LDS Freedom Forum

I saw an ad on KSL TV (local Salt lake station) recently by the church promoting the new City Creek Plaza as if it were owned and operated by some wealthy billionaire or Fortune 500 company (they were talking up all the fancy apparel stores, fine dining and luxury items that will be available for shoppers). I couldn't help but wonder how this would look to members in other states or even countries if they saw the ad or the plaza complex itself? How many stories have we all heard from the pulpit or read in the Ensign about some family in South Africa that saved up for six months just to be able to walk several miles to their temple? Imagine that same family seeing this commercial on TV or the plaza complex itself knowing that $3 billion in church funds was used to construct it - how would that carry over? I don't know why things like this bother me, but it sure looks bad and probably comes across to others as the church being obsessed with worldly image and opinion of itself. And what really bugs me the most is when I hear a church official publicly state that no church tithes were used to build the complex when in fact, the monies used for the investment funds that supposedly generated the $3 billion to construct it originated from tithing donations. Are the Lord and our Savior up there encouraging our church officials to construct things like this while many members in Utah, the United States and other nations are unemployed, hungry, have no health insurance and/or rely on government assistance to survive?




Makes me think of this building on the right...

Taubman also operates Arizona Mills mall....which has since turned into a ghetto fabulous shopping experience.

Do we know for certain that tithing money was used for this?

uglypitbull wrote: Do we know for certain that tithing money was used for this?

We know for certain that it was not used.

It wasn't tithing money; it was interest earned on tithing as well as other "investment earnings" the church has, which seed money (as I understand it) came from interest earned on tithing. But it is impossible to know for 100% sure (barring a leak from the c.o.b.) because the church hides the details of it's income and spending.

shadow wrote:

uglypitbull wrote: Do we know for certain that tithing money was used for this?

We know for certain that it was not used.

Where did the money for the investments that generated said $3 billion come from?

I just hope someday we'll see the purpose and the righteous choice behind it. I agree, it looks bad... but who knows, we've been told we're in the storm. Maybe at some point the storm will become so raging that this construction becomes a place of gathering and safety. But of course, that's just speculation. I can see why it bugs you.

-- Geoff

Col. Flagg wrote:

shadow wrote:

uglypitbull wrote: Do we know for certain that tithing money was used for this?

We know for certain that it was not used.

Where did the money for the investments that generated said $3 billion come from?

Back in the day when I did home health care I had a patient who told me his will stipulated that 1 million go to the church. This wasn't tithing or a fast offering. I'm sure a lot of people have included teh church in their wills. Heck, even my Grandma has.

Also, back in the 60's my mom used to work for the real-estate arm of the church. She told me people would donate land and buildings to the church all the time. In fact she was responsible for collecting rent (or making sure rent was paid) on some of the properties in the area. Once you get a little money saved up you buy other properties like Warm Springs in Nevada. The church sells millions of dollars worth of water to Las Vegas from that little investment http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/ ... 26264.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They then take that money and put it in the pot and reinvest it etc. etc. and then they have billions to invest in the properties surrounding church headquarters. None from tithing. Actually, I'm not sure exactly how the church manages their money or how they invest/reinvest it, it's really none of my business, but I highly doubt they use tithing funds for these expenditures/investments. There simply is no need to!

Shadow, thank you for posting that.

Where did the money for the investments that generated said $3 billion come from?[/quote]
Back in the day when I did home health care I had a patient who told me his will stipulated that 1 million go to the church. This wasn't tithing or a fast offering. I'm sure a lot of people have included teh church in their wills. Heck, even my Grandma has.

Also, back in the 60's my mom used to work for the real-estate arm of the church. She told me people would donate land and buildings to the church all the time. In fact she was responsible for collecting rent (or making sure rent was paid) on some of the properties in the area. Once you get a little money saved up you buy other properties like Warm Springs in Nevada. The church sells millions of dollars worth of water to Las Vegas from that little investment http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/ ... 26264.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They then take that money and put it in the pot and reinvest it etc. etc. and then they have billions to invest in the properties surrounding church headquarters. None from tithing. Actually, I'm not sure exactly how the church manages their money or how they invest/reinvest it, it's really none of my business, but I highly doubt they use tithing funds for these expenditures/investments. There simply is no need to![/quote]

:ymapplause: :ymapplause:

I would point out that this project provided employment and all of its benefits to a lardge number of workers all the time getting something useful built in the height of the ression.

Happily, once I have paid it, tithing funds are outside of my stewardship! (as if there aren't enough things within my stewardship to worry about.)

