LDS Freedom Forum

Edited

Constantly gazing upon and Idolizing graven images is a poor substitute for seeing and worshiping before the Lord Himself. I love art that depicts the Lord, but I see it as art -- not the real thing.

If I misunderstood the meaning of Gideon's post, my mistake.

durangout wrote:If I misunderstood the meaning of Gideon's post, my mistake.

Don't be so quick to admit to a mistake here. Like I said, I don't think that's what Denver was inferring. However, maybe others do get that impression. If that's what Denver is trying to infer, then I think we could have a lively debate about what that means.

Edited.

Or maybe when Satan manifests himself, he does so in a deceptive way as to look like what the general public imagines Christ to look like? :-\

I know that Del Parsons and other LDS artists who paint portraits of the Savior, do so with much prayer and thoughtfulness. I think it insults these artists to say that these paintings look more like Satan.

kathyn wrote:I know that Del Parsons and other LDS artists who paint portraits of the Savior, do so with much prayer and thoughtfulness. I think it insults these artists to say that these paintings look more like Satan.

Simply more proof positive that Snuffer puts the "whore" in Korihor.

durangout wrote:If I misunderstood the meaning of Gideon's post, my mistake.

My intent was this, for the First Presidency and the Twelve to promote, approve, or commission a painting of Christ, which actually looks like Lucifer, means that that they do not know what either Christ or Lucifer look like. The implication being that they have never seen Christ. I guess if you think of them as the "new Popes", it makes sense.

On the other hand, we have 15 men who have dedicated their entire lives to building the kingdom of God on earth, and of testifying of Christ throughout the world, who do all that they can to bring the gospel and temples to every family on the planet, and that help us progress to the point of having our calling and election made sure, and yet God thinks less of them than the person who spent 21 years teaching Sunday School, and most recently serves on the High Council? As Denver himself has written, he is on the "sidelines".

I worked with the granddaughter of one of our Presidents of the Church. She told me that an artist brought a picture to her grandfather, when he was President, of the Saviour. He wanted to know what he thought of it. His response was that it was a beautiful picture and well done, but it didn't look a thing like him. (Her words exactly)

shadow wrote:I always thought Satan looked like this-

ballam.jpg

On a side note, in 1992 the man pictured above was awarded the Teaching Award in Continuing Education at BYU He is still a guest lecturer there from time to time =;

) Every time I see this guy, I think of 3 words... 'mingled with scripture'. ) He's excellent in his role as Satan in the temple film. :ymapplause:

natasha wrote:I worked with the granddaughter of one of our Presidents of the Church. She told me that an artist brought a picture to her grandfather, when he was President, of the Saviour. He wanted to know what he thought of it. His response was that it was a beautiful picture and well done, but it didn't look a thing like him. (Her words exactly)

It doesn't really matter what he looked like though - when he comes again, we'll know because he'll be dressed in red (to symbolize the blood he spilt for us), not to mention the righteous being 'caught up' to meet him in the sky as the earth is cleansed by fire as all things corrupt and evil are destroyed (people included).

Col. Flagg wrote:

natasha wrote:I worked with the granddaughter of one of our Presidents of the Church. She told me that an artist brought a picture to her grandfather, when he was President, of the Saviour. He wanted to know what he thought of it. His response was that it was a beautiful picture and well done, but it didn't look a thing like him. (Her words exactly)

It doesn't really matter what he looked like though - when he comes again, we'll know because he'll be dressed in red (to symbolize the blood he spilt for us), not to mention the righteous being 'caught up' to meet him in the sky as the earth is cleansed by fire as all things corrupt and evil are destroyed (people included).

....according to Zenos...earth isn't cleansed by fire and the righteous 'caught up'....until after the Millennium....

Jason wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:

natasha wrote:I worked with the granddaughter of one of our Presidents of the Church. She told me that an artist brought a picture to her grandfather, when he was President, of the Saviour. He wanted to know what he thought of it. His response was that it was a beautiful picture and well done, but it didn't look a thing like him. (Her words exactly)

It doesn't really matter what he looked like though - when he comes again, we'll know because he'll be dressed in red (to symbolize the blood he spilt for us), not to mention the righteous being 'caught up' to meet him in the sky as the earth is cleansed by fire as all things corrupt and evil are destroyed (people included).

