LDS Freedom Forum

Fair amount has been discussed recently concerning Brigham Young, polygamy, corporate church, etc etc etc.

Some of this has originated from a blog called Pure Mormonism published by guy named Alan Waterman.

He professes to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....but he seems to resonate with the RLDS groups and they quote him or promote his blog posts quite frequently.

I've taken issue with some of his posts (like this one - http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... on#p242333" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Here are a few little snipits as examples -

Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment.

http://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’m firmly devoted to most of the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ygamy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see numerous similarities between what he has posted and the views of several late forum members concerning polygamy as well as Brigham Young....

With the obvious exception of Boyd K. Packer, none of these men is inherently evil

...

Exactly. It's not so much the people within the system, it is the system itself. This Church is a corporation. It is chartered as a corporation, and it behaves like a corporation. Before they were called to their positions of leadership within the Church, most of these men made their livings as lawyers and businessmen in the corporate world. Not in the last hundred years can I think of an actual theologian who has been invited to join their ranks. They are in these positions because the talents and skills they developed on the outside are needed on the inside

....

In 1837 Joseph Smith taught that tithing meant a mere 2 percent of one's net worth, after debts were paid. That was back when we had a church.

Somehow over time the corporation has convinced us that we should hand over to it 10 percent of everything before expenses, and some believe that includes money received as birthday gifts. Corporate spokesmen have even hinted from the pulpit recently that some of us should consider turning over 20 percent to them.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... d-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...I personally find his articles carefully crafted and what I consider insidious at efforts to develop cracks in people's testimonies as well as a sprinkling of new age philosophy.

He pushes a lot of works (books) by Richard and Pamela Price of Price Publishing Company - a nonprofit corporation dedicated to the preservation and publication of materials supporting Jesus Christ and His true Gospel, which was restored by Him through His servant, Joseph Smith, Jr. and continued by Him in the Reorganization of 1860 through His servant Joseph Smith III. Richard grew up in Idaho and left in 1950 to go back to Missouri (excommunicated???).

Their (well Richard really) works are questionable at best in terms of references and accurate information. Obviously they have a bias and have heavily promoted the basic idea that polygamy stemmed from Brigham's Cochranite Connections via missionary work he did among Jacob Cochranite and entourage.
http://olivercowdery.com/gathering/2000JSFP.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...including disagreements with RLDS church historian Richard P. Howard over Joseph's participation in polygamy -

How the Latter Day Saints Were Betrayed By Men Nearest the Prophet by Richard Price
http://hopeofzion.com/topic/2722/The-Po ... hard-Price" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...despite the complete collapse of the RLDS church (so much for the stone rolling down the mountain)....he clings to the old beliefs -

The RLDS Church Is Still Alive by Richard Price
http://restorationbookstore.org/article ... -alive.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Price advised the Old School Saints not to resign from the RLDS Church, but to await the opportunity to help return the RLDS Church to its traditional doctrines and practices. Over the years, Price has remained optimistic that this will eventually happen.

A majority of the local schismatic congregations established by Old School Saints followed Richard Price's strategy. Outsiders have often thought of Price as the leader of the Restoration Branch Movement, because his publications on the subject were early, frequent, widely circulated, and certainly influential. But he has never been the pastor of a Restoration Branch or held any formal leadership position in the Restoration Branch Movement. He has been strongly criticized both by people who have remained in the RLDS Church and by a variety of Restoration Branch members.

RLDS Church Historian Richard P. Howard characterizes Saints at the Crossroads as a "bitterly angry book" whose style "sacrificed truth and accuracy to the rage of its author." W. B. ("Pat") Spillman terms Price a "self-appointed strategist of the fundamentalist cause" whose "view is no doubt extreme, and stated more for its propaganda effect than for serious analysis."

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... N03_87.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....and this little piece below is especially ironic in the current day and age (325AD First Council of Nicaea - anyone???) -

In the long run, the difficulty for the independent branches will be the need to eventually create a general Church structure in conformity with the requirements of the RLDS Doctrine and Covenants. A major obstacle will be achieving agreement on the identity of who God has called to be the true Prophet, Seer, and Revelator for the Church, divinely commissioned to set the Church in order in the aftermath of the "liberal heresies." Unfortunately, it appears to be difficult for a large group of men to achieve consensus regarding the thoughts of God.

