LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 2:48 pm**

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"
"Where are thine accusers?" the Lord asks the brethren. "Here am I!" yells out Thinker from behind a rock that he later wishes he were under.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 3:03 pm**

shadow wrote:"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"
"Where are thine accusers?" the Lord asks the brethren. "Here am I!" yells out Thinker from behind a rock that he later wishes he were under.

Why do some of you continually keep trying to make this something that it's not. No one is accusing anyone of anything. Why must we support 100% our leaders or we must vote against them? Why can't I like 95% of what they do, but disagree about the 5%? Why can't I voice my displeasure and attempt to persuade others that this is not the right path?

The church has been conducting opinion polls for a number of years. They care about our opinions. Why can't I use what little means I have to try and persuade people how we can more effectively follow the scriptures? If more people share my opinion, when they are polled, "How do you feel about the City Creek?" or "should the church use it's resources and buy gold and build a Fort Knox to protect ourselves against falling currency?", perhaps next time, members will say in their polls, "No, let's just stick to preaching the gospel and helping the poor."

You have every right to disagree with me and suggest that the church should be building malls. And when you are polled you can say that the church should increase its profits anyway it can. You have the right to not care. But as long as the leaders are polling and seeking our opinion, there should be nothing wrong with trying to sway it one way or another. There is no power in the priesthood but through persuasion.

But can we stop the assertions that those with different points of view are accusing or judging?

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 3:09 pm**

ATL Wake wrote:
But can we stop the assertions that those with different points of view are accusing or judging?

I agree completely. that has got to stop.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 3:12 pm**

ATL Wake wrote:But can we stop the assertions that those with different points of view are accusing or judging?

Excuse me? The posts I read aren't just different points of view, they are condemnations. Maybe go back and re-read.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 3:19 pm**

kathyn wrote: Do I think the Brethren are infallible? Absolutely not. They are humans with faults, too. But they are much more righteous than any of the rest of us, I'm betting.

Being an Apostle does not mean that he is more righteous or even righteous at all. Even Joseph Smith was deceived to call at least one wicked man (if not more than one) to be an Apostle. (Bennett, who had abandoned his wife & children in the East & was seducing women in Nauvoo & Joseph without knowing the truth about him, even put him in the 1st Presidency)

Even Judas was or became wicked while an Apostle.

Apostles today can be as unrighteous or fall as easy as apostles in Joseph's or Christ's day or as easy an any other member today. Many apostles fell in Joseph's day.

Apostles often do things in their everyday lives that many members in the Church wouldn't agree with or ever do.

It is not 'speaking evil' of someone if what is said is true & necessary to warn others about. If such things can be taken care of privately then they should be, but when it involves a leader who can influence others, sometimes it is necessary to warn people publicly.

Even Joseph often warned the Saints publicly about certain apostles, leaders & members & told of the evils they were doing. Such was not considered 'speaking evil' of anyone.

All who have been through the temple are the 'Lord's anointed'. Speaking evil of someone is when we intentionally try to do them harm by spreading 'false' accusations.

Warning others of false doctrine being taught or done by leaders is actually a loving & Christlike thing to do & something we are commanded to do.

We have been warned many times that there will be 'many' false prophets & false doctrines today among us, & thus we are commanded to be prophets ourselves so we can determine & discern true prophets from false ones & false doctrine & deeds from true ones, or we will be easily deceived.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 3:51 pm**

awake wrote:Being an Apostle does not mean that he is more righteous or even righteous at all. Even Joseph Smith was deceived to call at least one wicked man (if not more than one) to be an Apostle. (Bennett, who had abandoned his wife & children in the East & was seducing women in Nauvoo & Joseph without knowing the truth about him, even put him in the 1st Presidency)

Even Judas was or became wicked while an Apostle.

Apostles today can be as unrighteous or fall as easy as apostles in Joseph's or Christ's day or as easy an any other member today. Many apostles fell in Joseph's day.

Apostles often do things in their everyday lives that many members in the Church wouldn't agree with or ever do.

It is not 'speaking evil' of someone if what is said is true & necessary to warn others about. If such things can be taken care of privately then they should be, but when it involves a leader who can influence others, sometimes it is necessary to warn people publicly.

