Church's new City Creek Mall Plaza Complex commercial on TV

[AGStacker]

Here's my take. I think the Church built the mall for a number of reasons. First, currently Salt Lake is the Church home base. They would never ever let it get run down. They want it to be a vibrant community. Does it sound worldly? I suppose so. I guess it would be similar to the brethren making sure every young man is clean shaven. Does it mean anything? Absolutely not but they are trying to integrate and relate to the world without becoming worldly. As a side note, when I was a Priest I had longer hair and a beard. We had 10+ Priests but always had trouble finding people to bless the sacrament. As I was walking to go do so the Bishop stopped me as I was walking up the steps and told me that he didn't want me to do so. I still love him as my Bishop, years ago, but I thought it was totally inappropriate. And just in case you were wondering, it was a nice beard.

I believe the Church when they said no tithing funds used. The Church probably has a ton of cash laying around form investments. Remember, no debt. I hope they are buying gold and silver but am not sure they are. Anyways, this is hopefully a way for them to revitalize downtown along with making a profit after many years.

If my memory serves me right, didn't the Church essentially bail out their insurance company? Also, I know some people were bothered by how the Church bought property in Arizona for more than market value possible to bail out the Mormon home builder. Forgot which one.

In regards to humanitarian aid, I think the Church does all it can. 1 billion dollars is a lot of humanitarian aid spent and remember that the Church's aid is spent correctly. It isn't like the Cancer society which probably half of the donations or more go to salaries. These Gadianton donation places hides billions and steals billions. When the Church spends a billion on aid you know it actually went to aid. So on the outside, when comparing the Church and the Gads, you could say they spend very little but in reality a billion in aid is a lot of aid. Food, water, soap, tooth brushes, helping bring water to Africa and so forth.

[Like]

Also, I know some people were bothered by how the Church bought property in Arizona for more than market value possible to bail out the Mormon home builder. Forgot which one.

Fulton

The Mormon Church has purchased a major chunk of undeveloped property in overbuilt Maricopa from two major home builders.

Property Reserve Inc., a real-estate holding company owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, paid home builders Fulton Homes Corp. and Shea Homes for Active Adults a combined $72 million in October for about 1,900 acres of virgin land in the Pinal County city, 35 miles south of Phoenix.

The deal has left local real-estate professionals shaking their heads. They say the land isn't worth anything close to what the church paid.


"I can't understand paying that kind of price for land in Maricopa at this stage in the market," said home builder Larry Kush, founder of Scottsdale-based Montevina Estate Homes.

The median home price in Maricopa has fallen more than 40 percent since the housing market peaked in late 2005 and has shown no signs of leveling off, according to data from Information Market analyzed by The Arizona Republic.

As a result, most home builders have abandoned plans for future development in the area.

Scrapped projects include a 6,000-home community dubbed Avalea, which would have included one of Shea's active-adult communities as well as conventional housing by Fulton and Shea.

Now the orphaned land of Avalea belongs to the church, and some local analysts say Shea and Fulton got off lucky.

Jim Belfiore of Phoenix-based Belfiore Real Estate Consulting said finished lots in Maricopa - those connected to roads, water, sewer and power infrastructure - have been selling for less than what the church paid for the land, which features no such improvements.

"It's a phenomenal deal for the home builders, because very few buyers, I think, would be willing to pay that kind of money," Belfiore said.

Matt Baldwin, spokesman for Salt Lake City-based Property Reserve, did not return phone calls left last week, and neither did church officials.

Hal Looney, president of Shea Homes for Active Adults, declined comment through his assistant. The Scottsdale builder is a subsidiary of Los Angeles-based J.F. Shea Inc.

A Fulton Homes spokeswoman said the Tempe company's chief executive officer, Doug Fulton, was "the only one qualified to discuss this matter," and that he was unreachable by phone.

Analyst Zach Bowers of Ion Data in Mesa said the deal is by far the largest he has seen this year in Pinal County.

It's not unusual for the Mormon Church to buy land, Bowers said. He said it normally does so through its primary corporate entity, the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Fulton Homes founder Ira Fulton is a high-profile Mormon and philanthropist who has donated more than $250 million combined to Arizona State University, the church-owned Brigham Young University and the University of Utah.

