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Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 2:18 am
by Seek the Truth
I do not pretend to understand your view fully yet Ashley I am of course new and I appreciate your views.

I do not assume people are in different camps, that is sort of how politics works a lot of the time but I wouldn't do that here.

I have only noticed that some people react to the word apostasy as if it is invalid. It is not. While it should be not thrown around casually it is a valid thing that I think should be discussed. If I was unknowingly in an apostate state I would hope someone would point that out.

I don't think we're all Korihors.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 3:48 am
by Seek the Truth
ajax wrote: You know what he speaks of Ben. The very tendency for us to look to the brethren for everything. To set them up as demi-gods. To hang on every word. To attend their birthday parties. This is very mormon.
But you've swept aside all the valid scripture presented by Ben.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 4:02 am
by Seek the Truth
Glenn wrote:
Mortal Men/Women = very imperfect
The Church (As administered by Mortals) = still imperfect
The Gospel of Jesus Christ = Perfect
Of course when one says the "church" that can mean different things, just as the word Israel means a number of different things. Church can be the membership, just as the word Israel is used to represent a group of peoples.

Yet Christ in D&C 30 proclaims that the Church is true, his words. Jesus found the church to be true in at least one way the word is used. How can it be true and imperfect at the same time?

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 8:00 am
by marc
BUMP
coachmarc wrote:Image
Just because it's so darn funny! :))

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 8:28 am
by Jason
AshleyB wrote:Well none of us are going to get it right 100 percent of the time. That is why its called opinion. :D So under your definition we would all be korihors. We all teach the doctrines of men mingled with scripture. Every single one of us. And anyone who thinks otherwise are full of themselves to boot.

This is why at the end of the day the Lord judges by the intent of our hearts. Korihor was bad not just because he taught false doctrine but because he did it purposefully and his heart was bad.
Look up Korihor's accusations against church leadership (and government at that time) about enriching themselves at the expense of the people and compare it to Rock's comments about church leadership and tithing funds....looks pretty similar to me.

To each their own though....

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 11:27 am
by AshleyB
coachmarc wrote:BUMP
coachmarc wrote:Image
Just because it's so darn funny! :))
:)) :)) :)) I have never seen that one before coachmarc. lol

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 11:46 am
by ajax
Seek the Truth wrote:
ajax wrote: You know what he speaks of Ben. The very tendency for us to look to the brethren for everything. To set them up as demi-gods. To hang on every word. To attend their birthday parties. This is very mormon.
But you've swept aside all the valid scripture presented by Ben.
Seek, to me there is a difference between supporting the brethren and being overly dependent on them.
President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.(TPJS pg. 237)

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 14th, 2012, 7:00 pm
by SmallFarm
coachmarc wrote:BUMP
coachmarc wrote:Image
Just because it's so darn funny! :))
LOL that's what I feel like sometimes :))

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: December 15th, 2012, 9:19 pm
by Nomad
Hold to the truth that has stood for time.........

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: April 15th, 2013, 2:46 pm
by AGStacker
Legion wrote:
AshleyB wrote:I will say I have not read this whole thread. I am pretty familiar with the Pure Mormonism blog. Regardless of the flavor of Rock's message it impacts me how I allow it to. It's not that I don't see or understand where you guys are coming from. You could be right and he may have some resentments that he needs to work through. But, for myself I won't make that judgement call because I dont really know his heart. But regardless of the flavor of his message it doesn't mean that the things he states are not true either. But this that I posted in another thread explains how I see it.

As long as a person is grounded in Christ then when a person comes across a blog like Rock's it won't do anything to sway them against the brethren. Because they will already have realistic expectations about them and their human condition. I personally believe that if a person sees them in a realistic light then those things won't cause harm. If it does spiritually harm them in their testimony's then they are probably in need of re-evaluating where their Faith is placed and why. If they begin to have doubts about the gospel because of the flaws of men and institutions then is that something we can really blame someone like Rock for? For writing a blog and stating his opinions? Or should we recognize that, that person likely built up false ideas and expectations regarding apostles and prophets? If they are guilty of some form of idolatry and they likely are if they are willing to leave the church over it, then the blame resides with themselves.
False ideas and expectation regarding apostles and prophets??? Or believing arm of the flesh men who have apostatized like Rock?

Play with fire and you usually get burned....
I think your idea of apostles and prophets is false. The Lord only makes men and women apostles and prophets and not a calling within an institution.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: April 15th, 2013, 3:13 pm
by Original_Intent
The higher the calling in the church, the greater the service they are required to render the rest of us. They are not there to be worshipped or venerated. The only way you can determine if they are acting in the role of the prophet is NOT the magic words "Thus saith the Lord" it is the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

Even if somebody outside their stewardship says something as moved on by the spirit, and the spirit confirms to you, then I think you are an absolute fool if you then fall back on "I can ignore that, I am not inside his stewardship so it doesn't apply." By the same token, I believe you are also a complete fool if you blindly follow someone just because you are under their stewardship, and believe that even if you follow them in error the Lord will bless you for it. I mean, the crucifiers of Jesus have that excuse, "We were just following orders." True, the Lord prayed to the Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do." But forgiving does not mean blessing. How much better if they had been in tune and known what they were being ordered to do and refused?

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: February 27th, 2014, 10:09 pm
by Jason
Original_Intent wrote:The higher the calling in the church, the greater the service they are required to render the rest of us. They are not there to be worshipped or venerated. The only way you can determine if they are acting in the role of the prophet is NOT the magic words "Thus saith the Lord" it is the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

Even if somebody outside their stewardship says something as moved on by the spirit, and the spirit confirms to you, then I think you are an absolute fool if you then fall back on "I can ignore that, I am not inside his stewardship so it doesn't apply." By the same token, I believe you are also a complete fool if you blindly follow someone just because you are under their stewardship, and believe that even if you follow them in error the Lord will bless you for it. I mean, the crucifiers of Jesus have that excuse, "We were just following orders." True, the Lord prayed to the Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do." But forgiving does not mean blessing. How much better if they had been in tune and known what they were being ordered to do and refused?
The Brethren are appointed spokesmen for God. They have the Priesthood keys and that chain of authority is well documented from the Restoration forward. The Spirit testifies of the truthfulness of their words. Even the apostates say that they are good men.

They are building the Kingdom of God one temple at a time throughout the world and fulfilling prophesy as we speak. The missionary force is doubling (double the calls per week prior to age announcement). No unhallowed hand shall stop the work from progressing. The work for the dead continues morning through night (24 hours a day around the globe).

Wolves can attempt to criticize and detract from their work. Wolves can attempt to detract from their doctrine. Wolves can attempt to sway the righteous. Wolves can sink themselves to hell.

But the reality is the Priesthood keys are here to stay until turned over to Adam in the Great Council at Adam-ondi-Ahman.
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/dan/7.22?lang=eng#21" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/ ... ang=eng#18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Joseph Smith gave] instructions respecting the different offices, and the necessity of every individual acting in the sphere allotted him or her, and filling the several offices to which they are appointed. He spoke of the disposition of many men to consider the lower offices in the Church dishonorable, and to look with jealous eyes upon the standing of others who are called to preside over them; that it was the folly and nonsense of the human heart for a person to be aspiring to other stations than those to which they are appointed of God for them to occupy; that it was better for individuals to magnify their respective callings. … Everyone should aspire only to magnify his own office and calling.
History of the Church, 4:603, 606; paragraph divisions altered; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 28, 1842, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Eliza R. Snow
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/dan/2 ... ang=eng#34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-n ... ang=eng#38" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How shall God come to the rescue of this generation? He will send Elijah the prophet. The law revealed to Moses in Horeb never was revealed to the children of Israel as a nation. Elijah shall reveal the covenants to seal the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers.

The anointing and sealing is to be called, elected and made sure.
Teachings, p. 323.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of ... lang=eng#4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/eph/4 ... ang=eng#10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We believe that no man can administer salvation through the gospel, to the souls of men, in the name of Jesus Christ, except he is authorized from God, by revelation, or by being ordained by some one whom God hath sent by revelation, as it is written by Paul, Romans 10:14, ‘And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent?’ And I will ask, how can they be sent without a revelation, or some other visible display of the manifestation of God? And again, Hebrews 5:4, ‘And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.’—And I would ask, how was Aaron called, but by revelation?
Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, p. 54
The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,

Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.

I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is ctrue, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... ang=eng#37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When this gathering is held, the world will not know of it; the members of the Church at large will not know of it, yet it shall be preparatory to the coming in the clouds of glory of our Savior Jesus Christ as the Prophet Joseph Smith has said. The world cannot know of it. The Saints cannot know of it—except those who officially shall be called into this council—for it shall precede the coming of Jesus Christ as a thief in the night, unbeknown to all the world.
Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, Way to Perfection, pp. 290–91.
Some may wonder why General Authorities speak of the same things from conference to conference. As I study the utterances of the prophets through the centuries, their pattern is very clear. We seek, in the words of Alma, to teach people “an everlasting hatred against sin and iniquity.” We preach “repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Alma 37:32, 33.) We praise humility. We seek to teach people “to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Alma 37:33.) We teach our people “to never be weary of good works.” (Alma 37:34.)

Prophets say the same things because we face basically the same problems. Brothers and sisters, the solutions to these problems have not changed. It would be a poor lighthouse that gave off a different signal to guide every ship entering a harbor. It would be a poor mountain guide who, knowing the safe route up a mountainside, took his trusting charges up unpredictable and perilous paths from which no traveler returns.

I feel a special urge today to invite all people everywhere to investigate the restored gospel of Jesus Christ with its doctrines of salvation and of exaltation.

To all who hear my voice this day I proclaim in all sincerity and truth that this, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is literally the authorized kingdom of God upon the earth today.

The Master and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ himself, stands at the head of this Church in all his majesty and glory. He directs his affairs through his divinely appointed and sustained prophets and apostles.