Even Joseph often warned the Saints publicly about certain apostles, leaders & members & told of the evils they were doing. Such was not considered 'speaking evil' of anyone.

All who have been through the temple are the 'Lord's anointed'. Speaking evil of someone is when we intentionally try to do them harm by spreading 'false' accusations.

Warning others of false doctrine being taught or done by leaders is actually a loving & Christlike thing to do & something we are commanded to do.

We have been warned many times that there will be 'many' false prophets & false doctrines today among us, & thus we are commanded to be prophets ourselves so we can determine & discern true prophets from false ones & false doctrine & deeds from true ones, or we will be easily deceived.

Many good points.
And welcome, Awake!

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 4:02 pm**

EclecticLibertarian wrote:When a vote is called to sustain one's leaders or a decision of one's leaders, is this because the body of the Church has the power to override the decisions of the Brethren? Or is it merely a formal display of acceptance or loyalty and allegiance?

It depends on each's "free agency" interpretation, isn't it?
Some give over their free agency & accept & obey whatever leaders tell them, even if it's killing men, women & children, as Brigham Young ordered in the Extermination Order of Ute Native Americans.

To me, it means supporting them in as much as they are fulfilling the 2 greatest commandments given by Jesus: to love God & to to love others as ourselves..."on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the PROPHETS."
Loving God, who IS love (1John 4:8) is wanting what is best & realizing that whatever we do to others, we do to God & however we neglect others, we neglect God.
Currently, it is assumed of members to support church leaders in robbing the poor.
Deut 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHING, not "extra donations" are to be given to the poor.
Not a penny of LDS funds are given to the poor, as evident of donation slips.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 4:14 pm**

EclecticLibertarian wrote:When a vote is called to sustain one's leaders or a decision of one's leaders, is this because the body of the Church has the power to override the decisions of the Brethren? Or is it merely a formal display of acceptance or loyalty and allegiance?

In the current Church, which has abrogated the Law of Common Consent, there is no power to override any decision. In fact, a member risks discipline if he/she actually raises his/her hand in the negative (depending on who the "vote" is for) - remember, one's temple recommend is dependent upon sustaining the Brethren.

In the early Church, during Joseph Smith's time, the Law of Common Consent was actually practiced as given by the Lord. It was an actual "vote." The word "sustain" is not found in scripture relative to the Law of Common Consent. The Lord Himself stated that you could either approve names or "disapprove" names at a conference. (See D&C 124:144.) This actually occurred at a General Conference, where the conference voted to retain Sidney Rigdon as Joseph's first counselor, when Joseph had nominated another. Joseph was furious, but could do nothing about it. At an earlier conference, Joseph nominated Frederick G. Williams as second counselor, but the conference rejected him and voted in Hyrum Smith instead. It is supposed to be a real vote.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 4:39 pm**

Stella Solaris wrote:It is supposed to be a real vote.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 4:50 pm**

I am curious about what other solutions there were to boost the economy in downtown SLC and the area around temple square. What would you guys have done with the same space to revitalize that area and protect the church's assets? Obviously there had to be some concern with the bad economy and the area going downhill.

How about we list some alternatives to what was done? What would you have done to revitalize the area and boost the economy plus protect temple square?

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 5:02 pm**

Stella Solaris wrote: a member risks discipline if he/she actually raises his/her hand in the negative (depending on who the "vote" is for) - remember, one's temple recommend is dependent upon sustaining the Brethren.

I believe that God only asks us to support, sustain or follow 'righteous' Brethren or leaders who we feel are trustworthy and who are truly teaching and living in harmony with the holy scriptures. God never asks us to accept or sustain anyone we feel is not righteous.

We may know something about a leader that even other leaders don't know yet or believe, and thus we are only accountable to God for our vote.

We are commanded to judge, even and especially, our leaders, but we must judge righteously, by the Holy Spirit and by using the holy scriptures as the standard to determine if their fruits are good or not.

"If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches..."
Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, 5:490-491, April 1, 1844.

