newly minted national security state designated the Soviet Union as a mortal enemy. It inaugurated the Cold War, a multiple trillion dollar, decades-long bonanza for the military-industrial complex Eisenhower would later warn about. Korea, Vietnam, and dozens of other countries around the world became the battleground for an epic (if largely mythical) and profitable struggle against an enemy created by Wall Street bankers (who also empowered Hitler and the Nazis).
Following the takedown of the Soviet Union, the ruling elite manufactured the specter of Islamic terrorism. This fictional enemy has provided an effective if limited pretext for continued military adventures and mass expenditures. It has also fed the growth of a domestic police and surveillance state. However, like the Soviet “threat,” the Islamic boogeyman does not have the capacity to truly frighten the masses and stampede them into unquestioning servility. It does not have the capacity to inculcate them with the proper fear-based mentality for permanent war.
Enter the alien threat. The scheme was pushed over the Easter holiday on Australian television by Professor Paul Springer from the U.S. Air Command and Staff College. During an interview, Springer said the government and the Pentagon have plans for an alien invasion.
The idea of an alien invasion is nothing new. Ronald Reagan mentioned the farcical possibility during a speech delivered before the United Nations in 1987. “In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world,” he said, alluding to the “common bond” of world government.
Aerospace executive and space and missile defense consultant Carol Rosin claims she had a discussion with Dr. Wernher von Braun, the former top ranking SS officer who headed up the Nazi rocket program during WWII and was sent to America to oversee its space program. According to Rosin, Wernher von Braun said the global elite will use a fake alien invasion in order to consolidate power and implement world government.
The Pentagon, of course, spends a whole lot of our money preparing for infeasible invasions and crises – including the discredited theory of climate change – but before you dismiss the idea of an alien invasion as ludicrous, consider the fact a number of prominent people are pushing it, including the Keynesian economist Paul Krugman and the renowned physicist Michio Kaku (see videos below). Not surprisingly, Kaku said we’d need a world government to fend off the threat. Krugman approached the unlikely prospect from an economic perspective, claiming in essence an alien invasion would be the greatest make-work project in human history and would help us out of the current economic downturn (also created, like the fake alien threat, by the global elite).
The man-made climate change crowd – exceedingly desperate now that their junk science theories have been disproven – are also pushing the alien invasion threat. A “scenario analysis” published by Cornell Universality states that aliens may punish us for emitting carbon into the atmosphere.
“A preemptive strike would be particularly likely in the early phases of our expansion because a civilization may become increasingly difficult to destroy as it continues to expand. Humanity may just now be entering the period in which its rapid civilisational expansion could be detected by an ETI because our expansion is changing the composition of the Earth’s atmosphere, via greenhouse gas emissions,” the report states.
“Green” aliens might object to the environmental damage humans have allegedly caused and wipe us out to save the planet. “These scenarios give us reason to limit our growth and reduce our impact on global ecosystems. It would be particularly important for us to limit our emissions of greenhouse gases, since atmospheric composition can be observed from other planets,” the Guardian reported last August, citing authors of the dubious report.
The reason for a fake alien invasion is not really important, though. What matters to the global elite is creating a super-crisis far worse than anything that could ever be produced by cave-dwelling Muslim terrorists manufactured by the CIA or posed by a super-state like the Soviet Union.
If Jim Marrs and others are correct – the United States military has an array of technologically advanced space craft and other technologies– these may be used by the elite to stage the ruse of an alien invasion and usher in world government as a savior.
Similar/Related Articles
URL to article: http://www.infowars.com/mars-attacks-mi ... ht-aliens/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kurt Nimmo
Infowars.com
April 10, 2012
Following the Second World War, a newly minted national security state designated the Soviet Union as a mortal enemy. It inaugurated the Cold War, a multiple trillion dollar, decades-long bonanza for the military-industrial complex Eisenhower would later warn about. Korea, Vietnam, and dozens of other countries around the world became the battleground for an epic (if largely mythical) and profitable struggle against an enemy created by Wall Street bankers (who also empowered Hitler and the Nazis).
Following the takedown of the Soviet Union, the ruling elite manufactured the specter of Islamic terrorism. This fictional enemy has provided an effective if limited pretext for continued military adventures and mass expenditures. It has also fed the growth of a domestic police and surveillance state. However, like the Soviet “threat,” the Islamic boogeyman does not have the capacity to truly frighten the masses and stampede them into unquestioning servility. It does not have the capacity to inculcate them with the proper fear-based mentality for permanent war.
Enter the alien threat. The scheme was pushed over the Easter holiday on Australian television by Professor Paul Springer from the U.S. Air Command and Staff College. During an interview, Springer said the government and the Pentagon have plans for an alien invasion.
The idea of an alien invasion is nothing new. Ronald Reagan mentioned the farcical possibility during a speech delivered before the United Nations in 1987. “In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world,” he said, alluding to the “common bond” of world government.
Aerospace executive and space and missile defense consultant Carol Rosin claims she had a discussion with Dr. Wernher von Braun, the former top ranking SS officer who headed up the Nazi rocket program during WWII and was sent to America to oversee its space program. According to Rosin, Wernher von Braun said the global elite will use a fake alien invasion in order to consolidate power and implement world government.
The Pentagon, of course, spends a whole lot of our money preparing for infeasible invasions and crises – including the discredited theory of climate change – but before you dismiss the idea of an alien invasion as ludicrous, consider the fact a number of prominent people are pushing it, including the Keynesian economist Paul Krugman and the renowned physicist Michio Kaku (see videos below). Not surprisingly, Kaku said we’d need a world government to fend off the threat. Krugman approached the unlikely prospect from an economic perspective, claiming in essence an alien invasion would be the greatest make-work project in human history and would help us out of the current economic downturn (also created, like the fake alien threat, by the global elite).
The man-made climate change crowd – exceedingly desperate now that their junk science theories have been disproven – are also pushing the alien invasion threat. A “scenario analysis” published by Cornell Universality states that aliens may punish us for emitting carbon into the atmosphere.
“A preemptive strike would be particularly likely in the early phases of our expansion because a civilization may become increasingly difficult to destroy as it continues to expand. Humanity may just now be entering the period in which its rapid civilisational expansion could be detected by an ETI because our expansion is changing the composition of the Earth’s atmosphere, via greenhouse gas emissions,” the report states.
“Green” aliens might object to the environmental damage humans have allegedly caused and wipe us out to save the planet. “These scenarios give us reason to limit our growth and reduce our impact on global ecosystems. It would be particularly important for us to limit our emissions of greenhouse gases, since atmospheric composition can be observed from other planets,” the Guardian reported last August, citing authors of the dubious report.
The reason for a fake alien invasion is not really important, though. What matters to the global elite is creating a super-crisis far worse than anything that could ever be produced by cave-dwelling Muslim terrorists manufactured by the CIA or posed by a super-state like the Soviet Union.
If Jim Marrs and others are correct – the United States military has an array of technologically advanced space craft and other technologies– these may be used by the elite to stage the ruse of an alien invasion and usher in world government as a savior.
Similar/Related Articles
URL to article: http://www.infowars.com/mars-attacks-mi ... ht-aliens/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Zkulptor
- captain of 100
- Posts: 943
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Numbers 13:28-33
28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are awalled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
29 The aAmalekites dwell in the land of the bsouth: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
30 And aCaleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31 But the amen that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33 And there we saw the agiants, the sons of Anak, which come of the bgiants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
So I guess their bloodline survived the flood? so the Canaanites where giants?The reason the people wept was not because the scouts had returned with information indicating that they'd had been misled by God almighty about the goodness of the land. Rather, they wept because the occupiers of the land that God had promised unto them were mightier, stronger, and were in fact giants, men of legendary exploits. These giants presented an intimidating obstacle. They were descendants of the infamous Nephilim, (Nephiyl) whose physical exploits and deeds were insurmountable. Their legend was acquired not only through the mere fact of their immense size and strength, but also because of their horrible reputation as bullies and tyrants.( Goliath?) These giants were notoriously known for their feats of power, and enormous cruelty in warfare. The children of Israel quickly surmised that extracting the Promised Land from their possession was a hopeless venture, and could not believe that a sovereign God would entreaty them into encroaching upon these enormous people, nor upon a particular land of promise that they already occupied.
