LDS Freedom Forum

awake wrote:

kcwhite wrote: The Church has a very vested interest in preserving and beautifying downtown SLC. It is the world HQ of the Church and they strongly desire to present a positive impression to those who come to visit the area.

I don't believe that the widows and the fatherless in the Church who suffer so greatly care about how beautiful downtown SLC is. And I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father does either, as long as they continue to cry to him.

I believe the humble and wise that come to SLC or who investigate our church, will judge our church and people by how well we take care of the widows and the fatherless and the needy above all other concerns, not by how beautiful and impressive our buildings, lands and gardens are.

For the scriptures teach that the essence of 'pure religion' is taking care of the widows and the fatherless.

Juliette wrote: awake, I respectfully disagree. I do believe Heavenly Father wants SLC, the headquarters of our Church to be as beautiful as possible. Look at the world He created. He spared no details. It is beautiful beyond compare. Let Him worry about the widows and the fatherless. He knows when one sparrow hits the ground. He will run this church, through revelation to our Prophet, the way He chooses. His ways are not our ways.

awake wrote:

kcwhite wrote: The Church has a very vested interest in preserving and beautifying downtown SLC. It is the world HQ of the Church and they strongly desire to present a positive impression to those who come to visit the area.

I don't believe that the widows and the fatherless in the Church who suffer so greatly care about how beautiful downtown SLC is. And I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father does either, as long as they continue to cry to him.

I believe the humble and wise that come to SLC or who investigate our church, will judge our church and people by how well we take care of the widows and the fatherless and the needy above all other concerns, not by how beautiful and impressive our buildings, lands and gardens are.

For the scriptures teach that the essence of 'pure religion' is taking care of the widows and the fatherless.

patriotsaint wrote:I counted at least 5 times in general conference that D&C 121 was referenced or quoted from. Glad to know that the very brethren that are teaching from this section don't understand it and have violated its teachings according to flag. Explain to me flag how the brethren have exercised unrighteous dominion?

I'm not perpetuating that notion at all patriotsaint and have never insinuated such an absurd notion - did you even read the first part of Pres. Hinckley's remarks? If not, allow me to post it again (note the underlined part)...

"When we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.”

The way you desperately grasp at straws and bend over backward to smear the church blows my mind.

I do not desire to smear the church - give me a break! =; You guys act like questioning any of the decisions coming out of Salt Lake is akin to apostasy - save it - you're way out of line and off-base with that rationale. 8-|

If only you would put so much effort into sustaining the brethren.

I sustained them on Sunday (as spiritual leaders of the church), but they are not perfect men incapable of erring in judgment and decision-making, nor are they above reproach - why can't some of you get that through your thick skulls?

Truth B Known wrote:

patriotsaint wrote:I counted at least 5 times in general conference that D&C 121 was referenced or quoted from. Glad to know that the very brethren that are teaching from this section don't understand it and have violated its teachings according to flag. Explain to me flag how the brethren have exercised unrighteous dominion?

I'm not perpetuating that notion at all patriotsaint and have never insinuated such an absurd notion - did you even read the first part of Pres. Hinckley's remarks? If not, allow me to post it again (note the underlined part)...

"When we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.”

The way you desperately grasp at straws and bend over backward to smear the church blows my mind.

I do not desire to smear the church - give me a break! =; You guys act like questioning any of the decisions coming out of Salt Lake is akin to apostasy - save it - you're way out of line and off-base with that rationale. 8-|

If only you would put so much effort into sustaining the brethren.

I sustained them on Sunday (as spiritual leaders of the church), but they are not perfect men incapable of erring in judgment and decision-making, nor are they above reproach - why can't some of you get that through your thick skulls?

It is not some men or even most men, but almost all men (and, it might be added, some women) who are disposed to the exercise of unrighteous dominion over others. That the Prophet would write this in the context of the Savior's words that "many are called but few are chosen" (see verses 34 and 40; see also Matthew 22:14) indicates that the tendency toward unrighteous dominion is a nearly universal fault that extends even to some who might occupy positions of responsibility in the Church. It would appear that this is a characteristic of the natural man that must be overcome if one is to achieve sanctification (see Mosiah 3:19).