As one of the humblest of these, I raise my voice from the very tops of these beautiful mountains to declare that this Church of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as “Mormonism,” is the power of God unto salvation.

Baptism into Christ’s true church by proper authority opens the doors for exaltation in the eternal kingdoms of glory, exaltation to be earned by repentance, by living righteously, keeping the commandments of the Lord, and service to one’s fellowmen.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel for all the world and for all people. We proclaim the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind. We proclaim the divine sonship of Jesus Christ and him crucified, that his divine sacrifice was a ransom for all mankind. We bear witness of his resurrection and that he lives today, standing at the right hand of God, to guide the affairs of his earthly kingdom.

As you investigate the Church of Jesus Christ, you will find it is not a religion claiming succession from those who shared Christ’s earthly ministry; nor is it a Protestant religion. It is a divine restoration of Christ’s earthly kingdom, organized, as was his primitive church, with “apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc.” (A of F 1:6.)

In your study of this restored church, you will find herein the divinely restored powers and authorities of the holy priesthood. By this divine authority, and in no other way, the saving ordinances of the gospel are performed and are made binding for all time and eternity. I testify this to all of you who hear my voice.

The rewards are priceless for those honest in heart who seek the truth.

The Lord said: “Hearken, O ye people … to whom the kingdom has been given; hearken ye and give ear to him who laid the foundation of the earth, who made the heavens and all the hosts thereof, and by whom all things were made which live, and move, and have a being.

“And again I say, hearken unto my voice, lest death shall overtake you; in an hour when ye think not the summer shall be past, and the harvest ended, and your souls not saved.

“Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him. …

“And even so I have sent mine everlasting covenant into the world, to be a light to the world, and to be a standard for my people, and for the Gentiles to seek to it, and to be a messenger before my face to prepare the way before me.

“Wherefore, come ye unto it, and with him that cometh I will reason as with men in days of old, and I will show unto you my strong reasoning.” (D&C 45:1–3, 9, 10.)

This is the restored church. This is the kingdom of God upon the earth, for it is Jesus Christ who organized this kingdom.

“And in the days of these kings [that is, the group of European nations] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

“Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.” (Dan. 2:44–45.)

This is a revelation concerning the history of the world, when one world power would supersede another until there would be numerous smaller kingdoms to share the control of the earth.

And it was in the days of these kings that power would not be given to men, but the God of heaven would set up a kingdom—the kingdom of God upon the earth, which should never be destroyed nor left to other people.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was restored in 1830 after numerous revelations from the divine source; and this is the kingdom, set up by the God of heaven, that would never be destroyed nor superseded, and the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that would become a great mountain and would fill the whole earth.

History unfolded and the world powers came and went after ruling the world for a little season, but in the early nineteenth century the day had come. The new world of America had been discovered and colonized and was being settled. Independence had been gained and a constitution approved and freedom given to men, and people were now enlightened to permit truth to be established and to reign.

No king or set of rulers could divine this history; but a young, pure, and worthy prophet could receive a revelation from God.

There was purpose for this unveiling of the history of the world so that the honest in heart might be looking forward to its establishment, and numerous good men and women, knowing of the revelations of God and the prospects for the future, have looked forward to this day.

In quick succession there came other visitors. Peter, James, and John—men who last held the keys of the kingdom, the power of the priesthood, and the blessings of eternity—appeared to the young man and restored the power and authority which they had held on earth.

John the Baptist, beheaded by Herod but now a resurrected being, returned to the earth and laid hands on the Prophet Joseph to give him the Aaronic Priesthood.

The great Moses of antiquity returned to the earth, a celestial being, and restored the keys of the gathering of Israel.

Elijah, the prophet of the eternal work for the dead, returned to make way and prepare for the great temple work and for the restoration of the gospel to those who had died without an opportunity to hear it.

The organizers of the Church were told by the Lord:

“No one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.” (D&C 28:2.)

And the prophet Moroni appeared unto Joseph and spent long hours explaining the peopling of the American continents by the Lehites and also the Book of Mormon, which would be unearthed and translated. This book would be a further testimony of the coming of Christ to America and would give testimony that Jesus was the Christ, the Eternal God, for both Jew and gentile. This record, the Book of Mormon, would help to establish the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

These were the beginnings of accomplishment; and the gospel was revealed, line upon line and precept upon precept, and truths were restored, and power was given and authority was revealed, and gradually enough light and enough people were there for the organization of this kingdom of God which Daniel saw two and a half millennia ago.

The Church was organized. Small it was, with only six members, compared to the stone cut out of the mountain without hands which would break in pieces other nations and which would roll forth and fill the whole earth.

Rough days were ahead for the little kingdom. Prophets were assassinated. Persecutions and drivings have taken place and have vexed the fast-growing little church. A great exodus to the mountains of the West was directed by revelation. The colonization of the West occurred. Great tribulations were suffered. Blood was spilled. Hunger has taken its lives, but today the stone rolls forth to fill the earth.

Twenty-three thousand young missionaries proclaim these truths to thousands of people in their home areas. The gospel spreads to the nations of the earth in its approach toward the promise made by God through Daniel to fill the whole earth, and numerous people of all nationalities and tongues are accepting the gospel in many nations, and the Church and kingdom grow and develop, and we say to you and testify to you that it shall, in Daniel’s words, “never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people … but it shall stand forever.” (Dan. 2:44.)

Numerous revelations have made clear to the members that eternal life, which is their goal, is available by having the ordinances performed and then by living the commandments of God.

We give these truths to you, not in arrogance or worldly pride, but with a deep sincerity and a kindly offer—the gospel without price, the gospel of truth, the gospel of salvation and exaltation.

I know it is true. I know it is divine. I know it is the little stone that was cut out of a mountain without hands. I know it will fill the earth as prophesied and commanded by the Savior Jesus Christ when, in his last moments on earth, he said to his eleven apostles, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature”—to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. (See Mark 16:15.) I know it is true from the birth of Adam to the days of Daniel to the days of Joseph Smith and to this day. I know it is true and divine. We offer it to you without price. We promise to you life eternal if you will follow its precepts strictly. And I bear this witness to you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: February 28th, 2014, 9:11 pm
by MrScience
Legion wrote:In follow up to my original post on this thread and in light of the fact that many here seem to be perusing and drawing conclusions from the information posted on the blog - Pure Mormanism....I thought I would add some additional research as well as perspectives that sum up his published works.
Rock stands as a unique voice, warning the Saints about relying too much on the institutional church headquartered in Salt Lake City and its administrative leadership at the expense of developing our own relationship with God through scripture, revelation, and the Spirit of God. In the interview, we touch on a few topics including: the error of institutional infallibility and blind obedience, the nature of true revelation mediated through prophets, and how to maintain faith in Jesus Christ independent of religious institutions.

I think Rock’s unique take is an important and desperately needed voice in Modern Mormonism. We have all been taught that the Church and the Gospel are codependent and inseparable. As such, it is common for Mormons who take issue with certain aspects of Church policy, history and perceived past crimes to allow those grievances to influence their relationship to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Rock Waterman’s approach to this situation allows us as Mormons to embrace what we feel is true and right about the Gospel while setting aside aspects of our Mormon experience that are not in harmony with our values and ethics.
http://athoughtfulfaith.org/2012/09/23/ ... mormonism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now I didn’t take issue with Roger’s post. However, nestled in his comments was a hyperlink that would plant the seed that ultimately change my worldview forever:
In
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... dermined-a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :)) nd.html

If you don’t take the time to read this lengthy article (or if you’re too scared) this post was written by Rock Waterman, a prominent anti-establishment LDS Blogger. His comments mostly surround the research of Daymon Smith, a LDS cultural anthropologist who had apparently written some sort of exposé about his time working in the Church Office Building. Waterman touched on a few of the issues from Smith’s book, including the real motives behind the big “Flooding the Earth with the Book of Mormon” push in the 1980s, the City Creek Mall, and other disturbing revelations about the inner workings of the corporate church. The post dealt its criticism toward the Church and the brethren with a heavy hand and a tone laden with sarcasm.
http://peepstone.wordpress.com/tag/rock-waterman/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My analysis is quite a bit different. What I see is basically post after post seemingly designed to cast doubt on church leadership (couple samples drawn at random) -

The Best Conference Talk You Never Read
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ad_13.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Preaching False Doctrine From The General Conference Pulpit
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... neral.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... d-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Infallible Authority, Chapter Eight
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/ ... eight.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What Is The Law Of The Land?
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... -land.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Go Ahead And Skip That Temple Wedding
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/ ... dding.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why Mormon History is Not What They Say
http://mormonmatters.org/2010/08/02/why ... -they-say/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Follow The Prophet: True or False?
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2009/ ... false.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With a common result -
I find this all very disturbing to the point I'm not sure I can stay in the Church. I've been inactive about four months, due to various reasons. While I'm out, I'm studying other things, like this eye-opening blog, and seeing that the Church has feet of clay! It seems like the leaders are on a power-trip, setting themselves up on Rameumptoms, looking down on us poor deluded little saints, even boasting that their words are more important than revelation, or a personal relationship with Christ! We are oppressed with rules and regulations that, to me, don't make much sense anymore, if they ever did. And, I find that the scriptures are property of the Corporation of the President of the Church, and that even my temple recommend is a Contract with a Corporation and the property of the Church. At this point, if I went back to church, I would probably be soon excommunicated anyway. So, I don't know if I will go back or not. I'm not so sure what to believe anymore. It just doesn't look like Jesus has much to do with it, or even like what Joseph Smith meant it to be.
Rock has done an outstanding article! I KNOW that many of you have given up on God, because of your anger against the church! PLEASE, I HUMBLY am asking you to read this amazing piece by Rock and you WILL know that the Mormon church of today IS the GREATEST conspiracy of evil men, after Joseph Smith!

