LDS Freedom Forum

Another one of those random thoughts bouncing around in my head....

I have an 18 year old boy who will be going on his mission in about a year. He has been AMAZINGLY diligent in putting almost every penny he has earned aside for the mission, almost never spending any on himself. He also is a full tithe payer who if anything makes sure that he is a full tithe player + (I know there is no such thing, I'll leave it at he is careful to never cheat the Lord.)

Also, it looks unlikely that he will have enough saved to pay for his mission in full, and we intend and are happy to supplement his savings to help pay for the mission.

So here's the question:

For graduation, we were thinking of giving him xxx dollars, which again it is a certainty that all or most of it he would put in his mission fund.

My thought is, if we give him the money, he will pay tithing on it (as he should) - and let me make it clear, his mission is going to be a financial hardship on us - so it seems that we will just be making it even more difficult if we give him money which will have another 10% taken out (on top of the 10% we paid when we earned it). So is it wrong to just say "our gift to you is to help you on your mission" or is that cheating the Lord? I, for one think it is fine, as in a sense ALL of the mission money is going "to the Lord" - but I also feel this is a slippery slope that could actually lead to cheating the Lord.

For instance the Lord has commanded us to get out of debt - therefore paying tithing on money that would otherwise go to paying debt is not necessary as we would still be using it to fulfill the Lord's commandment to us. (I don't believe this, just showing an example.)

Let me just add that although I have a testimony of tithing, there are times that I feel "over tithed" - I do not see myself having increase as we are getting poorer each year and this has been the case over probably the last ten years. (FYI I remained a full tithe payer all of my life even the years when I was inactive.) But that is an aside, I am mostly interested in your thoughts on the scenario above.

One final thought is on inheritance...back in ancient times, if the father of the household tithed on the increase of his flocks, when he passed away I don't believe the son would then tithe 10% of the total flock as increase - but maybe I am wrong. I also have received a small inheritance which I paid a full tithe on - but at the time I didn't feel right about it. I almost feel that living the law of tithing as we are it is more of a burden than the law of consecration (because under consecration we would be paying our debts with consecrated funds).

Original_Intent wrote:Another one of those random thoughts bouncing around in my head....

I have an 18 year old boy who will be going on his mission in about a year. He has been AMAZINGLY diligent in putting almost every penny he has earned aside for the mission, almost never spending any on himself. He also is a full tithe payer who if anything makes sure that he is a full tithe player + (I know there is no such thing, I'll leave it at he is careful to never cheat the Lord.)

Also, it looks unlikely that he will have enough saved to pay for his mission in full, and we intend and are happy to supplement his savings to help pay for the mission.

So here's the question:

For graduation, we were thinking of giving him xxx dollars, which again it is a certainty that all or most of it he would put in his mission fund.

My thought is, if we give him the money, he will pay tithing on it (as he should) - and let me make it clear, his mission is going to be a financial hardship on us - so it seems that we will just be making it even more difficult if we give him money which will have another 10% taken out (on top of the 10% we paid when we earned it). So is it wrong to just say "our gift to you is to help you on your mission" or is that cheating the Lord? I, for one think it is fine, as in a sense ALL of the mission money is going "to the Lord" - but I also feel this is a slippery slope that could actually lead to cheating the Lord.

For instance the Lord has commanded us to get out of debt - therefore paying tithing on money that would otherwise go to paying debt is not necessary as we would still be using it to fulfill the Lord's commandment to us. (I don't believe this, just showing an example.)

Let me just add that although I have a testimony of tithing, there are times that I feel "over tithed" - I do not see myself having increase as we are getting poorer each year and this has been the case over probably the last ten years. (FYI I remained a full tithe payer all of my life even the years when I was inactive.) But that is an aside, I am mostly interested in your thoughts on the scenario above.

One final thought is on inheritance...back in ancient times, if the father of the household tithed on the increase of his flocks, when he passed away I don't believe the son would then tithe 10% of the total flock as increase - but maybe I am wrong. I also have received a small inheritance which I paid a full tithe on - but at the time I didn't feel right about it. I almost feel that living the law of tithing as we are it is more of a burden than the law of consecration (because under consecration we would be paying our debts with consecrated funds).

Sorry to say, but you have not been a wise steward. Sounds brash, but consider it for a moment. Your tithing is to be "10% of your interest annually". If you interpret that differently because of what men said, then you have fallen into error. No Brigham men do not live on the moon, no Joseph you should not have lost the 116 plates or tried to sell the copyright to the BoM, no prophet x you were wrong -- people did get into outer space, and no, interest does not equal income.

Your need to pay for your son's mission is part of your not being an infidel. What you give him decreased your "interest" annually, and had you paid that way, you would not be having this problem right now.