"My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine."
Joseph Fielding Smith

"Whenever you find any doctrine, any idea, any expression from any source whatsoever that is in conflict with that which the Lord has revealed and which is found in the holy scriptures, you may be assured that it is false and you should put is aside and stand firmly grounded in the truth in prayer and in faith, relying upon the Spirit of the Lord."
Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, CR Apr. 1917, 59-60, 64.

"If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man's own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth."
Harold B. Lee

"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them, even if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extremes notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves."
Apostle Samuel Richards, Millennial Star, Nov. 13, 1852.

"You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204.ble to God for our vote.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 5:11 pm**

Let's get a list going then. If we are going to start with the idea that this mall doesn't "square with the revelations" (though it clearly does), let's be fair and list everything the Brethren have done/taught that doesn't "square with the revelations" so we can help each avoid those evils.

Fill in the blanks:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 5:54 pm**

Istand4truth wrote:I am curious about what other solutions there were to boost the economy in downtown SLC and the area around temple square. What would you guys have done with the same space to revitalize that area and protect the church's assets? Obviously there had to be some concern with the bad economy and the area going downhill.

How about we list some alternatives to what was done? What would you have done to revitalize the area and boost the economy plus protect temple square?

That's the whole point here - what business is it of a church's to 'revitalize' a city because the buildings aren't attracting shoppers, are 'run-down', etc.??? How about 2/3 of the population of the world that live in mud huts - what about their 'run-down' buildings? I'm sorry, but IMHO, dedicating billions in church monies for a stinking luxury mall should not only be way at the bottom of priorities for the church, it shouldn't even be on the radar and if anyone wants to tell me 'it's not my stewardship' and condemn me for standing up for the poor, the widows, the fatherless, the needy, the sick, the unemployed, the mourners, etc., go right ahead... guilty as charged.

As for alternatives as to what was done? Easy... nothing - allocate the funds for other church resources that can directly and immediately benefit the members of the church and the aforementioned as that is what should be happening and it shouldn't take several of us here in the forum to point it out. Seriously... if anyone honestly thinks a luxurious shopping mall is just what the Lord and our Savior desire with sacred funds, then I've got some beachfront property in Kansas to sell you. I'm not even sure protection from a dollar collapse or loss of reserve currency status was the motive anymore as it is looking more and more like a corporate/business decision for a money-making venture. LDS, Inc. - nice! :ymsick:

Furthermore... consider the words of Boyd K. Packer from an April 26, 2008 Stake Conference he attended and spoke at (paraphrasing)...

He told the youth and their parents that they will need to be thrifty and to use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.

He talked to the youth about learning to eat differently than they had before.

He said that Saints in 3rd world countries will need our help - that it will be our responsibility (the church’s).

Does billions for a luxury mall for the more well-to-do fit with that?

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 6:24 pm**

Ben McClintock wrote:Let's get a list going then. If we are going to start with the idea that this mall doesn't "square with the revelations" (though it clearly does) ) , let's be fair and list everything the Brethren have done/taught that doesn't "square with the revelations" so we can help each avoid those evils.

Fill in the blanks:

1. 2 Nephi 28: 9, 12-15
2. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/vain-vanity?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/v/3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. http://www.josephsmith.net/ldsorg/v/ind ... 82620aRCRD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5. President Hinckley: "When we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man” (D&C 121:36–37).

6. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/5 ... inion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is not some men or even most men, but almost all men (and, it might be added, some women) who are disposed to the exercise of unrighteous dominion over others. That the Prophet would write this in the context of the Savior's words that "many are called but few are chosen" (see verses 34 and 40; see also Matthew 22:14) indicates that the tendency toward unrighteous dominion is a nearly universal fault that extends even to some who might occupy positions of responsibility in the Church. It would appear that this is a characteristic of the natural man that must be overcome if one is to achieve sanctification (see Mosiah 3:19).

Examining Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-46, one senses the implication that unrighteous dominion has any of at least three characteristics:

1. It fails to honor the God-given moral agency of men and women.

2. Its objective is worldly acclaim and gratification of pride and vain ambition instead of divine approbation.

3. It emphasizes tasks and agendas at the expense of human relationships and the welfare of souls.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 7:51 pm**

Truth B Known wrote: As for alternatives as to what was done? Easy... nothing - allocate the funds for other church resources that can directly and immediately benefit the members of the church and the aforementioned as that is what should be happening and it shouldn't take several of us here in the forum to point it out.

