Wolves and Sheep

[marc]

Just so we're all clear, this website and message board is representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and not a reorganized or fundamentalist splinter group, correct? I've been getting odd vibes ever since I joined.

[linj2fly]

"Stephen E. Robinson, who ever that is."

Just some guy the Ensign decided to publish it looks like.

Author of the LDS bestseller (in the 90s), "Believing Christ." BYU religion prof and FARMS review contributor.

[AussieOi]

The following address by Stephen E. Robinson perfectly lays out this deception....

I know a man who is going through a difficult time. He is politically intense and is particularly worried about what he sees as events leading up to the end of the world. He sees conspiracies in government and society, and he can’t understand why the Church isn’t as intense and as concerned as he is about these perceived threats. He spends a great deal of time trying to warn other members of the Church whom he believes to be asleep, and he privately wonders if some in leadership positions aren’t also asleep. Basically, his thinking runs like this: “My Church and my politics are telling me two different things, and I know that my politics are true … so there must be something wrong with the Church.” He does not consider the other logical possibility, nor does he recognize the reversal of loyalty evident in his thinking.

who is this clown and what is his screen name here eh?

and why is he psycoanalysing people publically and telling the world what his private and personal thoughts about church leadership are. I wonder how "this man" felt when he read this author pontificating about him in The Ensign? What an absolute joke.

Would someone send him the statements by ETB please, so he can go back to his books

Better still, here's Ether

22 And whatsoever anation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the bblood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for cvengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get apower and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of bdestruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this asecret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the afreedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who bbeguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath chardened the hearts of men that they have dmurdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have ano power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be bpersuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all crighteousness and be saved.


Ah stuff it, here it is.


General Conference April 1965
Elder Ezra Taft Benson
Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles

In 1831 the Lord said this to his Church:

"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

"Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

"For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

"But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned." (D&C 58:26-29.)

The purposes of the Lord-the great objectives-continue the same: the salvation and exaltation of his children.

Objectives and Guide Lines

Usually the Lord gives us the overall objectives to be accomplished and some guidelines to follow, but he expects us to work out most of the details and methods. The methods and procedures are usually developed through study and prayer and by living so that we can obtain and follow the promptings of the Spirit. Less spiritually advanced people, such as those in the days of Moses, had to be commanded in many things. Today those spiritually alert look at the objectives, check the guidelines laid down by the Lord and his prophets, and then prayerfully act-without having to be commanded "in all things." This attitude prepares men for godhood.

The overall objective to be accomplished in missionary work, temple work, providing for the needy, and bringing up our children in righteousness has always been the same; only our methods to accomplish these objectives have varied. Any faithful member in this dispensation, no matter when he lived, could have found righteous methods to have carried out these objectives without having to wait for the latest, specific church-wide program.

His Children To Act on Their Own Initiative and Responsibility

Sometimes the Lord hopefully waits on his children to act on their own, and when they do not, they lose the greater prize, and the Lord will either drop the entire matter and let them suffer the consequences or else he will have to spell it out in greater detail. Usually, I fear, the more he has to spell it out, the smaller is our reward.

Often, because of circumstances, the Lord, through revelation to his prophets or through inspired programs designed by faithful members which later become adopted on a church-wide basis, will give to all the membership a righteous means to help accomplish the objective; for instance, any member of the Church a century ago who studied church doctrine would have known that he had the prime responsibility to see that his children had spiritualized family recreation and were taught in the home lessons in character building and gospel principles. But some did not do it.

The Home Evening

Then, in 1915 President Joseph F. Smith introduced, church-wide, the "weekly home evening program" with promised blessings to all who faithfully adopted it. Many refused and lost the promised blessings. (At the October conference, 1947, I referred to that promise in a talk on the Family Home Evening.) Today we have the home evening manual and other helps. Yet some still refuse to bring up their children in righteousness.

But there are some today who complain that the home evening manual should have been issued years ago. If this is true then the Lord will hold his servants accountable, but no one can say that from the inception of the Church up to the present day the Lord through his Spirit to the individual members and through his spokesmen the prophets, has not given us the objectives and plenty of guidelines and counsel. The fact that some of us have not done much about it even when it is spelled out in detail is not the Lord's fault.

For years we have been counseled to have on hand a year's supply of food. Yet there are some today who will not start storing until the Church comes out with a detailed monthly home storage program. Now suppose that never happens. We still cannot say we have not been told.

Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church-and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing-a famine in this land of one year's duration could wipe out a large percentage of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers. Yet we cannot say we have not been warned.

Another warning: You and I sustain one man on this earth as God's mouthpiece-President David O. McKay-one of the greatest seers who has ever walked this earth. We do not need a prophet-we have one-what we desperately need is a listening ear.

Warnings of Threats to Freedom

Should it be of concern to us when the mouthpiece of the Lord keeps constantly and consistently raising his voice of warning about the loss of our freedom as he has over the years? There are two unrighteous ways to deal with his prophetic words of warning: you can fight them or you can ignore them. Either course will bring you disaster in the long run.

Hear his words: "No greater immediate responsibility rests upon members of the Church, upon all citizens of this Republic and of neighboring Republics than to protect the freedom vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States." (Cited in Jerreld L. Newquist, Prophets, Principles and National Survival [SLC: Publishers Press, 1964], p. 157.) As important as are all other principles of the gospel, it was the freedom issue which determined whether you received a body. To have been on the wrong side of the freedom issue during the war in heaven meant eternal damnation. How then can Latter-day Saints expect to be on the wrong side in this life and escape the eternal consequences? The war in heaven is raging on earth today. The issues are the same: "Shall men be compelled to do what others claim is for their best welfare" or will they heed the counsel of the prophet and preserve their freedom?

Satan argued that men given their freedom would not choose correctly therefore he would compel them to do right and save us all. Today Satan argues that men given their freedom do not choose wisely; therefore a so-called brilliant, benevolent few must establish the welfare government and force us into a greater socialistic society. We are assured of being led into the promised land as long as we let them put a golden ring in our nose. In the end we lose our freedom and the promised land also. No matter what you call it-communism, socialism, or the welfare state-our freedom is sacrificed. We believe the gospel is the greatest thing in the world; why then do we not force people to join the Church if they are not smart enough to see it on their own? Because this is Satan's way not the Lord's plan. The Lord uses persuasion and love.

Hear again the words of God's mouthpiece: "Today two mighty forces are battling for the supremacy of the world. The destiny of mankind is in the balance. It is a question of God and liberty, or atheism and slavery. . . .

"Those forces are known and have been designated by Satan on the one hand, and Christ on the other.

"In Joshua's time they were called `gods of the Amorites,' for one, and `the Lord' on the other. . . . In these days, they are called `domination by the state,' on one hand, `personal liberty,' on the other; communism on one, free agency on the other." (Ibid., pp. 215-216.)

Now, the Lord knew that before the gospel could flourish there must first be an atmosphere of freedom. This is why he first established the Constitution of this land through gentiles whom he raised up before he restored the gospel. In how many communist countries today are we doing missionary work, building chapels, etc.? And yet practically every one of those countries have been pushed into communism and kept under communism with the great assistance of evil forces which have and are operating within our own country and neighboring lands.

Yes, were it not for the tragic policies of governments-including our own-tens of millions of people murdered and hundreds of millions enslaved since World War II would be alive and free today to receive the restored gospel.

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., put it clearly and courageously when he said:

"Reduced to its lowest terms, the great struggle which now rocks the whole earth more and more takes on the character of a struggle of the individual versus the state. . . .

"This gigantic world-wide struggle, more and more takes on the form of a war to the death. We shall do well and wisely so to face and so to enter it. And we must all take part. Indeed, we all are taking part in that struggle. whether we will or not. Upon its final issue, liberty lives or dies. . . . The plain and simple issue now facing us in America is freedom or slavery. . . . We have largely lost the conflict so far waged. But there is time to win the final victory, if we sense our danger and fight." (Ibid., pp. 318, 327-328.)

Now where do we stand in this struggle, and what are we doing about it?

The devil knows that if the elders of Israel should ever wake up, they could step forth and help preserve freedom and extend the gospel. Therefore the devil has concentrated, and to a large extent successfully, in neutralizing much of the priesthood. He has reduced them to sleeping giants. His arguments are clever.

Here are a few samples:

First: "We really haven't received much instruction about freedom," the devil says. This is a lie, for we have been warned time and again. No prophet of the Lord has ever issued more solemn warning than President David O. McKay. Last conference I spoke of a book embodying much of the prophets' warnings on freedom from Joseph Smith to David O. McKay which I commend to you. It is entitled Prophets, Principles, and National Survival.