I know how you feel about the church and Joseph Smith. So did I until 3 weeks ago. I am telling you that Joseph Smith was a prophet and was assassinated so that Brigham Young could push his evil doctrine of 2 gods and polygamy. Please pray as I have, and feel again that God lives and loves you all very much. I have died 5 times- I usually say 4 for a very personal reason.Even after walking with Him, during 2 of these near death experiences- I still mocked Joseph Smith and The Book of Mormon, until just 3 weeks ago.
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/profile/RockWaterman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/xn/de ... ment:23908" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/xn/de ... ment:23145" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.p ... ly/365010/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.p ... ly/325488/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So is the guy even still a member? Active? Pay any tithing???
Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment.
http://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Comment by Rock Waterman on April 28, 2011 7:04 am

Excellent! I can’t praise you enough for this piece.

Some years ago I was told by someone in a position to know that at the Church Office Building is an employee whose primary job it is to respond to IRS requests for individual member’s tithing payments. And this employee complies to these requests even though they are never made by court order.

The IRS uses the information they get from individual’s tithing records to bolster their case against someone they may be going after. As the thinking goes, if we can learn how much tithing the mark pays, that is almost certainly ten percent of his total gross earnings.

I’ve really had it with this corporate shill. Thanks again for the excellent reminder that the modern Church today is not serving God.
http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/chi-7/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Unlike everybody else, I don't "know" the church is true, I don't "know" Joseph Smith was a prophet, I don't "know" anything. I have my beliefs, but those beliefs are constantly subject to change as knew information comes available. If I "know" anything, it's that self-assured certainty is one of the surest ways to prevent arriving at the truth of anything.

What I do is simply share my discoveries and opinions. Oh, and I have no ambitions to start my own church, in case you were wondering.

...

Moving on, it's apparent you did not listen closely to the podcast because you assert that I would have supported Hinckley had he given the thumbs up on the attack of Iraq. As the four of us discussed here, Hinckley in effect did give his tacit approval, and I'm pretty sure I was quite vocal in my disgust for what he called his "opinion."

It was clear as glass to me AT THE TIME that Hinckley was dead wrong, as I was somewhat familiar with the situation in the mideast because, unlike Hinckley, I had been reading the real expert's warnings against an invasion.

Hinckley, rather than seek the opinions of those experts who warned against the attack, or even to ask God about his thoughts on the subject (there's a novel idea!) instead sided with the politicians, telling us that they should be trusted because they knew more about these things, and after all, no one can foretell the future.

That conference talk was pretty much the last straw for me. I do not sustain as prophets men who habitually declare that they cannot see into the future.

...

I don't fault those who look at the LDS Church (TM) of today and cry "enough!" It's getting to be very near an abomination, but many haven't caught on. Those who have usually walk away, and who can blame them?

I look at what I see as the core theologies, and find them of value. It has nothing to do with staying in the Church. It only has to do with embracing that which is good and letting the rest go. I suppose where most get confused is in thinking that I'm still "in the Church."

Well, I know a whole lot of PostMo's who still attend weekly to keep up appearances. I've been three times in three years. I believe what I consider some of the stuff about Mormonism. That doesn't mean I support the corporation that has taken my church over, nor do I sustain men who CALL themselves prophets, seers and revelators, yet who never prophecy, never reveal anything, and who can't see Jack.

Had Hinckley stepped up to the pulpit that day and denounced that unscriptural and unconstitutional invasion, I would have been pleased, because it would have told me that the President of the Church was at least standing in the gap and speaking truth to power as was a primary duty of prophets of old.

But he didn't. He hemmed and he hawed and he vacillated to the point that you couldn't tell where he stood. In the end, he gave us, not the word of the Lord, but his OPINION, of all things! Who in hell tunes into conference to get the Prophet's opinion?! I thought he was supposed to relay the will of the Lord. (I noticed that he quoted from the beginning of section 98, but he made no mention of verse 33, which was the very verse salient to the situation).

Had Hinckley's opinion been contrary to the written word of God, he would have tipped his hand as a fraud. But he was too cowardly to stand against the political establishment. So in the end he said nothing. That was one of the most useless conference talks of all time.

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/02/22/ ... mormonism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My thoughts......
I find this post from over a year ago compelling considering the current discussions about Rock Waterman and his recent conversation with his bishop.

Rock has his own paradigm and a right to his own opinions. He does however have an agenda, which perused has brought him to this point. It sounds as if he is happy with the place he is in. From his past writings one would assume that was where he wanted to be. May his truth give him peace.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 2nd, 2014, 12:39 pm
by Jason
Definitely not a shocker...

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 2nd, 2014, 7:48 pm
by Bee Prepared
I have a grandson in Capetown South Africa, and one in Sopporo Japan. ( He actually leaves tomorrow.) Both these boys are 18 and willing
to give up 2 years of their life to teach the good news of the gospel. Missionaries are handing out copies of the Book of Mormon all over the world.

May I say that we all have struggles in one way or another. How do we find peace? Turn away from the darkness and into the light.

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. . . . Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27).

I beseech some of you to listen to what you are saying! It causes me great sadness.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 2nd, 2014, 8:45 pm
by A Random Phrase
Bee Prepared wrote:Missionaries are handing out copies of the Book of Mormon all over the world.
And this is the most important thing, because it is in the book that the key to Eternal life is found. Even if no church exists, the knowledge hidden in that book can bring us to Christ, to the Father, to Zion.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 2nd, 2014, 11:30 pm
by MrScience
Bee Prepared wrote:I have a grandson in Capetown South Africa, and one in Sopporo Japan. ( He actually leaves tomorrow.) Both these boys are 18 and willing
to give up 2 years of their life to teach the good news of the gospel. Missionaries are handing out copies of the Book of Mormon all over the world.

May I say that we all have struggles in one way or another. How do we find peace? Turn away from the darkness and into the light.

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. . . . Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27).

I beseech some of you to listen to what you are saying! It causes me great sadness.
Bee Prepared, just what do was it that I said that causes you great sadness?

If you want to see sadness look at this. I know of a sweet sister who has lived her life in the church, the first 20 or so years in the mission field. She has two children serving missions with the desire to bring people to Christ with the good news of the gospel. Another child is preparing her papers to serve for the same reason at this time.

A few months back with the purpose of helping her sister who was questioning things about church history she became involved in internet blogs such as Rock's and others. Now you have to understand, she is a tender faithful soul, not thick skinned like many on this forum. These things she has read and listened to have devastated her.

Many are looking for such things as are contained on these blogs to complete their own paradigms. Others enjoy the sharp wit displayed. Others view such things critically from their own past learning and sift out the things they don't accept. Others are deeply harmed by the harsh critical way authority and history are handled by those who display no loyalty or respect for what others hold as dear.

From what Rock said, he was asked why he wanted to be a member of the church. He has not been excommunicated. He expresses no regrets if it comes to that. His attitude appears to be rather snarky from his reaction. Even several years he seemingly joked about being excommunicated. I recognize the kind things he has done for the needy and his dear wife. But what about those who are being harmed by his harsh criticism. They are the Lord's children also. Who is looking out for them?

From your comments it seems like you feel I am casting judgment. From the statements of many it is felt church authorities are wrong to even question a persons right to put forth their agenda. I say, he or any other blogger has the right to their beliefs, they after all have agency. But with agency comes accountability. The church has that responsibility to check for that. With choice comes consequences.

Righteous judgment must be made for the protection of the innocent in all fields.

I ask you to consider the harm and pain done to the tender heart of my friend. I pray for peace for her. In all the posts from Rock I have listened to and read, and they have been more than a few, none have brought me closer to Christ, only sorrow that things are viewed there in such a negative light.

I recognize that each has his own opinion which he has a right to. I give you your right. Please allow me the same.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 3rd, 2014, 12:19 am
by Leejae
Original_Intent wrote:You can't preach repentance if you don't teach people what they need to repent of.
Taking it even one more step back...you can't preach repentance if you haven't repented yourself. Repentance has occurred when you have received the Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost, have been redeemed from the Fall, and reconciled to God. You can't help others see their way out of a pit if you are still in it. You know Christ knows you when he has called you by name, and you know him because you know his voice. You know when you've become a sheep - there is no question.

I humbly suggest that people do some keyword searches in the Book of Mormon for the ordinance. Some good examples are King Benjamin's people, Enos, the Lamanites of Helaman 5 (the ones who received it and "knew it not" - because they didn't yet have language for/concept of the profound change that occurred), King Lamoni, King Lamoni's father...the Book of Mormon is full of instructions.

What do we need to repent of? The same thing Adam was required to repent of - the transgression in Eden. It has become popular to suggest that they just made a wise but difficult choice - or particularly that Eve was super smart and saw the truth. I reject that. The scriptures are clear that there was a deception/beguiling. And they are "types" for every one of us.

I believe the deception occurred when they effectively "turned from God" and hearkened unto the false priest who appeared there to offer them counsel...or in his own words: "religion." He offered the counsel of men mingled with scripture. They were LED, and therefore led astray. I wonder what might have happened if they had returned to God with what they'd heard for confirmation, before any action was taken.

When we decide to TURN to God, forsaking the arm of flesh, repenting of trusting anyone but him, we're on the right track.

Alma 42:12-14
Helaman 13:11

Moses 6:49-50
Moses 6:52

2 Ne 28:14
2 Ne 13:12

The receipt of the GIFT of the Holy Ghost in mortality is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of Christ. It is the rebirth that is required because once fallen, we are spiritually dead. (Alma 42:9 - cut off from the presence of the Lord = spiritual death) We are alive in Christ and have become sons/daughters once we have the Holy Ghost returned to us as a constant companion.

Alma 34:38
Moses 5:59-62!!