....according to Zenos...earth isn't cleansed by fire and the righteous 'caught up'....until after the Millennium....

Hmm... not sure... I'll have to do some more homework into that as I've always been taught that this event occurs at his second coming and not at the end of 1,000 years of peace. I'll look into it and report the findings later.

Col. Flagg wrote:

Jason wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:It doesn't really matter what he looked like though - when he comes again, we'll know because he'll be dressed in red (to symbolize the blood he spilt for us), not to mention the righteous being 'caught up' to meet him in the sky as the earth is cleansed by fire as all things corrupt and evil are destroyed (people included).

....according to Zenos...earth isn't cleansed by fire and the righteous 'caught up'....until after the Millennium....

Hmm... not sure... I'll have to do some more homework into that as I've always been taught that this event occurs at his second coming and not at the end of 1,000 years of peace. I'll look into it and report the findings later.

Jacob Chapter 5....highly endorsed by Jacob.

This might be useful to you -
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 24#p265489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Didn't think I would see a discussion on this board hit on polymorphism and iconoclasm. Neat.

All the descriptions of Jesus are different in some aspects. I think this is because most folks sit down to write their version a while after they saw Him. Have your children write a description of you and see if it is the same. Or have you and your siblings write a description of your parents. Eye witnesses aren't always that great.

I also think that Christ can appear to us as he wants. Mark 16 Christ appears in a different or another form. The descriptions given in D&C 110 are slightly different from other latter day sources. In early Christian writings there is all manner of descriptions of Christ.

For an example in the apocryphal Acts of John there is a whole series of 12 polymorphic episodes strung together in chapters 88-93. When John gives his speech relating the 12 episodes he includes not only changes in appearances but also in form. These polymorphic changes are described as happening before the resurrection. Changes in appearances included Jesus appearing as a youth, a “comely” young man, bald and bearded, as a young man just starting a beard, as a small unattractive man, and as a man of small stature.

The changes in form seem to emphasize the more docetic qualities of Jesus and emphasize that he was not human. Docetism was fairly popular at the time (around 150-160). These changes include descriptions of a Jesus that never eats, never closes his eyes, and never leaves footprints. These are not depicted as miraculous exceptions but as factual observations of the evidence of Jesus’ physical nature. When John touches Jesus’ chest it is sometimes soft and alternatively hard. “Sometimes when I meant to touch him, I met a material and solid body; and at other times again when I felt him, the substance was immaterial and bodiless and as if it were not existing at all.”

These are not the only depictions of Jesus changing forms in this section. Acts of John also contains two transfiguration scenes reminiscent of the synoptic gospels. The first transfiguration scene in Acts of John is very brief and only mentions Peter, James and John the mountain and the light, “we beheld such a light on him that it is not possible for a man who uses mortal speech to describe what it was like.” Unlike the synoptics there is no voice and no appearance of Moses and Elijah. The second transfiguration is more descriptive of what happens but is again different from the gospels. The three apostles are again bidden to follow Jesus up a mountain. Jesus separates himself to go and pray. John decides to follow and sneaks up on him, “And I saw that he was not dressed in garments, but was seen by us as naked and not at all like a man; his feet were whiter than snow, so that the ground there was lit up by his feet, and his head reached to heaven; so that I was afraid and cried out, and he turned and appeared as a man of small stature, and took hold of my beard and pulled it.” John then makes note that this contact was not ordinary, “I suffered such pain for thirty days at the place where he took hold of my beard, that I said unto him ’Lord, if your playful tug has given me so much pain, what if you had given me a beating?’” To which Jesus responds in essence,” Don’t tempt me.”

Of course apocryphal acts are not a source of doctrine, but they are interesting to see how folks regarded the appearances of Jesus. And the Acts of John are also interesting because Jesus is shown as initiating a prayer circle. The disciples are directed to join hands around Jesus while he prays. They are to respond with ‘amen’ after each phrase. But then that is another topic.

In any case we will all see Christ someday. Maybe some of us sooner rather than later, but that is up to Him.

For a time he lived in the home of Joseph Smith and relates this incident: “During the winter that I boarded with Brother Joseph … we had a number of prayer meetings, in the Prophet’s chamber. … In one of those meetings the Prophet told us, ‘If we would humble ourselves before God, and exercise strong faith, we should see the face of the Lord.’ And about midday the visions of my mind were opened, and the eyes of my understanding were enlightened, and I saw the form of a man, most lovely, the visage of his face was sound and fair as the sun. His hair a bright silver grey, curled in a most majestic form; His eyes a keen penetrating blue, and the skin of his neck a most beautiful white and he was covered from the neck to the feet with a loose garment, pure white: Whiter than any garment I have ever before seen. His countenance was most penetrating, and yet most lovely. And while I was endeavoring to comprehend the whole personage from head to feet it slipped from me, and the vision was closed up. But it left on my mind the impression of love, for months, that I never before felt to that degree.” John Murdock Journal, my fourth great grandfather.

By the way SisterG There is an occurrence of one of the prophets describing Jesus quite clearly. I think it is David O McKay - he said that Jesus parted his hair in the middle - it was a chestnut brown and at the shoulder a darker color like oriental black -

More Faith Than Fear: The Los Angeles Stake Story Book Reviews; BYU Studies Vol. 29, No. 2, pg.109
CHAD M. ORTON. More Faith Than Fear: The Los Angeles Stake Story. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1987.
Perhaps the most captivating chapter for general readers would be the one about the Los Angeles Temple. Nearly everything Orton recounts about the temple--from the prophetic utterances concerning its erection to the eventual selection of the site, from the concern about the designation, "Hollywood Temple," to the insight given temple artist Joseph Gibby by President McKay that the Savior had "chestnut hair, hazel eyes, and fair complexion"--evokes and strengthens faith, and suggests that the Lord indeed had an investment in its completion.

The Description of Publius Lentullus

The following was taken from a manuscript in the possession of Lord Kelly, and in his library, and was copied from an original letter of Publius Lentullus at Rome. It being the usual custom of Roman Governors to advertise the Senate and people of such material things as happened in their provinces in the days of Tiberius Caesar, Publius Lentullus, President of Judea, wrote the following epistle to the Senate concerning the Nazarene called Jesus.

"There appeared in these our days a man, of the Jewish Nation, of great virtue, named Yeshua [Jesus], who is yet living among us, and of the Gentiles is accepted for a Prophet of truth, but His own disciples call Him the Son of God- He raiseth the dead and cureth all manner of diseases. A man of stature somewhat tall, and comely, with very reverent countenance, such as the beholders may both love and fear, his hair of (the colour of) the chestnut, full ripe, plain to His ears, whence downwards it is more orient and curling and wavering about His shoulders. In the midst of His head is a seam or partition in His hair, after the manner of the Nazarenes. His forehead plain and very delicate; His face without spot or wrinkle, beautified with a lovely red; His nose and mouth so formed as nothing can be reprehended; His beard thickish, in colour like His hair, not very long, but forked; His look innocent and mature; His eyes grey, clear, and quick- In reproving hypocrisy He is terrible; in admonishing, courteous and fair spoken; pleasant in conversation, mixed with gravity. It cannot be remembered that any have seen Him Laugh, but many have seen Him Weep. In proportion of body, most excellent; His hands and arms delicate to behold. In speaking, very temperate, modest, and wise. A man, for His singular beauty, surpassing the children of men"


The letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar

This is a reprinting of a letter from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar describing the physical appearance of Jesus. Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C.

TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:

A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the jewish people. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the jewish people -- not the poor but the rich and powerful.

Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.

Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree -- truly this is the Son of God.

Your most obedient servant,
Pontius Pilate

"The Archko Volume"

Another description of Jesus is found in "The Archko Volume" which contains official court documents from the days of Jesus. This information substantiates that He came from racial lines which had blue eyes and golden hair. In a chapter entitled "Gamaliel's Interview" it states concerning Jesus (Yeshua) appearance:

"I asked him to describe this person to me, so that I might know him if I should meet him. He said: 'If you ever meet him [Yeshua] you will know him. While he is nothing but a man, there is something about him that distinguishes him from every other man. He is the picture of his mother, only he has not her smooth, round face. His hair is a little more golden than hers, though it is as much from sunburn as anything else. He is tall, and his shoulders are a little drooped; his visage is thin and of a swarthy complexion, though this is from exposure. His eyes are large and a soft blue, and rather dull and heavy....' This jewish [Nazarite] is convinced that he is the Messiah of the world. ...this was the same person that was born of the virgin in Bethlehem some twenty-six years before..."


