LDS Freedom Forum

So I was teaching my 16-18 year old Sunday School class, and one of the kids asked, "When did the Jews loose the Priesthood?"

I said, "Great question."
What do you think?

After Christ ascended to heaven and the Apostles were killed, the authority to act in God's name was lost. This is called the great apostacy. This is when the Jews lost the priesthood.

Thanks Coachmarc. The Apostasy I am aware of. But that was the church as set up by Christ. But the Jews, as in the Sadducees and Pharisee's etc. Held the Priesthood, Caiaphas, was the High Priest. John the Baptists father was the legal heir of the Aaronic Priesthood. There were other active priests. They rightfully held the Aaronic and Levitical Priesthood at the Time of Christ. What happened to it? Did they cease passing it on? Did they loose the right of Priesthood, when they killed and rejected Christ? How did they loose the priesthood and when?

Yes, when they rejected and killed Christ and the Apostles were killed. When they (Pharisees, etc) died, the priesthood died with them.

Yes, when they rejected and killed Christ and the Apostles were killed. When they (Pharisees, etc) died, the priesthood died with them.

I know that's what we say and assume, but where has the Lord actually said that? I lived in a ward once where the Gospel Doctrine teacher was a Jewish convert to the Church, and probably the most interesting GD teacher I've ever had. It was his position that although the priesthood may be dormant among the Jews, he did not feel that they had "lost" the priesthood or the right to have it -- and especially the Aaronic priesthood, which the sons of Levi have a genetic entitlement to. He also felt, and made compelling arguments that ultimately God would raise up prophets among the Jews -- possibly including those who will be killed and lied in the streets of Jerusalem before the Second Coming.

Tmac, that is the answer that came out of me first, is that they still have the priesthood. The Levitical is passed from Father to son as well as the Aaronic. So I also think it is there, just kind of dormant. Even though they have the authority, they don't know how to use it, all the ordinances are dead to them. But I hope to continue to get more insight. Thanks!

I thought the priesthood had to be confired by one in authority. The authority was lost. How would they still have the priesthood? The right was passed from father to son, but wouldn't the confirmation have to take place for the priesthood to be valid?

Good question, but that is how John the Baptist got his authority, and that seemed to be enough for the Savior to be baptized. More and more questions. Thanks for the comment.

The Levitical Jews still have rights to the Aaronic/Levitical Priesthood and the office of a Bishop.

Levitical Jews didn't need the Aaronic priesthood to be confirred upon them.

Levitical Jews were "born in the covenant" so-to-speak.

Hi Davedan, so you believe that they hold the priesthood as a birthright, so the Jews still hold that level of Priesthood even now? Hmmm. That is interesting. Thanks

Here's what Joseph had to say according to the James Burgess Notebook, 23 July 1843. This seems to suggest that authority was not as widely held as we may suppose.

"Luke 16 chap 16 verse. The Law and the Prophets were until John since then the Kingdom of Heaven is preached and all men press into it. We will go back to Mount Scinia where Jesus gave the Law to Moses Exodus 30 chap 30 verse also the last chap 15 verse. The priesthood was given to Aron and his posterity throughout all generations We can trace the leanage down to Zachariah he being the only lawful administrator in his day and the jews knew it well for they always acknowledge the priesthood. and Zachariah having no children. knew that the promise of God must fail, consequently he went into the Temple to wrestle with God according to the order of the priesthood to obtain the promise of a son, and when the Angel told him that his promise was granted he because of unbelief was struck dumb. And when the set time was come John came forth and when he took up his priesthood, he came bounding out of the wideness saying repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. he having received the holy anointing was the only lawful administrator and the jews all knew it for the law and the poppets was until John since then the kingdom of heaven is preached and all men press into it! Why! Why because John was the only lawful administrator and they the Jews well knew it. consequently the only alternative was for them to yield obedience to mandates of this wild man of the woods, namely John or be damned. For all Jerusalem and Judea came out to be babtised of John, sadusees, phrases, Essenees &c For until John was the law and the prophets, since the kingdom of heaven is preached and all men press into it."

I find this interesting. Among all the Jews, John was recognized by lineage as the only legal administrator. Aside from John's lineal right to administer, we have D&C 84:28 telling us that he was "ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power."

