Church's new City Creek Mall Plaza Complex commercial on TV

[clarkkent14]

Hey now superman, don't you go misconstruing the words of the Lord.

How so?

[laronius]

No Col Flagg, I will not let you skirt the question that easily. These are 15 men who profess to all the world that they lead the church by revelation. And they just spent $5 billion, as you put it, on a project, which is no small sum for anyone but the governement. So either they made this decision without drawing upon the powers of heaven for guidance which would make this a completely incompetent decision of historical proportions or, simply, they did and the Lord said yes. I cannot see any other way around it. Inspired or incompetent?

[Juliette]

Is the church a church first... or a business? The corporate aspect of the church seems to be taking over the religious part - that's the concern here.

The church is whatever you make of it Col.! If you want it to assist your "religious" needs then it's there for you. If you want it to be worldly then it's there for you! You'll find what you're looking for.
If during GC in 2 weeks all the talks are focused on the shopping mall and the speakers encourage people to go to deseret first credit union to get a visa card then go blow it all at city creek then you may be correct, the business arm has taken over the religious part. But if that doesn't happen I would encourage you to reevaluate your "concern".

I agree 100% Shadow. It really is difficult for me to understand the constant "questioning" here by some on the forum. You know, you can "thinK' anything you want, but you don't need to voice your thoughts about everything on the internet. Those concerns need to be taken to the Lord in prayer...and when I say that, I don't mean asking the Lord if the brethren are right...pleading with the Lord to be on the same page with them.

I agree with Shadow also Natasha. I do not question the wisdom of our Prophet and GA's. No murmering!

[Eddie Lyle]

I for one am not on the road to apostasy, nor am I writing to say that the Church Leaders are incompetent, ignorant or uninspired. I also know that they are truly prophets seers and revelators. My question is just why? Salt Lake just had renovations a decade ago for the Olympics. This started planning in 2003 or 4 just 1-2 years after that. Was SLC so run down to invest that kind of money? Some of your responses (those who don't throw out pejoratives and question our sincerity, worthiness or spirituality) have been good. I like the idea that the Church took ownership of those blocks to preserve headquarters and temple square. I somewhat understand that. But why a project costing billions for something so shallow and apparently devoid of what is good.

Maybe it is my prejudice against malls. I admit freely I loathe the places. I remember 22 years ago going on a youth temple trip from my small coastal village to the nearest city with a temple. About 2 miles away is one of the state's biggest malls. Our youth leaders took us to it as a "treat" after the temple. I remember the youth being more excited about the 4 hours in the mall than the 2 hours in the temple. I dubbed that mall then and refer to it to this day as the Mecca of Human Decadence. The stark contrast between the spirit in the Lord's house compared to the mall was stark and left an indelible impression on me. It wasn't that the stores or their goods were or are evil (though that can be debatable). It was the spirit of the place, one of selfishness, greediness and lasciviousness. The last time I went to a mall it was at Christmas time 2 years ago. It had the same feeling as a casino I walked through one time for a work conference to get to the banquet room, full of unsmiling, seemingly unhappy people, spending money that they didn't have for things that wouldn't make them happy.

I know what makes me happy. It is keeping the commandments of the Lord. I feel no guilt for asking why. If I feel no guilt and I am not beyond feeling (which I assure you I am not) then I have broke no commandments in not sustaining the Brethren. I accept that I may never have an answer to my why that will satisfy me soon. I trust the Lord and his Servants enough that I know I am not a tare for asking a sincere question. The scriptures and the modern prophets are replete with warnings against materialism, seeking after riches, getting out of debt, only buying what you can afford, frugality, and building Zion( in it's varied meanings). When the Lord told Joseph to build the Nauvoo house it was a simple house. You can go there today and rent a cot for a few bucks ( http://www.cofchrist.org/js/riverside/rental.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). Even then, building the temple took precedence and it was abandoned. There is also church history in stores like ZCMI, various banks and other enterprises. I respect that. Most of those seemed to be started so that we wouldn't trade with gentiles that just forced us out of the country. It is simply the extravagance for a purpose the scriptures and prophets seem to be against that is confusing. At least they will be closed on Sunday.