"Easy" for some. Apparently not so easy for others...

On the larger issue, it's interesting how some feel immediately to ask the "questioners" why they are even members of the Church at all? Why don't you leave the Church, if you're so disgusted? they ask. Or they assume we are some leader of an apostate break-off, pretending to be a sheep here on the forum. It's like they cannot grasp the idea of an active, tithe-paying LDS questioning what is done, ever. Or questioning anything, for that matter. It must drive them crazy.... or make them uncomfortable..... or something.....

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 7:56 pm**

Squally wrote:
Mark wrote: When the trials of the Saints kick up a gear I will bet my food storage that those who display such little faith and confidence in the Brethrens integrity and revelatory powers will be among the first to head for the exits. Just wait and see..
You may be very surprised when things get really rough how those whom you have judged may the those who have the greatest desire and faith of all. You cannot judge a mans heart. Some people have their hearts set upon righteousness and God himself (above all else in this life). Others have their heart set upon what they can see (flesh) while proudly claiming that this equals setting it upon God. Many loudly proclaim that they follow the prophet, and they wear this as a badge of honor for all to see. We have been warned in the scriptures to avoid trusting in the arm of flesh. Do you believe the scriptures? Do you know what it means to trust in the arm of flesh? Do you know what it means to trust in the arm of God? Flesh and God are two very different things. One is imperfect, corruptible, and prone to error. The other is perfect, incorruptible, and never in error. When we follow anyone, it must be done with God's confirmation in all things, or we are trusting in the arm of flesh. A confirmation in general is not enough. We must be seeking the Lords will daily, minute by minute if we are to become like our savior. And following the Lord is not a prideful thing, it is an act of humility.

By the way, Squally, this was great. I feel the same way. We're going to be surprised who comes through and who falls when things get rough. Like they say, a spider web's as good as a cable in the absence of pressure.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 8:13 pm**

It is just an exercise to see if we are learning to be of one mind and purpose.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 8:57 pm**

I believe that the more righteous a person is the more they question everything & everyone, to make sure 'they or it' is right or not. For they know how easy it is to be deceived by the falsehoods of even well meaning people & leaders.

I do not believe Heavenly Father wants us to just believe and go along with anyone else's 'say so' or 'testimony' or actions, for anyone can be wrong or fall.

Heavenly Father expects us to gain and use knowledge and the Spirit to discern all truth from error.

For without knowledge we perish Joseph Smith says.

Even the Prophet Moroni encourages us to not just take his word for it, (Moroni 10:3-5) but to study, pray & prove that his scriptures are correct. So of course we would do this with anyone else's words & deeds too.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 9:19 pm**

awake wrote:I believe that the more righteous a person is the more they question everything & everyone, to make sure 'they or it' is right or not. For they know how easy it is to be deceived by the falsehoods of even well meaning people & leaders.

I do not believe Heavenly Father wants us to just believe and go along with anyone else's 'say so' or 'testimony' or actions, for anyone can be wrong or fall.

Heavenly Father expects us to gain and use knowledge and the Spirit to discern all truth from error.

For without knowledge we perish Joseph Smith says.

Even the Prophet Moroni encourages us to not just take his word for it, (Moroni 10:3-5) but to study, pray & prove that his scriptures are correct. So of course we would do this with anyone else's words & deeds too.

can you say you have done all three concerning the mall?

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 9:24 pm**

oh touche!
Are you saying a prophet in the Bof M says "take me up on this and see"
and Malachi also, and Joseph Smith and others

Why then do people say to us "if you are questining this, you are going apostate and speaking ill of the lords anointed" (bearing in mind anyone who's gone through the temple is equally anointed- but thats besides)

i think its because people want to be compelled in all things, and want justification for what they aren't doing, which they think true christians (as per the bible and book of mormon and 75% of the words out of christs moutn) would/ should be doing

sadly, we as a church ran west, god behind a hill, and then built it up and showed ourselves off to the world saying "look at us, we're like you too"

are we so desperate for the approval of the world we forget we are meant to be out there_changing_the world?

i wonder if every single church employee were sacked tomorrow, would the church drop these "programs" and "meetings" and "corelations" and "paperwork", and would we start finding the Christ who once touched their lives?