REBIRTH:
Alma 7:14
Alma 5:14
Moses 6:65
D&C 5:16

What are the effects? Several or many of the following:
--Pains and sorrow for sin being swept away
--Rejoicing
--No more disposition to do evil
--Scriptures opened to the understanding - mysterious passages made clear
--Feeling of being "quickened" or made alive in the "inner man"
--Literal sensation of burning/life in the heart that becomes a constant companion.
--sensation of being immersed in the Spirit starting at the head, moving through the body
--Prophesying
--Hearing the voice of the Lord to you
--Knowing your standing before God
--Knowing that you are a different being than you just were
--A great desire to declare repentance to others, now being on the other side of it, seeing that it is freely offered to all, and wanting to have loved ones and all men obtain it as well.
--anyone want to add anything?

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 3rd, 2014, 1:09 pm
by MrScience
:-o kLeejae

When I read your post I was not sure where it was coming from as it had nothing to do with the previous posts. As I studied it I came to see perhaps you were giving qualifications for being in the SHEEP fold.

These are the points I got through what you posted:

1. Only one who has repented can cry repentance.
2. The only way repentance can occur is if one has received the BFHG, been redeemed from the fall, and reconciled to God.
3. If this has not taken place, you are still in the pit and can do nothing to help others to get out of it.
4. You are a sheep when Christ has called you by name and you know His voice.
5. All who have not met these requirements have not repented and are wolves.
6. Only those who are on the other side of repentance can know truth and can cry repentance to us wolves.
7. We wolves have been beguiled. We have turned from God and harken unto false priests.
8. We must forsake the arm of flesh.
9. We are fallen and must become sheep.
10. Until we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and become a sheep, we are fallen and are spiritually dead.

From what I understand you are saying, the Atonement of Christ would have no effect in our lives.

From my understanding of the Gospel, to have the Atonement effective in our lives we must:

1. Have Faith in Christ.
2. REPENT OF OUR SINS.
3. Be Baptized and confirmed by one having AUTHORITY.
4. Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. Obey God's Commandments.
6. Receive Sacred Ordinances.
7. Strive to become like Christ.

As we do these things, through Christ's Atonement, we can return to live with Him and our Heavenly Father forever.

The Atonement is for all of us, every day. Repentance is not a one time thing, but a continual quest towards perfection. Th Atonement gives us forgiveness as many times as we repent. It is the eternal and everlasting path to return to God's presence. Through continual repentance we strive to become more like Christ. Our goal being to become like Christ so we can dwell with Him and our Heavenly Father.

We all continue to make mistakes. No one in mortality is beyond the law of repentance. We are saved through The Atonement of Christ. I give gratitude for this great gift..

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 3rd, 2014, 1:47 pm
by Leejae
Oh wow. Good grief MrScience. I hope everyone else here can see you have drawn conclusions that have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm not even sure how to respond to them. So I think I won't. Let the scriptures speak for themselves for those who have ears to hear.

For anyone else who is interested, D&C 131:6 states "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance." This doesn't mean get an education, or even that you must study out of the best books (because all have not faith). It means no man is saved without knowledge that he is saved. The testimonies of the Book of Mormon prophets confirm that they knew. The requirements are the same for everyone. We must obtain a sure witness from the Lord that we have been redeemed.

A wolf is just a wolf, unless he is in sheep's clothing. In which case he has intent to deceive. He is bent specifically on blinding the eyes and leading astray, preventing those who would from entering in at the gate. I don't know everyone around here, but I don't believe I've yet come across any comments I felt were other than sincere, whether correct or not.

But the LORD'S sheep know their shepherd. Several comments were on the subject of whether a person was a sheep or not. I thought I'd set some scriptures out there for whoever was interested. We all need to enter in at the gate...into the fold. The gate is the BF&HG. He employs no servant there. The news of the atonement is, it's FREELY OFFERED. It's available to everyone. We obtain it because of his attributes and perfection, not our own. Do we desire it? Then we need to ask for it!

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 3rd, 2014, 5:38 pm
by deep water
It is but a sad day when some little storm comes along and someones testimony is harmed. We can call out foul, foul, that person has harmed my testimony. Or we can look and ask, why am I so upset at someones testimony, that is not the same as mine. Once you build upon the ROCK, your testimony can not be shaken, come hell or high water. Or DEEP WATER he he he. If you want to cry foul, my advice is to seek truth, understand and straighten your Gospel knowledge. Other wise you get what you desired, earned, tears or no tears. It is a much, much, better thing that you cry your tears now, than in the next life.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 3rd, 2014, 6:40 pm
by MrScience
deep water wrote:It is but a sad day when some little storm comes along and someones testimony is harmed. We can call out foul, foul, that person has harmed my testimony. Or we can look and ask, why am I so upset at someones testimony, that is not the same as mine. Once you build upon the ROCK, your testimony can not be shaken, come hell or high water. Or DEEP WATER he he he. If you want to cry foul, my advice is to seek truth, understand and straighten your Gospel knowledge. Other wise you get what you desired, earned, tears or no tears. It is a much, much, better thing that you cry your tears now, than in the next life.
Such compassion you show. Your humor is less than Christlike. Who are you to challenge my testimony. Truth is truth. Kindness is kindness. I fail to see either here. I'll take my chances on my gospel knowledge. I've been working on it longer than you have been here on earth. This is indeed a sad sad day.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 3rd, 2014, 6:54 pm
by deep water
As much compassion as Nephi gave in 2 Nephi 33:14 when he states that if you have not partaken of the goodness of God, here in this life, then what he has written will condemn you, when you appear at the judgement bar of God.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 4th, 2014, 4:35 pm
by freedomforall
reese wrote:I realise that by posting this I am putting myself in the camp of the "wolves", but I just can't resist it. Jason you posted this from the puremormonism site:
Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment.
and then kingbmm quoted this from Stephen E. Robinson, who ever that is.
kingbmm wrote:
For all of us, our main defense against Satan’s deceptions must be a strong and abiding testimony that the Church is true. All may not be well in Zion (which is what the prophets said would be the case), but the Church is still true. It’s not anemic; it doesn’t need supplements. It’s not true if, and it’s not true but, and it’s not true except. It’s just true! Moreover, the Church is not off course; it’s not going too slow, and it’s not going too fast. Its leaders are not asleep, and they don’t need any uninvited help from the passengers to steer the boat.
I just can't help but see the glaring "philosophies of men mingled with scripture" being quoted right here on the same thread.
May 1998 New Era
Are Mormons Christians?
by Stephen E. Robinson

Of course we are Christians. Why would anyone say otherwise? Here are the facts.

If you live in Utah, you may be surprised. If you live where Latter-day Saints are a minority, you’ve probably heard it before—perhaps many times. But there are sincere people out there who believe the Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians. In fact, the accusation that we are not Christians is probably the most commonly heard criticism of the LDS Church and its doctrines today.

Why would anyone say such a thing? Isn’t the name of our church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do we not worship Christ? Is not the Book of Mormon another testament of Jesus Christ? How could anyone seriously doubt that Latter-day Saints are Christians?

The purpose of this article is to help you understand why some people make this accusation. Knowing that, perhaps you can be more comfortable and knowledgeable in dealing with such views when you hear them expressed. But remember that the spirit of contention is always un-Christian (see D&C 10:63). This article is meant to provide information and understanding rather than ammunition for disputes.

There are a number of arguments used supposedly to “prove” that we are not Christian. It is important to recognize that none of them have anything to do with whether or not Latter-day Saints believe in Jesus Christ. Rather, what they basically boil down to is this: Latter-day Saints are different from the other Christian churches. (We understand that these differences exist because traditional Christianity has wandered from the truth over the centuries, but other denominations see things otherwise.) Their arguments against the Latter-day Saints being Christian generally fall into six basic categories:
Exclusion by special definition

1 What is a Christian? The term is found three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16), but it is not defined in any of those passages. According to Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, the term Christian may be defined in a number of ways, but the most common is “one who believes or professes … to believe in Jesus Christ and the truth as taught by him … one whose life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ.” The second most common meaning is “a member of a church or group professing Christian doctrine or belief.”

Under either of these two definitions, Latter-day Saints qualify as Christians. However, if a special definition is created under which Christian means “only those who believe as I do,” then others might claim Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians—but all this would really mean is that while Mormons believe in Christ, we don’t believe exactly as they do. Excluding us in this way by inventing a special definition for the word Christian is like defining a duck as an aquatic bird with a broad, flat bill, webbed feet, and white feathers, and then concluding that mallards aren’t ducks because their feathers are the wrong color.

If the term Christian is used, as it is in standard English, to mean someone who accepts Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and the Savior of the world, then the charge that we aren’t Christians is false. However, if the word Christian is given an overly narrow definition, then it is merely a way of saying LDS Christians differ in some degree from other Christians. No one “owns” the term Christian or has the right to deny it to others who worship Jesus as the divine Son of God.
Exclusion by misrepresentation

2 Some people insist on condemning Latter-day Saints for doctrines the Saints don’t even believe. They say, in effect, “This is what you Mormons believe.” Then they recite something that is certainly not taught by the Latter-day Saints. It’s easy to make LDS beliefs seem absurd if critics can make up whatever they want and pass it off as LDS doctrine.

A good example of this kind of misrepresentation took place when the subject of the Latter-day Saint pioneers came up in my daughter Sarah’s school classroom a few years ago. One of her classmates said, “My daddy says Mormons are people who live in Utah and worship idols.” Sarah quickly answered back, “Well, I’m a Mormon, and we don’t worship idols.” But many of her classmates never did believe her, largely because they had already accepted the misrepresentation.

Another form of misrepresentation is to claim something is official LDS doctrine when it may merely be an individual opinion or even speculation. The official doctrine of the Latter-day Saints is clearly defined and readily accessible to all. Doctrines are official if they are found in the standard works of the Church, if they are sustained by the Church in general conference (D&C 26:2), or if they are taught by the First Presidency as a presidency. Policies and procedures are official whenever those who hold the keys and have been sustained by the Church to make them declare them so. Other churches claim the right to define and interpret their own doctrines and policies and to distinguish between official church teachings and the opinions of individual members. Surely the Latter-day Saints must be allowed the same privilege.
Name calling

3 Name calling has often been used in religious controversies. At one time, Catholics called Protestants “heretics,” and Protestants called Catholics “papists.” But this sort of tactic amounts to nothing more than saying, “Boo for your religion, and hurrah for mine.”