One of the biggest questions I ever had was as to why The Lord would tell the Children of Israel to kill their men, women and children... and to destroy their altars, their groves ( sexual rituals of fertility?) etc... but if they were the evil beings/cannibals even ...then it makes perfect sense...
Deuteronomy 7:1-7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
Deuteronomy 9:1-3 Hear, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to possess nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and fenced up to heaven, A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak! Understand therefore this day, that the Lord thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the Lord hath said unto thee.
The Lord promised to deliver the Anakim, and the rest of the Canaanite tribes unto the hands of Israel. That was all the children of Israel should have ever been concerned with. Victory was assured! All that was necessary to win the land was to follow God. The giants in the land were simply just a test of Israel's faith in God. God had already decreed that the land was theirs! And indeed, God had already weighed the enormous iniquities of the Canaanite peoples, and judged that their sins had finally come to the full. (Genesis 15:16)
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A Random Phrase
- Follower of Christ
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Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
The Jaredites, who came out from the land of Babel, were also very large. It's possible they were considered giants (or maybe those who were living a thousand or so years later were a lot smaller).
7 And the king said unto him: Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that forty and three of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage.
8 And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.
9 And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought twenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.
10 And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound.
11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust; and there is no one in the land that is able to interpret the language or the engravings that are on the plates. Therefore I said unto thee: Canst thou translate?
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Simon
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Something that I find very interesting is the story of Joe Jordon.. He started to investigate the whole abduction phenomenon back in the 90`s.. He was not christian at that time.. But making the story short, while investigating this whole alien abduction thing, he found out that the only way of getting free from all of these experiences is true faith in Jesus Christ. He had helped over 400 people to stop abduction and alien experiences, and over 100 witnesses report about this at http://alienresistance.org/ce4testimonies.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No matter how powerfull these entitys are, there also seems to be a way to overcome them, and I find it interesting that in some christian churches they openly offer support on this... This alone prooves to me that all of this ufo stuff is eiher humanmade, demonic, or both mingled with eachother.
Something I can't stop thinking about is the physical / spiritual aspect of it.. Researchers as Joe Jordon have quiet a lot of experience on this, and it seems like they come to the conlousion that it is all a spiritual deception that just can apperar to be very physical. We know visions, dreams and sleep paralyzis can feel very real...even leaving physical traces....But mayby, for some reason they just want us to believe that there is a physical side to it... even though there isn't ( such as making hybrids, traveling on spaceships e.t.c. ) .... Mayby even the whole story of the watchers and their sons of god are part of that deception.... What do you think ??
No matter how powerfull these entitys are, there also seems to be a way to overcome them, and I find it interesting that in some christian churches they openly offer support on this... This alone prooves to me that all of this ufo stuff is eiher humanmade, demonic, or both mingled with eachother.
Something I can't stop thinking about is the physical / spiritual aspect of it.. Researchers as Joe Jordon have quiet a lot of experience on this, and it seems like they come to the conlousion that it is all a spiritual deception that just can apperar to be very physical. We know visions, dreams and sleep paralyzis can feel very real...even leaving physical traces....But mayby, for some reason they just want us to believe that there is a physical side to it... even though there isn't ( such as making hybrids, traveling on spaceships e.t.c. ) .... Mayby even the whole story of the watchers and their sons of god are part of that deception.... What do you think ??
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Simon
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1865
- Contact:
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
One thing to add..
As in old days. also today there seems to be a hybridization going on.. In old days, the sons of god with the human woman, and today also.. The intersting thing about it is that people that had abdutionexperiences could not get set free of that as long as they truely believed that they had a hybrid child with aliens... First after they saw this also as part of a deception, or a lie, they could stop these experiences.. I guess this alone tells us something... For some reason they want abducties to believe that this is really happening..
If the nephilim of old days were real.. that would at least explain why today these suppoused hybrids are not giants.. But at that time, the watchers were sealed up at tartarus for getting these children, so mayby today they don't do it because they know what would happen to their offspring if they really would .. Mayby the day will come where these things will happen again, just as the "days of noah were, so shall be the days before the second comming".... but until that day, it seems to be part of something they just want people to believe..
As in old days. also today there seems to be a hybridization going on.. In old days, the sons of god with the human woman, and today also.. The intersting thing about it is that people that had abdutionexperiences could not get set free of that as long as they truely believed that they had a hybrid child with aliens... First after they saw this also as part of a deception, or a lie, they could stop these experiences.. I guess this alone tells us something... For some reason they want abducties to believe that this is really happening..
If the nephilim of old days were real.. that would at least explain why today these suppoused hybrids are not giants.. But at that time, the watchers were sealed up at tartarus for getting these children, so mayby today they don't do it because they know what would happen to their offspring if they really would .. Mayby the day will come where these things will happen again, just as the "days of noah were, so shall be the days before the second comming".... but until that day, it seems to be part of something they just want people to believe..
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Rock34
- captain of 100
- Posts: 249
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Grays are cyborg servants of people in the earth. At least that's what Rodney Cluff thought (listen to his Coast to Coast interview). And God is an "alien" from outer space, namely Kolob.davedan wrote:God tells Joseph Smith he would never send angels except those that belong to the Earth .
Eg No aliens visiting from other planets.
http://www.ourhollowearth.com/ourhollo/p1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Fiannan
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 12983
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Have people considered the idea that these so-called aliens are actually survivors of the Great Flood who may have found means of escaping using advanced technology? If so they would be quite human, probably larger than the average human and might possess the same mind-sets that caused God to destroy the planet in the first Place.
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9912
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
I''m pretty much with Heir of Numenor on the watchers.
How can the watchers be shut up, and yet one have experience with them? I don't think so.
Seriously??
How can the watchers be shut up, and yet one have experience with them? I don't think so.
So God didn't know what the "fallen angels" were going to do before that it would happen, He allowed them to do it, and then allowed it to continue? This was all part of His plan?DC 130:5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.
6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;
7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
Seriously??
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jimmy
- captain of 50
- Posts: 62
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Saw one of those little green guys the other night, he and bigfoot were sitting around a campfire roasting marshmellows.
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buffalo_girl
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7085
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
No, I think it's like this little Russian hedgehog, lost in the fog....
Certainly, the 'spooks' love to have us afraid of things in the dark.
Certainly, the 'spooks' love to have us afraid of things in the dark.
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HeberC
- captain of 100
- Posts: 303
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
I watched an old episode of Supernatural where Dean Winchester got abducted by aliens. His brother Sam asked him what it was like. Dean said, "..bunch of grabby incandescent douche bags".
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shestalou
- captain of 100
- Posts: 379
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Anyone have any experience with the watcher's and the city of enoch was protected and what about Cain during the flood?
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Rock34
- captain of 100
- Posts: 249
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
Demons are demons. I usually associate that with purely spiritual, negative entities. Church doctrine says its the third that rejected the plan, and followed Satan. They don't have physical bodies. They can only possess bodies for a short time (like the pigs running into the lake).
Grays on the other hand are like cyborg/semi-organic entities that conduct research on humans. It may be some form of surveillance for an extraterrestrial society. They seem to be able to wipe the memory of abduction (i.e. unlink the reference of the event in one's brain so that one can only recall it through hypnosis or another altered state). They don't seem evil to me, but they could serve sinister entities as slaves.