[Mark]

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy.

=)) Really? Joseph Smith himself disagrees with that - he admonished church members to question and express alarm over decisions made within the ranks of the church that seemed to conflict with church doctrine and/or what was right - wonder why he said that?

Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Lord doesn't want a house of sheep who follow blindly - if so, why did he give us agency, freedom of speech and a brain? There is a fine line in supporting and sustaining the Lord's annointed and agreeing/disagreeing with their actions. One can support and sustain someone as a leader while disagreeing with them on something.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

Amen!!!

Col. Flagg, everything you just responded to was from the quote of Pres. Benson not me. I only wrote the first line of my original posting.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1978/03/we-s ... nse+benson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Classic. Am I going to see you and the family on conference Sunday holding up home made signs that you and the kids made during your FHE activity this Monday all pacing in front of the conference center and bullhorning with Aussie at your side calling the prophets to repentance for the church's wasteful spending habits my friend. =))

[Original_Intent]

... if this now $5 billion mall was inspired, then the Lord is going to have to apologize to a LOT of his servants in biblical/scriptural times that were punished for their lavishness and vanity and remove many scriptures condemning the love of money and his church desiring to appeal to the world.

This is where you and I part ways, Col...this goes beyond asking "WHY?" - this is openly declaring that this COULD NOT have been an inspired decision, (as clearly the Lord is NOT going to have to apologize to anyone, so you are declaring the other side of your if....then statement true. So much for no more evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. I think even the questioning outside of our stewardship is treading on thin ice, but you go well beyond that, you clearly and unequivocally cast judgement on the prophet and other leaders of the church. You are certainly knowledgeable about a good many things, but in others you are the fool who jumps in where angels fear to tread.

[HeirofNumenor]

In 1993 I was in San Diego for the open house and dedication of the temple. Some of the anti-Mormon pamphlets claimed that the Church had no business spending $25 million on the temple ( plus $7 million for the land and $16 million for the office building next door so the Church could secure rights to the parking garage and lots for temple patrons); rather that money should have gone to the poor instead of the temple.
The location, lot dimensions mandated a more expensive design than the planned 6 free-standing spires temple as in Boise, Dallas, and Chicago. While Pres. Hinckley toured another potential site in an average middle class area which allowed for a Boise style temple; he stated that the Holy Ghost rejected that site and confirmed the vastly more expensive La Jolla site. That site has much better access, and much higher visibility of the temple and for the Church- which goes to both PR and missionary work.

[HeirofNumenor]

Ps 750,000 toured the San Diego Temple open house - higher than any before or since

[jnjnelson]

I for one am not on the road to apostasy, nor am I writing to say that the Church Leaders are incompetent, ignorant or uninspired. I also know that they are truly prophets seers and revelators. My question is just why?

This is an excellent question; thank you very much for asking it. I found your comments very thought-provoking, and I will endeavor to provide my own answers to your questions.


I could think of dozens of reason why the leaders of the Church might use Church resources to purchase property new shopping center. One such reason is outline by the article found at http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/c ... y-facelift.

One of the first commandments given to Adam in the garden of Eden was to "replenish" and to "subdue" the earth. (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/1.28#27) Part of replenishing and subduing the earth necessarily includes using resources to improve the physical circumstances of ourselves and those around us (including, and especially, the poor and widows.) The best way to improve the physical prosperity of those who are less physically wealthy is to give them opportunities to enter into economic exchanges. A shopping center provides one such venue for economic exchanges. Specifically, it can provide more job opportunities for more people, thus helping more people get themselves out of poverty through exchanging their work for currency.

Was SLC so run down to invest that kind of money?

Does something need to be run down in order to decide to improve it? I don't think so. I don't consider my house to be run down, but I am constantly making improvements and renovations to my home. In my mind, such improvements coincide with the principle of eternal increase.

But why a project costing billions for something so shallow and apparently devoid of what is good.