The two home builders' losses associated with purchasing and later selling the land are commensurate with the overall market's decline.

Pinal County Recorder's Office documents show Property Reserve paid Shea $40 million for 1,000 acres Shea had bought for $80 million in July 2005, a 50 percent loss for the builder.

Likewise, Fulton sold its roughly 900 acres to Property Reserve for about $32 million, documents show. Fulton and home builder Standard Pacific of Arizona paid about $75 million for the land in 2005, and Standard Pacific later sold its half to Fulton.

Experts said that property values are expected to keep falling.

Kush said he has spent the past several months analyzing land deals and has seen raw, unimproved land in Maricopa selling for half the $37,000-per-acre price Property Reserve paid.

"That is an amazingly high number," he said.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... z1ps3mRs94" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[natasha]

Is the church a church first... or a business? The corporate aspect of the church seems to be taking over the religious part - that's the concern here.

The church is whatever you make of it Col.! If you want it to assist your "religious" needs then it's there for you. If you want it to be worldly then it's there for you! You'll find what you're looking for.
If during GC in 2 weeks all the talks are focused on the shopping mall and the speakers encourage people to go to deseret first credit union to get a visa card then go blow it all at city creek then you may be correct, the business arm has taken over the religious part. But if that doesn't happen I would encourage you to reevaluate your "concern".

I agree 100% Shadow. It really is difficult for me to understand the constant "questioning" here by some on the forum. You know, you can "thinK' anything you want, but you don't need to voice your thoughts about everything on the internet. Those concerns need to be taken to the Lord in prayer...and when I say that, I don't mean asking the Lord if the brethren are right...pleading with the Lord to be on the same page with them.

[reese]

Col. Flagg says 3 billion, Reese says 4 billion and KSL reports it's 1.5 billion. We can't even get the numbers right!I hear you shadow. I just went with the $4 billion mentioned in this thread because I did not want to look up the current estimate. I did now though just for you. The most current estimate I could find quickly is $5 billion. That is for down town revitalization, of which city creek is a major part.

Anyway, it's probably no surprise that I disagree with schitzo man Col. Flagg (from MASH) and Reese.What, no special nic-name for me....I'm feeling the love here. Actually I quite like you shadow :ymhug: , even though you drive me crazy sometimes.
Here's how I see it-
One of the for-profit corps of the church spent a lot of money buying up land around the Temple and church headquarters and built some well constructed buildings to go there which they then leased out to a partner who then subleases to stores. The church then collects rent on those buildings to help recoup it's investment while the church waits for all hell to break loose. Once that happens and all the stores close (which they will!!) the church is left with a huge property it can use for it's own purposes which in the millennium would consist of redeeming the dead etc. I think it's genius and shows the foresight of our leaders regarding future events and just how near those events are. But that's my opinion! I don't see it as a shopping mall for long.We can only hope shadow, if the Lord doesn't level it. I guess we will know how he feels about it depending on whether it is left standing or not when it is all said and done.

SALT LAKE CITY — The Salt Lake Chamber says $5 billion have gone into the revitalization of downtown Salt Lake City, and a major part of that is soon to open in the new City Creek Center.

The project is nearly finished, and H. David Burton — presiding bishop of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the man who has overseen City Creek from the beginning — anticipates the center's Mar. 22 grand opening will be just that: grand.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1942818 ... featured-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bishop Burton said.

The entire project, which will ultimately include more than 700,000 square feet of retail space, is scheduled for completion in mid-2011. The LDS Church will not discuss the overall cost of City Creek, which is being financed entirely with private money, though estimates have placed the price tag in excess of $1 billion.

The City Creek Center is a vital part of the larger downtown revitalization project, named "Downtown Rising." Over the next five years, a record $10 billion is expected to be invested in a 10-block radius in downtown Salt Lake City.

