LDS Freedom Forum

I want the gift of healing. I want my words to be sealed on earth as they are in heaven. I want when the pestilences come to this earth...to be able to lay my hands on my family and others...and pronounce the Lord's healing in His name.

I would think that many of us want the same with what is to come. I have felt the words of the Lord to my mind in blessings. I have also received them.

I remember hearing a friend of mine tell me the story of a fairly wayward missionary companion...who had been given the gift of healing...and that he would lay his hands on people and that because he had been given this "gift" that all people would immediately recover.

I am seeking diligently the best gifts...namely the gift of healing. I hope receive it. When I lay my hands on someone and they don't recover quickly...I think..."Is my faith not sufficient"....and "Am I not sufficiently clean"? Perhaps it is not...and I am not.

My son is sick right now...I gave him a blessing and he is doing a lot better a couple of days later. People often say "Well you've got to give the blessing a chance to work"...is that doctrinally based?

I thought we might discuss insights on this topic....if you have any.

It is a hard thing for me to understand or even comprehend the power of the priesthood, especially with verses like:

Jacob 4: 6.
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

I know the power of the priesthood is very real, I understand it operates by faith, I know that it is the power to act in God's name, For me though, I feel it is the difference between being inspired by the spirit (and so being guided as what to say, having the power to act in the name of God within his control), and having faith sufficient in Him (and Him in you) that he lets you take the reigns and whatever you say can come to pass because His will and your will are in complete alignment?

I recently had a situation where my newborn son was left with me alone for the first time. For some reason (I did not know why), he started screaming. not just screaming, but HYSTERICAL screaming, and I could not make him stop. this went on for 15-20 mins. I done all the 'necessary checks' and all was well, but he just would not get out of his state. So I said a prayer and then was inspired to give him a blessing of comfort. I gave him a blessing which he screamed his head off the whole way through and here my thoughts were ' I hope this works' and trusted God. as I was closing, as soon as I said 'In the name of Jesus Christ', He instantly stopped crying and went completely calm, and I kind of burst out in an amazed laugh,
at his instantaneous reaction to those words.

It was a great experience for me. I felt 'I hope his works', but also expecting it to work, but also expecting to be guided by the spirit, as if I am not ready to act on my own. If that makes sense. Like I have faith in God that whatever He wants will come to pass, but lacking faith in myself to determine his will with a surety.

Maybe in times of great need or great responsibility we will be entrusted and we will be required and 'ready' to act on our own, and have that power to truly move mountains and seas because we don't just seek Gods guidance, but know his will. IMO.

Stephen wrote:I want the gift of healing. I want my words to be sealed on earth as they are in heaven. I want when the pestilences come to this earth...to be able to lay my hands on my family and others...and pronounce the Lord's healing in His name.

I would think that many of us want the same with what is to come. I have felt the words of the Lord to my mind in blessings. I have also received them.

I remember hearing a friend of mine tell me the story of a fairly wayward missionary companion...who had been given the gift of healing...and that he would lay his hands on people and that because he had been given this "gift" that all people would immediately recover.

I am seeking diligently the best gifts...namely the gift of healing. I hope receive it. When I lay my hands on someone and they don't recover quickly...I think..."Is my faith not sufficient"....and "Am I not sufficiently clean"? Perhaps it is not...and I am not.

My son is sick right now...I gave him a blessing and he is doing a lot better a couple of days later. People often say "Well you've got to give the blessing a chance to work"...is that doctrinally based?

I thought we might discuss insights on this topic....if you have any.

You very first paragraph struck a cord with me. I know someone who's PB you have almost said word for word....... Does that phrase come from a certain scripture or something?

I think that if you desire it, it will be so. Just like we learn other things line upon line, I believe it is the same with the priesthood. You grow through the use of it, just like your testimony grows through giving it.

As you see your faith in action, your faith increases.

drjme...

Great thoughts. It seems to me that "Gods will" must be sought in a blessing...and yet there is also a "gift of healing" which can be given...and an ability of the elders to lay their hands upon an afflicted individual and for them to pronounce what the Lord's will is. Does that make sense?

Elders who can heal should seek the gift of healing and seek to exercise that power in accordance with the will of the Lord.

That story regarding the wayward elder who would heal everyone is intriguing to me. He had a gift. I was also told it was proclaimed to him in his patriarchal blessing. We believe that the priesthood is exercised on "principles of righteousness"...and yet that may be trumped to some degree if someone has been given the "gift". It reminds me of the story of Samson. He was given a gift of strength...and he continued having that strength even after he had done some awful things. It wasn't until he broke the law of God as a Nazarite that he lost his gift. Interesting.

When we obtain a blessing from God it is by "obedience to that law upon which it is predicated".

It seems to me that the charge to the Elders is in the scriptures is to heal...not to maybe heal. Still...if it is the Lord's will. I have given blessing to 3 people just before death. In all 3 cases it seemed evident to me that the Lord was bringing them home....and it was not my place to prolong that meeting.

Years ago as a missionary...I believe it was Paul H. Dunn came through our mission....and we chatted about doctrine. He said "You want to know why Elders don't heal more people...because their chicken!! They are afraid to pronounce healing to a sick person and to have that person not immediately recover". He also said that "Too many Elders don't even attempt to know what the will of the Lord is in a blessing....they just start talking...they don't pause to consider what the Lord's will is.". Whether you consider that a valid source or not...it is still intriguing....and it has stuck in my brain.


LoveChrist...

What is a PB? The "on earth as it is in heaven" is scriptural...but the rest was me just talking.

I thought your point regarding growing through the use of it is very true. You know it is interesting...when you study the early restored church it is evident that they were giving blessings to people all the time. I think that we have largely lost that culture.

I was thinking of a time in church history when there was a sickness that swept through a camp that Joseph Smith was in. He went around giving blessings and healing people on the spot. Soon after they were healed they would become sick again. He said something to the effect that he was having a hard time healing the people fast enough..

Another thing to consider is the source of sickness. The Christian Scientist Church...as I have been told by a member....believes that all sickness comes from bad thoughts. I think that many saints would balk at that idea as being primitive..."For we know with modern science that germs and disease cause sickness"...and yet there is much that is true to that statement that sickness comes from bad thoughts. It is obvious that those who become spiritually sick can become physically sick.

I have jumped around in my thoughts I know...I have written as things have come to mind...instead of going over this repeatedly I just submit it....perhaps my conclusions will be attacked...that is fine...I hope to reach some greater conclusions.

PB = Patriarchal Blessing

I think that thoughts are VERY powerful

"As a man thinketh so is he"

"What you think about you bring about"

Prov. 23: 7
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:

See also Agency; Ponder

Ideas, concepts, and images in a person’s mind. The power to think is a gift from God, and we are free to choose how we use our power to think. The way we think greatly affects attitudes and behavior, as well as our standing after this life. Righteous thoughts lead to salvation; wicked thoughts lead to damnation.

The Lord understands all the imaginations of the thoughts, 1 Chr. 28: 9. As he thinketh in his heart, so is he, Prov. 23: 7. My thoughts are not your thoughts, Isa. 55: 7-9. Jesus knew their thoughts, Matt. 12: 25 (Luke 5: 22; 6: 8). From within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, Mark 7: 20-23. Bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ, 2 Cor. 10: 5. Whatsoever things are true, honest, pure, or lovely, think on these things, Philip. 4: 8. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal, 2 Ne. 9: 39. If ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, ye must perish, Mosiah 4: 30. Our thoughts will condemn us, Alma 12: 14. Only God knows the thoughts and intents of thy heart, D&C 6: 16 (D&C 33: 1). Look unto me in every thought, D&C 6: 36. Treasure up in your minds the words of life, D&C 84: 85. Cast away your idle thoughts, D&C 88: 69. The thoughts of men’s hearts will be revealed, D&C 88: 109. Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly, D&C 121: 45. Every man’s thoughts were evil continually, Moses 8: 22.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/t/22

some make think that I am strange for saying this, but here goes. There is a pure intelligence that we cannot see with our eyes, but it responds to our thoughts, our FAITH.

D&C 131
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.


