Church's new City Creek Mall Plaza Complex commercial on TV

[ATL Wake]

What was that darned principle of common consent again?

Fortunately, it is the principle of common consent, not the principle of unanimous consent.

My point is, if there is not unanimous consent, as you correctly note, then it is okay to have a difference of opinion and it's also okay for some to not consent to this project.

[Col. Flagg]

Let's go back to 1999 for a moment...



What did the tornado hit or damage during its brief existence?

1. The outdoor retailers summer market (many men in the church make the outdoors a second religion and hunt for sport)
2. Gay bars (no explanation needed there)
3. The Delta Center (many Saints also make basketball a religion and have been known to attend playoff games on Sunday)
4. Hotels (many Hotels in Salt Lake offer porn)
5. Restaurants (fine dining)
6. State government offices (no explanation needed there)
7. The new LDS conference center (was undergoing construction at the time - some consider it to be a 'great and spacious building')
8. The Avenues (ritzy part of Salt Lake where the rich live, including many GA's)

Of those 8, what does the new City Creek Center offer? Retail shopping, alcohol, expensive lodging, fancy eateries, a highly expensive complex constructed by the church (just like the conference center was) and you could say it's also 'ritzy'. Quite interesting. Was this tornado just a freak, random act of nature... or something more? I think that answer is obvious.

[ATL Wake]

Unless I am mistaken, part of any successful shopping mall include a large portion of clothing stores and places to purchase food ("to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry"). This shopping mall is merely a tool. The method in which it is used depends largely on the choices of those who shop there.

The City Creek Center will not be clothing the naked or feeding the hungry. The naked and hungry do not shop at Coach, Nordstroms, Tiffany's, Porsche, Rolex, or Texas de Brazil.

Go to their website and see how many times they use the words "luxury" and "fine quality".
http://www.shopcitycreekcenter.com/shopping" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Col. Flagg]

FWIW this place only generates a return if its tenants make profit.Profit in these places comes from stores charging exhorbitant prices

I haven't even gotten to that point yet - thanks for mentioning it Auss. :ymhug: Most of the retail businesses in this complex offer merchandise at exorbitant prices (as Aussie stated) - I'm sure the average person can't wait to walk in there and drop $50 for a turtle neck shirt or $100 for a pair of shoes. )

[jnjnelson]

What was that darned principle of common consent again?

Fortunately, it is the principle of common consent, not the principle of unanimous consent.

My point is, if there is not unanimous consent, as you correctly note, then it is okay to have a difference of opinion and it's also okay for some to not consent to this project.

Yes, it is okay, because the Lord's work and the Lord's methods will continue to progress and succeed without the help of those who dissent from His work and are opposed to His methods.

[jnjnelson]

…But why does the institution that is suppose to be providing spiritual nutrition offering temporal nutrition?

Better said, isn't the Melchezidek priesthood responsible for spiritual matters and the Aaronic Priesthood suppose to see to temporal matters?…

And why is the presiding High Priest in each of the wards of the Lord's church primarily responsible for assigning the resources of the bishop's storehouses?

[Mark]

This is where you and I part ways, Col...this goes beyond asking "WHY?" - this is openly declaring that this COULD NOT have been an inspired decision, (as clearly the Lord is NOT going to have to apologize to anyone, so you are declaring the other side of your if....then statement true. So much for no more evil speaking of the Lord's anointed

O.I., you know me better than that. Have I unequivocally stated that this was definitely NOT an inspired undertaking? No, in fact, in a few previous posts of mine, you'll see where I've said 'if' on a few occasions, so please do not put words into my mouth. And evil speaking of the Lord's annointed? Please. =; Heaven forbid any of us should express concerns about how the church just used $5 billion for a luxurious, fanciful shopping mall for the more well-to-do. 8-| I am surprised at how quick you are to cast judgment on someone so quickly for expressing alarm and asking questions over something like this - you're better than that. And please... tell me I'm dead wrong for equating the construction of the complex with these scriptures...