There are other aliens that look like the androgynous "angels" often depicted in church paintings (like the Second Coming one with Jesus coming down over the desert). These are the types of beings that the residents of Sodom were so attracted to. They have been called "nordic aliens" since they loosely resemble Scandinavian peoples. They are probably what the actual Nordic people based their elf traditions off of. They look very human, but have a glow about them.
Nephilim are physical entities of corrupt nature, probably human-like as well. They came down here and mated with daughters of men before the Flood. They were either giant or possessing of superhuman abilities warranting the "Nephi" description. (Nephi in the Book of Mormon said that he was "large of stature"). These seem like a mixed bag. Are they pure evil? I don't think so. They are probably more like typical corrupt humans morally, only with more power. Some may still sit on thrones and in oval offices or board rooms today...
There are a lot more human-like entities out there. I think the evolution of a body is patterned to certain thought patterns. Since self-aware Intelligence came first and exists as the ultimate metaphysic, it can create life in similar patterns across galaxies, adapted to an environment of that planet. Skeptics like Carl Sagan thought it was ridiculous for other planets to have life that looks like it does here, but most of these skeptics either don't believe in the primal spirit forces involved at the highest creation dimensions, or purposely obfuscate or deny it. It is impossible to understand life in the cosmos with just the mechanics of materialism. BTW, Sagan's friend, fellow astrophysicist and ufo-researcher Stanton Friedman thinks Sagan may have been a public disinfo "expert" on alien life. It wouldn't be the first time some brilliant mind was bought off to add credibility to a cause that has no credibility.
I think reptilians are also real. Biblical usage of the "dragon" and "serpent" types are not in vain. Sure these creatures have some symbolic qualities that make for good meaningful types (like the Snake/DNA helix), but racial memories of "dragons" are all over the place, especially in the Far Eastern countries like China and Japan. I think there is an advanced reptoid species living close to humans who exist between dimensions. They can wrap around / lock into people's spines and control them somehow. There are a lot of encoded shows like V and Stargate SG-1 (thought Stargate the original movie seems closer to an inter-dimensional entity). This stuff is all over science fiction. Hardly ever are they depicted as good guys. From what some people say about them, the movies may make them look more benevolent than they really are... Vicious creatures. Think of a komodo dragon with a more developed brain and a set of hands. I think I'd rather spend an evening with Lucifer than one of these. I think the Bible authors knew these beings existed, and likened the human Lucifer / Satan to a reptile.
Speaking of sci-fi, Glen Larson made a great original TV series, Battlestar Galactica (aka Adam's Ark). I think this man had an inside track on the real situation in outer space. In the original series, Cylons were created by a reptilian race, and many human defectors pledged their services to these cruel, heartless entities of superior cunning. In the show these beings represented evil facing humanity. There were also the glowing angelic beings and the deceiving Lucifer. This is the show to watch for a Mormon take on outer space. I don't know what the new series is like, though I imagine they changed a lot of things to make it more politically correct and entertaining for modern audiences.
There are more known species out there. If you want more outlandish stories, pick up something from David Icke (if you want to take a trip to New Age land and don't mind his views that Mormons are the spiritual branch of Illuminati...). John Lear seems to have a very matter-of-fact inside scoop on this alien agenda. That guy must have some important people protecting him, with all the stuff he discloses as an insider.
Grays on the other hand are like cyborg/semi-organic entities that conduct research on humans. It may be some form of surveillance for an extraterrestrial society. They seem to be able to wipe the memory of abduction (i.e. unlink the reference of the event in one's brain so that one can only recall it through hypnosis or another altered state). They don't seem evil to me, but they could serve sinister entities as slaves.
There are other aliens that look like the androgynous "angels" often depicted in church paintings (like the Second Coming one with Jesus coming down over the desert). These are the types of beings that the residents of Sodom were so attracted to. They have been called "nordic aliens" since they loosely resemble Scandinavian peoples. They are probably what the actual Nordic people based their elf traditions off of. They look very human, but have a glow about them.
Nephilim are physical entities of corrupt nature, probably human-like as well. They came down here and mated with daughters of men before the Flood. They were either giant or possessing of superhuman abilities warranting the "Nephi" description. (Nephi in the Book of Mormon said that he was "large of stature"). These seem like a mixed bag. Are they pure evil? I don't think so. They are probably more like typical corrupt humans morally, only with more power. Some may still sit on thrones and in oval offices or board rooms today...
There are a lot more human-like entities out there. I think the evolution of a body is patterned to certain thought patterns. Since self-aware Intelligence came first and exists as the ultimate metaphysic, it can create life in similar patterns across galaxies, adapted to an environment of that planet. Skeptics like Carl Sagan thought it was ridiculous for other planets to have life that looks like it does here, but most of these skeptics either don't believe in the primal spirit forces involved at the highest creation dimensions, or purposely obfuscate or deny it. It is impossible to understand life in the cosmos with just the mechanics of materialism. BTW, Sagan's friend, fellow astrophysicist and ufo-researcher Stanton Friedman thinks Sagan may have been a public disinfo "expert" on alien life. It wouldn't be the first time some brilliant mind was bought off to add credibility to a cause that has no credibility.
I think reptilians are also real. Biblical usage of the "dragon" and "serpent" types are not in vain. Sure these creatures have some symbolic qualities that make for good meaningful types (like the Snake/DNA helix), but racial memories of "dragons" are all over the place, especially in the Far Eastern countries like China and Japan. I think there is an advanced reptoid species living close to humans who exist between dimensions. They can wrap around / lock into people's spines and control them somehow. There are a lot of encoded shows like V and Stargate SG-1 (thought Stargate the original movie seems closer to an inter-dimensional entity). This stuff is all over science fiction. Hardly ever are they depicted as good guys. From what some people say about them, the movies may make them look more benevolent than they really are... Vicious creatures. Think of a komodo dragon with a more developed brain and a set of hands. I think I'd rather spend an evening with Lucifer than one of these. I think the Bible authors knew these beings existed, and likened the human Lucifer / Satan to a reptile.
Speaking of sci-fi, Glen Larson made a great original TV series, Battlestar Galactica (aka Adam's Ark). I think this man had an inside track on the real situation in outer space. In the original series, Cylons were created by a reptilian race, and many human defectors pledged their services to these cruel, heartless entities of superior cunning. In the show these beings represented evil facing humanity. There were also the glowing angelic beings and the deceiving Lucifer. This is the show to watch for a Mormon take on outer space. I don't know what the new series is like, though I imagine they changed a lot of things to make it more politically correct and entertaining for modern audiences.
There are more known species out there. If you want more outlandish stories, pick up something from David Icke (if you want to take a trip to New Age land and don't mind his views that Mormons are the spiritual branch of Illuminati...). John Lear seems to have a very matter-of-fact inside scoop on this alien agenda. That guy must have some important people protecting him, with all the stuff he discloses as an insider.
Last edited by Rock34 on April 30th, 2013, 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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EmmaLee
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10890
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
I highly recommend these two books on the subject written by an LDS author -
http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-UFOs-Messe ... aliens+ufo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Encounters- ... aliens+ufo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-UFOs-Messe ... aliens+ufo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Encounters- ... aliens+ufo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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DeathHasLostItsSting
- captain of 10
- Posts: 13
- Location: Stockholm, Wisconsin
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
=)) :))jimmy wrote:Saw one of those little green guys the other night, he and bigfoot were sitting around a campfire roasting marshmellows.
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DeathHasLostItsSting
- captain of 10
- Posts: 13
- Location: Stockholm, Wisconsin
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
I think this is dangerous stuff to get into. We have been promised that we will know all things if we are faithful. Lets keep our sights on what we need to do (bring the gospel to all the land). I think Aliens are demonic and that these "UFOs" are not from other worlds. I do know that there is life on other planets. That is as far as I will go.....