As for me and my house, I pay for my kids shoes and they don't pay tithing on it, so why should they if I give them the money to buy them themselves?

Put aside your understanding of mans tax laws and just do what God asked, and he will love you for it in a way you will never know if you don't. And in that is the real test of faith.

Our kids pay tithing on allowance (which they do chores for) for the sake of teaching them tithing (10% of increase which we interpret as earnings)....but they do not pay tithing on gifts (which they didn't earn). To each their own on it though....I certainly see lots of room for personal interpretation on that one....and ultimately its between them and the Lord.

In my opinion OI you have 2 options. If you give or gift your son money. Then IMHO tithing would be paid by your son. If you decide to pay for his mission thru your monthly donation, then you get the tax deduction, and your son does not need to pay tithing as you are providing for his needs as if he was living at home.

Your question on inheritance. Again IMHO, if I received an inheritance from a relative, I would pay tithing on it. The reason....I have received an increase to what I have.

Now having said that I am sure others will disagree but that would be my approach. I am one of those that pay on my gross. My father when serving as an active Bishop, taught to pay on the Gross. I know others on this forum feel that paying tithing is on your increase, or interest after all your bills, expenses, ect are paid. Too each his own.

The real answer to all this is fasting and prayer, take all the answers you get on this forum, counsel with your Bishop. The Lord will let you know what you need to do. What I think or anyone else thinks is really irrelevant on this issue. In all honesty this is between you and the Lord.

Definition of GIFT
1: a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3: the act, right, or power of giving

Recently I gave my child a car. We made sure our child took all four wheels off and donated them to the church as tithing. Sadly, he has not been able to drive it as he is now trying to find a way to purchase some wheels and tires for it.

We bought our daughter some new clothes as a gift, we asked her to cut off the sleeves to tithe them. Sadly she has not been able to wear them as she is currently saving up to buy material to sew on some sleeves.

I recently had a friend who is a mechanic repair my car free of charge as an act of service/gift since we had experience job loss. If I would have taken it to the shop, it would have cost me $375. Should I tithe on the amount of gifted service I recieved?

Recenly after a member of my family was in the hospital, members of the ward brought us meals for three days. Shall I tithe on the amount of food recieved as a gift act of charity?

Would you expect your child to tithe on the gifts recieved as a gift at Christmas? What if you gave your child money or a gift card for Christmas to purchase what he wanted, would you tell your child to tithe on that?

Gifts are not increase/income imho. They are GIFTS.

(all my examples above are hypothetical in case you couldn't tell, lol)

If it were me, I would look for opportunities for my children to pay tithing (and even hurt some) instead of llooking for exceptions.

davedan wrote:If it were me, I would look for opportunities for my children to pay tithing (and even hurt some) instead of llooking for exceptions.

If it were me, I would tell my children to pay 20%, and ignore the 10%. Double the blessings (and bragging rights)!

ithink wrote: Sorry to say, but you have not been a wise steward. Sounds brash, but consider it for a moment. Your tithing is to be "10% of your interest annually". If you interpret that differently because of what men said, then you have fallen into error. No Brigham men do not live on the moon, no Joseph you should not have lost the 116 plates or tried to sell the copyright to the BoM, no prophet x you were wrong -- people did get into outer space, and no, interest does not equal income.

Your need to pay for your son's mission is part of your not being an infidel. What you give him decreased your "interest" annually, and had you paid that way, you would not be having this problem right now.

As for me and my house, I pay for my kids shoes and they don't pay tithing on it, so why should they if I give them the money to buy them themselves?

Put aside your understanding of mans tax laws and just do what God asked, and he will love you for it in a way you will never know if you don't. And in that is the real test of faith.

OriginalIntent,
I agree with Ithink.
You seem to have a heart of gold... very giving - but too giving & in an unwise direction.
Do you know how "the Lord's" money is being spent?
No, because it's been kept dark & secret from you.
By the look of separate categories for tithing, fast offerings & humanitarian on donation slips... not a penny of tithes go to the poor, despite specific instructions... Deut 14:28,29, Matt 25:40,45.
There are many poor, in fatal need as we speak... who tithes are supposed to go to.

God looks on the heart, not the donation slip. Did Jesus pay tithing? Or did he give, as the good Samaritan gave... as inspired, based on reason & based on the commandment to love others AS we ALSO love ourselves (& our family).

I agree with ithink and thinker. Plus if we were still going on missions by the spirit, and without purse or script, then families would not further be distressed by paying for their kids missions while the corporation sits fat.

i also wanted to add Original intent that you seem like one of the best people on here. You always want to do the right thing.