...to my knowledge "Elder Richard Price" was booted out of the RLDS faith (now Community of Christ) for this -

WCC packet: information about the RLDS Hierarchy's affiliation with the World Council of Churches, the National Council of Churchs, and their subdivisions
http://books.google.com/books/about/WCC ... VOPQAACAAJ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....and is basically on his own now in Independence MO...
http://restorationbookstore.org/location.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...here's one of his subscribers - The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of Independence MO
http://www.theremnantchurch.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The effort to get a unanimous quorum of Seventies, however, failed; and on October 1, 1989, a meeting of only five Seventies convened. All five agreed that the Church needed to be "set in order," which, they affirmed, meant they were "unanimous." The result was the formal organization of the "Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" in 1991.

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... N03_87.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyways....since much of this basic material put out by Richard Price has been heavily pushed here by a few individuals that have been critical of church leadership as well as declaring that the 1st seven presidents of the church were fallen or apostate before God....I post this for a little look behind the scenes and for an understanding about where much of this material is originating from (whether correct or incorrect). I hope its useful.

Thanks Jason. I know the feel I get when I read the posts in question, but this is the background. I always appreciate your digging and research. Well done.

There is a direct correlation between political activism and adhering to modern day apostles and prophets. The more extreme and radical one is towards a political party/ideology/candidate (whether it's from the right or left) the more unbalanced we will become. If one continues along this path, deception is almost inevitable as they align themselves with so called "active members" of the church who construct the same false doctrine in order to support their political philosophy. There are a multitude on this forum who indirectly allude to the notion that our current leaders have led the church astray. I strongly believe that this is more likely to happen on this "lds forum" more so than others because of the predominant political philosophy. In the words of Elder Maxwell, "These are things as they really are". I'm expecting resentment from these statements, but I simply don't care anymore. We are defenders of the faith and have made solemn covenants to build the Kingdom of God above everything else. This includes calling out potential apostates who question the leadership of the church.

The following address by Stephen E. Robinson perfectly lays out this deception....

If Satan can’t intimidate us with physical trials, he’ll sometimes try to fool us with substitute programs. He would like us to invest our time, talent, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often, these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. The deception comes in giving them a higher priority than our covenants. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow “alternate voices.”

These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the wrong causes, and they don’t perceive their shifting loyalties as unfaithfulness. Generally, they do not feel that they are rejecting Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways according to new standards and values. Consequently, their original commitments take a back seat to their new agenda. But the bottom line is still that they couldn’t be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn’t endure.

Again and again the Lord has warned the Church about following other voices. (See, for example, D&C 43:1–6.) Right now, there are many alternate voices vying for the attention of the Saints—social voices, intellectual voices, political voices, and other voices. In our premortal life, all of us rejected Satan’s persuasions to subscribe to a plan alternate to the Father’s. Now in mortality, we must do it again. If we are to endure, we must avoid alternate religious “special interest” groups.

I know a man who is going through a difficult time. He is politically intense and is particularly worried about what he sees as events leading up to the end of the world. He sees conspiracies in government and society, and he can’t understand why the Church isn’t as intense and as concerned as he is about these perceived threats. He spends a great deal of time trying to warn other members of the Church whom he believes to be asleep, and he privately wonders if some in leadership positions aren’t also asleep. Basically, his thinking runs like this: “My Church and my politics are telling me two different things, and I know that my politics are true … so there must be something wrong with the Church.” He does not consider the other logical possibility, nor does he recognize the reversal of loyalty evident in his thinking.

There may be some truth in some things he says, but that is not the point. The point is that he is listening to other voices and has transferred his highest loyalty to programs other than the Lord’s. Tragically, his politics have become the idol to which all else in his life must bow—even his commitment to the Church.