"Downtown is truly on the rise," said Lane Beattie, president and CEO of the Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce, which hosted the tour, along with its subsidiaries, the Downtown Alliance. The daylong event cost upward of $105,000.That must have been some tour.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6952 ... enter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The estimated $1.5 billion development from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its Bloomfield Hills, Michigan-based partner The Taubman Co. moved forward during a time of recession, when progress on most other major U.S. retail developments has either slowed or stopped.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... nturn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And last but certainly not least here is the churches info about how much humanitarian assistance has been rendered (1985–2010)........$1.3 billion ,scroll down to the bottom right hand corner.
http://www.providentliving.org/pdf/2010 ... nglish.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Even if city creek center only cost $1 billion, it is still just under what we have spent to help others in over 25 years. Pitiful.

[clarkkent14]

44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;
45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.
46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.
47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?
48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?
49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very aslothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.
51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the ahedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.
52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?
53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a awatchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?
54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.
55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his aservants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take ball the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;
56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.

29: The GRAND OPENING OF Beautified ZION... or BABYLON?

32: BEHOLD THERE ARE SAVE TWO CHURCHES ONLY

8 Wo unto them that join ahouse to house, till there can be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
9 In mine ears, said the Lord of Hosts, of a truth many houses shall be desolate, and great and fair cities without inhabitant.
10 Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one abath, and the seed of a homer shall yield an ephah.

[reese]

Hey now superman, don't you go misconstruing the words of the Lord.

[AshleyB]

Is the church a church first... or a business? The corporate aspect of the church seems to be taking over the religious part - that's the concern here.

The church is whatever you make of it Col.! If you want it to assist your "religious" needs then it's there for you. If you want it to be worldly then it's there for you! You'll find what you're looking for.
If during GC in 2 weeks all the talks are focused on the shopping mall and the speakers encourage people to go to deseret first credit union to get a visa card then go blow it all at city creek then you may be correct, the business arm has taken over the religious part. But if that doesn't happen I would encourage you to reevaluate your "concern".

I agree 100% Shadow. It really is difficult for me to understand the constant "questioning" here by some on the forum. You know, you can "thinK' anything you want, but you don't need to voice your thoughts about everything on the internet. Those concerns need to be taken to the Lord in prayer...and when I say that, I don't mean asking the Lord if the brethren are right...pleading with the Lord to be on the same page with them.

I strongly disagree. People have the right to voice their opinions. Even if it is dissent they are voicing. That's why this is a forum. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean no one should be able to say it. Im more neutral on this issue myself. I know things are FAR from perfect in the church but I don't always need to voice my concerns and I know the Lord is truly in control and eventually all things will be set right. But I don't mind others voicing their concerns either. Why does that make you so uncomfortable? What they say shouldn't really affect your testimony if you are grounded in Christ the Rock. Control = Satan's way of doing things no matter what the reasons are for. He wanted to force everyone to do everything the right way. And God rejected that plan. And I likewise reject this idea that people can't voice concerns or ask questions as long as they are doing so respectfully.

[Col. Flagg]

Is the church a church first... or a business? The corporate aspect of the church seems to be taking over the religious part - that's the concern here.

The church is whatever you make of it Col.! If you want it to assist your "religious" needs then it's there for you. If you want it to be worldly then it's there for you! You'll find what you're looking for.

OK, but... aren't we suppose to be in the world but not of it?

If during GC in 2 weeks all the talks are focused on the shopping mall and the speakers encourage people to go to deseret first credit union to get a visa card then go blow it all at city creek then you may be correct, the business arm has taken over the religious part. But if that doesn't happen I would encourage you to reevaluate your "concern".

Won't happen - it will be the same old rhetoric. So you really have no problem with this $3 billion complex and the stores, eateries and prices involved? Really? I'm still waiting for someone to provide an explanation of how this place accomplishes at least one of the 4-fold missions of the church?

[jnjnelson]

I … went over to the store [in Nauvoo, Illinois], where a number of brethren and sisters were assembled, who had arrived this morning from the neighborhood of New York. … I told them I was but a man, and they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them; but if they would bear with my infirmities and the infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their infirmities.

Even if you consider the new City Creek Mall to be an "infirmity" of the current church leadership, I recommend bearing with it.

As for me, whether the Mall is a mistake or not is outside my stewardship, and should therefore be outside my realm of criticism.