Paying 20% tithing is looking beyond the mark. The Lord expects us to follow his commands. Not something else. My above post was my attempt at being facetious. Sorry if I didn't make that obvious.

If your gift is a HUGE amount of cash, then your son won't miss much by giving to the Lord the 10% tithe. If its several hundred dollars or a thousand, does it really make a difference. 10% is really very small as compared to the blessings of obedience that come to the one who shows faith. I think it would be wonderful if I gave my kids (all adults now) a sum of money and they paid tithing and offerings with part of it. I would literally cry tears of joy if they all had the amount of faith your son seems to have.

Give him the cash, and let him decide for himself. Free agency! It will be his money, so don't sweat it, or worry about it, and just let him make the decision. Still 10% ain't much as compared to blessings. In other words OI, don't screw it up. Just give it, and let him decide. You don't need to debate the minutae of do we pay, does he pay, does nobody pay.....just give him of opportunity to exercise his faith. You and him will both be blessed.

Squally wrote:Paying 20% tithing is looking beyond the mark. The Lord expects us to follow his commands. Not something else. My above post was my attempt at being facetious. Sorry if I didn't make that obvious.

I know a guy who the bishop asked to pay 20%....he was very blessed financially after some initial hardships.

I know another guy, a farmer in southern idaho, that pays tithing this year on what he wants to make next year....he's also been very blessed.

At the end of the day though its a very personal issue between oneself and the Lord....let the chips fall where they may...

OriginalIntent,
I agree with Ithink.
You seem to have a heart of gold... very giving - but too giving & in an unwise direction.
Do you know how "the Lord's" money is being spent?
No, because it's been kept dark & secret from you.
By the look of separate categories for tithing, fast offerings & humanitarian on donation slips... not a penny of tithes go to the poor, despite specific instructions... Deut 14:28,29, Matt 25:40,45.
There are many poor, in fatal need as we speak... who tithes are supposed to go to.

God looks on the heart, not the donation slip. Did Jesus pay tithing? Or did he give, as the good Samaritan gave... as inspired, based on reason & based on the commandment to love others AS we ALSO love ourselves (& our family).[/quote]




I have been wondering about this myself. My other half refuses to pay tithing for the reason it doesn't go to the poor. Fortunately, he agrees to pay fast offering. Why is the emphasis on paying a full tithe, and not on fast offering?

waking wrote:

Thinker wrote:OriginalIntent,
I agree with Ithink.
You seem to have a heart of gold... very giving - but too giving & in an unwise direction.
Do you know how "the Lord's" money is being spent?
No, because it's been kept dark & secret from you.
By the look of separate categories for tithing, fast offerings & humanitarian on donation slips... not a penny of tithes go to the poor, despite specific instructions... Deut 14:28,29, Matt 25:40,45.
There are many poor, in fatal need as we speak... who tithes are supposed to go to.

God looks on the heart, not the donation slip. Did Jesus pay tithing? Or did he give, as the good Samaritan gave... as inspired, based on reason & based on the commandment to love others AS we ALSO love ourselves (& our family).

I have been wondering about this myself. My other half refuses to pay tithing for the reason it doesn't go to the poor. Fortunately, he agrees to pay fast offering. Why is the emphasis on paying a full tithe, and not on fast offering?

Question like this, we must ask, if they want to truly keep the 2 greatest commandments...
To love God and to love others as ourselves.
And as we love others, we love God:
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...
Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me." -Matt 25:40, 45

Almost 1 Billion of our brothers & sisters are starving to death!
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thinker wrote: Question like this, we must ask, if they want to truly keep the 2 greatest commandments...
To love God and to love others as ourselves.
And as we love others, we love God:
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...
Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me." -Matt 25:40, 45

Note what he also says here...

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.(Matt 22:37-40)

So apparently the Beatles where right when they said "all you need is love".

Jason wrote:

Squally wrote:Paying 20% tithing is looking beyond the mark. The Lord expects us to follow his commands. Not something else. My above post was my attempt at being facetious. Sorry if I didn't make that obvious.

At the end of the day though its a very personal issue between oneself and the Lord....let the chips fall where they may...

I can't agree with you. Yes it is a personal decision what to pay. But not how to pay. The Lord if very clear in Section 119 on what a tithe is. The reason we even have that revelation is that JS didn't know what a tithe was, so he asked.

20% = bishop should be released

kids paying tithing on pocket money? lighten up bro

tithing = TENTH.