For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Some protection from the hazard of deception may be found in the principle of “more or less”: “And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

“And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.” (D&C 93:24–25; see also 3 Ne. 11:39–40; 3 Ne. 18:13–15; D&C 10:67–68; D&C 98:6–7.)

In the context of the gospel, truth is what God has actually said, what he actually directs, what he actually requires—no more and no less. On a strait and narrow path (see D&C 132:22), it doesn’t matter whether we fall off to the right or to the left, we are in trouble either way. It doesn’t matter whether we are “liberals” or “conservatives,” whether we believe “too little” or “too much”—that is, if Satan can’t get us to abandon the principles of the gospel, he is content that we should live them obsessively or as fanatics. One is less than the will of the Lord; the other adds human requirements to his will. Either puts us in the territory of the wicked one. There are those today who are embarrassed that God and his servants have said so much on some things and who go about trying to discredit the Brethren and neutralize the revelations and commandments. We have others who are embarrassed that God and his servants have not said more on other things and who go about preaching principles and programs the Lord has not revealed. One takes words out of God’s mouth; the other puts them in. Each preaches a “new, improved” gospel inspired by that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning, the very first alternate voice.

It requires discipline to embrace as gospel and to teach as gospel exactly what the Lord has revealed, no more and no less, and to avoid revising the gospel to suit ourselves. But those who can do it will know things as they really are (see Jacob 4:13) and will avoid deception.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/10/endur ... d?lang=eng


May I also suggest "Loyalty" by Gordon B. Hinkley:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... ry=loyalty

Rand wrote:Thanks Jason. I know the feel I get when I read the posts in question, but this is the background. I always appreciate your digging and research. Well done.

Thank you Rand....a bit rambling in nature but I do love to try to get to the source of the matter!

Jason wrote:Fair amount has been discussed recently concerning Brigham Young, polygamy, corporate church, etc etc etc.

Some of this has originated from a blog called Pure Mormonism published by guy named Alan Waterman.

He professes to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....but he seems to resonate with the RLDS groups and they quote him or promote his blog posts quite frequently.

I've taken issue with some of his posts (like this one - http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... on#p242333" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Here are a few little snipits as examples -

Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment.

http://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’m firmly devoted to most of the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ygamy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see numerous similarities between what he has posted and the views of several late forum members concerning polygamy as well as Brigham Young....

With the obvious exception of Boyd K. Packer, none of these men is inherently evil

...

Exactly. It's not so much the people within the system, it is the system itself. This Church is a corporation. It is chartered as a corporation, and it behaves like a corporation. Before they were called to their positions of leadership within the Church, most of these men made their livings as lawyers and businessmen in the corporate world. Not in the last hundred years can I think of an actual theologian who has been invited to join their ranks. They are in these positions because the talents and skills they developed on the outside are needed on the inside

....

In 1837 Joseph Smith taught that tithing meant a mere 2 percent of one's net worth, after debts were paid. That was back when we had a church.

Somehow over time the corporation has convinced us that we should hand over to it 10 percent of everything before expenses, and some believe that includes money received as birthday gifts. Corporate spokesmen have even hinted from the pulpit recently that some of us should consider turning over 20 percent to them.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... d-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...I personally find his articles carefully crafted and what I consider insidious at efforts to develop cracks in people's testimonies as well as a sprinkling of new age philosophy.

He pushes a lot of works (books) by Richard and Pamela Price of Price Publishing Company - a nonprofit corporation dedicated to the preservation and publication of materials supporting Jesus Christ and His true Gospel, which was restored by Him through His servant, Joseph Smith, Jr. and continued by Him in the Reorganization of 1860 through His servant Joseph Smith III. Richard grew up in Idaho and left in 1950 to go back to Missouri (excommunicated???).

