Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and the principles of liberty.
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/
Ditto!!!!!!!!! :ymhug:Nan wrote:Jason, Sorry I haven't gotten around to it, but is nice to have you back again. I hate it when you take breaks. If it is your wife's desire, please let her know we appreciate her sacrifice.
http://athoughtfulfaith.org/2012/09/23/ ... mormonism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Rock stands as a unique voice, warning the Saints about relying too much on the institutional church headquartered in Salt Lake City and its administrative leadership at the expense of developing our own relationship with God through scripture, revelation, and the Spirit of God. In the interview, we touch on a few topics including: the error of institutional infallibility and blind obedience, the nature of true revelation mediated through prophets, and how to maintain faith in Jesus Christ independent of religious institutions.
I think Rock’s unique take is an important and desperately needed voice in Modern Mormonism. We have all been taught that the Church and the Gospel are codependent and inseparable. As such, it is common for Mormons who take issue with certain aspects of Church policy, history and perceived past crimes to allow those grievances to influence their relationship to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Rock Waterman’s approach to this situation allows us as Mormons to embrace what we feel is true and right about the Gospel while setting aside aspects of our Mormon experience that are not in harmony with our values and ethics.
http://peepstone.wordpress.com/tag/rock-waterman/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Now I didn’t take issue with Roger’s post. However, nestled in his comments was a hyperlink that would plant the seed that ultimately change my worldview forever:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... d-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you don’t take the time to read this lengthy article (or if you’re too scared) this post was written by Rock Waterman, a prominent anti-establishment LDS Blogger. His comments mostly surround the research of Daymon Smith, a LDS cultural anthropologist who had apparently written some sort of exposé about his time working in the Church Office Building. Waterman touched on a few of the issues from Smith’s book, including the real motives behind the big “Flooding the Earth with the Book of Mormon” push in the 1980s, the City Creek Mall, and other disturbing revelations about the inner workings of the corporate church. The post dealt its criticism toward the Church and the brethren with a heavy hand and a tone laden with sarcasm.
I find this all very disturbing to the point I'm not sure I can stay in the Church. I've been inactive about four months, due to various reasons. While I'm out, I'm studying other things, like this eye-opening blog, and seeing that the Church has feet of clay! It seems like the leaders are on a power-trip, setting themselves up on Rameumptoms, looking down on us poor deluded little saints, even boasting that their words are more important than revelation, or a personal relationship with Christ! We are oppressed with rules and regulations that, to me, don't make much sense anymore, if they ever did. And, I find that the scriptures are property of the Corporation of the President of the Church, and that even my temple recommend is a Contract with a Corporation and the property of the Church. At this point, if I went back to church, I would probably be soon excommunicated anyway. So, I don't know if I will go back or not. I'm not so sure what to believe anymore. It just doesn't look like Jesus has much to do with it, or even like what Joseph Smith meant it to be.
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/profile/RockWaterman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Rock has done an outstanding article! I KNOW that many of you have given up on God, because of your anger against the church! PLEASE, I HUMBLY am asking you to read this amazing piece by Rock and you WILL know that the Mormon church of today IS the GREATEST conspiracy of evil men, after Joseph Smith!
I know how you feel about the church and Joseph Smith. So did I until 3 weeks ago. I am telling you that Joseph Smith was a prophet and was assassinated so that Brigham Young could push his evil doctrine of 2 gods and polygamy. Please pray as I have, and feel again that God lives and loves you all very much. I have died 5 times- I usually say 4 for a very personal reason.Even after walking with Him, during 2 of these near death experiences- I still mocked Joseph Smith and The Book of Mormon, until just 3 weeks ago.
http://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment.
http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/chi-7/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Comment by Rock Waterman on April 28, 2011 7:04 am
Excellent! I can’t praise you enough for this piece.
Some years ago I was told by someone in a position to know that at the Church Office Building is an employee whose primary job it is to respond to IRS requests for individual member’s tithing payments. And this employee complies to these requests even though they are never made by court order.
The IRS uses the information they get from individual’s tithing records to bolster their case against someone they may be going after. As the thinking goes, if we can learn how much tithing the mark pays, that is almost certainly ten percent of his total gross earnings.
I’ve really had it with this corporate shill. Thanks again for the excellent reminder that the modern Church today is not serving God.
Unlike everybody else, I don't "know" the church is true, I don't "know" Joseph Smith was a prophet, I don't "know" anything. I have my beliefs, but those beliefs are constantly subject to change as knew information comes available. If I "know" anything, it's that self-assured certainty is one of the surest ways to prevent arriving at the truth of anything.
What I do is simply share my discoveries and opinions. Oh, and I have no ambitions to start my own church, in case you were wondering.
...
Moving on, it's apparent you did not listen closely to the podcast because you assert that I would have supported Hinckley had he given the thumbs up on the attack of Iraq. As the four of us discussed here, Hinckley in effect did give his tacit approval, and I'm pretty sure I was quite vocal in my disgust for what he called his "opinion."
It was clear as glass to me AT THE TIME that Hinckley was dead wrong, as I was somewhat familiar with the situation in the mideast because, unlike Hinckley, I had been reading the real expert's warnings against an invasion.
Hinckley, rather than seek the opinions of those experts who warned against the attack, or even to ask God about his thoughts on the subject (there's a novel idea!) instead sided with the politicians, telling us that they should be trusted because they knew more about these things, and after all, no one can foretell the future.
That conference talk was pretty much the last straw for me. I do not sustain as prophets men who habitually declare that they cannot see into the future.
...
I don't fault those who look at the LDS Church (TM) of today and cry "enough!" It's getting to be very near an abomination, but many haven't caught on. Those who have usually walk away, and who can blame them?
I look at what I see as the core theologies, and find them of value. It has nothing to do with staying in the Church. It only has to do with embracing that which is good and letting the rest go. I suppose where most get confused is in thinking that I'm still "in the Church."
Well, I know a whole lot of PostMo's who still attend weekly to keep up appearances. I've been three times in three years. I believe what I consider some of the stuff about Mormonism. That doesn't mean I support the corporation that has taken my church over, nor do I sustain men who CALL themselves prophets, seers and revelators, yet who never prophecy, never reveal anything, and who can't see Jack.
Had Hinckley stepped up to the pulpit that day and denounced that unscriptural and unconstitutional invasion, I would have been pleased, because it would have told me that the President of the Church was at least standing in the gap and speaking truth to power as was a primary duty of prophets of old.
But he didn't. He hemmed and he hawed and he vacillated to the point that you couldn't tell where he stood. In the end, he gave us, not the word of the Lord, but his OPINION, of all things! Who in hell tunes into conference to get the Prophet's opinion?! I thought he was supposed to relay the will of the Lord. (I noticed that he quoted from the beginning of section 98, but he made no mention of verse 33, which was the very verse salient to the situation).
Had Hinckley's opinion been contrary to the written word of God, he would have tipped his hand as a fraud. But he was too cowardly to stand against the political establishment. So in the end he said nothing. That was one of the most useless conference talks of all time.
Here again is the link to the podcast. Hear him speak. Angry is not a word I would use to describe the interview.Ben McClintock wrote:Rocks conclusions have a spirit of anger about them. Not exactly what is needed to have the spirit of the Lord direct one when trying to weed through Church history.
The problem is that not everyone is grounded in Christ when they come across such material. As such, most of what Waterman says is incredulous and harmful. Having said that there were a couple interesting tidbits in there to be fair, but overall his material is astonishing.AshleyB wrote: As long as a person is grounded in Christ then when a person comes across a blog like Rock's it won't do anything to sway them against the brethren.
His definition of man is the problem. It is anti-scriptural. He feels ripped off and lied to, that spirit leads to bad conclusions on many levels.ajax wrote:Seems like Rock's biggest beef is the LDS tendency to rely on man or a group of men for their spiritual welfare. I have no problem with that message.
False ideas and expectation regarding apostles and prophets??? Or believing arm of the flesh men who have apostatized like Rock?AshleyB wrote:I will say I have not read this whole thread. I am pretty familiar with the Pure Mormonism blog. Regardless of the flavor of Rock's message it impacts me how I allow it to. It's not that I don't see or understand where you guys are coming from. You could be right and he may have some resentments that he needs to work through. But, for myself I won't make that judgement call because I dont really know his heart. But regardless of the flavor of his message it doesn't mean that the things he states are not true either. But this that I posted in another thread explains how I see it.
As long as a person is grounded in Christ then when a person comes across a blog like Rock's it won't do anything to sway them against the brethren. Because they will already have realistic expectations about them and their human condition. I personally believe that if a person sees them in a realistic light then those things won't cause harm. If it does spiritually harm them in their testimony's then they are probably in need of re-evaluating where their Faith is placed and why. If they begin to have doubts about the gospel because of the flaws of men and institutions then is that something we can really blame someone like Rock for? For writing a blog and stating his opinions? Or should we recognize that, that person likely built up false ideas and expectations regarding apostles and prophets? If they are guilty of some form of idolatry and they likely are if they are willing to leave the church over it, then the blame resides with themselves.
Its all about bias and perspective....and who's side you are listening to....Seek the Truth wrote:The problem is that not everyone is grounded in Christ when they come across such material. As such, most of what Waterman says is incredulous and harmful. Having said that there were a couple interesting tidbits in there to be fair, but overall his material is astonishing.AshleyB wrote: As long as a person is grounded in Christ then when a person comes across a blog like Rock's it won't do anything to sway them against the brethren.
We can take any topic in the gospel and an atheist will spin it one way, a believer another way, just presenting material doesn't mean your take is correct. In this case, I see very little Waterman writes that would lead them to anything other than unbelief in LDS beliefs.
Wasn't Korihor just going about giving his opinion on things???AshleyB wrote:I see what you are saying StT...But again I would have to state this:
"If they begin to have doubts about the gospel because of the flaws of men and institutions then is that something we can really blame someone like Rock for? For writing a blog and stating his opinions? Or should we recognize that, that person likely built up false ideas and expectations regarding apostles and prophets? If they are guilty of some form of idolatry and they likely are if they are willing to leave the church over it, then the blame resides with themselves."
You know what he speaks of Ben. The very tendency for us to look to the brethren for everything. To set them up as demi-gods. To hang on every word. To attend their birthday parties. This is very mormon.Ben McClintock wrote:His definition of man is the problem. It is anti-scriptural. He feels ripped off and lied to, that spirit leads to bad conclusions on many levels.ajax wrote:Seems like Rock's biggest beef is the LDS tendency to rely on man or a group of men for their spiritual welfare. I have no problem with that message.
In the 1st section of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord makes this clear when He says,
“14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;”
The Lord says that if we don’t listen to Him or His servants the Prophets and Apostles that we will be cut off. In verse 38 he explains why,
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
the Prophet Joseph taught,
“It is necessary to know who holds the keys of power, and who does not, or we may be likely to be deceived.” TPJS 336
The Lord explains the spirit of those that do not obey His servants in verse 16
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, … substance is that of an idol
When we ignore the words of the one who holds the keys, we are really making and worshipping a false idol out of our own beliefs and false traditions, and we will be cut off.
The Lord gives us a parable on obedience in the Doctrine and Covenants section 101:43–62
What do you speak of and recommend???ajax wrote:You know what he speaks of Ben. The very tendency for us to look to the brethren for everything. To set them up as demi-gods. To hang on every word. To attend their birthday parties. This is very mormon.Ben McClintock wrote:His definition of man is the problem. It is anti-scriptural. He feels ripped off and lied to, that spirit leads to bad conclusions on many levels.ajax wrote:Seems like Rock's biggest beef is the LDS tendency to rely on man or a group of men for their spiritual welfare. I have no problem with that message.
