LDS Freedom Forum

Mark wrote: When the trials of the Saints kick up a gear I will bet my food storage that those who display such little faith and confidence in the Brethrens integrity and revelatory powers will be among the first to head for the exits. Just wait and see..

Truth B Known wrote:

Mark wrote:

Truth B Known wrote: Mark, we're not mocking - our concerns are sincere and honest - OK, here's an analogy for you - what if the church announced tomorrow that they had made the decision to get into the theme park business and would be dropping $100 million dollars to invest in, say, a Six Flags for Salt Lake City in order to help 'revitalize' the area, attract even more tourists and to 'preserve the image and beauty' of Salt Lake. You'd be perfectly OK with that without having any doubts in your mind and simply accept that there must be a 'higher purpose' for it?

Let me put it this way Bro. If the united voice of the Brethren decided to build a city on the moon I would look for every opportunity to try and support them in their desires and goals. I have a firm and abiding testimony through the spirit that these Prophets are men of God inspired to do a great work in these latter days. If they feel something should be done to further the work of the Lord prior to his coming that is good enough for me. When their decisions are made as a united body all arguments cease in my mind. I have faith that they are about the Lords business. I fully believe time will bear that out.

Mark, I admire your faithfulness, loyalty and attitude of maintaining the position that you would never question the brethren about anything as that shows you are committed to sustaining them and their endeavors as servants of the Lord, however, are you so caught up with your belief in the infallibility of any of the church leaders that you honestly don't believe they are capable of making wrong decisions, especially when it comes to spending church funds? I get the whole stewardship thing, believe me, but guess what... $2.5 billion was just dropped on a luxury mall that came from interest allegedly earned from investment funds which derived from tithing in the first place (those are sacred funds from the general membership for the building of the kingdom, are they not)?... and back in 1979, the church stopped being accountable to the members for the use of church funds... you don't find any of this troubling in the least bit?

And let's get something else straight right now... I am not treading into apostate waters because of my concern, I am not exhibiting a complete lack of mistrust in the brethren when it comes to using sacred funds and I am not criticizing the leadership of the church... what I am doing is simply asking why... why is the church investing billions into a stinking luxury shopping mall when it has NOTHING to do with the 4-fold mission of the church? And if you think I'm outta line for asking, so be it... I happen to think it's healthy for members to occasionally exhibit the fact that we are not blind sheep who are expected to not question anything our imperfect brethren do or say and the church does have this superiority complex where we are expected to not question anything that comes out of Salt Lake as if God and Christ themselves reside in the church office building... IMHO, this is far more dangerous of an attitude than anything we, as members, might express concern over!!

kathyn wrote: Do I think the Brethren are infallible? Absolutely not. They are humans with faults, too. But they are much more righteous than any of the rest of us, I'm betting. And when it comes to major decisions, I'm with them because I know they have made these decisions as a result of mighty prayer. Can those who are criticizing them say the same?

shadow wrote:

kathyn wrote: Do I think the Brethren are infallible? Absolutely not. They are humans with faults, too. But they are much more righteous than any of the rest of us, I'm betting. And when it comes to major decisions, I'm with them because I know they have made these decisions as a result of mighty prayer. Can those who are criticizing them say the same?

While they are righteous I don't believe they are more righteous. The difference is in the keys they hold.

Mark wrote: If you really believe that our Prophets are in fact in this state of apostasy why in the world would you want to continue being a member of that kind of organization? Can you see a problem here Col? Is it connecting now?

Many of those here who have been critical of the Brethren on this thread truly believe in their hearts that the church has gone astray and the Brethren have become corrupted. They are using you to continue making their point.

Now is the time to take your stand. Do you believe this as well? If you do at least have the personal integrity to go see your Bishop or Stake President and tell him of your feelings of the Brethren and the church.

Mark wrote:
Speak for yourself shadow dancer. I will go on record as saying I KNOW they are more righteous than I am. :-B

Squally wrote:

Mark wrote: When the trials of the Saints kick up a gear I will bet my food storage that those who display such little faith and confidence in the Brethrens integrity and revelatory powers will be among the first to head for the exits. Just wait and see..

You may be very surprised when things get really rough how those whom you have judged may the those who have the greatest desire and faith of all.

:ymapplause: Amen!

You cannot judge a mans heart. Some people have their hearts set upon righteousness and God himself (above all else in this life). Others have their heart set upon what they can see (flesh) while proudly claiming that this equals setting it upon God. Many loudly proclaim that they follow the prophet, and they wear this as a badge of honor for all to see. We have been warned in the scriptures to avoid trusting in the arm of flesh. Do you believe the scriptures? Do you know what it means to trust in the arm of flesh? Do you know what it means to trust in the arm of God? Flesh and God are two very different things. One is imperfect, corruptible, and prone to error. The other is perfect, incorruptible, and never in error.