Their (well Richard really) works are questionable at best in terms of references and accurate information. Obviously they have a bias and have heavily promoted the basic idea that polygamy stemmed from Brigham's Cochranite Connections via missionary work he did among Jacob Cochranite and entourage.
http://olivercowdery.com/gathering/2000JSFP.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...including disagreements with RLDS church historian Richard P. Howard over Joseph's participation in polygamy -

How the Latter Day Saints Were Betrayed By Men Nearest the Prophet by Richard Price
http://hopeofzion.com/topic/2722/The-Po ... hard-Price" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...despite the complete collapse of the RLDS church (so much for the stone rolling down the mountain)....he clings to the old beliefs -

The RLDS Church Is Still Alive by Richard Price
http://restorationbookstore.org/article ... -alive.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Price advised the Old School Saints not to resign from the RLDS Church, but to await the opportunity to help return the RLDS Church to its traditional doctrines and practices. Over the years, Price has remained optimistic that this will eventually happen.

A majority of the local schismatic congregations established by Old School Saints followed Richard Price's strategy. Outsiders have often thought of Price as the leader of the Restoration Branch Movement, because his publications on the subject were early, frequent, widely circulated, and certainly influential. But he has never been the pastor of a Restoration Branch or held any formal leadership position in the Restoration Branch Movement. He has been strongly criticized both by people who have remained in the RLDS Church and by a variety of Restoration Branch members.

RLDS Church Historian Richard P. Howard characterizes Saints at the Crossroads as a "bitterly angry book" whose style "sacrificed truth and accuracy to the rage of its author." W. B. ("Pat") Spillman terms Price a "self-appointed strategist of the fundamentalist cause" whose "view is no doubt extreme, and stated more for its propaganda effect than for serious analysis."

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... N03_87.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....and this little piece below is especially ironic in the current day and age (325AD First Council of Nicaea - anyone???) -

In the long run, the difficulty for the independent branches will be the need to eventually create a general Church structure in conformity with the requirements of the RLDS Doctrine and Covenants. A major obstacle will be achieving agreement on the identity of who God has called to be the true Prophet, Seer, and Revelator for the Church, divinely commissioned to set the Church in order in the aftermath of the "liberal heresies." Unfortunately, it appears to be difficult for a large group of men to achieve consensus regarding the thoughts of God.

...to my knowledge "Elder Richard Price" was booted out of the RLDS faith (now Community of Christ) for this -

WCC packet: information about the RLDS Hierarchy's affiliation with the World Council of Churches, the National Council of Churchs, and their subdivisions
http://books.google.com/books/about/WCC ... VOPQAACAAJ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....and is basically on his own now in Independence MO...
http://restorationbookstore.org/location.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...here's one of his subscribers - The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints out of Independence MO
http://www.theremnantchurch.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The effort to get a unanimous quorum of Seventies, however, failed; and on October 1, 1989, a meeting of only five Seventies convened. All five agreed that the Church needed to be "set in order," which, they affirmed, meant they were "unanimous." The result was the formal organization of the "Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" in 1991.

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... N03_87.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyways....since much of this basic material put out by Richard Price has been heavily pushed here by a few individuals that have been critical of church leadership as well as declaring that the 1st seven presidents of the church were fallen or apostate before God....I post this for a little look behind the scenes and for an understanding about where much of this material is originating from (whether correct or incorrect). I hope its useful.

I agree with you Jason

That blog is filled with an agenda not friendly to the Gospel of Christ

Good / interesting post Jason.

It is painfully obvious to me that there are wolves on this site and thier sole purpose is to damage the testimonies of the weak of the fold. I just hope everyone of the fold recognize who the wolves are.

kingbmm wrote:There is a direct correlation between political activism and adhering to modern day apostles. The more extreme and radical one is towards a political party/ideology/candidate (whether it's from the right or left) the more unbalanced we will become. If one continues along this path, deception is almost inevitable as they align themselves with so called "active members" of the church who construct the same false doctrine in order to support their political philosophy. There are a multitude on this forum who indirectly allude to the notion that our current leaders have led the church astray. I strongly believe that this is more likely to happen on this "lds forum" more so than others because of the predominant political philosophy. In the words of Elder Maxwell, "These are things as they really are". I'm expecting resentment from these statements, but I simply don't care anymore. We are defenders of the faith and have made solemn covenants to build the Kingdom of God above everything else. This includes calling out potential apostates who question the leadership of the church.

The following address by Stephen E. Robinson perfectly lays out this deception....