The negative term most frequently flung at the LDS is “cult,” a term which can suggest images of pagan priests and rituals. But the truth is there is no objective distinction by which a cult may be distinguished from a religion. Use of the term cult does not tell us what a religion is, only how it is regarded by the person using the term. It simply means “a religion I don’t like.”

Though non-LDS scholars have made many attempts to define a “cult” in a way that would distinguish it from a “religion,” to date every such attempt has failed. So far the major difficulty has been that any definition of “cult” that fits the LDS Church also fits New Testament Christianity! But that’s not bad company to be in.
Exclusion by tradition

4 It is sometimes argued that to be truly Christian, modern churches must accept both biblical Christianity and the traditional Christianity of later history. In other words, one must accept not just biblical doctrines, but also the centuries of historical development—the councils, creeds, customs, theologians, and philosophers—that came along after New Testament times. Since the Latter-day Saints do not accept doctrines originating in the early Church after the death of the apostles and prophets, we are accused of not being “historical” or “traditional” Christians.

In fact, we believe that revelation to the early Church stopped because of the death of the Apostles and the growing apostasy, or falling away, from the truth. In the absence of Apostles, the church eventually turned to councils of philosophers and theologians, for guidance. These councils, after lengthy debates, in turn interpreted the gospel according to their best understanding. Often they drew upon the philosophies of respected men (like Plato), concluding, for example, that God has no body or physical nature; or that the three separate persons of the Godhead—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost—are only one being. The declarations of these councils are still generally accepted today by traditional Christian churches as official doctrines. Yet these creeds were formulated centuries after the deaths of the Apostles and the close of the New Testament.

Were the Twelve Apostles Christians? Of course. But if it were true that one must accept the whole package of historical Christianity in order to be a Christian, then it would be impossible for early Christians, including Jesus and his disciples, to qualify—since they lived centuries before these traditions came to be. On the other hand, if the New Testament Saints can be considered Christians without accepting all the traditions of men that came later, then so can the Latter-day Saints, and the historical exclusion is invalid.
The canonical or biblical exclusion

5 The term “canon of scripture” refers to the collection of books accepted by any group as the authoritative word of God. For most Christians the canon of scripture is limited to the Bible. But Latter-day Saints have a larger canon of scripture that includes the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The canonical exclusion, in its simplest form, says that since Latter-day Saints have books of scripture in addition to the “traditional” Christian Bible, they cannot be Christians.

One of the problems with this canonical exclusion lies in the assumption that there is only one “traditional” Christian Bible. Over the centuries, there have been a number of different versions of the Bible, and many Christian churches and individuals have disagreed about which books should be included. Even today, the Bible used by Catholics contains a number of different books than the Bible used by Protestants. Yet Catholics and Protestants continue to call each other Christians—even though they have different canons of scripture.

When revelation stopped after the death of the early Apostles, people were forced to draw one of two conclusions: (1) either revelation had stopped because God had already said everything they would ever need, or (2) revelation had stopped because the church lacked apostles and prophets to speak for him. Traditional Christians accept the first explanation; Latter-day Saints accept the second.

Sometimes critics cite Revelation 22:18–19 [Rev. 22:18–19] as evidence that the Bible forbids adding to or taking away from the canon of scripture. In these verses, John curses those who would add to or take away from “this book.” But when John wrote Revelation, the Bible in its present form did not yet exist. He was simply referring to his own book, the Book of Revelation, rather than to the whole Bible.

The truth is that prophets have usually added to the scriptures—almost all the biblical apostles and prophets did this. There is, in fact, no biblical statement whatever closing the canon of scripture or prohibiting additional revelation or additional scripture after the New Testament.

Some non-LDS Christians believe that the Bible contains all religious truth. However, the Bible itself says nothing of the sort. The word Bible never appears in the Bible—for the Bible never refers to itself. Thus all these claims about the Bible are unbiblical. The Bible itself never claims to be perfect, never claims to be sufficient for salvation, and never claims to grant its readers authority to speak or act for God. Rather, such claims are made by those who have lost priesthood authority and have lost direct revelation and, instead of trying to find them again, are trying desperately to maintain that their loss doesn’t matter.
The doctrinal exclusion

6 This type of argument claims that since the Latter-day Saints do not always interpret the Bible as other Christians do, we must not be Christians. But, in fact, other denominations also differ among themselves doctrinally, and it is unreasonable to demand that Latter-day Saints conform to a single standard of “Christian” doctrine when no such single standard exists.

For example, the Latter-day Saints are accused of worshiping a “different god” because we do not believe in the traditional Trinity. “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost” (A of F 1:1) as taught in the New Testament. What Latter-day Saints do not believe is the non-Biblical doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325) and Chalcedon (A.D. 451) centuries after the time of Jesus—the doctrine that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence. We do not believe it because it is not scriptural. As Harper’s Bible Dictionary states: “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”

Jesus didn’t teach the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity. The New Testament writers didn’t have any idea of it. The doctrine itself wasn’t invented until centuries later. So one can’t say the Latter-day Saints are not true Christians for not accepting it, unless one also excludes Jesus, his disciples, and the New Testament Church, who similarly did not know or teach it.

Latter-day Saints do believe that God the Father has a physical body. This view is attacked as “non-Christian” by critics who often cite John 4:24, which states in the King James version that “God is a spirit.” However, since there is no indefinite article (a, or an) in the Greek language from which this verse is translated, the consensus among biblical scholars is that there should not be an indefinite article at John 4:24. It should simply read “God is spirit.” In other words, this scripture does not limit God to being only a spirit, but merely includes spirit as one of his attributes. After all, we also read that “God is light” (1 Jn. 1:5) and “God is love” (1 Jn. 4:8), and yet no one interprets these verses to mean that God is only light, or God is only love. Certainly, the member of the Godhead called the Holy Ghost is spirit, but that fact tells us nothing about whether or not God the Father has a physical body.

Finally, quite often we hear that Latter-day Saints are not Christians because true Christians believe in salvation by grace, while the Latter-day Saints believe in salvation through our own good works. But this is a misunderstanding. Yes, Latter-day Saints do believe we must serve God with all our “heart, might, mind, and strength” (D&C 4:2). But the Book of Mormon makes perfectly clear that it is impossible for us to completely earn or deserve our blessings from God (Mosiah 2:21, 24); that redemption can never come through individual effort alone, but only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 2:3, 5–8); and that—after all we can do (Alma 24:11)—we are saved by grace (2 Ne. 10:24; 2 Ne. 25:23).
Conclusion

We have discussed arguments some people use for claiming that Latter-day Saints are not Christians. Notice that not one of these addresses the question of whether we accept Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and Savior. Our critics don’t address this—the only issue that really matters—for the LDS position here is an unassailable matter of record. Our first article of faith [A of F 1:1] declares our belief in Jesus Christ. We meet every Sunday and partake of the sacrament to renew our faith in and our commitment to Him as the Son of God and the Savior of the world.

I have frequently asked non-LDS critics exactly which Book of Mormon teachings about Jesus Christ they disagree with. Invariably the response has been that it isn’t what the Book of Mormon says that is offensive to them—it is the Book of Mormon itself. Most anti-Mormons reject the LDS scriptures without knowing or caring what those scriptures actually teach about Christ. You see, it isn’t really the LDS doctrine of Christ that is objectionable; rather, it is the claim that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is God’s word, and that the gospel has been restored to the earth in the latter days.

Both the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet bear witness to Jesus Christ as Savior. The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price bear that same great witness, as do all of the modern prophets and apostles. Though all the world may say that Latter-day Saints do not know or love or worship Jesus Christ, the truth is that we do. If this is not enough to be counted as Christian, then that word has lost its meaning. SEE: https://www.lds.org/new-era/1998/05/are ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Apr. 1992 Ensign
Believing Christ
By Stephen E. Robinson


To have faith in Jesus Christ, we must learn to believe his promise of eternal life.

One of the most terrifying dilemmas in the universe consists of two facts. The first is expressed in Doctrine and Covenants 1:31: “I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.” [D&C 1:31] That means he can’t tolerate it. He can’t blink or look the other way. The other fact is very simply put: We all sin. If the equation consisted of only those two facts, the conclusion would be inescapable: As sinful beings, we can never enter God’s presence.

But that is not all there is. There is the atonement of Jesus Christ—that glorious plan by which this dilemma can be resolved.

And the amazing thing is that the Atonement works in practical ways.

Believing Christ
When my son Michael was six or seven, he did something I thought was wrong. He is my only son, and I want him to be better than his dad was. So when he slipped up, I sent him to his room with the instructions, “Don’t you dare come out until I come and get you!”

And then I forgot. Some hours later, as I was watching television, I heard his door open and tentative footsteps coming down the hall. I slapped my forehead and ran to meet him. There he was with swollen eyes and tears on his cheeks. He looked up at me—not quite sure he should have come out—and said, “Dad, can’t we ever be friends again?” I melted and pulled him to me. He’s my boy, and I love him.

We all do things that disappoint our Father in Heaven, that separate us from his presence, his Spirit. There are times when we get sent to our rooms, spiritually though not physically. When that happens, we sometimes lift up our eyes and say, “O Father, can’t we ever be friends again?” The answer, found in all the scriptures, is a resounding “Yes—through the atonement of Christ.” I particularly like the way it is put in Isaiah 1:18: “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.” [Isa. 1:18]

To have faith in Jesus Christ is not merely to believe that he is who he says he is. It is not merely to believe in Christ; we must also believe Christ. Both as a bishop and as a teacher, I have heard several variations on a theme of doubt. Some have said, “Bishop, I’ve sinned too horribly. I’ll be active in the Church, and I hope for some reward. But I couldn’t ever hope to be exalted after what I’ve done.” Others have said, “I’m weak and imperfect. I don’t have all the talents that Brother Jones (or Sister Smith) does. I’ll never be the bishop (or the Relief Society president). I’m just average. I expect my reward in eternity will be a little lower than theirs.”

