Church's new City Creek Mall Plaza Complex commercial on TV

[marc]

The same kind of attention and controversy was given to the construction of the new conference center. I remember it well. People called it a great and spacious building, too. After touring it once or twice, including the amazing roof top, and attending conference once, as well as participating in the men's choir, I can't disagree. It's all perspective. People see what they want to see, but seldom have insight to what happens behind the scenes.

p.s. Shouldn't this topic be in the News Forum?

[MrScience]

Article in Deseret News yesterday; in part:

SALT LAKE CITY — The Mormon church is attempting to remake downtown Salt Lake City by opening the shopping mall portion of a $2 billion mixed-use space that spans two city blocks.

Church partner and retail operator Taubman Centers Inc. expect 50,000 visitors on Thursday, when City Creek Center's nearly 90 stores open.

City Creek Center has outdoor walkways, retractable glass roofs and a winding creek. Waterfalls, fountains and a trout pond are part of the village-like development, which includes condominiums and is joined by a pedestrian bridge over Main Street.

The residential towers were built by City Creek Reserve Inc., a for-profit firm owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church is a multibillion-dollar organization with tentacles in business and real estate.

The church paid for City Creek Center with cash and says no member tithing was used. For the most part, it will be like other shopping malls, except that the stores close on Sundays — the church wanted the day of peace for its nearby Temple Square.

It will be operated like Taubman Centers' other upscale malls in Los Angeles and Denver, said Robert Taubman, chairman, president and CEO of the Bloomfield Hills, Mich.-based company. Two of the restaurants at the Salt Lake City mall will serve liquor, but there are no bars. Its anchors include Macy's, Nordstrom, Tiffany & Co. and the Swedish fashion chain H&M.

It struck me yesterday as I was watching the hype on City Creek, It is not "the gospel", or even "the church" that has developed it , but it is just an investment, made by investment monies of the corporation, built as a protection for the centerplace of the church. When viewed in relation to that of other cities, the skyline of SLC and it's integrety is being well preserved in a positive manner, with the church being a formost contributor. This development is a protection.........'perhaps' inspired.....to help guard the Lord's sacred square.

[kathyn]

I believe that the City Creek Complex was of divine inspiration and at some point we'll see the wisdom in the building of it. I do believe it will provide some "protection" of the temple and the Saints at some future time.

[reese]

I think what Col. is getting at is that this was a huge amount, an unbelievable amount of cash to lay out for shopping malls and luxury stores and apartments that the vast majority of saints can't afford. Is this really what the Lord inspired the prophets to do with the monies of the church? When the Lord told the young man to go and sell all you have and give it to the poor and come follow me, did he tell some one else go and take all the interest earned and build a shopping mall and skyscrapers for wealthy people? If you spent $50 million on a temple you could build 80 of them. Since 1985 the Church has given about $1.2 billion in humanitarian aid and $4 billion to a shopping mall. It makes no sense to me. I love the Brethren, I sincerely do, and I trust them but I do not understand this. This is again the one thing I can't figure out. Was down town SLC really so bad that a $4 billion investment was needed? I just trust that it is for the best and the church won't be held accountable for grinding on the faces of the poor or encouraging the material objectification of false gods. ) We can only hope... The one good thought is that they basically built a city in a short amount of time. Maybe this will come to some good practice to build the New Jerusalem. I just hope we will be allowed to build it.

I have to agree with you Eddie. The problem I have with this whole thing is -Who cares if no tithing money was used, that it only came from for-profit investments. We are the Lord's church, not a for-profit business! Any extra money we have, reguardless of where it came from, should be used to bless the poor and needy and to spread the gospel to the world.
It is pathetic that we have ONLY spent $1.2 billion in the last almost 30 years on humanitian aid and have just dropped $4 billion in the last 5years on a high end shopping mall and living space! The last time I read the parable of the talents all the returns realized on the money were the Lord's. I'm wondering when the returns on the Lord's tithing became investment money to be used on all kinds of money making projects, instead of going to the poor and needy.

Makes me think of what Moroni said about us after the Lord showed us to him.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that bmisery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

And yes he is talking about us, and we are polluting the holy church of God.