Mormon 8:37 - For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Ezek. 34: 8 - As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock

1 Nephi. 13: 7-8 - And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots; and the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.”

2 Nephi. 28: 13 (9-16) - They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

Okay my friend I will tell you that you are dead wrong. Your presumptuous innuendo in dishing out condemnation of the leaders of the church as complicit in robbing the poor and persecuting the meek and assisting in the building up of the great and abominable church of the devil because of their decisions to build this complex is so far off the deep end that I don't even know where to begin. You are actually assigning blame to the Church of Jesus Christ and its leaders for the neglect and suffering of the poor and needy because they built City Creek? Seriously Bro. you need a serious reality check here. If you don't see the danger in your attitudes you are either totally stupid or completely naive as to where this will eventually take you. I am dumbfounded that you do not see this for what it is; speaking ill of the Lords restored church and its current leadership. Wowzer. @-)

[moving2zion]

Just thinking and I haven't seen anything posted in here along this line of thought- But what about all of the folks that see a major financial crash coming. Their have been several prophecies to the effect. Someone in church headquarters could have had the fore sight to pump the cash into an area that is solid and can return the investment to the church. When paper is worthless and the government confiscates your digits like they just did last week to the catholic church, then it would behoove us all to have less in the bank where the feds can take it away. I see this as the presiding bishop has wisely placed the funds into hard assets. It will bring in income during hard times and the church will have future steady financial resources to bless the lives of the saints throughout the world.

[Alighieri]

I find the murmuring against the Brethren in this Post really quite shocking. Didn't you go to Priesthood last Sunday? Do you remember what the lesson was on? It was on sustaining your priesthood leaders. I think some rereading of last week's lesson is in order. It is really timely that that specific lesson comes up when some are having trouble seeing the Lord's wisdom behind the projects the Brethren initiate. I have been a casual reader of this forum for about a year, and quite frankly nothing has gotten me more fired up than to see good people starting to question the decisions the Brethren are making. George Albert Smith said, "The Adversary has not forgotten them [the Brethren], and one of the evidences to me of the divinity of the calling of these men is that evil men speak evil of them, and good men and good women speak well of them."

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/c ... talization" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the URL to the Church's website. Read the article and read what Apostle's and a BIshop with keys have said of this project.
Read what Bishop Burton said about the benefits coming from this project.

[Col. Flagg]

Okay my friend I will tell you that you are dead wrong. Your presumptuous innuendo in dishing out condemnation of the leaders of the church as complicit in robbing the poor and persecuting the meek and assisting in the building up of the great and abominable church of the devil because of their decisions to build this complex is so far off the deep end that I don't even know where to begin. You are actually assigning blame to the Church of Jesus Christ and its leaders for the neglect and suffering of the poor and needy because they built City Creek? Seriously Bro. you need a serious reality check here. If you don't see the danger in your attitudes you are either totally stupid or completely naive as to where this will eventually take you. I am dumbfounded that you do not see this for what it is; speaking ill of the Lords restored church and its current leadership. Wowzer. @-)

I'm sorry for the way I feel about this Mark, I really am, but in all honesty... $5 billion... for a luxury mall? Really? There aren't more noble, Christ-like and generous ways to use $5 billion, especially during a time when many are without work, under-employed, struggling, hungry, without shelter, etc.? $5 billion ain't chump change - that's $250 for every church member on earth (all 12 million of us)... for Macy's, Nordstroms, Tiffany's, etc., retail establishments that charge an arm and a leg for their merchandise? I'm sticking by my concerns here and I hope they aren't justified, I really do, however, what happens if my concerns are unfounded? Nothing. What happens if they are? Then I think what I posted above RE the 1999 tornado that hit downtown Salt Lake City might have just been a warm-up of things to come. And... why do you think Salt Lake City has been prophesied by former prophets to be classed as one of the most wicked cities in the last days? I'll tell you right now it has nothing to do with drive-by shootings, gang activity, murder or crime. Just sayin' 'bro'.