What makes you think shopping centers or malls are devoid of what is good? Without economic exchanges, such as those available at centers of commerce like malls, there can be no physical prosperity, and we all become physically poor. If we were all meant to be poor, why would the Lord promise us so many times that we will "prosper in the land" if we keep His commandments. The Lord never discourages us from being or becoming rich, He only encourages us to refrain from setting our hearts upon riches. Malls neither cause nor encourage the love of money - they are merely a venue for economic exchanges. Those who love money will love money with or without shopping malls, and those who have an unhealthy focus on materialism will have that focus with or without shopping malls.

I feel no guilt for asking why. If I feel no guilt and I am not beyond feeling (which I assure you I am not) then I have broke no commandments in not sustaining the Brethren. I accept that I may never have an answer to my why that will satisfy me soon. I trust the Lord and his Servants enough that I know I am not a tare for asking a sincere question.

I'm glad you feel no guilt for asking why. I am completely confident that there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking why.


The criticism and discontent expressed in the introductory comment to this thread, however, is not something that I find spiritually healthy. In fact, I find that type of criticism of the Brethren as spiritually disconcerting as you have described finding shopping malls spiritually disconcerting.

It is simply the extravagance for a purpose the scriptures and prophets seem to be against that is confusing.

I am very interested to learn which scriptures and prophets seem to be against this type of extravagance. Care to elaborate?

[HeirofNumenor]

The Hoffman forgeries were purchased so as to have ownership of as many documents from the early days of the church as possible (reorganized church owns a lot more). The salamander was mentioned at the time as a possible folklore reference for spiritual events.
Pres. Hinkley stated that if they treated everything with suspicion (and cynicism) they couldn't function.
In the end, the Hoffman forgeries did NOT impact doctrine, but certainly affected testimonies of many, they thought God should have intervened to block the fraud, sale, and murders - yet God allows evil things to occur to both condemn the wicked and also try the faith of His people.
Many in the Church have failed this test and are now left the Church or on the verge of leaving.

[HeirofNumenor]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor, etc ALSO apply even more so to the American people and Western Christianity - in fact more so.
I find it odd that we become quick to seek out possible flaws in our apostolic leaders, instead of looking at our lives as indiduals.
Are our testimonies of our Lord, His Gospel, and His Church that weak and shaky?

[Glenn]

As far as City Creek is concerned, I'm just learning about some of the details. I believe the idea of beautifying downtown SLC and creating a buffer around Temple Square makes sense. Just the other night my wife and I went to a concert at Temple Square; I distinctly thought how vibrant and beautiful the downtown area had become over time (a good thing).

I’m also concerned that this may be a SLC manifestation of "Agenda21" (The globalist urban development and sustainability agenda). Apparently SLC is an agenda21 city. I saw something similar happen in Tulsa, but in that case they pillaged the taxpayers for 2+ billion dollars for their riverwalk projects. The real devil will be in the details of funding and control, but if the Church has decided to fund this project and have some control over downtown SLC -- and protect taxpayers in the process -- it could prove to be a brilliant move over time.....I understand that struggling LDS families may see this ritzy development as a misuse of tithing funds, but its hard to know for sure what it all means. My opinion is not yet formed on the matter. In the meantime please research Agenda21.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/42555

[reese]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor, etc ALSO apply even more so to the American people and Western Christianity - in fact more so.
I find it odd that we become quick to seek out possible flaws in our apostolic leaders, instead of looking at our lives as indiduals.
Are our testimonies of our Lord, His Gospel, and His Church that weak and shaky?

These scriptures are almost exclusively directed at our church. Who else claims to be Zion(the ones from Nephi) and who else is the holy church of God in the last days(the ones from Moroni)?

[Thomas]

I am just wondering when the late night cleaning asignments will come. Just like all the other church owned buildings in the downtown area, that we clean. That's a lot more work for those of us in the salt lake area. #:-s

[ATL Wake]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor,

Nephi and Mormon were not speaking to Babylon, their audience is the readers of the BOM. Let's be very clear, 2 Nephi 28 is directed to us. Mormon was speaking to us. If you miss that, you miss most of the BOM.