All of these are variations on the same theme: “I do not believe Christ can do what he claims. I have no faith in his ability to exalt me.”

I once counseled a man who said, “Bishop, I’m just not celestial material.” Well, I’d heard those words once too often, so I said, “You’re not celestial material? Welcome to the club. Not one of us is! Not one of us qualifies on our own for the presence of God. So why don’t you admit your real problem? Why don’t you admit that you don’t believe Christ can do what he says he can do?”

He got angry. “I have a testimony of Jesus!”

I said, “Yes, you believe in Christ. You simply do not believe Christ. He says that even though you are not celestial, he can make you celestial—but you don’t believe it.”

Why He Is Called the Savior
Sometimes the demand for perfection drives us to despair. More than a decade ago, my wife and I were living in Pennsylvania. Things seemed to be going well. I’d been promoted in my work and was also serving in the bishopric. Janet had given birth to our fourth child, had graduated from college, had passed the CPA exam, and had been called to serve as Relief Society president. We were busy but happy, and I thought we were doing the right things.

Then my wife began to feel an overpowering sense of discouragement. She asked to be released from her callings, and try as I might, I could not get her to tell me what was wrong.

One night, after two weeks of being prodded by a sometimes insensitive but worried husband, she finally said, “All right. You want to know what’s wrong? I can’t do it anymore. I can’t get up at 5:30 in the morning to bake bread and help my kids with their homework and do my own homework. I can’t do my Relief Society stuff and get my genealogy done and sew and go to the PTA meetings and write the missionaries. …”

She added, “I don’t have the talent that Sister Morrell has. I can’t do what Sister Childs does. I try not to yell at the kids, but I do. I’m not perfect, and I’m never going to be perfect. I’m afraid I’m not going to make it to the celestial kingdom.”

I said, “Janet, I know you have a testimony. …”

“Of course I do! That’s what’s so terrible. I know the gospel’s true. I just can’t do it. I’ve tried and I’ve tried, but I can’t do it all, all of the time.”

It was a long night. At last we came to understand what was wrong. We realized, after talking together, that Janet was trying to save herself. She knew that Jesus is an adviser and a teacher. She knew that he is an example, the head of the Church, our Elder Brother, and even God. She knew all that, but she did not understand His role as the Savior.

We all fail at living the full celestial level. That’s why we need a Savior. The Lord says, “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.” (Matt. 5:6.) We frequently misinterpret that verse. We think it means “Blessed are the righteous.” It does not. When are you hungry? When are you thirsty? When you don’t have the object of your desire. It is those who don’t have the righteousness that God has—but who hunger and thirst after it—who are blessed, for if that is the desire of their hearts, the Lord will help them achieve it.

Becoming One with Christ
Perfection comes through the atonement of Jesus Christ. That happens as we become one with him, a perfect being. It is like a merger. If you take a small, bankrupt firm that is about to go under and merge it with a corporate giant, what happens? Their assets and liabilities flow together, and the new entity that is created is solvent.

This is similar to what happens spiritually when we enter into a covenant with the Savior. We have liabilities; he has assets. So he proposes a covenant relationship. Jesus is sometimes called the Bridegroom and the Church the Bride, because of their close association under the covenant. After the covenant is made, I become one with Christ, and as partners we work together toward my exaltation. My liabilities and his assets flow into each other. I do all that I can do, and he does what I cannot yet do. For now, in partnership we are perfect, through His perfection.

What heavier burden is there than the demand we sometimes place on ourselves to be perfect now, in this life? But Jesus proposes: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

“Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28–30.)
Trust Me

Nephi was one of the great prophets, yet he recognized his need for the Savior. In 2 Nephi 4:17–18, we read of his anguish: “O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

“I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.” [2 Ne. 4:17–18]

Did Nephi understand his mortal condition?

Oh, yes. But the key to his greatness is what comes next: “Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.” (2 Ne. 4:19.)

I had a friend who used to say frequently, “Well, I figure my life is half over and I’m halfway to the celestial kingdom, so I’m right on schedule.”

One day I asked her, “What happens if you die tomorrow?” It was the first time the thought had occurred to her.

“Let’s see, halfway to the celestial kingdom is … mid-terrestrial! That’s not good enough!”

We need to know that because of the covenant we have made with the Savior, if we should die tomorrow, we still have hope of the celestial kingdom. That hope is one of the promised blessings of our covenant relationship. Yet many of us do not understand that promise or take advantage of it.

When our twin daughters were young, Janet and I decided to teach them to swim. I started with Rebekah. As we went down into the public pool together, I thought, “I’m going to teach her to swim.” But she thought, “I’m going to drown!” The water was only three and one-half feet deep, but Becky was only three feet tall. She was so terrified that she began to scream and kick. She was unteachable.

Finally, I held her close and said, “Becky, I’ve got you. I’m your dad. I love you. I’m not going to let anything bad happen to you. Now relax.” And bless her heart, she relaxed. She trusted me. I put my arms under her and said, “Okay, now kick your legs.” And she began to learn how to swim.

Spiritually, some of us are so terrified by the questions “Am I celestial? Am I going to make it?” that we cannot make any progress. We’re petrified by our fear. But if we’re trying to follow his teachings and paying attention, we can almost feel the Savior’s arms around us and feel those assurances as the Spirit whispers of the Savior’s love for us: I love you. Trust me. And if we do trust him, he can begin to help us live the gospel. It is as if he supports us, whispering through the Spirit: Okay, now attend sacrament meeting. Very good. Now accept a call to serve. And so we begin to make progress.

Alma 34:14–16 makes it clear that Christ’s atonement was infinite and eternal. As such, it enables mercy to overpower justice so we can have the faith to repent. “And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles [us] in the arms of safety.”

“The arms of safety”—that is my favorite phrase from the Book of Mormon.

Do Latter-day Saints believe in being saved? Of course we do. That’s why Jesus is called the Savior. What good is it to have a Savior if no one is saved? It’s like having a lifeguard that won’t get out of the chair.

The great truth of the gospel is that we have a Savior who can and will save us from ourselves, from what we lack, from our imperfections, from the carnality within us, if we seek his help. In vision, Joseph Smith described those in the celestial kingdom in these terms:

“These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

“These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.” (D&C 76:68–69.)

Just men and women—those who hunger and thirst after righteousness—made perfect through Jesus Christ, our mediator.

Give Him All
As my wife and I talked that night about feelings of inadequacy, I groped for some way to help. I finally remembered something that had happened a couple of months earlier. In our home it is now called the parable of the bicycle.

I was sitting in a chair reading. My daughter, Sarah, who was seven years old at the time, came in and said, “Dad, can I have a bike? I’m the only kid on the block who doesn’t have one.”

Well, I didn’t have the money then for a bike, so I stalled her. I said, “Sure, Sarah.”

She said, “How? When?”

I said, “You save all your pennies, and soon you’ll have enough for a bike.” And she went away.

A couple ofs weeks later I was sitting in the same chair when I heard a “clink, clink” in Sarah’s bedroom. I asked, “Sarah, what are you doing?”

She came to me with a little jar, a slit cut in the lid, and a bunch of pennies in the bottom. She said, “You promised me that if I saved all my pennies, pretty soon I’d have enough for a bike. And, Daddy, I’ve saved every single one of them.”

My heart melted. My daughter was doing everything in her power to follow my instructions. I hadn’t actually lied to her. If she saved all of her pennies, she would eventually have enough for a bike, but by then she would want a car. I said, “Let’s go look at bikes.”

We went to every store in town. Finally we found it—the perfect bicycle. She was thrilled. Then she saw the price tag, and her face fell. She started to cry. “Oh, Dad, I’ll never have enough for a bicycle!”

So I said, “Sarah, how much do you have?”

She answered, “Sixty-one cents.”

“I’ll tell you what. You give me everything you’ve got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Then I drove home very slowly because she insisted on riding the bike home.

As I drove beside her, I thought of the atonement of Christ. We all desperately want the celestial kingdom. We want to be with our Father in Heaven. But no matter how hard we try, we come up short. At some point all of us must realize, “I can’t do this by myself. I need help.” Then it is that the Savior says, in effect, All right, you’re not perfect. But what can you do? Give me all you have, and I’ll do the rest.

He still requires our best effort. We must keep trying. But the good news is that having done all we can, it is enough. We may not be personally perfect yet, but because of our covenant with the Savior, we can rely on his perfection, and his perfection will get us through.

As Janet and I internalized how the Atonement works, we wept. “I’ve always believed that Jesus suffered and died for me,” Janet said. “But now I realize that he must save me from myself, from my sins and my weaknesses.”

I rejoice in the words of 2 Nephi 2:8: “There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah.” [2 Ne. 2:8] There is no other way. Many of us are trying to save ourselves, holding the atonement of Jesus Christ at arm’s distance and saying, “When I’ve perfected myself, then I’ll be worthy of the Atonement.” But that’s not how it works. That’s like saying, “I won’t take the medicine until I’m well. I’ll be worthy of it then.”

One of my favorite hymns reads: “Dearly, dearly has he loved! And we must love him too, and trust in his redeeming blood, and try his works to do.” (“There Is a Green Hill Far Away,” Hymns, 1985, no. 194.)