[patriotsaint]

For all those complaining about how the money used for the City Creek complex should have been used elsewhere:

Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (Jn 12:3-5)

Beware of the company you keep when making such statements. You should be less worried about what the brethren are doing with the finances in their stewardship and more worried about what you are doing with the finances in your own.

I have no idea what the purpose of the complex is.....but it could be as simple as the Lord desiring to test who will murmur and who won't. In the past the Lord has tested his followers by asking them to suffer bondage, wander the wilderness, cross plains, and march on a dead end military expedition (Zion's camp). If a shopping mall is the toughest test I have to pass then I will consider myself lucky.

[HeirofNumenor]

Re: 900 acres in Phoenix area- oftentimes the church leaders have been inspired to obtain land without having a clear idea of the eventual use for that land. Will it be for a future temple? A future place of refuge? Are there mineral resources or water under that land? Will it be needed later to grow food for the survivors in the region?
The high price MAYy suggest a favor to the Mormon developer who previously donated $250 million to church and charity; but time it also seems the Church wanted put any challenges to ownership beyond reach.

[natasha]

I strongly disagree. People have the right to voice their opinions. Even if it is dissent they are voicing. That's why this is a forum. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean no one should be able to say it. Im more neutral on this issue myself. I know things are FAR from perfect in the church but I don't always need to voice my concerns and I know the Lord is truly in control and eventually all things will be set right. But I don't mind others voicing their concerns either. Why does that make you so uncomfortable? What they say shouldn't really affect your testimony if you are grounded in Christ the Rock. Control = Satan's way of doing things no matter what the reasons are for. He wanted to force everyone to do everything the right way. And God rejected that plan. And I likewise reject this idea that people can't voice concerns or ask questions as long as they are doing so respectfully.

You mispeak regarding what I feel. It does not in the least make me uncomfortable...nor does what he says affect MY testimony. However, there is a sense of responsibility regarding someone else who might have a "shakey testimony", not to mention the non-members that might hit on this site....which, by the way, happened when a friend of mine (non-member) from out of state came here and really was taken aback by some of the rhetoric and discussions. So, yes...I certainly do believe that we should give careful consideration to the things we say.

[mgsbigdog]

I got bad news Flagg. And I hope you're sitting down cause this might shake your testimony. All four of the missions require (dun dun dun) money. The fact is I'd rather have a leadership that responsibly reinvests money and remains financially independent rather than one that bankrupts itself by spending beyond what is sustainable (yes even on the feel-good things). If we are instructed to tithe and then live off a percentage, put a percentage in short term savings, and put a percentage into investments (my wife and I strive for 30/30/30 after tithing) why do we have a keniption(sp?) fit when the church makes investments that not only encourage growth but protect the value of existing property?

[HeirofNumenor]

Just realize that control and freedom arguments are also used by Satan and his lawyers, etc to justify all sorts of sins

[laronius]

I strongly disagree. People have the right to voice their opinions. Even if it is dissent they are voicing. That's why this is a forum. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean no one should be able to say it. Im more neutral on this issue myself. I know things are FAR from perfect in the church but I don't always need to voice my concerns and I know the Lord is truly in control and eventually all things will be set right. But I don't mind others voicing their concerns either. Why does that make you so uncomfortable? What they say shouldn't really affect your testimony if you are grounded in Christ the Rock. Control = Satan's way of doing things no matter what the reasons are for. He wanted to force everyone to do everything the right way. And God rejected that plan. And I likewise reject this idea that people can't voice concerns or ask questions as long as they are doing so respectfully.

You mispeak regarding what I feel. It does not in the least make me uncomfortable...nor does what he says affect MY testimony. However, there is a sense of responsibility regarding someone else who might have a "shakey testimony", not to mention the non-members that might hit on this site....which, by the way, happened when a friend of mine (non-member) from out of state came here and really was taken aback by some of the rhetoric and discussions. So, yes...I certainly do believe that we should give careful consideration to the things we say.

Natasha, I whole heartedly agree. So did Pres. Beson who I quote:

"When individual actions of some Church members disturb you, here’s another principle to consider: the principle of stewardship. As the kingdom grows larger, more and more responsibilities have to be delegated and stewardships handed out. Men respond in different degrees of valiance to their stewardships. God is very patient and long suffering as he waits for some of us to learn to meet our responsibilities. He usually gives a man a long enough rope and a long enough time to either pull himself up to the presence of God or drop off somewhere below. But while God is patient, no puny arm of man in his stewardship can long impede or pervert the work of the Lord. The work of God is like a mill that grinds slowly, but grinds every so minutely—he sees to it that the work is done.