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drjme
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1270
- Location: Middle Earth
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
This quite scientific post on reddit bought me to the conclusion that aliens would be demons
Link for gifs, animations and more info
http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/co ... ?context=3
EDIT: Thanks to everyone who corrected my abysmally bad volume calculation. Working in ancient history, Navy nuclear power, and corrections has atrophied my mathematics skills :c And thank you so much for the gold! I'm really happy this post started conversations, I love astronomy so much and I like seeing others interested in it too!
EDIT 2: Now with 100% less swearing!
I am not going to address the actual Roswell landing, what I am going to address is any alien life coming to Earth at all. Ever.
I study astronomy as a hobby, I have ever since I was a kid. One of the questions anyone who studies astronomy will inevitably wonder is if alien life exists (it absolutely does/has/will) and if it has ever (or will ever) come to Earth (it has not, and will not). It's sad to be an astronomy lover and a sci-fi fan and know with such certainty that this has never occurred.
So let me explain....
1. THE SIZE OF THE GALAXY
This is not to be taken lightly or overlooked. The galaxy is absolutely enormous. I cannot stress that enough. Our galaxy is a barred-spiral galaxy, and looks something like this. So how big is that? Well...
In terms of distances, the Milky Way is 1,000 light years "thick", and has a diameter of 100,000 - 120,000 light years. (As per NASA) So let's imagine the Milky Way as a massive cylinder in space, what is its volume? Well, volume of a cylinder = radius2 * height * pi. That gives us approximately 10 TRILLION cubic light-years. That's a whole lot of space, and that's not including the massive amounts of dark matter in the Milky Way or the massive Halo of stars that surrounds the Milky Way.
So that is a hell of a lot of light-years, but what, exactly, is a light-year? In case you don't know what a light year is, it is the distance that light travels in 1 full year, which is about 5.8 trillion miles (or, 5,800,000,000,000 miles). The nearest star is 4.3 light years away, meaning it is about (4.3) x (5.8 trillion miles) away. NASA explains it quite well.
So, again, let's go back to our imaginary cylinder that is the Milky Way galaxy. That sucker is 10 trillion cubic light years of volume. And a light year is 5.8 trillion miles. Therefore, every cubic light year is 2.03 x 1038 cubic miles. This means that the volume of the galaxy is 2.03 x 1051 cubic miles, which looks like 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 mi3. That is the volume of the cylinder that is our galaxy. (thanks to /u/jackfg, /u/stjuuv, /u/hazie, /u/Wianie, and everyone else who pointed out my earlier erroneous calculation!)
TRAVEL
Okay, you admit, the Milky Way galaxy is unfathomably huge. And, to top it off, it's only one of hundreds of billions of galaxies. BUT, as you correctly would point out, most of the "volume" we calculated previously is empty space, so you don't really need to search empty space for other lifeforms, you just need to look at stars and planets. Great point, but it gets you nowhere. Why? Well...
Even thought we've cut down our search to just the stars, we still have the astronomical problem of actually getting to them. Traveling from the Earth to the Moon takes about 1.2 seconds for light. You can see it in a neat little .gif right here. So how long did it take our astronauts in a rocket-fueled spaceship? It took the Apollo missions about 3 days and 4 hours to get there. So a trip that takes light about 1.2 seconds would take a rocket-propelled ship about 3.16 days, give or take. It takes light 8 minutes to get to the Sun. It takes light 4.3 years to get to the nearest star. Now just stop and imagine how long that trip to the nearest star would take going at the speed it took us to get to the Moon. A dozen generations of human beings would live and die in that amount of time. The greatest technology we have and all of Earth's resources could not get these hypothetical astronauts even out of our Solar System. (And in doing so, the radiation would fry them like bacon, micro-meteorites would turn them to swiss-cheese, and so on).
So, our hypothetical aliens are not traveling on rockets. They simply can't be. The distances are enormous, the dangers unfathomable, and they don't have infinite time to be getting this mission done. Remember when I said that galaxy is 100,000+ light years across? Imagine traveling that in something that takes generations to go 4.3 light years. There quite literally has not been enough time since the Big Bang for such a flight to be completed. So, clearly, anything making these journeys would need a method of travel that simply doesn't exist. We can posit anything from solar sails that accelerate a craft up to 99% the speed of light, or anything else that allows travelers to accelerate up to relativistic speeds in between star systems. The problem, however, is that acceleration/deceleration (as well as travel between these stars, maneuvering while in flight, and so forth) still takes years and years and years and years. And that's not including actually searching these star systems for any kind of life once you get there. You see, once you decelerate this craft within a star system, you still have to mosey your @#$ up to every single planet and poke around for life. You might think you could just look at each one, but it's not even possible for a telescope to be built that can see a house on Earth from the Moon, so good luck finding life when you're on the other side of the solar system (and that's if the planet's even in view when your spaceship arrives). And how, exactly, are you going to poke around from planet to planet? What will you do to replenish the ship's resources? You certainly aren't going to be carrying water and food to last until the end of time, and without the infinite energy of the Sun beating over your head, you're going to have a tough time replenishing and storing energy to be doing this mission even after you get as far as Saturn, where the Sun becomes significantly smaller in the "sky". So the logistics of getting from one star to the other are huge, unmanageable, a complete mess for propulsion systems of any kind. Everything Earth has could be pored into the mission and we wouldn't get out of the Oort Cloud. And even if we did, then what? Cross your fingers and hope you can replenish supplies in the nearest star? How are you going to keep going after that? How suicidal is this mission? And that's just to the nearest star. What happens if the ship needs repairs? How many of these missions can you send out? If you only send out one, you're looking at taking eons just to search 1% of our galaxy, but the resources to send out a fleet of these ships doesn't exist. And how will you even know they succeeded? Any communication they send back will take half a decade to get here because those transmissions move at light speed, and that's IF they manage to point their transmitter in the right direction so that we can even hear them. It would take us decades to even realize we'd need to send a second ship if the first one failed.
Now remember how I said that the volume of the Milky Way wasn't relevant since you're just looking for stars and planets, not combing all of empty space? That wasn't 100% accurate, because now you're starting to realize that you actually have to traverse all of that empty space. To get from star to star requires crossing those unparalleled voids. That whatever-the-@#$!%&!-however-huge quadra-trillio-billions of miles is suddenly looking a bit more massive again. And keep in mind, all of these deadly, insurmountable problems I've laid bare are just getting to the nearest star from Earth. And there are a lot of stars in the Milky Way, as we will shortly see.
EDIT TO INCLUDE DEATH: It's also worth noting that when traveling at relativistic speeds you are going to have an awful time maneuvering this ship. So what do you do when a rock the size of a fist is headed right for your vessel? You die, that's what, because you are not getting out of its way. And that's if you see it, but you most likely would never know. Micrometeors and space dust smaller than your pinkie-nail would shred your ship to absolute pieces. Space is not empty, it is full of small little things, and a ship with a propulsion system would slam into all of them on its journey. I cannot find the source, but a paper I read years ago proposed the smallest "shield" needed to safely do this on one trip would be miles thick of metal all around a ship, and that's only if the ship was as big as a house. Insanity. Propulsion systems will not work for this voyage if they're going that fast.
THE POINT BEING: So clearly, at this point, we have to resort to magic. That's right, no-kidding magic. We're talking about Faster-than-Light travel, because anything else is utterly doomed. And honestly, there isn't much to say on FTL travel, because it's pure speculative magic. It's so crazy that in accomplishing it you create time-travel, time paradoxes, and you break all of special relativity into nice tiny chaotic pieces. But, as this is hypothetical, I'm going to grant you faster than light travel. No explanation, we'll just use MAGIC and be done with it, but if you're curious, here's some reading on the matter.