Second: "You're too involved in other church work," says the devil. But freedom is a weighty matter of the law; the lesser principles of the gospel you should keep but not leave this one undone. We may have to balance and manage our time better. Your other church work will be limited once you lose your freedom as our Saints have found out in Czechoslovakia, Poland, and many other nations.

Third: "You want to be loved by everyone," says the devil, "and this freedom battle is so controversial you might be accused of engaging in politics." Of course the government has penetrated so much of our lives that one can hardly speak for freedom without being accused of being political. Some might even call the war in heaven a political struggle-certainly it was controversial. Yet the valiant entered it with Michael. Those who support only the popular principles of the gospel have their reward. And those who want to lead the quiet, retiring life but still expect to do their full duty can't have it both ways.

Said Elder John A. Widtsoe:

"The troubles of the world may largely be laid at the doors of those who are neither hot nor cold; who always follow the line of least resistance; whose timid hearts flutter at taking sides for truth. As in the great Council in the heavens, so in the Church of Christ on earth, there can be no neutrality." (Ibid, p. 440.)

Fourth: "Wait until it becomes popular to do," says the devil, "or, at least until everybody in the Church agrees on what should be done." But this fight for freedom might never become popular in our day. And if you wait until everybody agrees in this Church, you will be waiting through the second coming of the Lord. Would you have hesitated to follow the inspired counsel of the Prophet Joseph Smith simply because some weak men disagreed with him? God's living mouthpiece has spoken to us-are we for him or against him? In spite of the Prophet's opposition to increased federal aid and compulsory unionism, some church members still champion these freedom destroying programs. Where do you stand?

Fifth: "It might hurt your business or your family," says the devil, "and besides why not let the gentiles save the country? They aren't as busy as you are." Well, there were many businessmen who went along with Hitler because it supposedly helped their business. They lost everything. Many of us are here today because our forefathers loved truth enough that they fought at Valley Forge or crossed the plains in spite of the price it cost them or their families. We had better take our small pain now than our greater loss later. There were souls who wished afterwards that they had stood and fought with Washington and the founding fathers, but they waited too long-they passed up eternal glory. There has never been a greater time than now to stand up against entrenched evil. And while the gentiles established the Constitution, we have a divine mandate to preserve it. But unfortunately today in this freedom struggle, many gentiles are showing greater wisdom in their generation than the children of light.

Sixth: "Don't worry," says the devil "the Lord will protect you, and besides the world is so corrupt and heading toward destruction at such a pace that you can't stop it, so why try." Well to begin with, the Lord will not protect us unless we do our part. This devilish tactic of persuading people not to get concerned because the Lord will protect them no matter what they do is exposed by the Book of Mormon. Referring to the devil, it says, "And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, and they will say: All is well in Zion, yea, Zion prospereth, all is well-and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell." (2 Nephi 28:21.)

I like that word "carefully." In other words, don't shake them, you might awake them. But the Book of Mormon warns us that when we should see these murderous conspiracies in our midst that we should awake to our awful situation. Now why should we awake if the Lord is going to take care of us anyway? Now let us suppose that it is too late to save freedom. It is still accounted unto us for righteousness' sake to stand up and fight. Some Book of Mormon prophets knew of the final desolate end of their nations, but they still fought on, and they saved some souls including their own by so doing. For, after all, the purpose of life is to prove ourselves, and the final victory will be for freedom.

But many of the prophecies referring to America's preservation are conditional. That is, if we do our duty we can be preserved, and if not then we shall be destroyed. This means that a good deal of the responsibility lies with the priesthood of this Church as to what happens to America and as to how much tragedy can be avoided if we do act now.

And now as to the last neutralizer that the devil uses most effectively-it is simply this: "Don't do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution." This brings us right back to the scripture I opened with today-to those slothful servants who will not do anything until they are "compelled in all things." Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set one up at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe.

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church. And have we elders been warned? Yes, we have. And have we elders been given the guide lines? Yes indeed, we have. And besides, if the Church should ever inaugurate a program, who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy. It would be those choice spirits who, not waiting to be "commanded in all things," used their own free will, the counsel of the prophets and the Spirit of the Lord as guidelines and who entered the battle "in a good cause" and brought to pass much righteousness in freedom's cause.

Years ago Elder Joseph F. Merrill of the Council of the Twelve encouraged the members of the Church to join right-to-work leagues and President Heber J. Grant concurred. For our day President David O. McKay has called communism the greatest threat to the Church, and it is certainly the greatest mortal threat this country has ever faced. What are you doing to fight.