This is where the divide is with Mark - he's equating the Lord's annointed with perfection and infallibility as if they're all incapable of wrong-doing - I think it's pretty obvious this line of thinking in erroneous.

When we follow anyone, it must be done with God's confirmation in all things, or we are trusting in the arm of flesh. A confirmation in general is not enough. We must be seeking the Lords will daily, minute by minute if we are to become like our savior. And following the Lord is not a prideful thing, it is an act of humility.

What amazes me here the most is how those of us questioning using billions in church monies for a luxury mall are behaving as if we're the ones who think it's perfectly OK and divinely-inspired as if we're the ones focused on vain ambitions and profit for the church. :ymblushing: Heaven forbid anyone should want to see billions in church funds used for the needy and less fortunate instead of for a luxury mall that appeals to the world with seemingly vain ambitions and profit for the corporate arm of the church as the motive.

Mark wrote:

shadow wrote:

kathyn wrote: Do I think the Brethren are infallible? Absolutely not. They are humans with faults, too. But they are much more righteous than any of the rest of us, I'm betting. And when it comes to major decisions, I'm with them because I know they have made these decisions as a result of mighty prayer. Can those who are criticizing them say the same?

While they are righteous I don't believe they are more righteous. The difference is in the keys they hold.

Speak for yourself shadow dancer. I will go on record as saying I KNOW they are more righteous than I am. :-B

Ben McClintock wrote:where do you think the profits of the mall will go to? ... No, it will go towards earning even more money to help those in need, either through direct assistance or through building up the Church in other areas.

What if they ask to reinvest it into another worldly project so that THOSE profits go to the poor? Why do we have to maximize profit and investment like Babylon?

This isn't about infallibility, its about understanding what the role of the Presiding Bishopric. Invest money into things that could make even more money to help the cause that they have direct stewardship over. Ya, that is sooooo evil 8-|

ATL Wake wrote:

Ben McClintock wrote:where do you think the profits of the mall will go to? ... No, it will go towards earning even more money to help those in need, either through direct assistance or through building up the Church in other areas.

What if they ask to reinvest it into another worldly project so that THOSE profits go to the poor? Why do we have to maximize profit and investment like Babylon? Anyone has the chance ever Ward, Stake and General Conference to voice their opposition to the actions of those men. If they ask to do that and you feel it is wrong, do it there. Since the Church (meaning the members of the corporation) has chosen to live amongst Babylon, why wouldn't they do it this way?

This isn't about infallibility, its about understanding what the role of the Presiding Bishopric. Invest money into things that could make even more money to help the cause that they have direct stewardship over. Ya, that is sooooo evil 8-|

It's not evil, but it doesn't sound like Zion as much as it sounds like a corporation. Is that what Joseph Smith restored? A profit-driven corporation?

Ben McClintock wrote:where do you think the profits of the mall will go to? Making the just released Presiding Bishopric rich? No, it will go towards earning even more money to help those in need, either through direct assistance or through building up the Church in other areas.

This isn't about infallibility, its about understanding what the role of the Presiding Bishopric. Invest money into things that could make even more money to help the cause that they have direct stewardship over. Ya, that is sooooo evil 8-|

Let me put it this way Bro. If the united voice of the Brethren decided to build a city on the moon I would look for every opportunity to try and support them in their desires and goals.

Ben McClintock wrote: It IS a corporation, the corporation of the Presiding Bishopric to be exact, and YES, Joseph DID give it that function. It's all in the D&C and History of the Church for anyone that wants to look.

ATL Wake wrote:

Ben McClintock wrote: It IS a corporation, the corporation of the Presiding Bishopric to be exact, and YES, Joseph DID give it that function. It's all in the D&C and History of the Church for anyone that wants to look.

If it is a corporation, then as a minority shareholder, I get to voice my opinion and not have people think I am speaking ill....yep, you sure do, every Ward, Stake, and General Conference

If I should not voice my opinion because the the Lord is in charge, then the institution should look like the Lord is in charge. Just because the office was revealed by the Lord, doesn't mean everything those with the calling is godly, that is why you have your option of voicing your opposition at conference, I was merely pointing out that this specific use of funds was clearly within their area of authority according to the revelations and actions of Joseph Smith the Prophet.

Ben McClintock wrote:

ATL Wake wrote:

Ben McClintock wrote: It IS a corporation, the corporation of the Presiding Bishopric to be exact, and YES, Joseph DID give it that function. It's all in the D&C and History of the Church for anyone that wants to look.