Finally, we are going to keep all of this travel within the Milky Way galaxy. Why? Well, we're staying confined to just the Milky Way because, quite frankly, it's already an absurd scenario without magnifying all the problems by a magnitude of 100+ billion more galaxies. As stated earlier, there are hundreds of billions of galaxies (in fact, when Hubble looked out into a patch of sky smaller than your pinky nail, it saw 10,000 galaxies, but there are untold-numbers of galaxies too far away to see, so that number is the minimum in just that patch of sky. There's a lot of galaxies in the universe).
SO, to recap: our hypothetical aliens are from the Milky Way, they are searching in the Milky Way, and they can travel faster than light. PROBLEM SOLVED, right? Now our aliens will inevitably find Earth and humans, right...? Yeah, about that... (CONTINUED)
perma-linksave
[–]17thknight 1633 points 4 days ago*
STARS AND PLANETS
Okay, so I've granted you not only that we aren't searching all of the massive volume of the Milky Way (just the stars), I'm now granting you faster-than-light travel (with no explanation or justification, but that's how we have to play this game). But I still haven't even brought out the big guns, because the biggest and most important question of all hasn't been addressed: How many stars and planets are the aliens actually looking through, just in the Milky Way galaxy? Well....
There are anywhere from 100 billion - 400 billion stars in just the Milky Way galaxy. Determining this number involves calculations of mass, volume, gravitational attraction, observation, and more. This is why there is such a disparity between the high and low estimates. We'll go with a number of 200 billion stars in the Milky Way for our purposes, simply because it's somewhat in between 100 billion and 400 billion but is still conservative in its estimation. So our hypothetical aliens have to "only" search 200 billion stars for life.
Now we're saying the aliens have faster than light travel. Let's, in fact, say that the amount of time it takes them to travel from one star to the other is a piddly 1 day. So 1 day to travel from 1 star to the next.
Yet, we still haven't addressed an important point: How many planets are they searching through? Well, it is unknown how many planets there are in the galaxy. This Image shows about how far out humans have been able to find planets from Earth. Not very far, to say the least. The primary means of finding planets from Earth is by viewing the motions of a star and how it is perturbed by the gravity of its orbiting planets. We call these planets Exoplanets. Now, what's really fascinating is that scientists have found exoplanets even around stars that should not have them, such as pulsars.
So our aliens have their work cut out for them, because it looks like they more or less have to search every star for planets. And then search every planet for life. So, again HOW MANY PLANETS? Well, we have to be hypothetical, but let's assume an average of 4-5 planets per star. Some stars have none, some have lots, and so on. That is about 800 billion - 1 trillion planets that must be investigated. We gave our aliens 1 day to travel to a star, let's give them 1 day per planet to get to that planet and do a thorough search for life.
Now why can't the aliens just narrow this number down and not look at some planets and some stars? Because they, like us, can't know the nature of all life in the universe. They would have to look everywhere, and they would have to look closely.
Summary: So we've given our aliens just under 1 week per solar system to accurately search for life in it, give or take, and that includes travel time. We've had to do this, remember, by essentially giving them magic powers, but why not, this is hypothetical. This would mean, just to search the Milky Way for life (by searching every star) and just to do it one time, would take them approximately 3 BILLION years, give or take. That is 1/5 the age of the universe. That is almost the age of the planet Earth itself. If the aliens had flown through our solar system before there was life, they wouldn't be back until the Sun had turned into a Red Giant and engulfed our planet in flames. Anything short of millions of space-ships, with magical powers, magically searching planets in a matter of a day for life, would simply be doomed.
Oh, but wait, maybe they can narrow it down by finding us with our "radio transmissions", right? They're watching Hitler on their tvs so they know where to find us! Yeah, well...
ON VIEWING EARTH AND RADIO TRANSMISSIONS
Regardless of whether or not our magical aliens have magical faster-than-light travel, there is one thing that does not travel faster than light, and that thing is.... light. So how far out have the transmissions from Earth managed to get since we started broadcasting? About this far. So good luck, aliens, because you're going to need it. This is, of course, assuming the transmissions even get that far, because recent studies have shown that after a couple tiny light years those transmissions turn into noise and are indistinguishable from the background noise of the universe. In other words, they become a grain of sand on an infinite beach. No alien is going to find our tv/radio transmissions, possibly not even on the nearest star to Earth.
So what if they have super-duper telescopes? Well, the size it would take for a telescope to view the flag on the Moon just from Earth would need to be 650 feet in diameter. And that's if you knew exactly what you were looking for, and where, and were essentially on top of the thing. Seeing details of any planet like Earth from any distance outside the solar system is 100% impossible. Seeing details once inside the solar system would take massive telescopes, and even then you'd need to know where the planets are to look at, you'd need to know what you were looking for, and that's assuming the aliens you're looking for on those planets are just strolling around on the surface. After all, most of Earth is ocean and intelligent life could have easily evolved there and not on land. And what about underground? You need to study these worlds pretty carefully (though, granted, Earth has us just right up on the surface making it easier once you are actually staring right at the planet).
TIME
There is one final nail in this coffin and that is one of time. Human beings have only existed on this planet for the past few tens of thousands of years. We've only had civilization for 10,000 years. In other words, if the entire history of the Earth were represented as a 24 hour clock, humans have existed for a grand total of 1.92 seconds out of that 24 hour clock. The point is that this would mean an alien would not only need to find Earth within the entire unfathomable galaxy, they would need to find it within a specific time-frame. It's not as though we'll be here for billions of years while they search, and if they are even a fraction too early, we won't exist yet.
Think of it this way. If it "only" took the aliens 100 million years to comb the entire galaxy for life on Earth, they would have .0001% of that amount of time as a window in which they could find humans at all. To find human civilization is .00001% of that time. To find us as we are now is an even smaller fraction. In fact, the dinosaurs went extinct 60,000,000 years ago, so even if they make a return trip, and if they were last here when the dinosaurs went extinct, they won't be due back for 40 million+ years. And that's if we give them ultra-super-duper magical powers so they can scan the whole galaxy in "just" 100 million years.
So our aliens are not only finding our invisible planet in a crazy-huge galaxy, they are finding it in a VERY specific and narrow amount of time. Outside of that, they'd be far more likely to find our planet as a frozen wasteland, a molten slag-ball from pole to pole, or just find dinosaurs. Again, IF they found it at all, ever, which doesn't seem terribly likely in the first place.
SUMMARY
So, as discussed:
It is impossible for aliens to directly view Earth, the planet, and certainly not details of it from outside the solar system.
It is impossible for them to pick up transmissions from Earth even at our nearest star.
Therefore they have to actually go solar system to solar system in order to hunt down life, even intelligent life.
The distances they must travel are enormous.
The number of stars they have to search is enormous.
The window they have to find us in is extremely small, so that even if they made a return trip it would be long after we are extinct.
Combining these amounts of time needed, the amount of space to be searched, and the TINY fractional window they have to accomplish this in, we are looking at something that is an impossibility compounded by an impossibility.
And that's not even getting into the fact that we're positing the aliens have existed for this long. How many alien intelligences are there in our galaxy? What if there's only one that ever pops up in any galaxy? What if there have been 1,000 others in the Milky Way but they're already all extinct? What if they don't exist yet? These are utterly unanswerable, which is why I don't go much into what the aliens are or how many there might be, but it does provide further layers upon layers upon layers of problems. The mess that one need sift through to even begin to hope for aliens bumbling into Earth and start probing us is enormous, unfathomable, immeasurable.
So, I hope you can now see why Roswell is pure crap. It's a roundabout way of getting there, but I can say with absolute certainty two things:
Given the massive size of the universe and the time it has existed, it is 100% certain that alien intelligence exists (or has existed) somewhere else in the universe.