I'd also remind that we will be judged by the same judgement that we use...are those being critical of the GAs willing to examine their use of all the talents and possessions with which the Lord has blessed them with the same level of criticism? #-o

Regardless of how the money was acquired to spend the 3-4 billion dollars on a shopping mall, this is the one thing that has bothered me about the church. The answer that I have heard over and over again from Bishop Burton is that it was needed to protect the integrity of down town Salt Lake City. That may be so but why spend the cash on a shopping mall? Why not say put in a lovely garden space? Shopping malls are poor investments.

I think what Col. is getting at is that this was a huge amount, an unbelievable amount of cash to lay out for shopping malls and luxury stores and apartments that the vast majority of saints can't afford. Is this really what the Lord inspired the prophets to do with the monies of the church? When the Lord told the young man to go and sell all you have and give it to the poor and come follow me, did he tell some one else go and take all the interest earned and build a shopping mall and skyscrapers for wealthy people? If you spent $50 million on a temple you could build 80 of them. Since 1985 the Church has given about $1.2 billion in humanitarian aid and $4 billion to a shopping mall. It makes no sense to me. I love the Brethren, I sincerely do, and I trust them but I do not understand this. This is again the one thing I can't figure out. Was down town SLC really so bad that a $4 billion investment was needed? I just trust that it is for the best and the church won't be held accountable for grinding on the faces of the poor or encouraging the material objectification of false gods. The one good thought is that they basically built a city in a short amount of time. Maybe this will come to some good practice to build the New Jerusalem. I just hope we will be allowed to build it.

gkearney wrote:I would point out that this project provided employment and all of its benefits to a lardge number of workers all the time getting something useful built in the height of the ression.

This is true and perhaps Utah is less scathed than the rest of the US because of it. But why just Utah? Can you imagine the good even a billion dollars invested in say a really run down city like Detroit would do for the populace there? Are luxury shopping malls ever useful?

LateOutOfBed wrote:I just hope someday we'll see the purpose and the righteous choice behind it. I agree, it looks bad... but who knows, we've been told we're in the storm. Maybe at some point the storm will become so raging that this construction becomes a place of gathering and safety. But of course, that's just speculation. I can see why it bugs you.

-- Geoff

clutching. at.straws

i can't wait for all you Americans to gather there for safety in any coming global apocalypse

i can only assume us non-USA members (whose tithing goes to the USA and contributed to that pool) get a plane ticket in the mail.

Or, equally logically,we'llget our own mall built here for us

Oh dang snap, i forgot. we have temples for refuge. and chapels

you even have a tabernacle for refuge



Col,let it go. you know,we know. its a bad investment decisions that will bite us on the backside but its not the first wont be the last

the church will generate revenue through lease payments but they wont even come close to covering the cost and bond yields would be better.some committee just thought it would be a better investment that the share market or bonds, and would deliver consistent incomestreams. but again,its still a dud.

buildings are good to own because you can depreciate items against income, but we dont pay tax. it might yield 3 or 4%

bad investments

its just ironic that a $3b mall is a spacious building selling fine linen and apparel

Eddie Lyle wrote:

gkearney wrote:I would point out that this project provided employment and all of its benefits to a lardge number of workers all the time getting something useful built in the height of the ression.

This is true and perhaps Utah is less scathed than the rest of the US because of it. But why just Utah? Can you imagine the good even a billion dollars invested in say a really run down city like Detroit would do for the populace there? Are luxury shopping malls ever useful?

tell me more about who got the contracts I guess

AussieOi wrote:

LateOutOfBed wrote:I just hope someday we'll see the purpose and the righteous choice behind it. I agree, it looks bad... but who knows, we've been told we're in the storm. Maybe at some point the storm will become so raging that this construction becomes a place of gathering and safety. But of course, that's just speculation. I can see why it bugs you.

-- Geoff

clutching. at.straws

i can't wait for all you Americans to gather there for safety in any coming global apocalypse

i can only assume us non-USA members (whose tithing goes to the USA and contributed to that pool) get a plane ticket in the mail.

Or, equally logically,we'llget our own mall built here for us

Oh dang snap, i forgot. we have temples for refuge. and chapels

you even have a tabernacle for refuge

No need to be a jerk about it Aussie... or is that the only way you know how to operate? If so, I feel sorry for you. I'm not saying I agree with it at all... I'm just saying I don't know why they would make the call, and maybe there is a reason behind it. Straws or not, it doesn't matter. All information will be sorted out in the end and we'll know the truth of all things. Obviously everyone in the church is fallible, maybe this is one of those issues. I need not judge anyone for it is really all I'm getting at.

-- Geoff

AussieOi wrote:tell me more about who got the contracts I guess

From what I found out after a quick google search... Utah-based Okland Construction, Jacobsen Construction and Big-D Construction were the general contractors. McCullough Engineering & Contracting performed the renovation of the Deseret (First Security) Building. Also Morrison Hershfield was involved... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_Hershfield" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't know anything about them except it looks like they have built temples, the conference center and other big projects. http://www.jacobsenconstruction.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.okland-const.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://mcculloughcontracting.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.morrisonhershfield.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.big-d.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will the mall have a Victoria's Secret there? That will certainly rattle the cages of some of the fuddie duddies that think LDS women should never greet their husbands in some skimpy lingerie on a date night.