Truly, we must try to do his works with all that is in us. But then, having done all, we can trust in his redeeming blood to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

If we will enter into that glorious covenant Jesus offers us and give him all that we have, holding nothing back, trusting in his ability to make up for what we lack, he will exalt us. With him pulling with and for us, we can move forward in confidence toward our celestial home.
SEE: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/04/beli ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Dec. 1982 Ensign
Background for the Testaments
By Stephen E. Robinson

During the past several decades an increasing number of ancient religious writings have come to the world’s attention. Whole libraries of religious texts have been discovered at Qumran in Palestine and at Nag Hammadi in Egypt. These and other exciting discoveries have in turn renewed interest in the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha of the Old and New Testaments times.

Since some of this literature provides important information for biblical studies, a strong interest in it has naturally developed among Latter-day Saints. Unfortunately, the texts were originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Coptic, and other exotic languages, and informed discussion of the documents is often confined to scholarly journals. Thus, few Latter-day Saints are able to study the texts firsthand or to evaluate the claims that are sometimes made about them.

The following information is intended to help interested students understand what this ancient literature is, where it comes from, and what might be said about its relationship to the gospel.

The Apocrypha
The word apocrypha means “hidden” in Greek. In Judaism and early Christianity, this term was originally applied to important teachings that were to be kept hidden from the general public. However, by the fourth or fifth century A.D., the Christian world of that time had largely rejected the idea of special or “hidden” teachings and thus rejected any books that claimed to preserve such teachings. Consequently, during this period the word apocrypha came to have a new meaning—“heretical” or “rejected.” Over the centuries the terms apocrypha or apocryphal have again been amended through usage, and are now understood to mean “not scriptural.” In this broad sense any religious writing that claims divine inspiration but which is not found in the scriptures is called “apocryphal.” It is in this sense that the ancient writings discussed in this article are called “apocryphal.”

However, when the term “the Apocrypha” is used (usually with a capital A) it refers specifically to a collection of books accepted as scripture by Roman Catholics and by the Eastern Orthodox church, but believed by most Protestants to be non-scriptural. Hence their designation by Protestants as “the Apocrypha.”

In the third century B.C., Greek-speaking Jews translated the Hebrew Old Testament into the Greek language. Three centuries later, about A.D. 90, the rabbis revised and standardized the Hebrew Old Testament. Comparing the earlier Greek translation, called the Septuagint, with the later Hebrew text of the rabbis, one finds that the Septuagint version contains about fifteen more books than the Hebrew. These “extra” books are the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. Obviously, the translators of the Greek Septuagint believed that the books of the Apocrypha were scripture, and the later rabbis did not. Since the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches accept the contents of the Septuagint as authoritative, they accept its additional books as inspired scripture. However, since most Protestants accept the Hebrew text of the rabbis as authoritative, they do not accept the Apocrypha as scripture.

The books usually included in the Apocrypha are First and Second Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (also called the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach), Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Young Men, Suzanna, Bel and the Dragon, the Prayer of Manasseh, and First and Second Maccabees. To these the Eastern Orthodox add Third and Fourth Maccabees and Psalm 151.

While the larger Christian world is divided in its views on the Apocrypha, Latter-day Saints are fortunate to have received revelation on this subject. In March 1833, the prophet Joseph Smith asked the Lord if his studies of the scriptures should include the books of the Apocrypha. The Lord’s response is preserved as section 91 of the Doctrine and Covenants: [D&C 91]

“Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

“There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

“Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

“Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

“And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

“And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.” (D&C 91:1–6.)

Accordingly, it has been the position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that the Apocrypha are not scripture, but that they may be of value if read with the Spirit. One who studies the gospel aided by the Spirit is equipped to discern truth from error in the Apocrypha. The words to one of our hymns, “Now Thank We All Our God” (Hymns, no. 120), were taken from the Apocryphal book of Ecclesiasticus (50:22–24). First and Second Maccabees provide valuable historical information for the period between the Old and New Testament. The Apostle Paul seems to have quoted more than once (Eph. 6:13–17; Rom. 1:20–31, Rom. 9:20–22) from the Wisdom of Solomon, a book which teaches, among other things, the premortal existence of souls (8:19f) and the creation of the universe out of unformed, uncreated matter (11:17). The Prayer of Manasseh is surely one of the most beautiful prayers of repentance ever written.

Yet these same books also contain passages that are incompatible with the principles of the gospel—hence the important limitations imposed by the Lord in his discussion of the Apocrypha in Doctrine and Covenants 91. [D&C 91] Furthermore, the revelation considers only the Old Testament Apocrypha. Since that revelation was given, other apocryphal literature has been discovered. Obviously, section 91 does not address such recent discoveries as the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi codices, and other newly found manuscripts, but the principle of that revelation undoubtedly still applies: “Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth.” (D&C 91:4.)

The Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
The word pseudepigrapha (pronounced sood-ehpig-ra-fa) literally means “falsely attributed.” Originally this term referred to books such as the Psalms of Solomon, the Testament of Adam, or the Apocalypse of Moses—all of which were attributed to Old Testament characters who could not have written them. Eventually, however, it came to be used for all the books written by Jews in the period roughly between 200 B.C. and A.D. 200 which claim to be inspired but which are not found in the Hebrew bible or among the Apocrypha. A few books authored by Christians are also generally included among the Pseudepigrapha.

Unlike the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Nag Hammadi codices, the Pseudepigrapha were not discovered, but have been preserved individually in museums, libraries, and monasteries throughout the world. The major importance of the Pseudepigrapha is that they come from around the time of Jesus and therefore provide a background of popular culture and religious beliefs against which to place our study of the Old and New Testaments. The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha together partly fill in the historical, cultural, and religious gap that otherwise exists in our knowledge of the period between the testaments. They also reveal that some of the beliefs and practices of Judaism and Christianity at the time of Christ were quite different from what they became shortly thereafter.

Like the Apocrypha, the character of the Pseudepigrapha is not uniform. Some of them, like the Treatise of Shem, which deals with astrology, are clearly of little interest to Latter-day Saints. But others are of extreme interest. For example, the History of the Rechabites, also called the Narrative of Zosimus, preserves an ancient but mixed-up tradition about people leaving Jerusalem at the time of the prophet Jeremiah and being led by the Lord across the ocean to a land of promise (VII–IX). The Book of Enoch teaches that the spirits of the dead are segregated into special areas according to their degrees of righteousness to await the resurrection and the judgment (1 En 22). Second Enoch (23:5) teaches the premortal existence of the soul, and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (TLevi 2–4) refer to three heavens or degrees of glory. Second Baruch stresses the free agency of man and teaches that the consequences of Adam’s sin were limited to physical death and that each person is responsible for his own sins. The Testament of Adam (3:1–5), the Apocalypse of Moses (14, 15), and the Vita Adae et Evae (29, 30) describe how Adam called his posterity together shortly before his death, blessed them, and prophesied all that would happen to them down to the end of the world. This event is also described in Doctrine and Covenants 107 as the gathering at Adam-ondi-Ahman. (D&C 107:53–56.)

Latter-day Saint interest in the Pseudepigrapha is based mainly on these and other bits of tradition which parallel the beliefs and practices of the Church. Nevertheless, in many cases these same books also contain teachings which Latter-day Saints would regard as not doctrinally accurate. One must remember that the Pseudepigrapha are indeed “falsely attributed.” They consist mostly of bits and pieces of older traditions which have been reworked by later authors. Even the Book of Enoch, which is referred to in the New Testament (Jude 1:14–15), shows signs of having been edited since that time.

The Dead Sea Scrolls
Sometime in late 1946 or early 1947, Bedouins discovered some ancient leather manuscripts in a cave on the northwestern shore of the Dead Sea. Over the next decade ten more caves in the general area of Wadi Qumran were also found to contain ancient manuscripts. These Hebrew and Aramaic documents, now called the Dead Sea Scrolls, are the literary remains of an ancient Jewish sect that once lived at Qumran. Most scholars now identify this sect with the Essenes.

Archeologists have determined that Qumran was inhabited roughly between 130 B.C. and A.D. 68. This means that the Dead Sea Scrolls were being written in the period just before, and perhaps even during, the lifetime of Christ. Naturally, the scrolls add greatly to our knowledge of the “theological climate” of the time.

Both biblical and nonbiblical writings are found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Fragments of every book of the Old Testament except Esther have been found at Qumran, including more or less complete copies of Isaiah, Psalms, and an Aramaic text of Job. The importance of these biblical manuscripts is that they are about a thousand years older than the oldest previously known manuscripts of the Old Testament. Because the biblical manuscripts among the scrolls show relatively little change from the Old Testament that has come down to us, the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the basic reliability of the Old Testament as we know it, at least as far back as the beginning of the Christian era.

The nonbiblical material from Qumran falls roughly into three main categories: (1) rule books, (2) wisdom literature, and (3) biblical commentaries. The rule books include such items as the Manual of Discipline, the War Rule, and the Temple Scroll. Together they define the regulations of the community. Often these regulations are written as though coming directly from God, who speaks in the first person.

The Manual of Discipline lays down rules of personal conduct, lists the various officers of the community and their duties, outlines the procedures for joining and for being expelled from the community, and describes the community’s ordinances and rituals. The War Rule instructs the community how to conduct the final battle that the Essenes believed would take place between good and evil at the last day. The Temple Scroll discusses rules of ritual cleanness and uncleanness, proper conduct for the king and his subordinates, instructions for building a future temple at Jerusalem, and other matters.

It should be noted here that there is nothing in the Temple Scroll connected with the Latter-day Saint concept of temples and temple work. The temple described in the Temple Scroll is closed to women, and the ordinance to be performed there is animal sacrifice. The Manual of Discipline does refer to a progressive initiation within the community with some familiar elements (such as wearing white clothes and learning sacred teachings), but this is nowhere related to the temple.

The wisdom literature among the Dead Sea Scrolls consists mainly of psalms, poetry, prayers, and other texts used in worship services. Most of this material is fragmentary except for the Hymns Scroll and the Psalms Scroll. The Psalms Scroll contains forty-one psalms from the Old Testament, four psalms that are known from apocryphal Latin, Greek, and Syriac sources, and three psalms previously unknown to modern scholars.