If it is a corporation, then as a minority shareholder, I get to voice my opinion and not have people think I am speaking ill....yep, you sure do, every Ward, Stake, and General Conference

If I should not voice my opinion because the the Lord is in charge, then the institution should look like the Lord is in charge. Just because the office was revealed by the Lord, doesn't mean everything those with the calling is godly, that is why you have your option of voicing your opposition at conference, I was merely pointing out that this specific use of funds was clearly within their area of authority according to the revelations and actions of Joseph Smith the Prophet.

ATL Wake wrote:
I wasn't denying having a voice. What I am saying is that if you are going to reduce the church to a corporation, you can't suggest it's a sin to speak ill of the board of directors.

Ben McClintock wrote:

ATL Wake wrote:

Ben McClintock wrote:where do you think the profits of the mall will go to? ... No, it will go towards earning even more money to help those in need, either through direct assistance or through building up the Church in other areas.

What if they ask to reinvest it into another worldly project so that THOSE profits go to the poor? Why do we have to maximize profit and investment like Babylon? Anyone has the chance ever Ward, Stake and General Conference to voice their opposition to the actions of those men. If they ask to do that and you feel it is wrong, do it there. Since the Church (meaning the members of the corporation) has chosen to live amongst Babylon, why wouldn't they do it this way?

This isn't about infallibility, its about understanding what the role of the Presiding Bishopric. Invest money into things that could make even more money to help the cause that they have direct stewardship over. Ya, that is sooooo evil 8-|

It's not evil, but it doesn't sound like Zion as much as it sounds like a corporation. Is that what Joseph Smith restored? A profit-driven corporation?

It IS a corporation, the corporation of the Presiding Bishopric to be exact, and YES, Joseph DID give it that function. It's all in the D&C and History of the Church for anyone that wants to look.

Truth B Known wrote: Then please tell me how the church qualified for 501c3 tax-exempt status?

Ben McClintock wrote:where do you think the profits of the mall will go to? Making the just released Presiding Bishopric rich? No, it will go towards earning even more money to help those in need, either through direct assistance or through building up the Church in other areas.

Ben, you are missing the point entirely - we are a church... not a for-profit corporation that operates like a Fortune 500 company!

This isn't about infallibility, its about understanding what the role of the Presiding Bishopric. Invest money into things that could make even more money to help the cause that they have direct stewardship over. Ya, that is sooooo evil 8-|

Ben, since 1985, the church has donated $1.5 billion in humanitarian aid/assistance for the needy which is $60 million a year. The church takes in about $5 billion annually. We just dropped $2.5 billion in tithing-generated interest on a mall... an amount that would take 42 years to match in humanitarian aid - the argument that any monies earned from the mall complex would be used to help the poor is absurd when the initial $2.5 billion for the project could have lasted 42 years at the current percentage of income donation.

Truth B Known wrote:

Ben McClintock wrote:where do you think the profits of the mall will go to? Making the just released Presiding Bishopric rich? No, it will go towards earning even more money to help those in need, either through direct assistance or through building up the Church in other areas.

Ben, you are missing the point entirely - we are a church... not a for-profit corporation that operates like a Fortune 500 company!

This isn't about infallibility, its about understanding what the role of the Presiding Bishopric. Invest money into things that could make even more money to help the cause that they have direct stewardship over. Ya, that is sooooo evil 8-|

Ben, since 1985, the church has donated $1.5 billion in humanitarian aid/assistance for the needy which is $60 million a year. The church takes in about $5 billion annually. We just dropped $2.5 billion in tithing-generated interest on a mall... an amount that would take 42 years to match in humanitarian aid - the argument that any monies earned from the mall complex would be used to help the poor is absurd when the initial $2.5 billion for the project could have lasted 42 years at the current percentage of income donation.

Walden wrote:

Thinker wrote:I have fasted & prayed & cried for the members of the church to wake up & realize what is most needed... LOVE.

By "love" I don't just mean the kissy, feel good feeling.
I mean, God, who is love... who sees what is best, who knows that a person dying is worth helping, as the parable of the good Samaritan.

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds like this.

If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is bacceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.
And charity suffereth long, and is bkind, and cenvieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. (Moroni 7:44-45)

ATL Wake wrote:

Ben McClintock wrote: It IS a corporation, the corporation of the Presiding Bishopric to be exact, and YES, Joseph DID give it that function. It's all in the D&C and History of the Church for anyone that wants to look.

If it is a corporation, then as a minority shareholder, I get to voice my opinion and not have people think I am speaking ill....

If I should not voice my opinion because the the Lord is in charge, then the institution should look like the Lord is in charge.


How strange to being chastised by the Lord for not living the Law of Consecration to operating the church by Babylonian means.