If Satan can’t intimidate us with physical trials, he’ll sometimes try to fool us with substitute programs. He would like us to invest our time, talent, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often, these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. The deception comes in giving them a higher priority than our covenants. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow “alternate voices.”

These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the wrong causes, and they don’t perceive their shifting loyalties as unfaithfulness. Generally, they do not feel that they are rejecting Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways according to new standards and values. Consequently, their original commitments take a back seat to their new agenda. But the bottom line is still that they couldn’t be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn’t endure.

Again and again the Lord has warned the Church about following other voices. (See, for example, D&C 43:1–6.) Right now, there are many alternate voices vying for the attention of the Saints—social voices, intellectual voices, political voices, and other voices. In our premortal life, all of us rejected Satan’s persuasions to subscribe to a plan alternate to the Father’s. Now in mortality, we must do it again. If we are to endure, we must avoid alternate religious “special interest” groups.

I know a man who is going through a difficult time. He is politically intense and is particularly worried about what he sees as events leading up to the end of the world. He sees conspiracies in government and society, and he can’t understand why the Church isn’t as intense and as concerned as he is about these perceived threats. He spends a great deal of time trying to warn other members of the Church whom he believes to be asleep, and he privately wonders if some in leadership positions aren’t also asleep. Basically, his thinking runs like this: “My Church and my politics are telling me two different things, and I know that my politics are true … so there must be something wrong with the Church.” He does not consider the other logical possibility, nor does he recognize the reversal of loyalty evident in his thinking.

There may be some truth in some things he says, but that is not the point. The point is that he is listening to other voices and has transferred his highest loyalty to programs other than the Lord’s. Tragically, his politics have become the idol to which all else in his life must bow—even his commitment to the Church.

For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Some protection from the hazard of deception may be found in the principle of “more or less”: “And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

“And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.” (D&C 93:24–25; see also 3 Ne. 11:39–40; 3 Ne. 18:13–15; D&C 10:67–68; D&C 98:6–7.)

In the context of the gospel, truth is what God has actually said, what he actually directs, what he actually requires—no more and no less. On a strait and narrow path (see D&C 132:22), it doesn’t matter whether we fall off to the right or to the left, we are in trouble either way. It doesn’t matter whether we are “liberals” or “conservatives,” whether we believe “too little” or “too much”—that is, if Satan can’t get us to abandon the principles of the gospel, he is content that we should live them obsessively or as fanatics. One is less than the will of the Lord; the other adds human requirements to his will. Either puts us in the territory of the wicked one. There are those today who are embarrassed that God and his servants have said so much on some things and who go about trying to discredit the Brethren and neutralize the revelations and commandments. We have others who are embarrassed that God and his servants have not said more on other things and who go about preaching principles and programs the Lord has not revealed. One takes words out of God’s mouth; the other puts them in. Each preaches a “new, improved” gospel inspired by that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning, the very first alternate voice.

It requires discipline to embrace as gospel and to teach as gospel exactly what the Lord has revealed, no more and no less, and to avoid revising the gospel to suit ourselves. But those who can do it will know things as they really are (see Jacob 4:13) and will avoid deception.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/10/endur ... d?lang=eng


May I also suggest "Loyalty" by Gordon B. Hinkley:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... ry=loyalty

Kingbmm, others may not agree, I do whole heartedly. I think you are right on. What you shared felt really good to me, or as JS used to say, it tastes good to me. Thanks for sharing these excellent comments.

durangout wrote: It is painfully obvious to me that there are wolves on this site and their sole purpose is to damage the testimonies of the weak of the fold. I just hope everyone of the fold recognize who the wolves are.

That's true but I also believe some of the wolves honestly think they're just real smart sheep!

You're welcome Rand, thanks for listening

shadow wrote:

durangout wrote: It is painfully obvious to me that there are wolves on this site and their sole purpose is to damage the testimonies of the weak of the fold. I just hope everyone of the fold recognize who the wolves are.

That's true but I also believe some of the wolves honestly think they're just real smart sheep!