It is 100% guaranteed they have never, and will never, find us on this planet.
EDIT: Some people balked at my 100%. To me, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999...% is 100%.
Link for gifs, animations and more info
http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/co ... ?context=3
EDIT: Thanks to everyone who corrected my abysmally bad volume calculation. Working in ancient history, Navy nuclear power, and corrections has atrophied my mathematics skills :c And thank you so much for the gold! I'm really happy this post started conversations, I love astronomy so much and I like seeing others interested in it too!
EDIT 2: Now with 100% less swearing!
I am not going to address the actual Roswell landing, what I am going to address is any alien life coming to Earth at all. Ever.
I study astronomy as a hobby, I have ever since I was a kid. One of the questions anyone who studies astronomy will inevitably wonder is if alien life exists (it absolutely does/has/will) and if it has ever (or will ever) come to Earth (it has not, and will not). It's sad to be an astronomy lover and a sci-fi fan and know with such certainty that this has never occurred.
So let me explain....
1. THE SIZE OF THE GALAXY
This is not to be taken lightly or overlooked. The galaxy is absolutely enormous. I cannot stress that enough. Our galaxy is a barred-spiral galaxy, and looks something like this. So how big is that? Well...
In terms of distances, the Milky Way is 1,000 light years "thick", and has a diameter of 100,000 - 120,000 light years. (As per NASA) So let's imagine the Milky Way as a massive cylinder in space, what is its volume? Well, volume of a cylinder = radius2 * height * pi. That gives us approximately 10 TRILLION cubic light-years. That's a whole lot of space, and that's not including the massive amounts of dark matter in the Milky Way or the massive Halo of stars that surrounds the Milky Way.
So that is a hell of a lot of light-years, but what, exactly, is a light-year? In case you don't know what a light year is, it is the distance that light travels in 1 full year, which is about 5.8 trillion miles (or, 5,800,000,000,000 miles). The nearest star is 4.3 light years away, meaning it is about (4.3) x (5.8 trillion miles) away. NASA explains it quite well.
So, again, let's go back to our imaginary cylinder that is the Milky Way galaxy. That sucker is 10 trillion cubic light years of volume. And a light year is 5.8 trillion miles. Therefore, every cubic light year is 2.03 x 1038 cubic miles. This means that the volume of the galaxy is 2.03 x 1051 cubic miles, which looks like 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 mi3. That is the volume of the cylinder that is our galaxy. (thanks to /u/jackfg, /u/stjuuv, /u/hazie, /u/Wianie, and everyone else who pointed out my earlier erroneous calculation!)
TRAVEL
Okay, you admit, the Milky Way galaxy is unfathomably huge. And, to top it off, it's only one of hundreds of billions of galaxies. BUT, as you correctly would point out, most of the "volume" we calculated previously is empty space, so you don't really need to search empty space for other lifeforms, you just need to look at stars and planets. Great point, but it gets you nowhere. Why? Well...
Even thought we've cut down our search to just the stars, we still have the astronomical problem of actually getting to them. Traveling from the Earth to the Moon takes about 1.2 seconds for light. You can see it in a neat little .gif right here. So how long did it take our astronauts in a rocket-fueled spaceship? It took the Apollo missions about 3 days and 4 hours to get there. So a trip that takes light about 1.2 seconds would take a rocket-propelled ship about 3.16 days, give or take. It takes light 8 minutes to get to the Sun. It takes light 4.3 years to get to the nearest star. Now just stop and imagine how long that trip to the nearest star would take going at the speed it took us to get to the Moon. A dozen generations of human beings would live and die in that amount of time. The greatest technology we have and all of Earth's resources could not get these hypothetical astronauts even out of our Solar System. (And in doing so, the radiation would fry them like bacon, micro-meteorites would turn them to swiss-cheese, and so on).
So, our hypothetical aliens are not traveling on rockets. They simply can't be. The distances are enormous, the dangers unfathomable, and they don't have infinite time to be getting this mission done. Remember when I said that galaxy is 100,000+ light years across? Imagine traveling that in something that takes generations to go 4.3 light years. There quite literally has not been enough time since the Big Bang for such a flight to be completed. So, clearly, anything making these journeys would need a method of travel that simply doesn't exist. We can posit anything from solar sails that accelerate a craft up to 99% the speed of light, or anything else that allows travelers to accelerate up to relativistic speeds in between star systems. The problem, however, is that acceleration/deceleration (as well as travel between these stars, maneuvering while in flight, and so forth) still takes years and years and years and years. And that's not including actually searching these star systems for any kind of life once you get there. You see, once you decelerate this craft within a star system, you still have to mosey your @#$ up to every single planet and poke around for life. You might think you could just look at each one, but it's not even possible for a telescope to be built that can see a house on Earth from the Moon, so good luck finding life when you're on the other side of the solar system (and that's if the planet's even in view when your spaceship arrives). And how, exactly, are you going to poke around from planet to planet? What will you do to replenish the ship's resources? You certainly aren't going to be carrying water and food to last until the end of time, and without the infinite energy of the Sun beating over your head, you're going to have a tough time replenishing and storing energy to be doing this mission even after you get as far as Saturn, where the Sun becomes significantly smaller in the "sky". So the logistics of getting from one star to the other are huge, unmanageable, a complete mess for propulsion systems of any kind. Everything Earth has could be pored into the mission and we wouldn't get out of the Oort Cloud. And even if we did, then what? Cross your fingers and hope you can replenish supplies in the nearest star? How are you going to keep going after that? How suicidal is this mission? And that's just to the nearest star. What happens if the ship needs repairs? How many of these missions can you send out? If you only send out one, you're looking at taking eons just to search 1% of our galaxy, but the resources to send out a fleet of these ships doesn't exist. And how will you even know they succeeded? Any communication they send back will take half a decade to get here because those transmissions move at light speed, and that's IF they manage to point their transmitter in the right direction so that we can even hear them. It would take us decades to even realize we'd need to send a second ship if the first one failed.
Now remember how I said that the volume of the Milky Way wasn't relevant since you're just looking for stars and planets, not combing all of empty space? That wasn't 100% accurate, because now you're starting to realize that you actually have to traverse all of that empty space. To get from star to star requires crossing those unparalleled voids. That whatever-the-@#$!%&!-however-huge quadra-trillio-billions of miles is suddenly looking a bit more massive again. And keep in mind, all of these deadly, insurmountable problems I've laid bare are just getting to the nearest star from Earth. And there are a lot of stars in the Milky Way, as we will shortly see.
EDIT TO INCLUDE DEATH: It's also worth noting that when traveling at relativistic speeds you are going to have an awful time maneuvering this ship. So what do you do when a rock the size of a fist is headed right for your vessel? You die, that's what, because you are not getting out of its way. And that's if you see it, but you most likely would never know. Micrometeors and space dust smaller than your pinkie-nail would shred your ship to absolute pieces. Space is not empty, it is full of small little things, and a ship with a propulsion system would slam into all of them on its journey. I cannot find the source, but a paper I read years ago proposed the smallest "shield" needed to safely do this on one trip would be miles thick of metal all around a ship, and that's only if the ship was as big as a house. Insanity. Propulsion systems will not work for this voyage if they're going that fast.
THE POINT BEING: So clearly, at this point, we have to resort to magic. That's right, no-kidding magic. We're talking about Faster-than-Light travel, because anything else is utterly doomed. And honestly, there isn't much to say on FTL travel, because it's pure speculative magic. It's so crazy that in accomplishing it you create time-travel, time paradoxes, and you break all of special relativity into nice tiny chaotic pieces. But, as this is hypothetical, I'm going to grant you faster than light travel. No explanation, we'll just use MAGIC and be done with it, but if you're curious, here's some reading on the matter.