SisterG said, the description goes on but I can't find it anymore. I used to have a software program years ago from the 1990s that I could find anything on but it is outdated now and doesn't run on current computers. I am so lost without it. Looking on the net and on lds.org didn't help - does anyone know where I can find this description referenced? Thanks so much.

If you run Oracle Virtual Machine, you can run Folios on a 64 bit box operating system

Shalom

P.S. Those who have seen usually learn to never share, it serves no correct principle or purpose.

Col. Flagg wrote:It doesn't really matter what he looked like though - when he comes again, we'll know because he'll be dressed in red (to symbolize the blood he spilt for us), not to mention the righteous being 'caught up' to meet him in the sky as the earth is cleansed by fire as all things corrupt and evil are destroyed (people included).

Us included.

Col. Flagg wrote:

Jason wrote:....according to Zenos...earth isn't cleansed by fire and the righteous 'caught up'....until after the Millennium....

Hmm... not sure... I'll have to do some more homework into that as I've always been taught that this event occurs at his second coming and not at the end of 1,000 years of peace. I'll look into it and report the findings later.

Jacob 5:76-77 "For behold, for a long time will I lay up of the fruit of my vineyard unto mine own self against the season...And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered...And then cometh the season and the end; and my vineyard will I cause to be burned with fire."

Interesting follow up question...What is "the season." I have some thoughts but would like to hear others.

chasetafer0707 wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:

Jason wrote:....according to Zenos...earth isn't cleansed by fire and the righteous 'caught up'....until after the Millennium....

Hmm... not sure... I'll have to do some more homework into that as I've always been taught that this event occurs at his second coming and not at the end of 1,000 years of peace. I'll look into it and report the findings later.

Jacob 5:76-77 "For behold, for a long time will I lay up of the fruit of my vineyard unto mine own self against the season...And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered...And then cometh the season and the end; and my vineyard will I cause to be burned with fire."

Interesting follow up question...What is "the season." I have some thoughts but would like to hear others.

End of the season (cleansing of the vineyard)....or interpreted a little further - the end of this part of the Plan of Salvation....

According to the Archko volume, Jesus had blonde hair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Archko_Volume" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ancient egyptian paintings, depicting Israelitish slaves, show them with blonde and red hair. Nephi, when mentioning his vision of the Gentiles coming upon the promised land in the last days, said they were fair and beautiful like his people.

As for the facial features, I believe the Shroud of Turin reconstruction as depicted in this documentary must be pretty accurate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvAJRp4CXdU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His hair color has aged quite a bit since his mortal ministry. According to Joseph Smith's description, he now has white hair.

Jason wrote:

chasetafer0707 wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote: Hmm... not sure... I'll have to do some more homework into that as I've always been taught that this event occurs at his second coming and not at the end of 1,000 years of peace. I'll look into it and report the findings later.

Jacob 5:76-77 "For behold, for a long time will I lay up of the fruit of my vineyard unto mine own self against the season...And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered...And then cometh the season and the end; and my vineyard will I cause to be burned with fire."

Interesting follow up question...What is "the season." I have some thoughts but would like to hear others.

End of the season (cleansing of the vineyard)....or interpreted a little further - the end of this part of the Plan of Salvation....

It just seems to me like there is a distinction between "the season" and "the end". I think that the season may refer to the millennial feast perhaps to balance out the council that was held before we came here.

chasetafer0707 wrote:

Jason wrote:

chasetafer0707 wrote:Jacob 5:76-77 "For behold, for a long time will I lay up of the fruit of my vineyard unto mine own self against the season...And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered...And then cometh the season and the end; and my vineyard will I cause to be burned with fire."

Interesting follow up question...What is "the season." I have some thoughts but would like to hear others.

End of the season (cleansing of the vineyard)....or interpreted a little further - the end of this part of the Plan of Salvation....

It just seems to me like there is a distinction between "the season" and "the end". I think that the season may refer to the millennial feast perhaps to balance out the council that was held before we came here.

Quite possible and food for thought. In gardening terms and allegory....everything is done in its season. A season of planting, growing, harvest, and last of all cleansing the vineyard. Through out the chapter references are made to the "end of the season that soon cometh"....but that's just my interp fwiw....

According to the gospel principles manual the righteous are caught up to meet him at his coming.

3. He will usher in the Millennium. The Millennium is the thousand-year period when Jesus will reign on the earth. The righteous will be caught up to meet Jesus at His coming (see D&C 88:96). His coming will begin the millennial reign. (Gospel Principles, Chapter 44: The Second Coming of Jesus Christ)

Also
1. He will cleanse the earth. When Jesus comes again, He will come in power and great glory. At that time the wicked will be destroyed. All things that are corrupt will be burned, and the earth will be cleansed by fire (see D&C 101:24–25). (Gospel Principles, Chapter 44: The Second Coming of Jesus Christ)

Some have suggested that the LDS pictures of Christ were inspired or endorsed by the brethren as being accurate. I've heard a few stories about some pictures, but so far all I know is that they are "feel good" stories. I don't know if they are true or where they are written.

Boyd K. Packer wrote The Spirit and the Arts. I think it answers the question of why we don't have better "LDS art". I'd recommend reading the whole article, but here is a part:

I want to respond to a question that I face with some frequency. It has many variations, but the theme is this: Why do we not have more inspired and inspiring music in the Church? Or why do we have so few great paintings or sculptures depicting the Restoration? Why is it when we need a new painting for a bureau of information, or perhaps for a temple, frequently nonmember painters receive the commission? The same questions have an application to poetry, to drama, to dance, to creative writing, to all the fine arts...

The reason why we have not yet produced a greater heritage in art and literature and music and drama is not, I am very certain, because we have not had talented people. For over the years we have had not only good ones but great ones. Some have reached great heights in their chosen fields. But few have captured the spirit of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the restoration of it in music, in art, in literature. They have not, therefore, even though they were gifted, made a lasting contribution to the on rolling of the Church and kingdom of God in the dispensation of the fulness of times. They have therefore missed doing what they might have done, and they have missed being what they might have become. I am reminded of the statement: "There are many who struggle and climb and finally reach the top of the ladder only to find that it is leaning against the wrong wall."

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/GenlAuthor ... pirit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Azriel wrote:Some have suggested that the LDS pictures of Christ were inspired or endorsed by the brethren as being accurate. I've heard a few stories about some pictures, but so far all I know is that they are "feel good" stories. I don't know if they are true or where they are written.

Boyd K. Packer wrote The Spirit and the Arts. I think it answers the question of why we don't have better "LDS art". I'd recommend reading the whole article, but here is a part:

I want to respond to a question that I face with some frequency. It has many variations, but the theme is this: Why do we not have more inspired and inspiring music in the Church? Or why do we have so few great paintings or sculptures depicting the Restoration? Why is it when we need a new painting for a bureau of information, or perhaps for a temple, frequently nonmember painters receive the commission? The same questions have an application to poetry, to drama, to dance, to creative writing, to all the fine arts...

The reason why we have not yet produced a greater heritage in art and literature and music and drama is not, I am very certain, because we have not had talented people. For over the years we have had not only good ones but great ones. Some have reached great heights in their chosen fields. But few have captured the spirit of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the restoration of it in music, in art, in literature. They have not, therefore, even though they were gifted, made a lasting contribution to the on rolling of the Church and kingdom of God in the dispensation of the fulness of times. They have therefore missed doing what they might have done, and they have missed being what they might have become. I am reminded of the statement: "There are many who struggle and climb and finally reach the top of the ladder only to find that it is leaning against the wrong wall."

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/GenlAuthor ... pirit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had to read this quote several times to make sure I was reading it right. Boy, talk about saying something without saying something. This reads "The reason we don't have more gospel art is LDS artists don't do it. Their bad." Well, yah. That's how you not get something is somebody doesn't do it.

I drew several gospel oriented pictures in my journal on my mission, but have never made them public. I think it's an intensely personal decision to publicly portray gospel events and try to monetize it. The fact that I choose not to publish my Gospel art should not, therefore, call down Apostolic scrutiny. Maybe my mind will change at some point, or maybe I'm misunderstanding, but that's IMHO.