"The War in Heaven" Is Raging on Earth Today

Brethren, if we had done our homework and were faithful, we could step forward at this time and help save this country. The fact that most of us are unprepared to do it is an indictment we will have to bear. The longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission. The war in heaven is raging on earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle?

"Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

"For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. . . ." (D&C 58:27-28.)

In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.




Stephen E. Robinson wrote a good book once. he needs to drop his middle initial and stop being an academic.

If he wants to keep his head up his own pontificated backside good for him, but don't go around shoving other peoples heads.

Gee. I'd hate to think it was shut down merchants like this at BYU who sent Doc-Jones out the door?

[AussieOi]

Just so we're all clear, this website and message board is representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and not a reorganized or fundamentalist splinter group, correct? I've been getting odd vibes ever since I joined.

get with the program sunshine

this is the world wide web

what, you really think the 19r old girls in the "For Sisters Only" section really are chicks?

[marc]

Just so we're all clear, this website and message board is representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and not a reorganized or fundamentalist splinter group, correct? I've been getting odd vibes ever since I joined.

get with the program sunshine

this is the world wide web

what, you really think the 19r old girls in the "For Sisters Only" section really are chicks?

) I actually had never visited the Sisters forum, but maybe once and I think it was because someone posted a "reasons why I cry" thread. That was odd.

:p

[kingbmm]

I love how this thread is actually being debated...better yet, I love how certain people are trying to seperate Christ from his Church.
Sometimes I really can't believe what happens on this forum.

[Jason]

Jason, Sorry I haven't gotten around to it, but is nice to have you back again. I hate it when you take breaks. If it is your wife's desire, please let her know we appreciate her sacrifice.

Thank you....the breaks are for me. I get frustrated at times wondering if my efforts are value added or not. Many times it seems that all we do on here is fight and bicker amongst ourselves - myself included. But then I receive some information from somebody else that hits me hard and I'm able to grasp a concept/idea in a new perspective and feel enlightened for the experience....and am grateful for the participation. As well as a place to vent and share research in a world that isn't too keen on my research....as well as running across items that compel me to do research that also changes my perspective and what I hope is enlightening.

Still need to do a deep dive on Semp's electrical universe material that looks extremely fascinating....

[Jason]

Just so we're all clear, this website and message board is representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and not a reorganized or fundamentalist splinter group, correct? I've been getting odd vibes ever since I joined.

LDSFreedomForum.com does not necessarily agree with all content on this forum. This is not an official site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The views and content on this site reflect only the opinions and teachings of the authors of the respective content contained herein.

there are at least 7 (if the poll is correct) people who are polygamist on this forum, and I know more than that are fundamentalist at least in part. I am not aware of any from the former reorganized LDS church.

Shadow is a church spy.
Mark is a cia plant.
Jason is a ex marine, so he is a bit slow on some things, but has great dress standards.
Aussie is a uni-bomber in training.

so we have lots of diversity here (aka, diffrent vibes) and the main feel of the board changes based on who shouts the loudest and most.

Coming from an ex-squid I'll take that as a complement...LOL

fyi - there is no such thing as an "ex-marine" or a "former marine"....the Commandant said so -
http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/cmc/Do ... ipt%29.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Marine is a Marine. I set the policy two weeks ago – there’s no such thing as a former Marine. You’re a Marine, just in a different uniform and you’re in a different phase of your life. But you’ll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico.

- Commandant, General James F. Amos (via The Seahorse)

[reese]

And thus commandeth the Father that I (Jesus Christ) should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

somehow now means that you are by default a wolf.

I just wanted to add a few scriptures that came just before this one that Brent quoted, so we can be sure of exaclty who the gentiles are, that the Lord is speaking of. Because I know we all like to blame this behavior and therefore this scripture with all of its condemnations, on all the non-members.

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

So clearly the Lord calls those who would have the knowledge of the fulness of the gospel in the last days: gentiles. Not the house of Israel. So Mormons fall under the name gentile, not house of Israel, in the BofM. Here is another scripture a few chapters on where the Savior again makes it clear that members of the LDS church are called gentiles.

5 Therefore, when these works and the works(contained in the BofM) which shall be wrought among you(the Nephites) hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles(here we are again, bringing the BofM to the remnant), unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

The BofM talks many times about the gentiles "fighting against Zion". Nephi established right from the beginning in the BofM, WHO the gentiles are, the Lord in 3 Nephi was consistant with that definition. So we mormons are part of the gentiles, actually we are the fuller definition of the gentiles, as the we are the only ones who actualy read the BofM and thereby benefit from the warnings. If this is true then the vast majority of Mormons will:

-do(or at least support) all of the things listed in the scripture above by Brent
-fight against Zion
-fail to repent
-and receive the full condemnation placed upon us by the BofM.