Nephi saw us too.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

Interesting that Nephi accuses us of robbing the poor because of our fine sanctuaries and fine clothing. And again yes Nephi is talking about us, as we are the only one crying all is well in Zion.

[7cylon7]

Will the mall have a Victoria's Secret there? That will certainly rattle the cages of some of the fuddie duddies that think LDS women should never greet their husbands in some skimpy lingerie on a date night.

Then again, just to be fair and "open minded" I am sure some Salt Lake men shop for lingerie for their husbands too. )

What you get Victoria Secret on date NIGHT? What is that?

[marc]

But our churches are NOT being adorned as such. Temples are still being built and the Lord's work is moving forward. It would be moving forward much faster if ALL members were paying their tithes and offerings and all members were current temple recommend holders. Before pointing fingers at the church, let's point fingers in our mirrors. Do we really know and understand more and have greater insight than our leaders? Will everyone be as bold at the judgment seat of Christ as we are on these forums?

[Col. Flagg]

Regardless of how the money was acquired to spend the 3-4 billion dollars on a shopping mall, this is the one thing that has bothered me about the church. The answer that I have heard over and over again from Bishop Burton is that it was needed to protect the integrity of down town Salt Lake City. That may be so but why spend the cash on a shopping mall? Why not say put in a lovely garden space? Shopping malls are poor investments.

I think what Col. is getting at is that this was a huge amount, an unbelievable amount of cash to lay out for shopping malls and luxury stores and apartments that the vast majority of saints can't afford. Is this really what the Lord inspired the prophets to do with the monies of the church? When the Lord told the young man to go and sell all you have and give it to the poor and come follow me, did he tell some one else go and take all the interest earned and build a shopping mall and skyscrapers for wealthy people? If you spent $50 million on a temple you could build 80 of them. Since 1985 the Church has given about $1.2 billion in humanitarian aid and $4 billion to a shopping mall. It makes no sense to me. I love the Brethren, I sincerely do, and I trust them but I do not understand this. This is again the one thing I can't figure out. Was down town SLC really so bad that a $4 billion investment was needed? I just trust that it is for the best and the church won't be held accountable for grinding on the faces of the poor or encouraging the material objectification of false gods. The one good thought is that they basically built a city in a short amount of time. Maybe this will come to some good practice to build the New Jerusalem. I just hope we will be allowed to build it.

Thank you Eddie... and amen!!

[natasha]

I believe that the City Creek Complex was of divine inspiration and at some point we'll see the wisdom in the building of it. I do believe it will provide some "protection" of the temple and the Saints at some future time.

Exactly, Kathyn...not to mention it will keep the area surrounding sacred ground (temple grounds, family history library, Church History museum, Church Headquarters, etc.) from going the way of so many inner cities in our country. Temple Square is one of the most visited "tourist attractions" in the U.S. For me, I'm grateful for the stewardship shown by our leaders.

[marc]

I believe that the City Creek Complex was of divine inspiration and at some point we'll see the wisdom in the building of it. I do believe it will provide some "protection" of the temple and the Saints at some future time.

Exactly, Kathyn...not to mention it will keep the area surrounding sacred ground (temple grounds, family history library, Church History museum, Church Headquarters, etc.) from going the way of so many inner cities in our country. Temple Square is one of the most visited "tourist attractions" in the U.S. For me, I'm grateful for the stewardship shown by our leaders.

I agree as well. I also know that the church ships tons and tons of food to people in need around the world and the church does it without media knowledge at that. And it would have more food and supplies to ship, if every one of its membership donated generously in fast offerings.

[Col. Flagg]

I think what Col. is getting at is that this was a huge amount, an unbelievable amount of cash to lay out for shopping malls and luxury stores and apartments that the vast majority of saints can't afford. Is this really what the Lord inspired the prophets to do with the monies of the church? When the Lord told the young man to go and sell all you have and give it to the poor and come follow me, did he tell some one else go and take all the interest earned and build a shopping mall and skyscrapers for wealthy people? If you spent $50 million on a temple you could build 80 of them. Since 1985 the Church has given about $1.2 billion in humanitarian aid and $4 billion to a shopping mall. It makes no sense to me. I love the Brethren, I sincerely do, and I trust them but I do not understand this. This is again the one thing I can't figure out. Was down town SLC really so bad that a $4 billion investment was needed? I just trust that it is for the best and the church won't be held accountable for grinding on the faces of the poor or encouraging the material objectification of false gods. ) We can only hope... The one good thought is that they basically built a city in a short amount of time. Maybe this will come to some good practice to build the New Jerusalem. I just hope we will be allowed to build it.