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 9:32 pm**

I have never had a problem with people asking questions. In fact, that is how we get answers. The danger lies in assuming we already know the answer, as if our present knowledge is sufficient to handle any question that arises. Are there people who blindly follow? yes, as there have always been and sooner or later the Lord will prove them. But we should be vigilent that we do not become guilty of the very thing that some accuse the brethren of: acting (or speaking out) without first seeking inspiration.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 9:41 pm**

laronius wrote: can you say you have done all three concerning the mall?

I'm still pondering and studying about it, but the mall is not the highest thing on my priority list right now to be concerned about. Though it does give me serious pause. But I am definitely concerned about the widows and the fatherless and the needy that I see being ignored and not cared for in the Church.

I was just pointing out the process I believe we all need to go through if we want to know for sure if the 'mall' or anything else 'said or done' by our leaders is a righteous thing or not.

There are many more dire things I'm seeing going on, that I have studied, prayed & received proof on that lead me to put my focus elsewhere at this time.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 9:44 pm**

YEARNING FOR ZION

Today is the day after General Conference. This was the first time I did not fall asleep and actually listened to every word. I think my motivation to listen to every talk was more out of curiousity than anything. I am not sure I will make any comments about what was said in conference, but in the meantime, I wanted to share some words about Zion that I recieved from a friend of mine. (BTW: this is the 40th post on this blog. The number 40 is significant. It was 40 years that the Israelites wandered in the wilderness. Yesterday marked a new month. It was a new day for me. Hopefully all of you will enjoy the week with Passover/Easter. It is important, and significant.

"One clear lesson from our history is that the very moment we as a people rejected Zion during the Missouri period, we have been slaves in Babylon ever since. Zion and Babylon cannot and do not coexist. They are mutually exclusive and inexorably separate. We have taken on every habit of Babylon and made them our own.

Because every dime we earn comes from Babylon, it’s already polluted when we receive it, so how could God ever want, or need our filthy lucre to build a Zion society? If our hearts were truly attuned to Zion, God would provide all that we need (manna and more) to establish Zion, without any of Babylon’s impurities. We cannot expect to use Babylonian institutions or instruments of any kind in the establishment of a true Zion. It must come by faith, and by the results of miracles which follow our faith. Anything less is corrupted and co-opted by Babylon, and Zion cannot be established on the principles of Babylon. As Zion is God’s abode, then He would provide everything to build Zion, as God surely would not abide a Babylonian built city, or altar, or Throne.

So far as we are aware, there has only been one successfully established Zion society in the history of this world which did not eventually succumb to Babylon. So how did they do it? Somehow I doubt that Enoch’s people established banks to loan money for usury to build Zion. Nor did they start businesses to acquire stock, or to sell their businesses for fabulous profits to initiate a Zion. Enoch did not exchange gold for goods, nor did he barter in real-estate. They did not acquire wealth on the backs of the laboring poor either, as that would be an offense to God. So where did they get the means to build God’s City? Enoch must have awakened to these greater principles, and the resultant miracles built the City.

Somehow, if we can get our minds and hearts wrapped around the idea that EVERYTHING we know and experience in this world is Babylon, then perhaps we can begin to reorient our eyes towards God with an intention and hope to establish Zion. It cannot come from a corrupt institution, a failed priesthood, or from our corrupted hearts. We must extricate ourselves from every idea associated with Babylon in our hopes to build Zion. Then perhaps God will open the door to Zion! Until that time comes and until that people arise, we will still be found rejecting Zion."

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 9:46 pm**

awake wrote:
laronius wrote: can you say you have done all three concerning the mall?
I'm still pondering and studying about it, but the mall is not the highest thing on my priority list right now to be concerned about. Though it does give me serious pause. And I am definitely concerned about the widows and the fatherless and the needy that I see being ignored and not cared for in the Church.