Finally, we are going to keep all of this travel within the Milky Way galaxy. Why? Well, we're staying confined to just the Milky Way because, quite frankly, it's already an absurd scenario without magnifying all the problems by a magnitude of 100+ billion more galaxies. As stated earlier, there are hundreds of billions of galaxies (in fact, when Hubble looked out into a patch of sky smaller than your pinky nail, it saw 10,000 galaxies, but there are untold-numbers of galaxies too far away to see, so that number is the minimum in just that patch of sky. There's a lot of galaxies in the universe).
SO, to recap: our hypothetical aliens are from the Milky Way, they are searching in the Milky Way, and they can travel faster than light. PROBLEM SOLVED, right? Now our aliens will inevitably find Earth and humans, right...? Yeah, about that... (CONTINUED)
perma-linksave
[–]17thknight 1633 points 4 days ago*
STARS AND PLANETS
Okay, so I've granted you not only that we aren't searching all of the massive volume of the Milky Way (just the stars), I'm now granting you faster-than-light travel (with no explanation or justification, but that's how we have to play this game). But I still haven't even brought out the big guns, because the biggest and most important question of all hasn't been addressed: How many stars and planets are the aliens actually looking through, just in the Milky Way galaxy? Well....
There are anywhere from 100 billion - 400 billion stars in just the Milky Way galaxy. Determining this number involves calculations of mass, volume, gravitational attraction, observation, and more. This is why there is such a disparity between the high and low estimates. We'll go with a number of 200 billion stars in the Milky Way for our purposes, simply because it's somewhat in between 100 billion and 400 billion but is still conservative in its estimation. So our hypothetical aliens have to "only" search 200 billion stars for life.
Now we're saying the aliens have faster than light travel. Let's, in fact, say that the amount of time it takes them to travel from one star to the other is a piddly 1 day. So 1 day to travel from 1 star to the next.
Yet, we still haven't addressed an important point: How many planets are they searching through? Well, it is unknown how many planets there are in the galaxy. This Image shows about how far out humans have been able to find planets from Earth. Not very far, to say the least. The primary means of finding planets from Earth is by viewing the motions of a star and how it is perturbed by the gravity of its orbiting planets. We call these planets Exoplanets. Now, what's really fascinating is that scientists have found exoplanets even around stars that should not have them, such as pulsars.
So our aliens have their work cut out for them, because it looks like they more or less have to search every star for planets. And then search every planet for life. So, again HOW MANY PLANETS? Well, we have to be hypothetical, but let's assume an average of 4-5 planets per star. Some stars have none, some have lots, and so on. That is about 800 billion - 1 trillion planets that must be investigated. We gave our aliens 1 day to travel to a star, let's give them 1 day per planet to get to that planet and do a thorough search for life.
Now why can't the aliens just narrow this number down and not look at some planets and some stars? Because they, like us, can't know the nature of all life in the universe. They would have to look everywhere, and they would have to look closely.
Summary: So we've given our aliens just under 1 week per solar system to accurately search for life in it, give or take, and that includes travel time. We've had to do this, remember, by essentially giving them magic powers, but why not, this is hypothetical. This would mean, just to search the Milky Way for life (by searching every star) and just to do it one time, would take them approximately 3 BILLION years, give or take. That is 1/5 the age of the universe. That is almost the age of the planet Earth itself. If the aliens had flown through our solar system before there was life, they wouldn't be back until the Sun had turned into a Red Giant and engulfed our planet in flames. Anything short of millions of space-ships, with magical powers, magically searching planets in a matter of a day for life, would simply be doomed.
Oh, but wait, maybe they can narrow it down by finding us with our "radio transmissions", right? They're watching Hitler on their tvs so they know where to find us! Yeah, well...
ON VIEWING EARTH AND RADIO TRANSMISSIONS
Regardless of whether or not our magical aliens have magical faster-than-light travel, there is one thing that does not travel faster than light, and that thing is.... light. So how far out have the transmissions from Earth managed to get since we started broadcasting? About this far. So good luck, aliens, because you're going to need it. This is, of course, assuming the transmissions even get that far, because recent studies have shown that after a couple tiny light years those transmissions turn into noise and are indistinguishable from the background noise of the universe. In other words, they become a grain of sand on an infinite beach. No alien is going to find our tv/radio transmissions, possibly not even on the nearest star to Earth.
So what if they have super-duper telescopes? Well, the size it would take for a telescope to view the flag on the Moon just from Earth would need to be 650 feet in diameter. And that's if you knew exactly what you were looking for, and where, and were essentially on top of the thing. Seeing details of any planet like Earth from any distance outside the solar system is 100% impossible. Seeing details once inside the solar system would take massive telescopes, and even then you'd need to know where the planets are to look at, you'd need to know what you were looking for, and that's assuming the aliens you're looking for on those planets are just strolling around on the surface. After all, most of Earth is ocean and intelligent life could have easily evolved there and not on land. And what about underground? You need to study these worlds pretty carefully (though, granted, Earth has us just right up on the surface making it easier once you are actually staring right at the planet).
TIME
There is one final nail in this coffin and that is one of time. Human beings have only existed on this planet for the past few tens of thousands of years. We've only had civilization for 10,000 years. In other words, if the entire history of the Earth were represented as a 24 hour clock, humans have existed for a grand total of 1.92 seconds out of that 24 hour clock. The point is that this would mean an alien would not only need to find Earth within the entire unfathomable galaxy, they would need to find it within a specific time-frame. It's not as though we'll be here for billions of years while they search, and if they are even a fraction too early, we won't exist yet.
Think of it this way. If it "only" took the aliens 100 million years to comb the entire galaxy for life on Earth, they would have .0001% of that amount of time as a window in which they could find humans at all. To find human civilization is .00001% of that time. To find us as we are now is an even smaller fraction. In fact, the dinosaurs went extinct 60,000,000 years ago, so even if they make a return trip, and if they were last here when the dinosaurs went extinct, they won't be due back for 40 million+ years. And that's if we give them ultra-super-duper magical powers so they can scan the whole galaxy in "just" 100 million years.
So our aliens are not only finding our invisible planet in a crazy-huge galaxy, they are finding it in a VERY specific and narrow amount of time. Outside of that, they'd be far more likely to find our planet as a frozen wasteland, a molten slag-ball from pole to pole, or just find dinosaurs. Again, IF they found it at all, ever, which doesn't seem terribly likely in the first place.
SUMMARY
So, as discussed:
It is impossible for aliens to directly view Earth, the planet, and certainly not details of it from outside the solar system.
It is impossible for them to pick up transmissions from Earth even at our nearest star.
Therefore they have to actually go solar system to solar system in order to hunt down life, even intelligent life.
The distances they must travel are enormous.
The number of stars they have to search is enormous.
The window they have to find us in is extremely small, so that even if they made a return trip it would be long after we are extinct.
Combining these amounts of time needed, the amount of space to be searched, and the TINY fractional window they have to accomplish this in, we are looking at something that is an impossibility compounded by an impossibility.
And that's not even getting into the fact that we're positing the aliens have existed for this long. How many alien intelligences are there in our galaxy? What if there's only one that ever pops up in any galaxy? What if there have been 1,000 others in the Milky Way but they're already all extinct? What if they don't exist yet? These are utterly unanswerable, which is why I don't go much into what the aliens are or how many there might be, but it does provide further layers upon layers upon layers of problems. The mess that one need sift through to even begin to hope for aliens bumbling into Earth and start probing us is enormous, unfathomable, immeasurable.
So, I hope you can now see why Roswell is pure crap. It's a roundabout way of getting there, but I can say with absolute certainty two things:
Given the massive size of the universe and the time it has existed, it is 100% certain that alien intelligence exists (or has existed) somewhere else in the universe.
It is 100% guaranteed they have never, and will never, find us on this planet.
EDIT: Some people balked at my 100%. To me, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999...% is 100%.
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Koiape
- captain of 50
- Posts: 61
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
I find it highly unlikely that God would allow demons to go so far as to impersonate aliens...it would be foolish of ANY man to deny what all his 5 senses tell him if he looks up in the sky and sees an UFO flying around in light speed around and/or abducts him for supposed experiments.
If aliens are indeed demons....what is taking them so long to rule over us or at the very least deceive us fully? Why didn't they use their fake alien ship in the early 1800's (where UFO sightings were first reported) where we were still in a primitive state without internet, functioning worldwide electricity, or planes.
Think about it for a second, what would you think if an alien ship landed on your doorstep and an alien being stepped out and greeted you with "We come in peace..." Or "Hello, good sir, my name is Xanadu and I am from the planet Exiliar IV."
Would it be fair for God to EXPECT the average christian to look at that alien and say:
"Begone demon! For I know that you are not an alien but a demon for I have studied extensively about the various possible theories of demonic conspiracies and of their evil plan to rule the world and enslave our morally corrupt and imperfect souls through extremely over-complicated and unnecessarily drawn out evil plot!!"
This theory is fascinating but when you ask the "Why?" It doesn't add up.
If aliens are indeed demons....what is taking them so long to rule over us or at the very least deceive us fully? Why didn't they use their fake alien ship in the early 1800's (where UFO sightings were first reported) where we were still in a primitive state without internet, functioning worldwide electricity, or planes.
Think about it for a second, what would you think if an alien ship landed on your doorstep and an alien being stepped out and greeted you with "We come in peace..." Or "Hello, good sir, my name is Xanadu and I am from the planet Exiliar IV."
Would it be fair for God to EXPECT the average christian to look at that alien and say:
"Begone demon! For I know that you are not an alien but a demon for I have studied extensively about the various possible theories of demonic conspiracies and of their evil plan to rule the world and enslave our morally corrupt and imperfect souls through extremely over-complicated and unnecessarily drawn out evil plot!!"
This theory is fascinating but when you ask the "Why?" It doesn't add up.
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davedan
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3064
- Location: Augusta, GA
- Contact:
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 130)
1. There are other inhabited worlds.
2. No extraterrestials visit this Earth.
3. alien and ufos encounters are demonic manifestations
4. ufo sightings could involve sighting of advanced globalist technology
5. alien abduction could also be military human experimentation, hypnosis and mind control
6. this does not exclude the people of the city of Zion (Enoch's people) who may reside on another planet but still belong to this Earth.
1. There are other inhabited worlds.
2. No extraterrestials visit this Earth.
3. alien and ufos encounters are demonic manifestations
4. ufo sightings could involve sighting of advanced globalist technology
5. alien abduction could also be military human experimentation, hypnosis and mind control
6. this does not exclude the people of the city of Zion (Enoch's people) who may reside on another planet but still belong to this Earth.
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shestalou
- captain of 100
- Posts: 379
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
If they cannot deceive us by impersonating an angel of light, why not as an alien? :ymdevil:
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Koiape
- captain of 50
- Posts: 61
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
shestalou wrote:If they cannot deceive us by impersonating an angel of light, why not as an alien? :ymdevil:
shestalou wrote:If they cannot deceive us by impersonating an angel of light, why not as an alien? :ymdevil:
That's the problem...why didn't these fake aliens take over back in the 1800's when they were first officially spotted? What are they waiting for? It will be so much easier to convince 1800's people that these aliens are superior beings and be worshiped as gods. Imagine what would have happened to the LDS Doctrine if aliens interfered. Imagine how much weaker, smaller, insignificant the church would have been if demons impersonated aliens at this time...the masses wouldn't even look twice at the Bible, The Qur'an and we can just forget about the little new controversial religious book, the Book of Mormon. Which none of these books mention anything alien or alien-esque, fly spaceships, intelligent life outside of Earth.
Demons must not be very smart if they waited until we had the Internet, nuclear bomb, electronical technological advances and a general increase of knowledge about life to start showing up now. And here we often contribute Lucifer as the master of deceit, father of lies, and bringer of sin....he could have easily turned this world into helpless little slaves if he would have went this route.
I honestly really like this conspiracy as it fascinates me more than these other conspiracies floating around but it just doesn't make sense in the end. If the motive is to deceive...well...
It wouldn't make sense for God, our loving Father in Heaven, to expect anyone to see an actual alien spaceship or being and for us to sit there and determine that they are demons rather extraterrestrial beings from another planet with superior knowledge and technology. Every prophet from Adam to Thomas S. Monson (save for Brigham Young...and well...the less said about that the better as it begs the human opinion vs false prophecy debate) have never addressed UFO's, extraterrestrial, and/or alien like conspiracies.
I think the idea of intelligent aliens actually living that are not "made out of God's image" threatens everything we hold - at the very least - on a religious level and I think many Christians, Muslims, and everybody in between is looking for an explanation that doesn't contradict their beliefs or what their religious book states as fact. Although Mormons are known for saying that this is one true church/religion...Muslims believe the same thing about their religion/synagogue. Bible only Christians believe the Bible is the only Word of God anything else is of the devil.
It's OK for humans to debate amongst each other about things that most likely won't be actually proven in their lifetime but when an "outside the box" interferes and threatens our facts, everybody and their mama unites to universally dismiss it.
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SmallFarm
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4643
- Location: Holbrook, Az
- Contact:
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
It's important to remember that Satan and his angels don't have the gift of agency like we do and operate within strict parameters set by our Father. ;)koiape wrote:That's the problem...why didn't these fake aliens take over back in the 1800's when they were first officially spotted? What are they waiting for? It will be so much easier to convince 1800's people that these aliens are superior beings and be worshiped as gods. Imagine what would have happened to the LDS Doctrine if aliens interfered. Imagine how much weaker, smaller, insignificant the church would have been if demons impersonated aliens at this time...the masses wouldn't even look twice at the Bible, The Qur'an and we can just forget about the little new controversial religious book, the Book of Mormon. Which none of these books mention anything alien or alien-esque, fly spaceships, intelligent life outside of Earth.
Demons must not be very smart if they waited until we had the Internet, nuclear bomb, electronical technological advances and a general increase of knowledge about life to start showing up now. And here we often contribute Lucifer as the master of deceit, father of lies, and bringer of sin....he could have easily turned this world into helpless little slaves if he would have went this route.
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shestalou
- captain of 100
- Posts: 379
Re: Are Space Aliens actually Demons?
They also have plenty of time on their hands to lie in wait to decieve us, most people dont think aliens exist or the devil for that matter!SmallFarm wrote:It's important to remember that Satan and his angels don't have the gift of agency like we do and operate within strict parameters set by our Father. ;)koiape wrote:That's the problem...why didn't these fake aliens take over back in the 1800's when they were first officially spotted? What are they waiting for? It will be so much easier to convince 1800's people that these aliens are superior beings and be worshiped as gods. Imagine what would have happened to the LDS Doctrine if aliens interfered. Imagine how much weaker, smaller, insignificant the church would have been if demons impersonated aliens at this time...the masses wouldn't even look twice at the Bible, The Qur'an and we can just forget about the little new controversial religious book, the Book of Mormon. Which none of these books mention anything alien or alien-esque, fly spaceships, intelligent life outside of Earth.
Demons must not be very smart if they waited until we had the Internet, nuclear bomb, electronical technological advances and a general increase of knowledge about life to start showing up now. And here we often contribute Lucifer as the master of deceit, father of lies, and bringer of sin....he could have easily turned this world into helpless little slaves if he would have went this route.