TENTH

sweat of brow

on our sweat

what we produce

tithing is 10%

anything else is an OFFERING

that bishop sounds like an idiot

pay more tithing get more blessings

i mean we're sold on tithing that because we are blessed we have to pay him money, now we are greedy we need more?

messed up world

Walden wrote:

Thinker wrote: Question like this, we must ask, if they want to truly keep the 2 greatest commandments...
To love God and to love others as ourselves.
And as we love others, we love God:
"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...
Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me." -Matt 25:40, 45

Note what he also says here...

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.(Matt 22:37-40)

So apparently the Beatles where right when they said "all you need is love".

Yep! :ymhug:
"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." -1John 4:8

The question that is not always clear is: What is love?
IMO, love can be interpreted & expressed an infinite different ways, & learning which is best for each circumstance is a trial & error (active faith) process - but is better off by harmonizing both reason and the spirit.

HOW would Jesus have tithing spent?
What did he say about the good Samaritan & many other parables about loving others as ourselves?

Consider what does this scripture state specifically regarding tithes (which is mysteriously left out of lds bible index & dictionary)...

"At the end of 3 years thou shalt bring forth all the TITHE of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

When you say you owe tithes to God...
Consider who GOD is.
Is God a person... an imperfect person in charge of corporations?
Of course God is not anyone on earth. Even Jesus himself stopped others from equating him with God... "Why callest thou me good? None is good except God."
God IS LOVE... and only a principle like pure LOVE can never fail.

One awesome thing about the gospel, and vital as well, is that even when God gives a seemingly straightforward commandment, there is still some room left for interpretation. God does NOT want mindless robots, that defeats the entire purpose of earth life. This thread is proof of that. Tithing as defined by our MODERN prophets is 10% of our increase. Seems simple enough. But as this thread proves, there is so much more to take into consideration which the church purposely chooses not to expound upon, thus leaving it up to us to enquire of the Lord for guidance.

laronius wrote:Tithing as defined by our MODERN prophets is 10% of our increase. Seems simple enough.

There is nothing simple about modifying a "standing law... forever". If you understand history, religious or otherwise, you will see what is going on well enough. But if Joseph did restore the fullness, then how could a redefinition of tithing improve on what was already full? The answer is certainly that it cannot. There are plenty of other tithing threads on this forum that explain it and I don't want to rehash it here, again.

OH, and btw, welcome, I see you are new.

firend wrote:... Plus if we were still going on missions by the spirit, and without purse or script, then families would not further be distressed by paying for their kids missions while the corporation sits fat.

You make a good point. It reminds me of this: "Therefore, let no man among you, for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry, from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.....And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples."

And the reason being, if you don't have the faith to take advantage of this promise, then you certainly don't have the faith to be the Lord's "disciple". Not only that, but this is giving us a key by which you can discern who is a true disciple, and who is not.

firend wrote:Plus if we were still going on missions by the spirit, and without purse or script, then families would not further be distressed by paying for their kids missions while the corporation sits fat.

When we pay tithing, we must pay it to GOD... not anyone else.
God is love.
The 2 greatest commandments, "which hang all the laws and the prophets" are:
1. Love God (as we love others, we love God & as we don't love others, we don't love God.)
2. Love others as ourselves

God is light and truth... & would show clearly how money is spent, so people can pay knowing they are truly giving it for GOoD.

Thinker wrote:HOW would Jesus have tithing spent?.

parable of talents
wise virgins

vs go without purse and script- give it away and the lord will provide

i dont think he would have built a shopping mall

Hi Aussie,
I agree, I doubt, Jesus would buy a shopping mall or anything like it.
I think Jesus is the exception, as some say, one of the few true Christians.
Most of us are too attached to our luxuries that money can buy, to prioritize God (GOoD) above them.
Of course, some money is needed for the good of ourselves & those we are responsible for.
But most of us in "developed countries" are spoiled compared to the way the majority of the world lives.

What comes to mind when I think of how Jesus would spend tithing... is the parable of the good Samaritan.
Considering that there are almost 1 Billion (1,000,000,000) men, women and children starving, thousands dying every day of starvation, there are many in need. (almost 1 in 7 world-wide) But it's absolutely imperative that we understand the need before digging in to try to help. Of course, nobody's perfect, but as Joseph Smith taught... we need to use both intellect & spirit... "Study it out in your mind and then pray."

The parable of the talents, I believe is about using the gifts we've been given to love in the most effective ways. IMO, Everything in the gospel (good news) centers on loving others as ourselves, which is also loving God. That parable is similar to the teaching of he'd rather us be hot or cold, not luke warm, or else we'll be spit out. Peck likened us to a guided missile - which throughout the course, gets slightly off target, but is then corrected over & over until reaching its target. If we, like the guided missile, are too scared of making a mistake to move, we won't get anywhere. It's better if we screw up but are moving, than being paralyzed. We only "live & learn"... if we take the initiative to live.