I have to agree with you Eddie. The problem I have with this whole thing is -Who cares if no tithing money was used, that it only came from for-profit investments. We are the Lord's church, not a for-profit business! Any extra money we have, reguardless of where it came from, should be used to bless the poor and needy and to spread the gospel to the world.
It is pathetic that we have ONLY spent $1.2 billion in the last almost 30 years on humanitian aid and have just dropped $4 billion in the last 5years on a high end shopping mall and living space! The last time I read the parable of the talents all the returns realized on the money were the Lord's. I'm wondering when the returns on the Lord's tithing became investment money to be used on all kinds of money making projects, instead of going to the poor and needy.

Makes me think of what Moroni said about us after the Lord showed us to him.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that bmisery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

And yes he is talking about us, and we are polluting the holy church of God.

Nephi saw us too.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

Interesting that Nephi accuses us of robbing the poor because of our fine sanctuaries and fine clothing. And again yes Nephi is talking about us, as we are the only one crying all is well in Zion.

+100! Great post Reese!!

[7cylon7]

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that bmisery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

And yes he is talking about us, and we are polluting the holy church of God.

Nephi saw us too.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

Interesting that Nephi accuses us of robbing the poor because of our fine sanctuaries and fine clothing. And again yes Nephi is talking about us, as we are the only one crying all is well in Zion.

I think this scripture is the reason why our churches look like. well they don't look so good to me. They are TOO small... .. .they have ugly carpet and that ugly brown wall rope wall paper, weaving stuff on them. Every single ward I have ever attended on Sunday the congregation goes into the OVERFLOW area. WHY? Can we not build a church building were all the WARD members can be in the chapel at the same time and not the gym? It might help the reverence of the meeting if I was not staring and the basketball hoop over my head. I mean really? I understand the scripture where they were adorning their churches with Gold and Silver to look pretty to the eye but do we really have to have churches that look so bland.

I know this is low low on the list but really. And my bad but I don't even want to go to those temples build in the early 80s. Those temples that look like Chicago. They were built during the late 70s recession. Maybe I need to repent but I would rather go to a temple that inspires me to think of heavenly things. Did not the Lord say to spare no expense when building a temple? I think he did because it was HIS HOUSE. So Temples like Oakland, SLC, Washington DC. (By the way why is Washington DC temple so big? Because it is in Washington?)

I know, I Know it is not about the outside because that is carnal man and natural man's view. It is all about the inside. However, I will say why do we were suits and ties to church? IS it really all about the inside? We all know that the OUTSIDE does affect what we do on the INSIDE.

I would like our churches to be big enough to do what we need it to do.

OKay my rant is over. How much is one of those condos overlooking temple square?

[reese]

But our churches are NOT being adorned as such. Temples are still being built and the Lord's work is moving forward. It would be moving forward much faster if ALL members were paying their tithes and offerings and all members were current temple recommend holders. Before pointing fingers at the church, let's point fingers in our mirrors. Do we really know and understand more and have greater insight than our leaders? Will everyone be as bold at the judgment seat of Christ as we are on these forums?

Coachmarc the members are the church, at least in theory if not legally. Everything I have said is a reflection on us. And the answer is not paying more tithing and getting more temple recommends. Nephi and Moroni are talking about the people already doing those things. The answer is repenting of our sins and false traditions and returning to Jesus Christ.

No our church buildings may not be finely adorned, but are we building and adorning fine sanctuaries? What is a sanctuary? Is it a building, and mall, a home, a business.....all of the above? Are we buying and selling and wearing fine clothing? I will be as bold at the judgment seat of Christ because all I am doing is repeating his own words!

I also know that the church ships tons and tons of food to people in need around the world and the church does it without media knowledge at that. And it would have more food and supplies to ship, if every one of its membership donated generously in fast offerings.

Yes we do ship tons and tons of food around the world, some without media knowledge even. But it is only to the amount of $1.2 billion since 1985, look it up on providentliving. Yes $1.2 billion is a lot of money, but not compared to $4 billion for a mall & billions of dollars on other investments as well.