Examining Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-46, one senses the implication that unrighteous dominion has any of at least three characteristics:

1. It fails to honor the God-given moral agency of men and women.

2. Its objective is worldly acclaim and gratification of pride and vain ambition instead of divine approbation.

3. It emphasizes tasks and agendas at the expense of human relationships and the welfare of souls.

patriotsaint wrote:

Truth B Known wrote:

patriotsaint wrote:I counted at least 5 times in general conference that D&C 121 was referenced or quoted from. Glad to know that the very brethren that are teaching from this section don't understand it and have violated its teachings according to flag. Explain to me flag how the brethren have exercised unrighteous dominion?

I'm not perpetuating that notion at all patriotsaint and have never insinuated such an absurd notion - did you even read the first part of Pres. Hinckley's remarks? If not, allow me to post it again (note the underlined part)...

"When we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.”

The way you desperately grasp at straws and bend over backward to smear the church blows my mind.

I do not desire to smear the church - give me a break! =; You guys act like questioning any of the decisions coming out of Salt Lake is akin to apostasy - save it - you're way out of line and off-base with that rationale. 8-|

If only you would put so much effort into sustaining the brethren.

I sustained them on Sunday (as spiritual leaders of the church), but they are not perfect men incapable of erring in judgment and decision-making, nor are they above reproach - why can't some of you get that through your thick skulls?

You are the thick one...and dishonest to boot. Here is a quote from one of YOUR posts:

It is not some men or even most men, but almost all men (and, it might be added, some women) who are disposed to the exercise of unrighteous dominion over others. That the Prophet would write this in the context of the Savior's words that "many are called but few are chosen" (see verses 34 and 40; see also Matthew 22:14) indicates that the tendency toward unrighteous dominion is a nearly universal fault that extends even to some who might occupy positions of responsibility in the Church. It would appear that this is a characteristic of the natural man that must be overcome if one is to achieve sanctification (see Mosiah 3:19).

Examining Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-46, one senses the implication that unrighteous dominion has any of at least three characteristics:

1. It fails to honor the God-given moral agency of men and women.

2. Its objective is worldly acclaim and gratification of pride and vain ambition instead of divine approbation.

3. It emphasizes tasks and agendas at the expense of human relationships and the welfare of souls.

So don't tell me you haven't accused the brethren of unrighteous dominion (or did you aim those words at someone else?)......it's exactly what the above quote from YOU is saying.

Truth B Known wrote:For crying out loud - it was the vain ambitions and gratifying our pride part that I was attempting to emphasize, not 'unrighteous dominion' - how is building a multi-billion mall unrighteous dominion? :-\ )

Juliette wrote:Let Him worry about the widows and the fatherless. He knows when one sparrow hits the ground. He will run this church, through revelation to our Prophet, the way He chooses. His ways are not our ways.

kcwhite wrote:For those who have difficulty understanding why the Church would spend billions on a shopping mall and not spend that money for humitarian purposes do not understand U.S. tax law.

I am not a lawyer, but I do know that the Church has to keep their for-profit money separate from their non-profit money (i.e. tithing, fast offering, etc.). They would lose their status as a non-profit if they were to co-mingle those monies. They cannot use for-profit monies to build temples, feed the poor, etc.

zion or bust wrote:I have my on own strong opinion on this issue which I'm not going to state here. This is getting ridiculous on both sides:

3 Ne. 11:29-30
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

There may not be a lot of anger here but it is just contention. Everyone has stated their opinions a thousand times. Get on with life.

laronius wrote:

zion or bust wrote:I have my on own strong opinion on this issue which I'm not going to state here. This is getting ridiculous on both sides:

3 Ne. 11:29-30
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

There may not be a lot of anger here but it is just contention. Everyone has stated their opinions a thousand times. Get on with life.

Amen!