Because God has given men their agency, there will always be those who will misuse it. The gospel net draws in the good and the bad, the best and the worst. The worst because the devil, before the final cleansing, put some of his followers within the kingdom in order to try and destroy it. We have some of them within the kingdom today, and in due course their number shall be known. Time has a way of taking care of all things, of elevating the good and bringing down the bad. If we see things going on within the kingdom that disturb us, we should first find out if the matter falls within our stewardship. We then should talk to the person or people involved. If it is of such a nature that we think it should be called to the attention of higher authority, then we can, in a kindly and quiet manner, take the necessary steps at the proper level.

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy. Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

[7cylon7]

For all those complaining about how the money used for the City Creek complex should have been used elsewhere:

Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (Jn 12:3-5)

Beware of the company you keep when making such statements. You should be less worried about what the brethren are doing with the finances in their stewardship and more worried about what you are doing with the finances in your own.

I have no idea what the purpose of the complex is.....but it could be as simple as the Lord desiring to test who will murmur and who won't. In the past the Lord has tested his followers by asking them to suffer bondage, wander the wilderness, cross plains, and march on a dead end military expedition (Zion's camp). If a shopping mall is the toughest test I have to pass then I will consider myself lucky.

Once again a great scripture taken completely out of context. Nicely done. Well played.

[Col. Flagg]

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy.

=)) Really? Joseph Smith himself disagrees with that - he admonished church members to question and express alarm over decisions made within the ranks of the church that seemed to conflict with church doctrine and/or what was right - wonder why he said that?

Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Lord doesn't want a house of sheep who follow blindly - if so, why did he give us agency, freedom of speech and a brain? There is a fine line in supporting and sustaining the Lord's annointed and agreeing/disagreeing with their actions. One can support and sustain someone as a leader while disagreeing with them on something.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

Amen!!!

[John Locke]

http://www.gatherthefaithful.net/?p=168" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[laronius]

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy.

=)) Really? Joseph Smith himself disagrees with that - he admonished church members to question and express alarm over decisions made within the ranks of the church that seemed to conflict with church doctrine and/or what was right - wonder why he said that?

Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Lord doesn't want a house of sheep who follow blindly - if so, why did he give us agency, freedom of speech and a brain? There is a fine line in supporting and sustaining the Lord's annointed and agreeing/disagreeing with their actions. One can support and sustain someone as a leader while disagreeing with them on something.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

Amen!!!

Col. Flagg, everything you just responded to was from the quote of Pres. Benson not me. I only wrote the first line of my original posting.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1978/03/we-s ... nse+benson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Henmasher]

It may be loose but here is my quick attempt at your challenge col while not knowing the mind of the lord on this matter.

•Proclaim the gospel
Temple square is the largest missionary tool in the church. So by increasing the attention brought to the surrounding area people are exposed to the gospel of Christ and the missionary effort of that Holy piece of ground is put to work. For instance consider Warrens temple in the middle of no where. How many people go there and recieve conversion?

•Perfect the Saints
By sustaining the decisions of the lords annointed I can accept his will in my life, the life of His Church, and the eternitites. This mall does not change my opportunity at salvation. It can only perfect me by my reaction.

•Redeem the dead
See the first and tell me if they coincide to you in the least.

•Care for the poor and needy
The three previous address this. The poor of spirit and the needy of Christ are involved. I have no quick example of the temporal.

Lastly consider that every decision made by the brethren involves every mission fold, whether spiritual or temporal, for are not all things spiritual unto the Lord? I doubt God lets Monson drop billions of His money without a pretty strong nudge in the right direction /:)
Never has He commanded or given temporal save it shall bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. One day you are going to have to realize that your contentious spirit towards the stewardships held by your brothers and sisters is going to bring a stiff penalty to yourself when you account yours. Be ever weary and listen to the spirit but cease in your constant barrage towards my Gods annointed leaders. It is getting old (-|

[Col. Flagg]

Lastly consider that every decision made by the brethren involves every mission fold, whether spiritual or temporal, for are not all things spiritual unto the Lord? I doubt God lets Monson drop billions of His money without a pretty strong nudge in the right direction /:)

Is that how and why Pres. Hinckley dropped $250,000 for forged documents from Mark Hoffman in the 1980's?

One day you are going to have to realize that your contentious spirit towards the stewardships held by your brothers and sisters is going to bring a stiff penalty to yourself when you account yours.

=; ) The judgments being placed upon me from people like you are going to weigh more heavily than my questioning the construction of a $5 billion mall.

Be ever weary and listen to the spirit but cease in your constant barrage towards my Gods annointed leaders. It is getting old (-|

Sorry - if it acts like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Sorry for using my freedom of speech and expressing concern for how the church is spending billions on a high-priced mall during a time when many are in need. :ymapplause:

[Col. Flagg]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/2 ... _waterfall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

City Creek shoppers can rest assured that their purchases -- a $535 Porsche Design tobacco pipe, perhaps? -- will bring them a little closer to God =)) , or at least Temple Square.

Loved the comment at the bottom of the article... "so what would Jesus buy here? I'm guessing a crowbar with a clawed end"...

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/8/37a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mormon 8:37 - For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Ezek. 34: 8 - As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock

1 Nephi. 13: 7-8 - And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots; and the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.”

2 Nephi. 28: 13 (9-16) - They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

[laronius]

The point here is not whether building the mall was a good idea or not, that is not ours to decide. The point is: "Where do you draw the line?" If the Lord in his infinite wisdom has chosen these men to guide us in these last days, should we not put our trust in them, if for no other reason than because the Lord does. Does this make them perfect? Of course not. But neither are we. Case in point, Col Flagg mentioned Pres Hinckley and the purchase of the manuscript. None of us know the details behind how the decision was made. But let's assume that it was just a plain bad decision on his part. Well if making that mistake helped him become the man who would lead and bless this church for so many years then I consider that money well spent.

Now the automatic response to this by some is to say how we shouldn't just blindly follow the prophet or that so-and-so way back when said to not just automatically accept everything our church leaders say, which is a valid point. But neither should we just automatically treat everything they do with suspicion either. What evidence has anyone that they were NOT inspired by the Lord in the construction of this mall? There is none save the opinion of those who feel they are sufficiently wise and knowledgable enough to call our leaders incompetent, which is exactly what they would be to spend $3 billion on a project the Lord did not approve. So which is it, inspired or incompetance? There is no other option!

[patriotsaint]

Once again a great scripture taken completely out of context. Nicely done. Well played.

You are kidding right? The context of this scripture is someone complaining hypocritically about how church funds were used. How is that out of context? The kind of scriptural interpretation in this thread is the kind that folks make when they, "wrest them ...to [their] own destruction."

Maybe if my interpretation of scripture is so distasteful to you, I may make more headway with this quote by Joseph Smith:

If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven, and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours—for charity covereth a multitude of sins.
(History of the Church, 4:445).

The bottom line is that this issue is outside our stewardship and that even if the brethren have done something hypothetically wrong we need to be their advocates...not their accusers.

[Col. Flagg]

What evidence has anyone that they were NOT inspired by the Lord in the construction of this mall?

There's no way to know that, however, what do these scripture references bring to mind?...

Mormon 8:37 - For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Ezek. 34: 8 - As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock

1 Nephi. 13: 7-8 - And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots; and the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.”

2 Nephi. 28: 13 (9-16) - They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

There is none save the opinion of those who feel they are sufficiently wise and knowledgable enough to call our leaders incompetent, which is exactly what they would be to spend $3 billion on a project the Lord did not approve. So which is it, inspired or incompetance? There is no other option!

None of the above... you're not incompetent when you've got billions to throw into a luxury mall, but I will say one thing... if this now $5 billion mall was inspired, then the Lord is going to have to apologize to a LOT of his servants in biblical/scriptural times that were punished for their lavishness and vanity and remove many scriptures condemning the love of money and his church desiring to appeal to the world.