[marc]

How much more food will the church ship, and how much more of the Lord's work will be financed with the return on those billion dollar investments? Are there investors and analysts here? My point is, good luck with the stones you're casting. Make sure they're not from the foundation that you're standing on.

[reese]

How much more food will the church ship, and how much more of the Lord's work will be financed with the return on those billion dollar investments?

Not much if they continue re-investing the money in the for-profit businesses the church owns.

[reese]

I'm sorry coachmarc. I realize I am being contentious here and I am going to stop. I just get so discusted when I read the scriptures condemnation of what we are doing.

[AshleyB]

I agree that based on the scriptures that it looks bad. I have a hard time seeing the justifications too. But, Im not worrying about it. Iv'e got a lot of other things to worry about. If it wasn't a righteous decision those people will have to stand at their own judgement bar and be held accountable for that. The Lord is JUST. I doubt that, that mall would still be standing after the judgments of the Lord are poured out. But I just think well maybe this investment will be helping to fund the building of Zion and it will turn out to be a good thing? One can only hope.

[shadow]

Yes $1.2 billion is a lot of money, but not compared to $4 billion for a mall & billions of dollars on other investments as well.

I haven't really cared enough to find out exactly how much was spent, but where do you get the 4 billion price tag from? I hear all sorts of numbers being tossed around. On a story I read today it said the cost was 1.5 billion.

"The $1.5 billion project, which includes more than 500 apartments and condominiums, was developed by City Creek Reserve Inc. — a for-profit real estate company owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Project partner Taubman Inc. of Bloomfield Hills, Mich., will operate the retail portion of the project." KSL.com

[marc]

I'm sorry coachmarc. I realize I am being contentious here and I am going to stop. I just get so discusted when I read the scriptures condemnation of what we are doing.

No worries, reese. I don't like contention either. I know that the BOM prophets speak to us--to ALL of us, even to the gentiles. There are two churches, as we all know, and while the prophets spoke about the church of the devil, I know that they also spoke to us as members. I know that we're not immune. Perhaps there is some truth to church investments, however, I trust that our leaders are very careful with their stewardships. As for the investors involved, one can only speculate what's in their hearts.

With love.

[Henmasher]

What a great thread :ymsick: . If we are to assume that the prophets are misusing the Lords monies than you would think it is safe to accuse Moroni and Nephi of their peoples destruction as well. How about Moses, wish he would have done what the smarter saints said to do #-o Who handled the tithing of their generations???? It is a far cry to blame the brethren or question their revelation and leadership direction and critique what is best for the church and the human race. Try accepting the beam in your own eye and express some faith in those He has chosen while accepting He didn't choose you. How is everybody enjoying their computers and internet today when people are dying, hungry, and saving up to walk to the temple? Thanks for another hypocritical thread col that stinks of unrighteouss judgement and is polluted with covenant breaking rhetoric :ymtongue:

PS before it is brought up the prophets are not infallible, but it is dangerous to judge before the outcome what judgements they make are of man or revelation from God

[Col. Flagg]

Question for those who support the construction of this $3 billion shopping mall plaza... how is it a part of the 4-fold mission of the church??? Does it perfect the Saints? Far from it. Does it proclaim the gospel? Hardly. Does it redeem the dead? Nope. Does it help the needy? Negative. Does it help 'preserve the sanctity' of the Salt Lake temple (as Bishop H. David Burton keeps stating to the media)? Just the opposite - a fancy, expensive, fine-apparel, fine-dining place like this frowns upon the poor and raises itself up in pride and money. IMHO, the tornado in 1999 that hit downtown Salt Lake was a warning shot over the bow by the Lord because of the church's obsession with worldly image, opinion and money and it would appear that it hasn't heeded that warning. Believe me, I would love to be dead wrong and way off base with my comments and feelings about this, but I have a hard time seeing our Lord and Savior up there going 'you know what we need... a luxury shopping mall in downtown Salt Lake where only the wealthier people and Saints can shop and eat'. =)) :ymsick:

[Col. Flagg]