I was just pointing out the process I believe we all need to go through if we want to know for sure if the 'mall' or anything else 'said or done' by our leaders is a righteous thing or not.

There are many more dire things I'm seeing going on, that I have studied, prayed & received proof on that lead me to put my focus elsewhere at this time.

I only hope the proof you have received in such matters is the kind that only the Spirit can provide.

Posted: **April 2nd, 2012, 9:50 pm**

laronius wrote:can you say you have done all three concerning the mall?

well this is where religion gets difficult isn't it
such as how did a child molester get called to callings and keep his calling, don't we have revelation?

should i pray and ask god if it was the right decision for the area authority to call that stake president to the calling when he was really a monster?" and what about all the people who sustained him?

i expect that anyone who took the question of "lord , did you want this mall built" to the lord would get a no and find themselves in a pretty empty place so they wont want to go there.

this is because really, its a frikking shopping centre for goodness sakes.
$5b vs $1.4b. we pretty well know the answer
king benjamin did not say sit in a tent listen to me, my son is going to build a mall to manage your money

subjectively if some people prayed about this woudl they convince themself that as (they are told by so many here) their entire testimony rests on this and so they already know that they will get off their knees with a "they are the lords prophets therefore anything they do wont be wrong so I'll accept it". its redundant before we even need to do it

or i get up and say "you know what aussie, they really got this one wrong." and then i think im smarter and better than them, and then im on the slope i dont want to be on. so again this is not one to pray about, rather, we need to frame the question right

"in light of this being what really appears a terrible decision, am i best to defer to their wisdom and just accept it for good or for bad" thats probably better

better to shut up and just accept its an investment decision by a corporate body its just a shame that religious mormons opened it with a ribbon cutting, and accept that for good or bad im clearly on a different path to them at this time on that. (mark will chime in with his preditable response no doubt good for you mark, its all you have you are a 1 trick pony here mate)

if Pres Hinckley, in general conference, in front of 10m members desperate to hear a prophet speak to us on the single biggest issue in 50 years, can declare his opinion and say it is just his opinion, (being the iraq war and the fake war on terror) and say he supports it, and that is only his opinion, and be wrong as he was, then can the church members responsible for this shopping centre decision be wrong? can it be their opinion? or are our leaders infallible?

maybe bein gunder condemnation as a church means when the people want war the prophet doesnt get told anything from god- maybe he says hey, if they want war then i'm shutting up shop and they can get what they want

maybe now the people want a shopping centre. thats hardly surprising because guess what? we're the 4th generation since the restitution, and look at those nephites who we are patterned after

, and so the investment people bloodsuckers come into church HQ and say "here's a great idea, we build a nice clean mall, nice shops, good aesthetics, money invested close to home, earns reliable rental income" and the 12 take it to the lord

"Lord, we've decided to invest the money in a mall and it will return 5% and be good for the environs, please give us a stupor of thought if this is wrong"

If the people WANT a mall in their lives, well, whats that saying? be careful what you pray for, be careful what you wish for

was Joseph Smith wrong in going to Salem? Was he wrong in Zions bank, was he wrong with the printing press, was he wrong choosing President Bennet? most likely

These men are not infallible

today some point to us and say YOU have to pray about it and YOU have to accept it or YOU are apostate

well its easy now for them to say that isn't it

problem is this is just another example of our designed frailty, our designed humanity.

my question is, how will these people cope when the issue is a matter closer to home for them, and is something THEY disagree with, or struggle to reconcile with what they think true christianity is?

maybe sometimes god just says "your call children."

or even worse, he just gives us what we want

The Aaronic priesthood is named after a man who did what with a golden calf for what reason again?

I am sure if there was a MFF back then, and some people wandered off in a corner and said "are thes epeople serious? a golden calf?" would people have said look, the ledaersd are doing it, it can't be wrong

thats an example showing how the leaders then WERE wrong. im not even saying theyre wrong here, simply saying maybe they'r enot right. they are 2 exclusive issues, not right but not wrong

LDS Freedom Forum

Church's new City Creek Mall Plaza Complex commercial on TV

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