[Inspire]

Not sure this one is hanging on a building:

protect it.jpg (121.56 KiB) Viewed 1234 times

[Col. Flagg]

This is where you and I part ways, Col...this goes beyond asking "WHY?" - this is openly declaring that this COULD NOT have been an inspired decision, (as clearly the Lord is NOT going to have to apologize to anyone, so you are declaring the other side of your if....then statement true. So much for no more evil speaking of the Lord's anointed

O.I., you know me better than that. Have I unequivocally stated that this was definitely NOT an inspired undertaking? No, in fact, in a few previous posts of mine, you'll see where I've said 'if' on a few occasions, so please do not put words into my mouth. And evil speaking of the Lord's annointed? Please. =; Heaven forbid any of us should express concerns about how the church just used $5 billion for a luxurious, fanciful shopping mall for the more well-to-do. 8-| I am surprised at how quick you are to cast judgment on someone so quickly for expressing alarm and asking questions over something like this - you're better than that. And please... tell me I'm dead wrong for equating the construction of the complex with these scriptures...

Mormon 8:37 - For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Ezek. 34: 8 - As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock

1 Nephi. 13: 7-8 - And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots; and the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.”

2 Nephi. 28: 13 (9-16) - They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

[Col. Flagg]

Classic. Am I going to see you and the family on conference Sunday holding up home made signs that you and the kids made during your FHE activity this Monday all pacing in front of the conference center and bullhorning with Aussie at your side calling the prophets to repentance for the church's wasteful spending habits my friend. =))

Classic is right. Mark, all I am concerned about is that the church's corporate arm has taken over the religious aspect of it and for you and others to call me out because I am of the opinion that $5 billion could have probably been better spent helping accomplish the 4-fold mission of the church (especially helping the needy) is pretty revealing - guess you'd rather have $5 billion spent so that those who are more well-to-do can be wined, dined and showered with materialism and all manner of lavishness instead of helping the needy. The church just added 'helping the needy' to its 3-fold mission statement to make it 4-fold... I'm sure spending $5 billion for a great and spacious endeavor for wealthier shoppers is helping to reinforce that commitment. Save the patronization for the self-righteous, haughty and apostate.

[ATL Wake]

What was that darned principle of common consent again?

[jnjnelson]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor,

Nephi and Mormon were not speaking to Babylon, their audience is the readers of the BOM. Let's be very clear, 2 Nephi 28 is directed to us. Mormon was speaking to us. If you miss that, you miss most of the BOM.

Let's be even more clear and actually discuss the wording of the scriptures in question, shall we?

Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Nowhere in this passage does it condemn "fine sancuaries" or "fine clothing". What this passage condemns is robbing and persecuting the poor and being puffed up in pride. Someone who is puffed up in pride will find any convenient reason to be prideful; someone who robs the poor will find any avenue available to rob the poor.

This isn't to say that the Church of Jesus Christ is somehow immune or exempt from these prophecies. Pride is something each of should not allow to take root in our hearts.

For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

This passage is not condemnation of money, nor condemnation of substance, fine apparel, adorning of churches, etc. This passage is a condemnation of loving those things more than loving people who need our help. I might be able to find some fault in building up many of these fine buildings if it was demonstrated that the people who were building them were in fact suffering "the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by" without being noticed. However, the poor are not being neglected in any way. Must someone forgo material prosperity in order to help the poor? I reject any such sentiment. It is through material prosperity that it is possible to help the poor, as articulated by another Book of Mormon prophet:

And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Unless I am mistaken, part of any successful shopping mall include a large portion of clothing stores and places to purchase food ("to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry"). This shopping mall is merely a tool. The method in which it is used depends largely on the choices of those who shop there.

[AussieOi]

Col. Flagg says 3 billion, Reese says 4 billion and KSL reports it's 1.5 billion. We can't even get the numbers right!