The commentaries found at Qumran are the Genesis Apocryphon (a retelling of the stories of Noah and Abraham) and commentaries on the books of Habakkuk, Isaiah, Nahum, Micah, and others. Most of these are fragmentary. In addition, there is a short work about Melchizedek as a kind of divine warrior-judge who will return to the earth at the end of the world. There is also a scroll made of copper which was not part of the Essene library but which was put into one of the caves perhaps fifty to a hundred years after the Essene community had been destroyed. The Copper Scroll is of particular interest to Latter-day Saints, since it confirms that important information was preserved on metal by Palestinian Jews.

The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal many beliefs and practices similar to those of the early Christian church and of the Latter-day Saints. Among these are a belief in baptism by immersion for the remission of sins (CD 10; baptismal fonts have been found at Qumran) and a belief in the necessity of receiving the Holy Ghost (CD 3). The community was governed by three presidents assisted by a council of twelve (1QS 8). In each local area of the sect there was a bishop who administered financial affairs, ascertained the worthiness of members, and acted as a common judge (CD 9, 13–14). The sect had a sacred meal of bread and wine administered by a priest (1QS 6). They believed in revelation through prophetic leaders and accepted the writings of these leaders as scripture (1QpHab 7). They also had a form of communal living (1QS 1, 6) similar to that of Christians in the New Testament (Acts 4:34ff).

All of this leads to the conclusion that in many ways the Essenes may have been closer to the gospel than other Jewish sects. And yet, we must remember that the Essenes did not have the fulness of the gospel. They were not Christians, and no New Testament material has ever been found at Qumran. Despite the similarities to Latter-day Saint beliefs in some respects, the Essenes also had doctrines and practices incompatible with the gospel. For example, they expected not one Messiah but two. They practiced celibacy and believed in a form of astrology. Although Jesus accepted the authority of the Jewish high priest and the sanctity of the Jerusalem temple, the Essenes denied both. And, contrary to certain claims, there is no evidence that the prayers on the bread and wine at Qumran were in any way similar to our own.

Qumran
The New Testament Apocrypha
The term New Testament apocrypha refers to books written by Christians in imitation of the books of the New Testament. They deal with characters or events taken from the New Testament and claim divine inspiration in the writing. (This narrow definition of the New Testament apocrypha excludes works like the Shepherd of Hermas or the Didache, which are usually classed with the Apostolic Fathers or as Patristic literature. These will not be discussed in this article.)

Generally, the New Testament apocrypha were written between the second and the ninth centuries A.D. They are valuable to historians because of the evidence they give for the changes that took place in Christianity during this period. Some of these books were written for entertainment or as historical fiction. Others attempt to provide fictional details of events not fully explained in the New Testament, such as the childhood of Jesus. Other texts dwell endlessly on the torments of the damned after the day of judgment. Still others seem to have been written in an attempt to justify new doctrines that were making their way into the church after the Apostolic period.

There are over one hundred texts in the New Testament apocrypha. Most are of little use to Latter-day Saints. One notable exception, however, is the Syriac Hymn of the Pearl, which is preserved in a later work entitled the Acts of Thomas. The Hymn is a beautiful allegory of the plan of salvation. It includes references to a premortal existence, heavenly parents, mortal probation, an exalted elder brother, reunion with the heavenly family, and ultimate exaltation. The Hymn of the Pearl was probably written in the first century A.D.

A few others of the New Testament apocrypha are of interest because they preserve pieces of older traditions that may have come from earliest Christianity. For example, the Acts of Pilate preserves several fragments about Jesus’ descent into the spirit world, his preaching there, and his leading out the righteous souls who accepted him.

The Nag Hammadi Codices
In late 1945, a collection of thirteen papyrus books was discovered in a jar buried near the town of Nag Hammadi in Upper Egypt. These thirteen books, or codices, contained a total of forty-four separate works written in the Coptic language. Most of these date from between the late second and early fifth centuries A.D. and are the product of a kind of Christianity called Gnosticism.

The terms Gnosticism and Gnostic come from the Greek word for knowledge (gnosis). While not all Gnostics believed the same things, the Nag Hammadi Codices confirm that most believed salvation was determined more by what one knew than by what one did. In fact, many Gnostics believed that good works were of little value and that the proper function of religion was to teach a knowledge (gnosis) of secret mysteries.

Some Gnostics rejected the Old Testament scriptures (as in The Second Treatise of the Great Seth 63:17ff), and most revised or reinterpreted them. A common element in the Nag Hammadi codices, for example, is the identification of Jehovah with the devil (Apocryphon of John 13; On the Origin of the World 103), and the consequent reversal of the Old Testament perception of good and evil (as in the Testimony of Truth 46–48). Thus, many Gnostics believed that the serpent was the hero and Jehovah was the villain in the Garden of Eden (Hypostasis of the Archons 88–89; On the Origin of the World 118–119). It followed from this that those who obeyed God were evil, and those who disobeyed him were good (as in the Apocalypse of Adam and the Second Treatise of the Great Seth 62–64).

Many Gnostics denied the true humanity of Jesus and the reality of his death and resurrection (the First Apocalypse of James 31:15ff, Apocalypse of Peter 81–3, and the Book of Thomas the Contender 143:10ff). Since they believed that salvation was determined more by knowledge than by behavior, most Gnostics denied the need of any atonement for sins. In most Gnostic documents Jesus is represented not as a Savior but as a teacher of mysteries (as in the Gospel of Thomas).

In spite of all this, a few of the Nag Hammadi writings do show traces of doctrines familiar to Latter-day Saints. For example, the Exegesis on the Soul teaches that the soul came from the presence of God where it lived in a premortal state (133:20ff). The Teaching of Silvanus mentions Christ’s descent into the underworld and his freeing of the captive spirits there (104, 110). The Gospel of Thomas, which is only slightly Gnostic, contains several statements attributed to Jesus which some scholars feel may in fact be genuine, though they are otherwise unknown.

Nevertheless, it is those passages among the Nag Hammadi codices which deal with mysteries and initiations that have generated the most interest among Latter-day Saints. For example, the gospel of Philip describes an initiation in three stages, corresponding to the three chambers of the Jerusalem Temple (69:14ff). In the last stage, which was called the Bridal Chamber, a sacred marriage was performed which was believed to be eternally binding (70:19ff) and which had to be performed in mortality (86:1ff). In the Dialogue of the Savior, Jesus supposedly tells the disciples how to ascend to the Father (120:20ff). And in the Apocalypse of Paul (23:1–25), Paul is represented as vanquishing the hostile ruler of the sixth heaven by showing him a sign and then proceeding on to the tenth heaven. The actual content of the mysteries taught in the Nag Hammadi codices usually centers on the themes of creation and the fall of Adam and Eve (as in the Apocryphon of John).

In the initial excitement over finding some ideas among the Nag Hammadi codices that are similar to those of the Latter-day Saints, some readers have lost sight of a very important fact: though some things are similar, they are never the same. There is not a single passage among the Nag Hammadi codices which could be said to exactly describe Latter-day Saint practices. There is not a single line of text that could be called a translation of Latter-day Saint ordinances. On rare occasions there are similarities, but always there are differences. The reason for this is simple: the Gnostics did not have the Gospel. By the time the Nag Hammadi codices were written, Gnosticism had already been an apostate movement for generations, perhaps even centuries.

There has been a tendency in some Latter-day Saint circles to suggest a direct link between the Gnostics and the true primitive Church. This is impossible, for the Nag Hammadi codices show the Gnostics to have been in some respects even further from the gospel than the post-apostolic “orthodox” church. But just as a Geiger counter can still detect traces of radiation in an empty container that once held radioactive elements, so Latter-day Saint readers can detect traces of departed truth in the empty writings of the Gnostics. Thus, the Nag Hammadi codices are of interest to Latter-day Saints because they seem to demonstrate that certain doctrines and ordinances, whose very existence was denied by later “orthodoxy,” were part of early Christianity. They also provide us with the negative example of a people whose lust for mysteries and secret doctrines caused them to lose the simple truths of the gospel.

In Conclusion
The apocryphal literature of the Bible provides important historical information and other background for the study of the scriptures and early Christian history. It provides large samples of the languages of biblical times, and this helps translators and scholars better understand the exact meanings of difficult words and phrases in the biblical texts. Some of these documents are of interest to Latter-day Saints because they seem to confirm that doctrines taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith and subsequent modern prophets were known in the ancient world. Often these parallels are exciting, but always we must remember to treat the evidence honestly. Sadly, sometimes enthusiasts misstate facts and distort perspective in their eagerness to find support for their views.

Apart from the revelation about the Apocrypha in Doctrine and Covenants 91, [D&C 91] no official statements about apocryphal literature have been made. Everything said about them, even by well-meaning Church members, is only opinion. SEE: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/12/back ... .+Robinson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

THIS OUGHT TO GIVE SOME IDEA AS TO WHO STEPHEN ROBINSON IS. He was department chair in ancient scripture at Brigham Young University.

Re: Wolves and Sheep

Posted: March 4th, 2014, 4:47 pm
by freedomforall
A Random Phrase wrote:
Nan wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:
Interesting. And all this time, I thought our main defense was faith in Jesus Christ. Dang. Guess I'll have to ditch Him and follow an organization (which, by the way, does have the freedom to choose to leave the truth by degrees - else why a need for a restoration in the first place?)
Sounds like he touched a nerve with you.
Not really a nerve. I just thought it rather odd that Jesus was left out of the equation and the church was the salvation of souls all by itself.
If the CJCOLDS is Christ's church, then it stands to reason that they are one in the same. Christ organized his church in His day, and it was restored for our day. Makes sense to me. In summary...Christ is the church and the church is Christ. It's the people who are imperfect. Just sayin".

1 Corinthians 12:27
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ephesians 4:12
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: