LDS Freedom Forum

Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus seems to me to be saying, that since the pharisees are leaders of the church, their instructions ought to be followed. (at least until the law is fulfilled but a few days later) And this, in spite of the fact that they are uninspired, wicked hypocrites. How much more fitting that we follow church leaders in our day who are not as the scribes and the pharisees, but by the best of my discernment do have righteous desires and operate with the spirit--even if they haven't seen God face to face.

so yes, follow the prophet; but sure, keep your eye on the path and the destination.

braingrunt wrote:Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus seems to me to be saying, that since the pharisees are leaders of the church, their instructions ought to be followed. (at least until the law is fulfilled but a few days later) And this, in spite of the fact that they are uninspired, wicked hypocrites. How much more fitting that we follow church leaders in our day who are not as the scribes and the pharisees, but by the best of my discernment do have righteous desires and operate with the spirit--even if they haven't seen God face to face.

so yes, follow the prophet; but sure, keep your eye on the path and the destination.

I see this as Christ saying to observe what they bid of you in respect to things that are legitimate within your calling. Christ also is saying do not follow their works.

So if a wicked leader asks and Elder to assist him with something appropriate, you would naturally gladly obey. If that wicked leader wants you to lie, you would not follow his evil works.

We are to follow God, and help our leaders.

Also, These men that sat in Moses seat were wicked (Matt 23:25-28) They conspired to kill Jesus (Matt 26:3-4) And they even persuaded the multitude to take Barabbas over Christ (Matt 27:20)

This is why we follow God and assist our leaders. Can you imagine thinking the leaders in Christ's day were righteous and being convinced to crucify Christ and let Barabbas go because the leaders said so!

Joseph Smith, "This morning I visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that 'a prophet is always a prophet'; but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such." TPSJ p 278.

Brigham Young, "What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." JD, 9: 149-50.

George Q Cannon, "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man [or woman] though he be a Bishop, an Apostle or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside." Millennial Star 53:658-659, 673-675.

Nephi saw our condition and wrote about it in 2 Nephi 28. We need to learn to trust the Spirit, not the arm of the flesh, or any man. Though as the thread began, we should show deference/respect to those in authority. It teaches us humility and patience.

ATL Wake wrote:Joseph Smith, "This morning I visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that 'a prophet is always a prophet'; but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such." TPSJ p 278.

Brigham Young, "What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." JD, 9: 149-50.

George Q Cannon, "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man [or woman] though he be a Bishop, an Apostle or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside." Millennial Star 53:658-659, 673-675.

Nephi saw our condition and wrote about it in 2 Nephi 28. We need to learn to trust the Spirit, not the arm of the flesh, or any man. Though as the thread began, we should show deference/respect to those in authority. It teaches us humility and patience.

exactly

Point taken about following the pharisees. And Jesus goes on to teach immediately:

(same chapter I quoted before, picking up right where I left off)
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Jesus goes on in his scathing review of the pharisees.
(incidentally that 'call no man father' verse has an interesting JST which may have anti-adam-god implications but that is another topic)

So, there is definitely a balance; and I would not argue otherwise. However, I'm sick of all the implications that there is no scriptural backing to the idea of "follow the prophet". There's some right there in verse 3. I'm confident there's more scriptural backing. We have to be careful not to carry it too far but we also have to know that listening to and heeding church leaders is scriptural and will be a blessing to us. Just all within reason.

(and part of my point was that our leaders are far far far more worthy of being followed (or heeded may be a better word) than than pharisees. And even they should be heeded

braingrunt wrote:However, I'm sick of all the implications that there is no scriptural backing to the idea of "follow the prophet". ... I'm confident there's more scriptural backing.

Implications? There are dozens of statements against the concept of following one man, and you call that "implications"? There is no clear doctrine anywhere to "follow the prophet" as it is taught, as taught in the primary song, certainly not in v3 as you say. The church administers the gospel through the system revealed, and although it's not really followed anymore, the basic framework is still there.

And since you seem to be a firm believer in the modern "follow the prophet" doctrine, why are you "confident" there is more scriptural backing for that doctrine? Wouldn't the word of the prophet be enough?

I guess my concern is when an issue or concern is addressed, there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction, "What have the Brethren said about the matter?"

Should we pay tithing on net or gross? "What have the Brethren said about the matter?"
What kind of movies should we watch? "What have the Brethren said about the matter?"
Is it okay to watch the Superbowl? "What have the Brethren said about the matter?"