So where does John's authority actually come from? Lineage? Laying on of hands? Angelic ordination? Why did his authority recognizably supersede that of other administrators of the gospel? Exodus teaches us that the Levites were to be a gift to the Priests (Num 8:19). But Aaron was also a Levite (Exo 6:19-20). So the Levites that were not Aaron's seed, were helpers to the Levites (Priests) who were Aaron's seed. Were there Levites? Yes. Were there any other of Aaron's descendants around? Apparently not, according to Joseph's statement. However, Annas and Caiaphas were high priests weren't they (Luke 3:2)? Does this suggest that perhaps some corruption had snuck into the process of Priesthood selection around the time of Christ?

This young Sunday School student has asked a great question. In any case, we have some important questions to ask ourselves that have implications for our latter-day situation. What is the nature of our Priesthood, both Aaronic and Melchezidek? Where does it come from? How is it transferred? Can deviations in bestowing it cause it to be invalid? How do we really recognize legal administrators? Joseph tells us how important this is, "Whenever men can find out the will of God & find an Administrator legally authorized from God there is the Kingdom of God but whare these are not, the Kingdom of God is not All the ordinances Systems, & Administrations on the earth is of no use to the Children of men unless they are ordained & authorized of God for nothing will save a man but a legal Administrator for none others will be acknowledge either by God or Angels" (Wilford Woodruff Journal, 22 Jan 1843).

From the above, I draw the following, very non-authoritative, possibly incorrect conclusion. I think that without a literal descendent of Aaron, the Levite administration is not binding, since Levites were only to be a gift to the sons of Aaron in administering ordinances. It was only a high priest who could enter into the Holy of Holies and offer the rites of Atonement on the Day of Atonement. Joseph says that John was the only legal administrator, but there were tons of Levites, right? So their ability to administer must have been tied to his. Doesn't that seem to make sense? That is why finding a literal descendant of Aaron is critical (D&C 88:16). As far as who would be legally authorized to perform a baptism, I am not sure. Could a Levite do it? I don't get that sense without the direction of a son of Aaron. Who knows?

Funny, we really don't know much, but we often think we do.

chasetafer0707 wrote:Here's what Joseph had to say according to the James Burgess Notebook, 23 July 1843. This seems to suggest that authority was not as widely held as we may suppose.

"Luke 16 chap 16 verse. The Law and the Prophets were until John since then the Kingdom of Heaven is preached and all men press into it. We will go back to Mount Scinia where Jesus gave the Law to Moses Exodus 30 chap 30 verse also the last chap 15 verse. The priesthood was given to Aron and his posterity throughout all generations We can trace the leanage down to Zachariah he being the only lawful administrator in his day and the jews knew it well for they always acknowledge the priesthood. and Zachariah having no children. knew that the promise of God must fail, consequently he went into the Temple to wrestle with God according to the order of the priesthood to obtain the promise of a son, and when the Angel told him that his promise was granted he because of unbelief was struck dumb. And when the set time was come John came forth and when he took up his priesthood, he came bounding out of the wideness saying repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. he having received the holy anointing was the only lawful administrator and the jews all knew it for the law and the poppets was until John since then the kingdom of heaven is preached and all men press into it! Why! Why because John was the only lawful administrator and they the Jews well knew it. consequently the only alternative was for them to yield obedience to mandates of this wild man of the woods, namely John or be damned. For all Jerusalem and Judea came out to be babtised of John, sadusees, phrases, Essenees &c For until John was the law and the prophets, since the kingdom of heaven is preached and all men press into it."

I find this interesting. Among all the Jews, John was recognized by lineage as the only legal administrator. Aside from John's lineal right to administer, we have D&C 84:28 telling us that he was "ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power."

So where does John's authority actually come from? Lineage? Laying on of hands? Angelic ordination? Why did his authority recognizably supersede that of other administrators of the gospel? Exodus teaches us that the Levites were to be a gift to the Priests (Num 8:19). But Aaron was also a Levite (Exo 6:19-20). So the Levites that were not Aaron's seed, were helpers to the Levites (Priests) who were Aaron's seed. Were there Levites? Yes. Were there any other of Aaron's descendants around? Apparently not, according to Joseph's statement. However, Annas and Caiaphas were high priests weren't they (Luke 3:2)? Does this suggest that perhaps some corruption had snuck into the process of Priesthood selection around the time of Christ?

This young Sunday School student has asked a great question. In any case, we have some important questions to ask ourselves that have implications for our latter-day situation. What is the nature of our Priesthood, both Aaronic and Melchezidek? Where does it come from? How is it transferred? Can deviations in bestowing it cause it to be invalid? How do we really recognize legal administrators? Joseph tells us how important this is, "Whenever men can find out the will of God & find an Administrator legally authorized from God there is the Kingdom of God but whare these are not, the Kingdom of God is not All the ordinances Systems, & Administrations on the earth is of no use to the Children of men unless they are ordained & authorized of God for nothing will save a man but a legal Administrator for none others will be acknowledge either by God or Angels" (Wilford Woodruff Journal, 22 Jan 1843).

From the above, I draw the following, very non-authoritative, possibly incorrect conclusion. I think that without a literal descendent of Aaron, the Levite administration is not binding, since Levites were only to be a gift to the sons of Aaron in administering ordinances. It was only a high priest who could enter into the Holy of Holies and offer the rites of Atonement on the Day of Atonement. Joseph says that John was the only legal administrator, but there were tons of Levites, right? So their ability to administer must have been tied to his. Doesn't that seem to make sense? That is why finding a literal descendant of Aaron is critical (D&C 88:16). As far as who would be legally authorized to perform a baptism, I am not sure. Could a Levite do it? I don't get that sense without the direction of a son of Aaron. Who knows?

Funny, we really don't know much, but we often think we do.

Excellent thoughts and questions. It highlights the value of the organization that we have, and the precision with which it is administered. This idea tastes good to me, that John was the last with the rights to administer, and after the Jews allowed the last living heir, they cut themselves off from that lineage, and then they killed their king as well. So they killed their priest and their king in a short order, and thus set themselves up for a severe apostasy of their own type.

Great thoughts Chase. Thanks.

even an excommunicated priesthood holder still has priesthood, it is never "re-bestowed", so, I would say, when the ordinance is not done correctly..biggest question is: priesthood is authority, but, POWER in the priesthood is more important? How do Jews bestow priesthood?

sbsion wrote:even an excommunicated priesthood holder still has priesthood, it is never "re-bestowed", so, I would say, when the ordinance is not done correctly..biggest question is: priesthood is authority, but, POWER in the priesthood is more important? How do Jews bestow priesthood?

I think you are definitely right. Priesthood power is the big question. Although, D&C 121 says "Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man."

really, what "good" is priesthood authority, except to officate, unless there is power? I think this means, no more officating

The value in the authority is that if you don't have it you can't have the power. The authority comes before the power, but the power is what is needed for exaltation.

The “woman which was the Church of God…fled into the wilderness,” or fell into apostasy, for 1260 years until its restoration in 1830. (JST Rev. 12:5,7) That could put the date around 570 AD...

"We are informed by the renowned historian, Whelpley, as also in the Revolutions of Europe, that the church of Jesus Christ was overrun, and driven into the wilderness, A.D. 570, and John the Revelator informs us it must remain there 1260 years, which makes exactly the time, the year 1830, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints was organized, with the gifts and blessings." (Times and Seasons, vol 5, p. 732)

"Q. 6. What was the rod?
A. It was the power and priesthood after the holy order of the son of God, which the church had; and was delivered of it, or rather, it was taken from her in the year 570, and the church fell into the hands of the Pope of Rome." (Times and Seasons, vol 6, p. 858)

However, Church ≠ Priesthood ≠ Kingdom all the time, so... whatever. Short answer, we have no idea.

The question takes us back to Daniel. It seems that the Priesthood has two function, the power of the Priesthood, and the authority, or keys, of the Priesthood. There is also the Aaronic or Levitical, and Melchizedek Priesthood. The Levitical Priesthood can either be bestowed by the keys of those holding the higher priesthood, or through the lineage of Levi. This is the only exception to the principle of keys.

The Jews lost the Melchizedek Priesthood years before Christ. Remember, since Moses, the body of the Jews never held this, but it was conferred from prophet to prophet from Moses on down. The last person to hold this, which also hold the sealing power of the Priesthood, was Elijah. So in essence, once Elijah was translated, the Jews lost the governance of the higher priesthood. They were left with only the Levitical side for Jewish temple ordinances.

They lost the power of the lower Priesthood as well, when Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed. Since then, no sacrifices have been made and while the Levitical family lines have perpetuated, the power has been broken, and will be, until the building of a new temple.

pjbrownie wrote:The question takes us back to Daniel. It seems that the Priesthood has two function, the power of the Priesthood, and the authority, or keys, of the Priesthood. There is also the Aaronic or Levitical, and Melchizedek Priesthood. The Levitical Priesthood can either be bestowed by the keys of those holding the higher priesthood, or through the lineage of Levi. This is the only exception to the principle of keys.

The Jews lost the Melchizedek Priesthood years before Christ. Remember, since Moses, the body of the Jews never held this, but it was conferred from prophet to prophet from Moses on down. The last person to hold this, which also hold the sealing power of the Priesthood, was Elijah. So in essence, once Elijah was translated, the Jews lost the governance of the higher priesthood. They were left with only the Levitical side for Jewish temple ordinances.