I think for many of us it is not about whether the CHURCH has failed or if the CHURCH is still true, etc. It is about what the scriptures actually say about us mormons. There are warnings that have life or death consequences and it is worth at least making sure we understand what exactly we need to repent of.

[Glenn]

While living in the Bible belt I recall a woman who was a convert. She enjoyed the sincere friendship and association at her past church, but knew she had to follow her heart and join the LDS church. She lost the association of many friends and family because of her decision to join the LDS church. This woman struggled because the LDS members showed little interest in fellow-shipping her; they just didn't appreciate the magnitude of her sacrifice and her subsequent needs for fellowship. Her home teachers were nonexistent to say the least. She expressed a point that has stuck with me ever since. She challenged the notion that LDS members were easily excused from their imperfections/neglect, because the Church was "perfect" (all is well). She said that Church can only rise as high as it members, and at the end of the day the Church and its members are the same. I recognized the truth in her statement.

Mortal Men/Women = very imperfect
The Church (As administered by Mortals) = still imperfect
The Gospel of Jesus Christ = Perfect

We as individuals, and as a Church are a work in progress. Jesus Christ is waiting for us to come unto him. Only then can the Lord join us in the flesh and dwell among us both as individuals, and as a Church. We get too caught up over Brigham Young worship, polygamy worship, criticism worship and a myriad of other pet issues that we forget who we are really seeking.

As for "wolves and sheep" I have learned from real experience to be wary of those claiming to defend the flock from wolves; sometimes a wolf simply doesn't like competition for a good meal. As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

[linj2fly]

I have some questions....all my life I've heard this:

"The <________> will never be taken from the earth again."

Fill in the blank with 'kingdom,' 'church,' priesthood,' etc. "There will not be another apostacy..."

So...what's true and what's not....all? some? I'd like some clarification.

Many have noted on the forum that the Nephite govt broke down into tribes before Christ's coming. I noticed that before this happened, the Church broke apart:

3 Ne 6:14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.

And we have Joseph Smith telling us about the key that will never rust: to follow the majority of the twelve. Other brethren have also warned us about wolves. And, as BrentL has demonstrated, there is a historical pattern for wolves in the inner circle, so to speak. (Actually beginning with Lucifer in the Pre-existence, and continuing with Cain on down; all were in the 'inner circle.') We are warned over and over again to prepare and beware of deception...

So what is it exactly that will never again be taken from the earth again?

[shadow]

As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

Keep working!

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

[Glenn]

As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

Keep working!

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Proverbs 18:12
12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:30
30 And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers.

[reese]

I have some questions....all my life I've heard this:

"The <________> will never be taken from the earth again."

Fill in the blank with 'kingdom,' 'church,' priesthood,' etc. "There will not be another apostacy..."

So...what's true and what's not....all? some? I'd like some clarification.

Many have noted on the forum that the Nephite govt broke down into tribes before Christ's coming. I noticed that before this happened, the Church broke apart:

3 Ne 6:14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.

And we have Joseph Smith telling us about the key that will never rust: to follow the majority of the twelve. Other brethren have also warned us about wolves. And, as BrentL has demonstrated, there is a historical pattern for wolves in the inner circle, so to speak. (Actually beginning with Lucifer in the Pre-existence, and continuing with Cain on down; all were in the 'inner circle.') We are warned over and over again to prepare and beware of deception...

So what is it exactly that will never again be taken from the earth again?

Here are a few scriptures in D&C:

3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;

The Lord is speaking to J.S. here, telling him he will never lose the keys of the kingdom.

44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

So I guess the thing we need to know is: Is the LDS church and the kingdom of God the same thing?
In JST Revelations we are told that the woman is the church of God and the child she brings forth is the the kingdom of God. Daniel also tells us that the kingdom of God will crush all other nations and kingdoms. My personal thoughts are that the church is part of the kingdom of God. But the kingdom of God is much more than than the church.