The problem comes when the initial question is not asking God. I have no problem listening to conference. But I should follow the doctrine because the Spirit confirms truth rather than because a GA said it.

Frankly, I believe there is a lack of confidence that people will receive an answer. It is much easier to look to "What have the Brethren said about the matter?"

2 Nephi 28 was written about the Latter-day Church. Relying on man is a problem.

On another thread someone said. I believe in following the prophet 1st and having that backed up by personal revelation 2nd. Something along those lines. That attitude is BACKWARDS. It is the Presidents or the Prophets jobs to seek revelation for the WHOLE of a church. For a diverse group of individuals. Collective revelations do not encompass the need for personal revelations first and foremost. We can receive Christ by receiving the word's of those he places in a position to teach and lead. Their words should only be backing up and confirming your OWN sought after and diligent PERSONAL studies and prayer received revelations. People really need to get this in their heads. Including ME.

It is not ANYONE's responsibility to receive revelation for your PERSONAL matter concerning you and your family and where you stand on your path with the Lord. This is where the parable of the ten virgins REALLY comes into play. We have each GOT to learn to receive the Holy Ghost and how to receive revelations for ourselves that will save us. Relying on others revelations is not going to save you and if you don't figure out how to recognize his voice and hear it now it will be TOO late at a certain point.

ithink wrote: There is no clear doctrine anywhere to "follow the prophet" as it is taught, as taught in the primary song, certainly not in v3 as you say. The church administers the gospel through the system revealed, and although it's not really followed anymore, the basic framework is still there.

ithink, in this regard, I don't think you think. I am not going to play the game of who can get the most quotes and twist them to their desire, but the spirit speaks that our obligation is to "follow the prophet". I covenant to do so. You may not have, but I have. I know if I follow the prophet, I will never be led astray. I know if you want to choose to parse and pick and choose which counsel to follow, you are playing a game against someone much smarter than you, and you will not win that game.

Doctrine & Covenants 28:

2 "But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to recieve commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

3 And thou shall be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, . . .



6 And thou shalt not command him who is at they head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead."

exactly. Revelations for THE CHURCH. For the church as a WHOLE. No one else has the right to receive revelation for the whole of the church either. I don't see anyone trying to direct the church but those who have been sustained to do so by common consent. But this does not mean we are exempt from receiving personal revelation. We are required to do so. I could post a ton of quotes and scriptures that say so. Even tells us we don't need to be COMMANDED in all things. If we lived by the Spirit we wouldn't need these prophets to come tell us these things. But I digress.

I try to live as to have the Spirit of the Lord with me, that is the thing that I work at most in this life.
I figure if I do that everything church related will fall into place.
Many times I have listened to an apostle speak or a seventy and I have hoped to have the Spirit accompany this persons words, sometimes I did feel the Spirit and sometimes I did not.
I will follow a man that speaks with the Spirit to the death. One that does not speak with the power of the Holy Spirit I will not follow, I don't care what his position.

please don't consider this post a rebuttal. I mostly agree with you all; but I just want to continue the scriptural backing for the idea of "follow the prophet". I'm convinced according to scripture, there must be a right way to follow the prophet, or else the lord wouldn't have said this stuff. You all have good arguments and evidence that there is a wrong way to follow the prophet as well.

continuing with the "seat of moses" idea:

Doctrine and Covenants 107:91-92
91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—
92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.

And what did moses do? He was to "to the people god-ward"; he instructed and judged all matters. His authority was extensive and complaints against him produced striking results. Of course, the people he was dealing with needed a very strict law, and by way of rebuttal to myself it's worth noting that Moses lamented that the people would not have a personal relationship with God. According to the DC our church president is to be like him.

Direct revelation to us useless or precluded if we won't heed a prophet?

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Along the same lines, we build upon and grow from prophets and apostles. To me this pertains to personal revelation and growth as well:

Ephesians 2:19-20
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Dont get cut off!

DC 1
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

2Chr 20:20
20 ¶And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

[/quote]

There are also plenty of scriptures which say that the prophets are spokesmen for god.

I want to reiterate that I don't advocate rabid devotion to any man, or elevating him to perfection. I just want to show that indeed men can be called into leadership; this is scriptural; and by extension this implies that people are called into "followship". Respect, heed and "followship" should be our default mode for the prophets and exceptions to those must be given by the spirit; and be careful with it.

We must follow Jesus directly, and get much inspiration of our own directly or we're spiritually dead. But this does not preclude following and respecting prophets in their spheres.

I can agree with you braingrunt. I see what you are trying to say. I think it all comes back to how one views what following the prophet means. That simple term doesn't really have any power in and of itself. If a person wants to say they Follow the Prophet but that person seeks after Christ and relys on personal revelation and is actively seeking to learn how to have personal revelation from the Lord on a regular basis then saying they "follow the prophet" is of no consequence. People can word things however they like. The problem only comes from how people choose to believe what "following the prophet" means. The reason some people like my self cringe at the phrase "follow the prophet" is because we equate it with what context the phrase was first coined under and the way that people interpret that phrase because of the context is was coined under. The context that phrase was coined under had the underlying mantras that the Prophet COULD NEVER lead you astray. That is was IMPOSSIBLE for them to make a mistake. And that IF they asked you to do something you knew to be wrong to do it anyway and you would be blessed. And I believe it was right around this same time that many people began to place the leaders on a pedistool of sorts and now its taught all over to be blindly obedient and to "follow the prophet" and if you don't you will go to hell and if you do you will be saved. And this attitude puts your personal Salvation in the hands of a leader and not where it should be. Between you and Christ. So how people interpret what following the prophet means is really where the disagreements lie.

I know that not everyone who says they follow the prophet are relying on the leaders more then they should. There are some who have a correct understand of our leaders roles. Many, don't though. And to a degree its not their faults because its what they have been taught their whole lives. And to get out from under that takes a considerable amount of shifting of ones views.

Rand wrote:ithink, in this regard, I don't think you think. I am not going to play the game of who can get the most quotes and twist them to their desire, but the spirit speaks that our obligation is to "follow the prophet". I covenant to do so. You may not have, but I have. I know if I follow the prophet, I will never be led astray. I know if you want to choose to parse and pick and choose which counsel to follow, you are playing a game against someone much smarter than you, and you will not win that game.

I respect you thinking I don't think. But whether you think I think or not is not the question, but rather whether what I think is right or wrong, true or false, good, or bad. Rest assured that no matter the accuracy of my words -- I think.

Myself, I never covenanted to follow any man, nor will I ever. I don't even sustain men per se, but rather what they do that is good. I expect that same from them in reverse, but expect no man to sustain or follow another, but in the correct path they have trod. Make sense?

Deborah000 wrote:Doctrine & Covenants 28: 3 And thou shall be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, . . .

Interesting wording here. Not obedient "to him", but obedient to "the things" which he was given, that he gives to us. That is how I think, that seem right to me. That leaves the arm of flesh out of it, and seems a reference to the law, rather than the person.

Following the prophet is the beginning, not the end.

We should never say to ourselves "Well, this must not be important, because if it was, the prophet would have said so."

The President of the Church is not only the prophet to the millions of members, but to the world. While the prophet and the other general authorities may often give messages of deeper doctrine, it is important to remember that everything that they say is for the entire world, a "wide net". President Packer and others have alluded to the fact that if we hear their words only, that we are missing the more important message. We must be instructed by the spirit, because the spirit can give each of us individually the message that we need.

Over time our lives should be naturally in alignment with what the prophet says. We still should be doing what he says, but it will be naturally what we want to be doing, not doing it for the sake of obeying the prophet. Our will, the prophet's will, and the Lord's will become one. As this becomes the case we become more open to revelation and to specific instruction and ministering of angels for our own specific needs and desires to serve.

We should be anxiously engaged in a good cause. This doesn;t necessarily mean millions of us doing exactly the same thing day after day like automatons. We know that it is much more efficient to have "divisions of labor" - and of course the prophet is not going to go around giving those millions of people individual instructions. No, we know that each individual is given certain gifts; we are instructed to be members in the body of Christ, and that one body part should not say to another body part that what they are doing is more important. Each has a role to fill and a stewardship.

I do feel that most of us are far too passive, waiting to be instrcuted by the prophet before acting. I think that is what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and others warn about. We should never become so dependent on the prophet that we fail to act until "commanded in all things". Thus, we see that we should both follow the prophet and also seek after the promptings of the spirit and follow that instruction as well. We are likely under condemnation for failing to do as the prophet instructs, but also under condemnation for not moving beyond that and seeking our own salvation.