They lost the power of the lower Priesthood as well, when Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed. Since then, no sacrifices have been made and while the Levitical family lines have perpetuated, the power has been broken, and will be, until the building of a new temple.

I think it is also important to remember the the Lesser priesthood (Aaronic and Levitical, there is a difference) is to administer outward ordinances. For those living a lesser law, the ordinances only gain power as the recipient lives according to the covenant he has made AND walks the path that the ordinance teaches him (ie. in the temple we make covenants, but we also learn about details of the plan of salvation in which we must become participants). The greatest privilege of the Aaronic priesthood is, in my opinion, directly related to the temple "path" in that it holds the key of the administering of angels, which are met along that path.

Speaking of keys. I think we have a very juvenile concept of keys in the church. We tend to think of keys as the right to rule, which would make them administrative in nature. That is so totally backward in my mind. When Joseph was on the earth he went about teaching all sorts of keys. In its infant stages he taught the beginnings of how to identify a true or a false spirit. He expands upon these keys in the endowment. Andrew Ehat, in WJS comments that in the latter part of his life Joseph began to refer to the "keys of the kingdom" in reference to the endowment itself. He taught that he had keys and that the keys to seal with the holy spirit of promise were only ever given to one man (that is not administrative in nature! it is a principle of power!), but we have taken that as license to skew the concept of keys into an administrative vein until our understanding of them is alien in comparison to what Joseph actually taught. He taught that keys were the means to unlock hidden knowledge and power, not to rule over others who have no right to them. I think the Lord would be happy to give every man the keys of his priesthood. I think the endowment proves that. The priesthood is not about compulsion or about one man ruling over another. I need to do a more in depth study on this, but I believe if we study honestly the topic of keys, we may be surprised at what we find.

Great thoughts! I especially agree on the implication on keys. I am congruent with your thoughts chase.

Iamse7en, I think your conclusion is right. I am afraid we may not.

Pjbrownie, I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. One, if they Jews actually actively held the Aaronic priesthood, why was John ordained at the age of 8 days by an angel? And number two, what was there in the destruction of the temple that caused them to loose the priesthood? They lost the place they used it, but what did that have to the loss of the priesthood.

Now a question at large. It seems to me that in killing John the Baptist the jews killed their priest, and in killing Christ they killed their king. They lost all keys at that point, and had no capacity to pass on any authority held by any of them to any new priests etc. So it apostatized just like the Christian church did, by atrophy. Thoughts?

When the Jews were allowed to return from Babylon, something like less than 1/20 chose to return. Among those who had the Aaronic priesthood, the ratio was far less IIRC. I think Elder Talmadge stated something about this in regards to John the Baptist's father (and that was only 500 years after the return!).

The Jewish nation took another severe beating and scattering after the AD 67-70 Roman siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple. But the final nail in the coffin was the AD 135 Roman decimation that occurred due to Simon bar Kokhba's jewish uprising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt
The massive destruction and loss of life occasioned by the revolt has led some scholars to date the beginning of the Jewish diaspora from this date. They note that, unlike the aftermath of the First Jewish-Roman War chronicled by Josephus, the majority of the Jewish population of Judea was either killed, exiled, or sold into slavery after the Bar-Kokhba Revolt, and Jewish religious and political authority was suppressed far more brutally. After the revolt the Jewish religious center shifted to the Babylonian Jewish community and its scholars.

After the dispersion, the Jewish religious structure shifted to synagogues, Rabbis (teachers - NOT priests, and lineage of Judah was acceptable), and focus on the Talmud (commentary on the Torah). IMO, any remembrance of levitical linage was lost over the next 2,0000 years, not to mention was was forgotten once they were captured by Babylon...


Just my thoughts...

Good and interesting. I didn't know about the AD 135 cleansing. I was also not clear on the shirt from temple to synagogues. Thanks

as the story goes:

In AD 135, the Romans forbade any Jew from getting with 100 miles of Jerusalem, and to prevent Jews form coming back fro the foreseeable future, the Romans heavily salted all the fields and landscape so no crops would grow and the people wouldn't be able to feed themselves.

Rand wrote:Now a question at large. It seems to me that in killing John the Baptist the jews killed their priest, and in killing Christ they killed their king. They lost all keys at that point, and had no capacity to pass on any authority held by any of them to any new priests etc. So it apostatized just like the Christian church did, by atrophy. Thoughts?

I'm in agreement. That's a good point. How do we avoid the same fate?