Anyway, it's probably no surprise that I disagree with schitzo man Col. Flagg (from MASH) and Reese.
Here's how I see it-
One of the for-profit corps of the church spent a lot of money buying up land around the Temple and church headquarters and built some well constructed buildings to go there which they then leased out to a partner who then subleases to stores. The church then collects rent on those buildings to help recoup it's investment while the church waits for all hell to break loose. Once that happens and all the stores close (which they will!!) the church is left with a huge property it can use for it's own purposes which in the millennium would consist of redeeming the dead etc. I think it's genius and shows the foresight of our leaders regarding future events and just how near those events are. But that's my opinion! I don't see it as a shopping mall for long.

or they could have just ensured it was to be parklands for perpetuity

4pages in 1 day speaks volumes for what we all think- even those trying to find an angle to justify it

my guess is this is one of those spacious buildings that will burn with the rubble

FWIW this place only generates a return if its tenants make profit. profit in these places comes from stores charging exhorbitant prices

i wonder how the church would have been recognised if it funded billions in micro-lending for women in 3rd world countries,and so on.

[jnjnelson]

What was that darned principle of common consent again?

Fortunately, it is the principle of common consent, not the principle of unanimous consent.

[jnjnelson]

And please... tell me I'm dead wrong for equating the construction of the complex with these scriptures...

Col. Flagg, you are dead wrong when you equate the construction of the complex with the scriptures you cited. You're welcome.

[AussieOi]

For all those complaining about how the money used for the City Creek complex should have been used elsewhere:

Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (Jn 12:3-5)

Beware of the company you keep when making such statements. You should be less worried about what the brethren are doing with the finances in their stewardship and more worried about what you are doing with the finances in your own.

I have no idea what the purpose of the complex is.....but it could be as simple as the Lord desiring to test who will murmur and who won't. In the past the Lord has tested his followers by asking them to suffer bondage, wander the wilderness, cross plains, and march on a dead end military expedition (Zion's camp). If a shopping mall is the toughest test I have to pass then I will consider myself lucky.

sigh. here we go again.a test. yeah.thats what god does. withholds charity from the needy to blow the money on an edifice so as to test the worthiness of those who contributed the money in the first place. im sorry i dont buy it.

pulling that scripture IS valid in the discussion on the conference centre. certainly if the lord wants a $320m conference centre he can have it. it is HIS money

but lets not kid ourselves. this is buying a fancy rug for the floor of the house next door.

if he wanted a multi billion dollar building dedicated to mammon,fine. it just means my understanding of who he is and what his message is, is different than his. for some here that is the best they can cling to,along with such sad comments like "its not my area of stewardship I won't comment". sorry, this is a LAY ministry church. we ALL serve, we ALL work.

it is the LORDS church,not a church of a few privileged people with consistent surnames

[ATL Wake]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor,

Nephi and Mormon were not speaking to Babylon, their audience is the readers of the BOM. Let's be very clear, 2 Nephi 28 is directed to us. Mormon was speaking to us. If you miss that, you miss most of the BOM.

Let's be even more clear and actually discuss the wording of the scriptures in question, shall we?

Sorry, I accidentally cut off the part of the quote that prompted my response.

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor, etc ALSO apply even more so to the American people and Western Christianity - in fact more so.

In trying to apply this scripture, I just want to avoid changing its meaning by applying it to the wrong audience.

jnjnelson, I actually think what you say sounds very reasonable.

However, having the CHURCH build a mall just feels wrong to me. It doesn't feel like Zion and LOOKS a lot like Babylon. But I don't know. It just feels wrong. I have no problem with malls. I have no problem with commerce. But why does the institution that is suppose to be providing spiritual nutrition offering temporal nutrition?

Better said, isn't the Melchezidek priesthood responsible for spiritual matters and the Aaronic Priesthood suppose to see to temporal matters? That being said, what was the President of the Church (and any other apostles) doing there? I guess one could make an argument that the Presiding Bishop could oversee this. But I just don't see Nephi, Jacob, Alma, King Benjamin, Paul, Peter, Mormon, Nephi, Abraham, or any other prophet caring about building a mall. I don't see Moroni, Adam, or Isaiah standing next to the billboards used to advertise for the Center. The prophets teach repentance and point to Christ. Sorry, I just don't see it.