[reese]

While living in the Bible belt I recall a woman who was a convert. She enjoyed the sincere friendship and association at her past church, but knew she had to follow her heart and join the LDS church. She lost the association of many friends and family because of her decision to join the LDS church. This woman struggled because the LDS members showed little interest in fellow-shipping her; they just didn't appreciate the magnitude of her sacrifice and her subsequent needs for fellowship. Her home teachers were nonexistent to say the least. She expressed a point that has stuck with me ever since. She challenged the notion that LDS members were easily excused from their imperfections/neglect, because the Church was "perfect" (all is well). She said that Church can only rise as high as it members, and at the end of the day the Church and its members are the same. I recognized the truth in her statement.

Mortal Men/Women = very imperfect
The Church (As administered by Mortals) = still imperfect
The Gospel of Jesus Christ = Perfect

We as individuals, and as a Church are a work in progress. Jesus Christ is waiting for us to come unto him. Only then can the Lord join us in the flesh and dwell among us both as individuals, and as a Church. We get too caught up over Brigham Young worship, polygamy worship, criticism worship and a myriad of other pet issues that we forget who we are really seeking.

As for "wolves and sheep" I have learned from real experience to be wary of those claiming to defend the flock from wolves; sometimes a wolf simply doesn't like competition for a good meal. As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

I agree with you Glenn.

[shadow]

So it's pride that keeps you from becoming one of the Lord's sheep, eh Glenn #-o
At least you know, and as GI Joe always says, knowing is half the battle!

[Glenn]

So it's pride that keeps you from becoming one of the Lord's sheep, eh Glenn #-o
At least you know, and as GI Joe always says, knowing is half the battle!

I am painfully aware of my weaknesses, including pride. However, your inability to recognize the pride in your own words is both astonishing, yet expected.

The Saints are struggling with a number of challenges: materialism, lack of dedication, doctrinal disputes etc. However, I have come to realize that our greatest weakness as Saints is our Arrogance and Pride; none of us are immune to this spiritual plague. After returning to Utah I must say that I have never seen so many "experts in the faith" who shirk their callings and disregard their home teaching responsibilities etc. etc. Its pride and arrogance that will cause the Saints to destroy each other; the adversary will simply mop up after the conflict.

Some have made this forum their own tower of Rameumptom. Some of us (including myself) may have done it inadvertently. As for me...No more...The hour is late and our tribulations are near.
There are a number of you who have enriched me; I'm thankful for that. I still look forward to popping in from time to time.

[reese]

linj2fly here is some more information about the kingdom of God that might be helpful.

CITIZENSHIP IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
11 29 89

An indepth study of the Kingdom of God and citizenship in that kingdom soon reveals a complex of related requirements, institutions, structures and offices of which the church is only a portion. There are four basic questions that every person in quest of the truth must seek to answer:
1. What is the kingdom of God?
2. What are the qualifications for citizenship?
3. How is citizenship conferred?
4. What are the blessings, powers and privileges?

THE FIRST QUESTION: What is the kingdom of God?

There is no simple answer to this question and therefore no simple definition for the Kingdom of God. We must define the kingdom as it exists in various situations.

There is always some representation of the kingdom of God on the earth.
1. In the depths of apostasy it may be no more than a single author¬ized person, in which case he could be viewed as the kingdom of god on earth (TPJS 271). He's not the whole kingdom, he's only a part of it. And so it has been through most of the earth's history. Sometimes the extant part of the kingdom is only a small group of people, a remnant, or a church, but one day the stone shall roll forth to fill the entire earth as Daniel foretold (Dan 2:31 45).

2. Some say the LDS church is the kingdom of God. That statement is largely inaccurate. It is only a portion of the kingdom even though, as at present, it's all there is of the kingdom on the face of the earth. One might ask what evidence there is for this conclusion. The evidence is:

a. The book of Revelation Chapter 12 speaks of a woman that brings forth a child. In Joseph's inspired version, Rev. 12: the woman is identified as the church, and the child as the kingdom of God. Why did Joseph add these identities if not to assure us that the kingdom of God grows out of the church but is a separate entity.

b. In Jesus's discussion with Nicodemus (Jon 3:3 5) he makes it plain that one must be born of the water (baptism of water) and of the Spirit (baptism of fire) to enter the kingdom of God. Most people in the church do not even know what the baptism of fire is. If we do not know what it is, we have not experienced it; hence simply becoming a member of the church does not constitute citizenship in the kingdom of God. There are some who have been born again and they alone constitute the citizenry of the kingdom of God on earth.


c. When Joseph Smith implemented the fullness of the kingdom of God (which he did, but the fullness was soon lost to us) the organization was as follows:I had to take the diagram out as it would not show correctly.