I think I'm a pretty smart sheep (a character flaw, I know) but I don't try to lead anyone astray. (I assume your comment was directed to me?)

kingbmm wrote:There is a direct correlation between political activism and adhering to modern day apostles and prophets. The more extreme and radical one is towards a political party/ideology/candidate (whether it's from the right or left) the more unbalanced we will become. If one continues along this path, deception is almost inevitable as they align themselves with so called "active members" of the church who construct the same false doctrine in order to support their political philosophy. There are a multitude on this forum who indirectly allude to the notion that our current leaders have led the church astray. I strongly believe that this is more likely to happen on this "lds forum" more so than others because of the predominant political philosophy. In the words of Elder Maxwell, "These are things as they really are". I'm expecting resentment from these statements, but I simply don't care anymore. We are defenders of the faith and have made solemn covenants to build the Kingdom of God above everything else. This includes calling out potential apostates who question the leadership of the church.

The following address by Stephen E. Robinson perfectly lays out this deception....

If Satan can’t intimidate us with physical trials, he’ll sometimes try to fool us with substitute programs. He would like us to invest our time, talent, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often, these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. The deception comes in giving them a higher priority than our covenants. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow “alternate voices.”

These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the wrong causes, and they don’t perceive their shifting loyalties as unfaithfulness. Generally, they do not feel that they are rejecting Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways according to new standards and values. Consequently, their original commitments take a back seat to their new agenda. But the bottom line is still that they couldn’t be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn’t endure.

Again and again the Lord has warned the Church about following other voices. (See, for example, D&C 43:1–6.) Right now, there are many alternate voices vying for the attention of the Saints—social voices, intellectual voices, political voices, and other voices. In our premortal life, all of us rejected Satan’s persuasions to subscribe to a plan alternate to the Father’s. Now in mortality, we must do it again. If we are to endure, we must avoid alternate religious “special interest” groups.

I know a man who is going through a difficult time. He is politically intense and is particularly worried about what he sees as events leading up to the end of the world. He sees conspiracies in government and society, and he can’t understand why the Church isn’t as intense and as concerned as he is about these perceived threats. He spends a great deal of time trying to warn other members of the Church whom he believes to be asleep, and he privately wonders if some in leadership positions aren’t also asleep. Basically, his thinking runs like this: “My Church and my politics are telling me two different things, and I know that my politics are true … so there must be something wrong with the Church.” He does not consider the other logical possibility, nor does he recognize the reversal of loyalty evident in his thinking.

There may be some truth in some things he says, but that is not the point. The point is that he is listening to other voices and has transferred his highest loyalty to programs other than the Lord’s. Tragically, his politics have become the idol to which all else in his life must bow—even his commitment to the Church.

For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Some protection from the hazard of deception may be found in the principle of “more or less”: “And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

“And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.” (D&C 93:24–25; see also 3 Ne. 11:39–40; 3 Ne. 18:13–15; D&C 10:67–68; D&C 98:6–7.)

In the context of the gospel, truth is what God has actually said, what he actually directs, what he actually requires—no more and no less. On a strait and narrow path (see D&C 132:22), it doesn’t matter whether we fall off to the right or to the left, we are in trouble either way. It doesn’t matter whether we are “liberals” or “conservatives,” whether we believe “too little” or “too much”—that is, if Satan can’t get us to abandon the principles of the gospel, he is content that we should live them obsessively or as fanatics. One is less than the will of the Lord; the other adds human requirements to his will. Either puts us in the territory of the wicked one. There are those today who are embarrassed that God and his servants have said so much on some things and who go about trying to discredit the Brethren and neutralize the revelations and commandments. We have others who are embarrassed that God and his servants have not said more on other things and who go about preaching principles and programs the Lord has not revealed. One takes words out of God’s mouth; the other puts them in. Each preaches a “new, improved” gospel inspired by that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning, the very first alternate voice.

It requires discipline to embrace as gospel and to teach as gospel exactly what the Lord has revealed, no more and no less, and to avoid revising the gospel to suit ourselves. But those who can do it will know things as they really are (see Jacob 4:13) and will avoid deception.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/10/endur ... d?lang=eng


May I also suggest "Loyalty" by Gordon B. Hinkley:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... ry=loyalty

Excellent.