[Col. Flagg]

Just thinking and I haven't seen anything posted in here along this line of thought- But what about all of the folks that see a major financial crash coming. Their have been several prophecies to the effect. Someone in church headquarters could have had the fore sight to pump the cash into an area that is solid and can return the investment to the church. When paper is worthless and the government confiscates your digits like they just did last week to the catholic church, then it would behoove us all to have less in the bank where the feds can take it away. I see this as the presiding bishop has wisely placed the funds into hard assets. It will bring in income during hard times and the church will have future steady financial resources to bless the lives of the saints throughout the world.

Maybe - and like I've said... I won't cross the line and say this was an uninspired undertaking that was based on greed, image and worldly opinion, but it sure isn't something you'd expect our church to do when at the same time they're advising us as members to get out of debt, be thrifty, live modestly, help the poor and needy, to avoid materialism and vanity and to live within your means (many of the retail establishments are going to tempt people to make purchases on credit).

[Col. Flagg]

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/02/i-hav ... ery=vanity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is the condemnation we are under that President Benson speaks of regarding the Book of Mormon?

Robert E. Parsons, associate professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University and stake patriarch in the Orem Utah East Stake. In the April 1986 general conference, President Benson made two now oft-quoted statements: “Unless we read the Book of Mormon and give heed to its teachings, the Lord has stated in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants that the whole Church is under condemnation” and “In our day, the Lord has revealed the need to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church and all the children of Zion out from under condemnation—the scourge and judgment.” (Ensign, May 1986, pp. 5, 78.) Many members have wondered what that condemnation is.

It might be well to fix in our minds the meaning of the word condemnation. To be condemned is to be found guilty. It also means to be found unfit for service. It is interesting to note that a major teaching of the Book of Mormon is how we might be found “guiltless” before God when Christ stands to judge the world (3 Ne. 27:16) and how we might be fit servants in his kingdom (Mosiah 2:16–21).

A careful examination of the verses President Benson referred to in section 84 provides added insight for the thoughtful reader:

“And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

“Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

“And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

“And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written.” (D&C 84:54–57.)

As we read these verses and ask ourselves why we, as members of the Church, are under condemnation, certain words stand out—unbelief, treated lightly, vanity. What have we not believed? What have we treated lightly? What is our vanity?

Vanity - the excessive belief in one's own abilities or attractiveness to others; self-idolatry; rejecting God for the sake of one's own image; excessive pride in one's appearance, qualities, abilities, achievements, etc.; lacking real value; hollowness; worthlessness: the vanity of a selfish life; something worthless, trivial, or pointless.

[Col. Flagg]

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/10/faces ... ery=vanity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Costly apparel, class distinctions, and contention are only three of the many elements of pride found in the Book of Mormon that relate to our day.

Costly Apparel

Nephi identified the great and spacious building which his father saw in a dream to be the “vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men” (1 Ne. 12:18). He told us that pride and vanity are inseparably connected to this great building with no foundation.

Nephi’s younger brother Jacob chastised the Nephites for their vanity by saying, “Ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel” (Jacob 2:13). Jacob was not criticizing well-intentioned efforts to dress neatly but instead the haughty attitudes of those who become puffed up because of riches. He implied that pride based on outward appearance created a rationalization which allowed the Nephites to persecute their brethren “because ye suppose that ye are better than they” (Jacob 2:13).

In our day the costly apparel syndrome is identified by the term conspicuous consumption. The word conspicuous alludes to the visual side of vanity, the need to be seen or to be recognized. Consumption refers to that which we take in or that which we digest. Conspicuous consumption may be defined as that which we take to ourselves or that which becomes ours as motivated by the visual opinions of our society. By its very definition, the person trapped by conspicuous consumption may be focused on the opinions of others because what is “in” today may be “out” tomorrow. Vanity then becomes its own punishment because there is never time to be satisfied, because the eyes and opinions of others can turn so quickly to embrace someone else. This person must have a “great and spacious” wardrobe that gives a wide variety of choices for today while at the same time giving room to expand in anticipation of tomorrow’s change in fashion in order to prevent the judgment of wearing something out of style.