Then again, just to be fair and "open minded" I am sure some Salt Lake men shop for lingerie for their husbands too. )

I dont think ill choose to murmur on this one, better that I stay out of it. :-s

Fiannan wrote:Will the mall have a Victoria's Secret there? That will certainly rattle the cages of some of the fuddie duddies that think LDS women should never greet their husbands in some skimpy lingerie on a date night.

Then again, just to be fair and "open minded" I am sure some Salt Lake men shop for lingerie for their husbands too. )

Bawaahahahahaha its Salt lake not San Fran !!!! =)) =)) =)) That makes me think , hunnie could you stop off at V.S. on the way home!! Thanks bebe!!!! AURITE !

LateOutOfBed wrote:

AussieOi wrote:

LateOutOfBed wrote:I just hope someday we'll see the purpose and the righteous choice behind it. I agree, it looks bad... but who knows, we've been told we're in the storm. Maybe at some point the storm will become so raging that this construction becomes a place of gathering and safety. But of course, that's just speculation. I can see why it bugs you.

-- Geoff

clutching. at.straws

i can't wait for all you Americans to gather there for safety in any coming global apocalypse

i can only assume us non-USA members (whose tithing goes to the USA and contributed to that pool) get a plane ticket in the mail.

Or, equally logically,we'llget our own mall built here for us

Oh dang snap, i forgot. we have temples for refuge. and chapels

you even have a tabernacle for refuge

No need to be a jerk about it Aussie... or is that the only way you know how to operate? If so, I feel sorry for you. I'm not saying I agree with it at all... I'm just saying I don't know why they would make the call, and maybe there is a reason behind it. Straws or not, it doesn't matter. All information will be sorted out in the end and we'll know the truth of all things. Obviously everyone in the church is fallible, maybe this is one of those issues. I need not judge anyone for it is really all I'm getting at.

-- Geoff

point taken

but seriously, this isn't the Boys Scouts
you seriously postulated the idea that we as Israel with our temples and that might retreat to a mall for safety?

hmm, having said that the film"Dawn of the Dead"_is_one of my favourites

Article in Deseret News yesterday; in part:

SALT LAKE CITY — The Mormon church is attempting to remake downtown Salt Lake City by opening the shopping mall portion of a $2 billion mixed-use space that spans two city blocks.

Church partner and retail operator Taubman Centers Inc. expect 50,000 visitors on Thursday, when City Creek Center's nearly 90 stores open.

City Creek Center has outdoor walkways, retractable glass roofs and a winding creek. Waterfalls, fountains and a trout pond are part of the village-like development, which includes condominiums and is joined by a pedestrian bridge over Main Street.

The residential towers were built by City Creek Reserve Inc., a for-profit firm owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church is a multibillion-dollar organization with tentacles in business and real estate.

The church paid for City Creek Center with cash and says no member tithing was used. For the most part, it will be like other shopping malls, except that the stores close on Sundays — the church wanted the day of peace for its nearby Temple Square.

It will be operated like Taubman Centers' other upscale malls in Los Angeles and Denver, said Robert Taubman, chairman, president and CEO of the Bloomfield Hills, Mich.-based company. Two of the restaurants at the Salt Lake City mall will serve liquor, but there are no bars. Its anchors include Macy's, Nordstrom, Tiffany & Co. and the Swedish fashion chain H&M.

"Come come ye saints!
No toil nor labor fear!
To the mall! To the mall!
How can we think
to earn a great reward?
On our Visa, or Mastercard?
Raise your credit score!
New credit take!
Goldman Sachs will
never us forsake!
And when we"re done,
this is the tale we'll tell,
'Here in Zion, ALL IS WELL!'"

The only problem I have with the condos is that I am uneasy with the symbolism of selling luxury condos that were explicitly designed to be above and looking down upon the temple. And those units sold first. It bugs me enough, but I don't know if I have any justification to be bothered.

AussieOi wrote:
point taken

but seriously, this isn't the Boys Scouts
you seriously postulated the idea that we as Israel with our temples and that might retreat to a mall for safety?

hmm, having said that the film"Dawn of the Dead"_is_one of my favourites

And you're postulating we're going to "camp out" and sleep in the temples? Plus, I was thinking more of a gathering place that would provide shelter. Can't squish that many people into a temple afterall. And I'm not saying it would be for safety... just for gathering. Then again, like I said, I don't really know or care right now. I have more important things in my life to worry about than this structure. For I am far from perfect and need to worry about turning myself more into a character similar to Christ.

-- Geoff