Jason, Sorry I haven't gotten around to it, but is nice to have you back again. I hate it when you take breaks. If it is your wife's desire, please let her know we appreciate her sacrifice.

kingbmm wrote:There is a direct correlation between political activism and adhering to modern day apostles and prophets. The more extreme and radical one is towards a political party/ideology/candidate (whether it's from the right or left) the more unbalanced we will become. If one continues along this path, deception is almost inevitable as they align themselves with so called "active members" of the church who construct the same false doctrine in order to support their political philosophy. There are a multitude on this forum who indirectly allude to the notion that our current leaders have led the church astray. I strongly believe that this is more likely to happen on this "lds forum" more so than others because of the predominant political philosophy. In the words of Elder Maxwell, "These are things as they really are". I'm expecting resentment from these statements, but I simply don't care anymore. We are defenders of the faith and have made solemn covenants to build the Kingdom of God above everything else. This includes calling out potential apostates who question the leadership of the church.

The following address by Stephen E. Robinson perfectly lays out this deception....

If Satan can’t intimidate us with physical trials, he’ll sometimes try to fool us with substitute programs. He would like us to invest our time, talent, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often, these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. The deception comes in giving them a higher priority than our covenants. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow “alternate voices.”

These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the wrong causes, and they don’t perceive their shifting loyalties as unfaithfulness. Generally, they do not feel that they are rejecting Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways according to new standards and values. Consequently, their original commitments take a back seat to their new agenda. But the bottom line is still that they couldn’t be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn’t endure.

Again and again the Lord has warned the Church about following other voices. (See, for example, D&C 43:1–6.) Right now, there are many alternate voices vying for the attention of the Saints—social voices, intellectual voices, political voices, and other voices. In our premortal life, all of us rejected Satan’s persuasions to subscribe to a plan alternate to the Father’s. Now in mortality, we must do it again. If we are to endure, we must avoid alternate religious “special interest” groups.

I know a man who is going through a difficult time. He is politically intense and is particularly worried about what he sees as events leading up to the end of the world. He sees conspiracies in government and society, and he can’t understand why the Church isn’t as intense and as concerned as he is about these perceived threats. He spends a great deal of time trying to warn other members of the Church whom he believes to be asleep, and he privately wonders if some in leadership positions aren’t also asleep. Basically, his thinking runs like this: “My Church and my politics are telling me two different things, and I know that my politics are true … so there must be something wrong with the Church.” He does not consider the other logical possibility, nor does he recognize the reversal of loyalty evident in his thinking.

There may be some truth in some things he says, but that is not the point. The point is that he is listening to other voices and has transferred his highest loyalty to programs other than the Lord’s. Tragically, his politics have become the idol to which all else in his life must bow—even his commitment to the Church.

For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Some protection from the hazard of deception may be found in the principle of “more or less”: “And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

“And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.” (D&C 93:24–25; see also 3 Ne. 11:39–40; 3 Ne. 18:13–15; D&C 10:67–68; D&C 98:6–7.)

In the context of the gospel, truth is what God has actually said, what he actually directs, what he actually requires—no more and no less. On a strait and narrow path (see D&C 132:22), it doesn’t matter whether we fall off to the right or to the left, we are in trouble either way. It doesn’t matter whether we are “liberals” or “conservatives,” whether we believe “too little” or “too much”—that is, if Satan can’t get us to abandon the principles of the gospel, he is content that we should live them obsessively or as fanatics. One is less than the will of the Lord; the other adds human requirements to his will. Either puts us in the territory of the wicked one. There are those today who are embarrassed that God and his servants have said so much on some things and who go about trying to discredit the Brethren and neutralize the revelations and commandments. We have others who are embarrassed that God and his servants have not said more on other things and who go about preaching principles and programs the Lord has not revealed. One takes words out of God’s mouth; the other puts them in. Each preaches a “new, improved” gospel inspired by that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning, the very first alternate voice.