For us, the disease which encompassed the Zoramites takes on more than clothing; it can include cars, houses, boats, diplomas, and anything else that has a foundation in which the need for the approval of others carries more weight than the need to be accepted by God. President Benson referred to this problem in general conference four decades ago: “Are not many of us status-seekers—measuring the worth of a man by the size of his bank account, his house, his automobile? … This is a sad commentary on a civilization that has given to mankind the greatest achievement and progress ever known. But it is an even sadder commentary on those of us who call ourselves Christians, who thus betray the ideals given to us by the Son of God himself.

[paper face]

The advertising on billboards for the new mall here in Salt Lake appeals to the natural man.

[HeirofNumenor]

So the LDS are the Gentiles saying "a bible a bible we don't need any more bible"

[paper face]

So the LDS are the Gentiles saying "a bible a bible we don't need any more bible"

Terryl Givens in his book By The Hand of Mormon cites a study that shows that the Book of Mormon was only cited in about 6% of General Conference talks before ETB's "flood the earth" talk in 1988.

If the condemnation from Section 84 has never been lifted then we are still under it. Even now the Church touts the fact that we believe in the Bible first and the Book of Mormon is always mentioned second, as if it's the red headed step-child.

[Squally]

.

[Squally]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor,

Nephi and Mormon were not speaking to Babylon, their audience is the readers of the BOM. Let's be very clear, 2 Nephi 28 is directed to us. Mormon was speaking to us. If you miss that, you miss most of the BOM.

+100

I agree ATL. I guess i find it interesting how people do not see who the BOM was written for? The warnings are for those who read them and are under covenant to follow the Lord. The condemnation is lifted when we actually start believing and seeking what the Book of Mormon teaches instead of casting it aside. We need to stop assuming it is a warning to "other" people while we tell each other that we are so blessed, priviledged, and more righteous. We need to cast off our pride and vanity. Not build it up.

[patriotsaint]

sigh. here we go again.a test. yeah.thats what god does. withholds charity from the needy to blow the money on an edifice so as to test the worthiness of those who contributed the money in the first place. im sorry i dont buy it.

pulling that scripture IS valid in the discussion on the conference centre. certainly if the lord wants a $320m conference centre he can have it. it is HIS money

but lets not kid ourselves. this is buying a fancy rug for the floor of the house next door.

if he wanted a multi billion dollar building dedicated to mammon,fine. it just means my understanding of who he is and what his message is, is different than his. for some here that is the best they can cling to,along with such sad comments like "its not my area of stewardship I won't comment". sorry, this is a LAY ministry church. we ALL serve, we ALL work.

it is the LORDS church,not a church of a few privileged people with consistent surnames

Read my post before commenting Aussie. I said I don't know why the mall was built, but that it may be a test for some of the saints. It apparently is a test for you and others on this thread who can't resist criticizing.

Also your notion that because we all serve and all work, we have the right to judge those outside our stewardship is nonsense and has no basis in scripture. You remember the whole beam and mote idea? Or the whole, "he who is without sin cast the first stone" idea? If you don't like the Savior's teaching on the subject maybe the words of Joseph Smith will strike a chord?

If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven, and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours—for charity covereth a multitude of sins.
(History of the Church, 4:445).

[Juliette]

sigh. here we go again.a test. yeah.thats what god does. withholds charity from the needy to blow the money on an edifice so as to test the worthiness of those who contributed the money in the first place. im sorry i dont buy it.

pulling that scripture IS valid in the discussion on the conference centre. certainly if the lord wants a $320m conference centre he can have it. it is HIS money

but lets not kid ourselves. this is buying a fancy rug for the floor of the house next door.

if he wanted a multi billion dollar building dedicated to mammon,fine. it just means my understanding of who he is and what his message is, is different than his. for some here that is the best they can cling to,along with such sad comments like "its not my area of stewardship I won't comment". sorry, this is a LAY ministry church. we ALL serve, we ALL work.

it is the LORDS church,not a church of a few privileged people with consistent surnames

Read my post before commenting Aussie. I said I don't know why the mall was built, but that it may be a test for some of the saints. It apparently is a test for you and others on this thread who can't resist criticizing.