In the 1st section of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord makes this clear when He says,
“14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;”
The Lord says that if we don’t listen to Him or His servants the Prophets and Apostles that we will be cut off. In verse 38 he explains why,
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
the Prophet Joseph taught,
“It is necessary to know who holds the keys of power, and who does not, or we may be likely to be deceived.” TPJS 336
The Lord explains the spirit of those that do not obey His servants in verse 16
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, … substance is that of an idol
When we ignore the words of the one who holds the keys, we are really making and worshipping a false idol out of our own beliefs and false traditions, and we will be cut off.
The Lord gives us a parable on obedience in the Doctrine and Covenants section 101:43–62
To give each other a phone call. This going back and forth on two different threads is exhausting.Legion wrote:What do you speak of and recommend???
Legion wrote:Wasn't Korihor just going about giving his opinion on things???AshleyB wrote:I see what you are saying StT...But again I would have to state this:
"If they begin to have doubts about the gospel because of the flaws of men and institutions then is that something we can really blame someone like Rock for? For writing a blog and stating his opinions? Or should we recognize that, that person likely built up false ideas and expectations regarding apostles and prophets? If they are guilty of some form of idolatry and they likely are if they are willing to leave the church over it, then the blame resides with themselves."
Yes.AshleyB wrote: "If they begin to have doubts about the gospel because of the flaws of men and institutions then is that something we can really blame someone like Rock for?
That person may in fact have little understanding of anything, let alone "false ideas and expectations regarding apostles and prophets".For writing a blog and stating his opinions? Or should we recognize that, that person likely built up false ideas and expectations regarding apostles and prophets?
We're all responsible for ourselves, that is true, but that includes anti-mormons also. The deceived and the deceiver.If they are guilty of some form of idolatry and they likely are if they are willing to leave the church over it, then the blame resides with themselves."
Well I reckon we agree to disagree....because I believe in being wary of messengers selling disenchantment with the servants of God.AshleyB wrote:I strive to listen to the voice of the spirit. The voice of Christ. The messenger is not so important as the message. I am saddened by anyone who would willingly choose to leave the church over feeling ripped off as Ben Mcclintock says. And I do stand by my statement that if a person is willing to leave the church because of those reasons they are likely guilty of idolatry and likely in need of repentance of said Idolatry. But there are always exceptions to every rule and as I said I will not endeavor to judge someone else's true intentions. I feel much more saddened over that then someone who leaves just because they don't feel like going or because they feel for reasons we may not understand it is not a place for them. I will say that I have sensed a possible resentful air to some of his posts. But that doesn't mean he isn't correct about the given issue and just because I might perceive it that way it doesn't mean it is that way.
I will say I went through my own period of feeling resentful over some things. Though, I keep those things to myself for the most part. But I ultimately realized that if I was feeling that way it was my own fault. I realized it is not fair to expect perfection from anyone. I shouldn't expect something from others that I myself am not capable of. I just think its off track to convince others that he wrong about the tithing issue just because he may have some bias. When you read history and are trying to discover the truth you have to learn to sort that stuff out for yourself. We ALL have bias. No one is without it. His blog is no different that way. That is why I don't understand the purpose of singling him out.
LOL...true that!ajax wrote:To give each other a phone call. This going back and forth on two different threads is exhausting.Legion wrote:What do you speak of and recommend???
I reckon that depends....AshleyB wrote:Legion wrote:Wasn't Korihor just going about giving his opinion on things???AshleyB wrote:I see what you are saying StT...But again I would have to state this:
"If they begin to have doubts about the gospel because of the flaws of men and institutions then is that something we can really blame someone like Rock for? For writing a blog and stating his opinions? Or should we recognize that, that person likely built up false ideas and expectations regarding apostles and prophets? If they are guilty of some form of idolatry and they likely are if they are willing to leave the church over it, then the blame resides with themselves."
Yeah, so what's the correlation? So we are not allowed to state our opinions now? Are we all Korihors then?
So under your definition we would all be korihors. We all teach the doctrines of men mingled with scripture. Every single one of us. And anyone who thinks otherwise are full of themselves to boot.
You would have to go back and read a lot of stuff to fully understand where some of us are coming from. Or to understand where I stand exactly. I think you have a certain picture painted of some of my views but the painting isn't all the way filled in. I do appreciate your honest commentary and approach.