The kingdom of God exists eternally and will eventually reign supreme on the earth. This is Zion. For the present however Zion is confined to the pure in heart who, having been baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost, are born again and enter the kingdom of God per Jon 3:3 5. Zion, the full kingdom of God, exists even now but is only visible and tangible to those who are born again, those to whom the Kingdom is given as expressed in D&C 29:1 8, 38:7 15 & 45:1.

THE SECOND QUESTION: What are the qualifications for citizenship?

The qualifications for citizenship in the kingdom of God are few and rewarding within themselves. There will be temporal sorrow in the natural man, but eternal rejoicing in the spiritual being, the rightful heir and that is the reward. The Qualifications are:

• Repentance Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within us (Luk 17:21). Locked away, deep within us, is a prisoner, an exile of the kingdom of God, a rightful heir; his domain seized by a usurper, the natural man, who corrupts that domain with worldliness. From prison the rightful heir pleads with his dominion,"cast out the usurper! repent! and accept me." Repentance is the highway to the kingdom of God (III Nep 9:22). Not just to stop doing what we shouldn't and start doing what we should, but to change our minds and our desires. To love everyone and hate the world, to have no will born of the flesh but to have the mind and the will of God. Desiring his desires ourselves.


• Knowledge of God Joseph Smith once said, "If we do not God we do not know ourselves." and if we don't know ourselves we certainly don't know what we shall be nor where we're going. We may have some vague or general idea like the "Celestial beings in the Celestial Kingdom" but such vague concepts have not the power to compel us beyond our worldly penchants. When we truly understand the revel¬ations of the scriptures we will throw away the world, strip our¬selves naked of worldly "stuff", see the world as the restraining prison it really is, and hate it. We shall long for the kingdom of God and pray pleadingly, unceasingly for its advent in our lives. Consider the deep significance of the following scriptures:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. (Jon 17:3).

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is. (I Jon 3:2).

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God and the spirit of God dwelleth in you"? (I Cor 3:16 17).

... as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God. (II Cor 6:16).

. . . . yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples..." (D&C 93:35).

• A broken heart and contrite spirit Inwardly our feelings and our attitudes must be reconciled with the divine nature. We must be humbled in total aware of our nothingness before God (Mosi 4:2 5&11), and viewing our worthless and fallen state become broken hearted for our sins and repent. "But blessed are the poor who are pure in heart, whose hearts are broken and whose spirits are contrite for they shall see the kingdom of God coming in power and great glory unto their deliverance. (D&C 56:17 18). This is one of the two great sacrifices required. "And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost (III Nep 9:20 also 12:19). (also II Nep 2:7 & D&C 56:18).

• Sacrifice of all earthly things The second great sacrifice required is the sacrifice of all things stipulated in "The Lectures on Faith" Lecture 6 par. 7: All material things, honors of men, desires of the flesh. If the previously mentioned sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit has been accomplished this sacrifice will be accomplished, without thought or calculation, and it will not seem to have been a sacrifice at all; for we shall hate the world and all of its trappings, its honors and its substance.

It is apparent from the above that the qualifications for citizenship in the kingdom of God, for the baptism of fire and for the spiritual rebirth are the same. The gate to the straight and narrow path to eternal life spoken of by Nephi (II Nep 31:13 21) is also the gate to the kingdom of God just as Jesus assured Nicodemus (Jon 3:3 5).

THE THIRD QUESTION: How is membership conferred?
Citizenship in the kingdom of God is conferred by ordinances, ordination, instruction, covenants, and sealing.

• Ordinances: the second anointings administered by mortal hands in the temple (Ref. temple drama "... called up and anointed kings and queens, priests and priestesses) and the baptism of fire adminis¬tered by the Lord personally (III Nep 12:1).

• Ordination for men and women: Kings and queens, priests and priest¬esses (ref. Temple drama, Rev 5:10, TPJS p. 370, D&C 76:52 56) in the Holy Order of the Priesthood (II Nep 6:2, Alma 4:20, 5:44 & 13:6 12). This ordination is administered by the Lord personally (D&C 50:17 & 26 30, 84:38 42). See also D&C 77:11, ordination of the 144 thousand.

• Instruction: God will personally teach us and administer the oath and covenant of the priesthood (D&C 84:38 42 & 48).

• Sealing: by the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:52 53, 88:3).