I think that the current authorities of the Church are responsible for the running of the Church. We ought to respect them, sustain them, speak kindly of them, and as they reveal general programs by which they are attempting to bless the lives of others, we should participate. We should NOT seek to supplant personal revelation by appeals to the words of Church Presidents or their counselors. We should NOT look to the example of the brethren to make personal decisions concerning our own lives. We should NOT allow their word to supercede the Spirit's direction in our lives. We should NOT depend upon them for our interpretation of scriptures or doctrine. To place into the hands of men those things intended to be placed in the hands of a patriarch (lowercase p) is foolish. We ought to recognize that there is a difference between the Church, as a support organization, and the family, as the primary unit of gosepel learning and revelation in our daily lives. The Church leaders seem to have authority to administer within the Church, but they do not have authority to dictate to us our spirituality or our relationship with God. That is an ultimately personal experience, I believe. In the absence of God's personal, individual ministration in our own lives to give us priesthood power and a promise of limitless posterity, the Church has the responsibility to adminster ordinances to families to invite us to that end of meeting our Father and becoming ultimately autonomous as family units led by the authority of a righteous father, a Patriarch (capital P). That seems to be the point anyway, becoming able to act for ourselves with complete, exalted autonomy, while still being subject to our Father (I believe this is a type found in the Lamoni story). This autonomy does not undermine Church authority but supercedes it eventually. However, I think very few men have reached this status. Those who do arrive at this point have a perpetuation of seed and a posterity that is blessed forever. This is my opinion, and it is not based upon specific scriptures that say "do" or "don't" follow the prophet. Rather, it is based upon my understanding of the doctrine of what we are to ultimately become. There is something qualitatively different between the Patriarchal order and the Hierarchal order, as present-day apostles have willingly conceded. I think the Church is a tool, not an end. The question is, where are we trying to go and what are we trying to become. That is a question that you must answer for yourself, and no man can act as proxy for you in doing so.

chasetafer0707 wrote:I think that the current authorities of the Church are responsible for the running of the Church. We ought to respect them, sustain them, speak kindly of them, and as they reveal general programs by which they are attempting to bless the lives of others, we should participate. We should NOT seek to supplant personal revelation by appeals to the words of Church Presidents or their counselors. We should NOT look to the example of the brethren to make personal decisions concerning our own lives. We should NOT allow their word to supercede the Spirit's direction in our lives. We should NOT depend upon them for our interpretation of scriptures or doctrine. To place into the hands of men those things intended to be placed in the hands of a patriarch (lowercase p) is foolish. We ought to recognize that there is a difference between the Church, as a support organization, and the family, as the primary unit of gosepel learning and revelation in our daily lives. The Church leaders seem to have authority to administer within the Church, but they do not have authority to dictate to us our spirituality or our relationship with God. That is an ultimately personal experience, I believe. In the absence of God's personal, individual ministration in our own lives to give us priesthood power and a promise of limitless posterity, the Church has the responsibility to adminster ordinances to families to invite us to that end of meeting our Father and becoming ultimately autonomous as family units led by the authority of a righteous father, a Patriarch (capital P). That seems to be the point anyway, becoming able to act for ourselves with complete, exalted autonomy, while still being subject to our Father (I believe this is a type found in the Lamoni story). This autonomy does not undermine Church authority but supercedes it eventually. However, I think very few men have reached this status. Those who do arrive at this point have a perpetuation of seed and a posterity that is blessed forever. This is my opinion, and it is not based upon specific scriptures that say "do" or "don't" follow the prophet. Rather, it is based upon my understanding of the doctrine of what we are to ultimately become. There is something qualitatively different between the Patriarchal order and the Hierarchal order, as present-day apostles have willingly conceded. I think the Church is a tool, not an end. The question is, where are we trying to go and what are we trying to become. That is a question that you must answer for yourself, and no man can act as proxy for you in doing so.

Your whole point here is essentially what I think. The Church is "The Church of" what? OF "Jesus Christ", and OF "Latter-Day Saints". We are not saints of a church, we are a church of a saviour, and of a membership who are or can be called saints. How intuitive of you to point out this does not undermine church authority, but supercedes it, and this point is borne out even in the very name of the church itself. Like government, we created the church and we are the church, and the axe cannot wield itself against him that formed it.