It requires discipline to embrace as gospel and to teach as gospel exactly what the Lord has revealed, no more and no less, and to avoid revising the gospel to suit ourselves. But those who can do it will know things as they really are (see Jacob 4:13) and will avoid deception.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/10/endur ... d?lang=eng


May I also suggest "Loyalty" by Gordon B. Hinkley:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... ry=loyalty

My support for Ron Paul comes because of my faith in the restored church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Thank you for this article KingBMM. What a testimony strengthener!

I realise that by posting this I am putting myself in the camp of the "wolves", but I just can't resist it. Jason you posted this from the puremormonism site:

Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment.

and then kingbmm quoted this from Stephen E. Robinson, who ever that is.

kingbmm wrote:
For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

I just can't help but see the glaring "philosophies of men mingled with scripture" being quoted right here on the same thread.

"Stephen E. Robinson, who ever that is."

Just some guy the Ensign decided to publish it looks like.

[/quote]
I just can't help but see the glaring "philosophies of men mingled with scripture" being quoted right here on the same thread.[/quote]

"Philosophies of men" does not mean anything and everything spoken by someone other than the prophet nor is scripture limited to that found in the standard works. Since prophets are the source of "official" scripture, we could translate this into "those who agree with some of what the prophet says, but..."

durangout wrote:

shadow wrote:

durangout wrote: It is painfully obvious to me that there are wolves on this site and their sole purpose is to damage the testimonies of the weak of the fold. I just hope everyone of the fold recognize who the wolves are.

That's true but I also believe some of the wolves honestly think they're just real smart sheep!

I think I'm a pretty smart sheep (a character flaw, I know) but I don't try to lead anyone astray. (I assume your comment was directed to me?)

Nope, not directed at you at all! I was agreeing with what you posted then added my own observation in addition to yours, that some wolves see themselves as smart sheep, smart enough that they have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

kingbmm wrote:For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Interesting. And all this time, I thought our main defense was faith in Jesus Christ. Dang. Guess I'll have to ditch Him and follow an organization (which, by the way, does have the freedom to choose to leave the truth by degrees - else why a need for a restoration in the first place?)

A Random Phrase wrote:

kingbmm wrote:For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Interesting. And all this time, I thought our main defense was faith in Jesus Christ. Dang. Guess I'll have to ditch Him and follow an organization (which, by the way, does have the freedom to choose to leave the truth by degrees - else why a need for a restoration in the first place?)

Sounds like he touched a nerve with you.

I recently posted a comment on Pure Mormonism blog re: Denver Snuffer . His reply was that he agrees with most of Snuffer's controversial views on the LDS Church.

Nan wrote:

A Random Phrase wrote:

kingbmm wrote:For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Interesting. And all this time, I thought our main defense was faith in Jesus Christ. Dang. Guess I'll have to ditch Him and follow an organization (which, by the way, does have the freedom to choose to leave the truth by degrees - else why a need for a restoration in the first place?)

Sounds like he touched a nerve with you.

I would think it would touch a nerve with anyone who professes to believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior.

Nan wrote:

A Random Phrase wrote:

kingbmm wrote:For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.

Interesting. And all this time, I thought our main defense was faith in Jesus Christ. Dang. Guess I'll have to ditch Him and follow an organization (which, by the way, does have the freedom to choose to leave the truth by degrees - else why a need for a restoration in the first place?)

Sounds like he touched a nerve with you.

Not really a nerve. I just thought it rather odd that Jesus was left out of the equation and the church was the salvation of souls all by itself.

reese wrote:I would think it would touch a nerve with anyone who professes to believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior.

Yup. One would think so, for sure.

Jason----
Thank you for all of this information. There are many posts on the forum that I feel are very anti-General authorities, anti-Mormon, anti-the gospel, etc.

I agree with your assessment.

Thank you again.

Almost everyone (including apostate/ fundementalist LDS) is claiming to follow the Savior - yet the various controversies revolve around if the First Presidency & 12 Apostles still have authority & divine revelation to lead Christ's church; hence Stephen Robinson's comment to follow the Church, it's leaders, with a deep conviction and correct understanding of the Gospel.