THE FOURTH QUESTION: What are the blessings, powers and privileges?
For those to whom the kingdom is given there are a number of marvelous benefits to be realized:

The spiritual gifts become common (Moro 10:8 26, 84:62 76 &35:8 14)
• The truth of all things (Jon 14:26, I Jon 2:20 & 27, II Nep 32:3 5, Hel 9:41, Eth 12:21, Moro 10:25, D&C 39:6, 93:28)

• Possess all things (D&C 50:27 28, 76:55 59, 78:19 22)

• Membership in the church of the firsrborn (D&C 76:52 54, 77:11, 107:18 19)

• Zion and Zion's economy even now (D&C 64:33 36). The Lord admonish¬es us to seek the kingdom where all of our temporal needs shall be fulfilled (Mat 6:19 34 & III Nep 13:19 34). But the laborer in Zion must labor for Zion (II Nep 26:31), we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:19 24, III Nep 13:19 24.

[linj2fly]

Thanks col...do you have a link so i can look at the diagram?

[shadow]

I am painfully aware of my weaknesses, including pride. However, your inability to recognize the pride in your own words is both astonishing, yet expected.

Hmm, so you tout that you're not some silly little sheep but that you're a "free thinker" (whatever that is ) ) then when the words of the Lord are placed before you as an FYI that say being a "sheep" is actually a good thing you call me out as being prideful? Why, because I posted a scripture that contradicted your "status"? The funny thing is you then you go on some lengthy diatribe about how the saints in Utah are lousy. I guess you find what you're looking for O:-)

I love Fridays! :ymparty:

[laronius]

Just as our bodies are tabernacles of our spirits and give them expression, so to is the "church" the tabernacle of God's kingdom. The church represents the physical structure or outward appearance of God's kingdom. It includes the body of officers and offices that lead and direct us, the organization of stakes, wards, branches etc, the missionary program, bishops storehouses, ward organizations (primary, YM, YW etc)... The kingdom is the spirit at work that makes it all possible and gives all of these things life. It is the perfecting process that goes on in each of our lives as we fill our callings and apply the principles of the gospel. It is living by the spirit as we move forward the Lord's work.

[reese]

Thanks col...do you have a link so i can look at the diagram?

I will get back to you with a link. It is simple really. At the top is Jesus Christ, under him is Joseph Smith(as President of the high priesthood), under Joseph is an "exculsive priesthood council probably 6 in number"(not defined well historically). Then under these three it is divided into two arms. One being the ecclesiastical arm of the kingdom with the president of the church and the quorum of the 12 apostles. The other arm being the political arm of the kingdom with a presiding councilman and the council of fifty.

[Matthew.B]

I am painfully aware of my weaknesses, including pride. However, your inability to recognize the pride in your own words is both astonishing, yet expected.

Hmm, so you tout that you're not some silly little sheep but that you're a "free thinker" (whatever that is ) ) then when the words of the Lord are placed before you as an FYI that say being a "sheep" is actually a good thing you call me out as being prideful? Why, because I posted a scripture that contradicted your "status"? The funny thing is you then you go on some lengthy diatribe about how the saints in Utah are lousy. I guess you find what you're looking for O:-)

I love Fridays! :ymparty:

There is no love in this comment, or in your previous comments to Glenn in this thread.

If you want to know who the real wolves are, it is those who make a mock of their brother, or exploit their weaknesses, or treat them lightly or cruelly; a wolf magnifies himself against his brother and says to his soul "bow down, that I may go over". A wolf makes a mountain out of a molehill, a big deal out of a small offense, and wrinkles smooth discussion.

Real wolves will come in all shapes and sizes and in every degree of public piety imaginable... Some wolves and shepherds say very similar things- one can only tell them apart by their fruits.

Before any of us begins pointing fingers, we need to look inward and see if we have offended our brothers or sisters today and ask their forgiveness with a sincere heart.

Wolves are those who refuse to do this. Sheep do this. There is a point in every disciple's life where they are in serious doubt as to the status of their own soul, and whether they are really the in the fold of the LORD or not. Mocking Glenn for what he's said is Satan's way of doing things, not Christ's.

[A Random Phrase]

MatthewB, thumbs up. Well said.

[kingbmm]

Almost everyone (including apostate/ fundementalist LDS) is claiming to follow the Savior - yet the various controversies revolve around if the First Presidency & 12 Apostles still have authority & divine revelation to lead Christ's church; hence Stephen Robinson's comment to follow the Church, it's leaders, with a deep conviction and correct understanding of the Gospel.

Perfectly said.