Also your notion that because we all serve and all work, we have the right to judge those outside our stewardship is nonsense and has no basis in scripture. You remember the whole beam and mote idea? Or the whole, "he who is without sin cast the first stone" idea? If you don't like the Savior's teaching on the subject maybe the words of Joseph Smith will strike a chord?

If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven, and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours—for charity covereth a multitude of sins.
(History of the Church, 4:445).

:ymapplause: :ymapplause:

[Sariel]

I'm not sure why we can't express concern over the mall without being apostate. The apostles themselves have said they are not inspired in all the work they do. Sometimes the Lord blesses them, but other times they are left to work it out on their own. Hopefully they make the right decisions, but I'm sure it's easy to fall back on worldly training and views to make those decisions, especially when GA advisers can be more professional than spiritual. So I don't think it is a given that this whole project is inspired, and I can still think the prophet and apostles are prophets and apostles.

Also, let's not be so quick to remove ourselves from the warnings in the Book of Mormon. The church is not immune.

[ATL Wake]

And why is the presiding High Priest in each of the wards of the Lord's church primarily responsible for assigning the resources of the bishop's storehouses?

That's a very good question worth pondering.

[ATL Wake]

So the LDS are the Gentiles saying "a bible a bible we don't need any more bible"

A Manual! A Manual! We have got a Manual, and there cannot be any more Manual.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Manual; and it shall proceed forth from the the Holy Correlation Committee...

[ATL Wake]

Mosiah 11
1 And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father.
2 For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart…
3 And he laid a atax of one fifth part of all they possessed, …
4 And all this did he take to asupport himself … thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.
5 For he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new aones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts.
6 Yea, and thus they were supported in their laziness, and in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms, by the taxes which king Noah had put upon his people; thus did the people labor exceedingly to support iniquity.
7 Yea, and they also became idolatrous, because they were deceived by the vain and flattering words of the king and priests; for they did speak flattering things unto them. (How often do we flatter our leaders by singing how grateful we are for them?
8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of aprecious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;
9 And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine wood and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things.
10 And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of the atemple, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass.
11 And the seats which were set apart for the high priests, which were above all the other seats, he did ornament with pure gold; and he caused a breastwork to be built before them, that they might rest their bodies and their arms upon while they should speak lying and vain words to his people.
12 And it came to pass that he built a tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land ofShemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; and he could even look over all the land round about.
13 And it came to pass that he caused many buildings to be built in the land Shilom; and he caused a great tower to be built on the hill north of the land Shilom, which had been a resort for the children of Nephi at the time they bfled out of the land; and thus he did do with the riches which he obtained by the taxation of his people.
14 And it came to pass that he placed his heart upon his riches,

This account is worth pondering. Why did Mormon include it?

Why would the Lord need to send Abinidi? Couldn't He have just called leaders who would not lead the Nephites astray?

I'm really glad the Lord has blessed us to not have to discern where our leaders take us.

[ATL Wake]

Mosiah 12
25 And now Abinadi said unto them: Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people, and to understand the spirit of prophesying, and yet desire to know of me what these things mean?

26 I say unto you, wo be unto you for perverting the ways of the Lord! For if ye understand these things ye have not taught them; therefore, ye have perverted the ways of the Lord.

27 Ye have not applied your ahearts to bunderstanding; therefore, ye have not been wise. Therefore, what teach ye this people?

28 And they said: We teach the [the Doctrine of Christ].

29 And again he said unto them: If ye teach the [the Doctrine of Christ] why do ye not keep it? Why do ye set your hearts upon riches? Why do ye commit whoredoms and spend your strength with harlots, yea, and cause this people to commit sin, that the Lord has cause to send me to prophesy against this people, yea, even a great evil against this people?