What a great thread :ymsick: . If we are to assume that the prophets are misusing the Lords monies than you would think it is safe to accuse Moroni and Nephi of their peoples destruction as well. How about Moses, wish he would have done what the smarter saints said to do #-o Who handled the tithing of their generations???? It is a far cry to blame the brethren or question their revelation and leadership direction and critique what is best for the church and the human race. Try accepting the beam in your own eye and express some faith in those He has chosen while accepting He didn't choose you. How is everybody enjoying their computers and internet today when people are dying, hungry, and saving up to walk to the temple? Thanks for another hypocritical thread col that stinks of unrighteouss judgement and is polluted with covenant breaking rhetoric :ymtongue:

PS before it is brought up the prophets are not infallible, but it is dangerous to judge before the outcome what judgements they make are of man or revelation from God

We're all entitled to our own opinions and feelings about things Hen and this issue is no different. I happen to know MANY Saints (several in my own ward no less) who are wondering why the church spent $3 billion on a stinking shopping mall for downtown Salt Lake??? But you know what, we won't get one word about it from the church because they stopped being accountable to us members over 30 years ago with finances - we're just supposed to blindly trust them without questioning anything they do and if you do, well, you're an apostate. ) But like I've said - I would love nothing more than to be totally out of line and off-base with my opinion and ultimately found guilty of lacking faith... but right now, I think those of us concerned and upset about it have a legitimate right to be so because it LOOKS BAD! There is a reason we've had prophecies about Salt Lake being classed among the most wicked of cities in the last days... well, vanity certainly comes to mind.

[shadow]

Col. Flagg says 3 billion, Reese says 4 billion and KSL reports it's 1.5 billion. We can't even get the numbers right!

Anyway, it's probably no surprise that I disagree with schitzo man Col. Flagg (from MASH) and Reese.
Here's how I see it-
One of the for-profit corps of the church spent a lot of money buying up land around the Temple and church headquarters and built some well constructed buildings to go there which they then leased out to a partner who then subleases to stores. The church then collects rent on those buildings to help recoup it's investment while the church waits for all hell to break loose. Once that happens and all the stores close (which they will!!) the church is left with a huge property it can use for it's own purposes which in the millennium would consist of redeeming the dead etc. I think it's genius and shows the foresight of our leaders regarding future events and just how near those events are. But that's my opinion! I don't see it as a shopping mall for long.

[laronius]

From my perspective, the important thing is not what the church does with its money, but rather what we do because of it. If it only takes $3 billion for the Lord to divide the wheat from the tares, then that is money well spent in my book. I have a feeling that as time goes on there will be more and more policies and decisions come down from Salt Lake that will try our faith. This trial can only truly take place when reason is not a possible crutch to lean on. Then it will come down to whether or not we believe that the Lord leads us through his servants or not.

And he said unto me: Knowest though the reason they built the mall?

And I said unto him: I know that they are the Lord's chosen servants, nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

[Col. Flagg]

Col. Flagg says 3 billion, Reese says 4 billion and KSL reports it's 1.5 billion. We can't even get the numbers right!

Anyway, it's probably no surprise that I disagree with schitzo man Col. Flagg (from MASH) and Reese.
Here's how I see it-
One of the for-profit corps of the church spent a lot of money buying up land around the Temple and church headquarters and built some well constructed buildings to go there which they then leased out to a partner who then subleases to stores. The church then collects rent on those buildings to help recoup it's investment while the church waits for all hell to break loose. Once that happens and all the stores close (which they will!!) the church is left with a huge property it can use for it's own purposes which in the millennium would consist of redeeming the dead etc. I think it's genius and shows the foresight of our leaders regarding future events and just how near those events are. But that's my opinion! I don't see it as a shopping mall for long.

Is the church a church first... or a business? The corporate aspect of the church seems to be taking over the religious part - that's the concern here.

[shadow]

Is the church a church first... or a business? The corporate aspect of the church seems to be taking over the religious part - that's the concern here.

The church is whatever you make of it Col.! If you want it to assist your "religious" needs then it's there for you. If you want it to be worldly then it's there for you! You'll find what you're looking for.
If during GC in 2 weeks all the talks are focused on the shopping mall and the speakers encourage people to go to deseret first credit union to get a visa card then go blow it all at city creek then you may be correct, the business arm has taken over the religious part. But if that doesn't happen I would encourage you to reevaluate your "concern".