We can truly bring things to pass with our thoughts that are full of faith. (the opposite is true as well)

I will not go into this any further, but it is a thought.

I think the saying "give it time to work" is hui. My immediate scripture is D&C 42:43. I think that faith is probably the least understood concept in the world.

We know that faith is not a perfect knowledge but is incremental to that point. That we can increase in faith until we do posses a perfect knowledge.

We do not have a perfect knowledge of God's will, but we do posses a pretty good understanding of His character. We may exercise faith in that believing and fully expecting (but not knowing) that because God loves us all, that he does not desire that any should suffer.

Faith likewise fulfills a higher purpose than justice. We know that because mercy can satisfy justice, because taking on our physical imperfections was part of the atonement.

Therefore we need not say that some purpose is being robbed by removing the sickness/trial.

Even if if someone needs to go through trial or opposition, we have the example of (3rd) Nephi in which Nephi is told that whatever he binds on earth shall be bound in heaven as law. Thus he is able to fulfill the need in another way. The Lord's purposes were not frustrated in turning the war to famine and neither will they be in our healing the sick!

Our faith is in our knowledge of God (which is knowledge. We have tried that seed and we do know Him, or else we have hope and perhaps faith but no testimony). Since we know His character and have much precedent by which to know His desires and will, we may act in full confidence of faith that because the thing we seek is good, God is bound to sustain it. Regardless.

Perhaps the person will suffer again. Perhaps their faith is insufficient? I do not know. But I do know that God cannot deny a righteous blessing regardless of purpose (that can always be fulfilled in another way).

The principle of faith. The witness of the priesthood used in faith is the higher purpose. Think of Christ's words regarding many of His blessings, nevertheless that ye may see that the Son hath power to... That they would see was half the motivation!

I believe that the faith of either the giver or the recipient is all that is required to work the miracle. We know that those baptized by someone found to be unworthy at the time need not be repeated. Likewise by our faith we may work all of the mighty miracles necessary in this life to the purposes God has set before us.

We need not wonder if we are obliging His will as His will is defined as all that is good. Inasmuch as we are able to distinguish good from bad, we are able to distinguish His will and act in faith if not knowledge that His purposes will be fulfilled thereby.

I think also of the parable of the Olive grove in which the Master just wants to burn it every time it brings forth corrupt fruit at the end (God does have a sense of humor) His will is changed however by the Servant who convinces Him to try one more thing.

We would not bother to pray if we did not believe that God's will could be changed or affected by our pleadings.

Knowing all of the above and acting in that understanding will bring forth the blessings you seek.

Stephen wrote:drjme...


I thought your point regarding growing through the use of it is very true. You know it is interesting...when you study the early restored church it is evident that they were giving blessings to people all the time. I think that we have largely lost that culture.


Another thing to consider is the source of sickness. The Christian Scientist Church...as I have been told by a member....believes that all sickness comes from bad thoughts. I think that many saints would balk at that idea as being primitive..."For we know with modern science that germs and disease cause sickness"...and yet there is much that is true to that statement that sickness comes from bad thoughts. It is obvious that those who become spiritually sick can become physically sick.

Steven 2 things first good point about the loss of our culture.


know about the "cause of disease" it is far from fact that germs cause disease or as we call it in chiropractic dis-ease: we are taught and I believe that there are 3 main causes of dis-ease the 3 T's Trauma Toxins and Thoughts

So the the philosophy is that we are self healing organisms with the Innate Intelligence given us by the Universal Intelligence (thinly veiled spirit given us by our Father In Heaven) As the 3 T's enter our physiology they inhibit our ability to heal ourselves.

We all have "germs" in and around us all the time yet some of us are never sick and some are sick all the time, IMHO the Germ theory along with genetic predetermined action theory is at odds with the gospel. we choose we are not forced by germs or genes.

I have to agree on the three T's.

As I was going to an acupuncturist I realized these things. My trauma was not only physical, but emotional from past experiences.

When I believed that I could heal, I was healed.

Then there are the toxins, and they are everywhere, but if we choose to be selective in our eating, cleanse our bodies, we can choose to change this as well.

Our thoughts can destroy or build. When I was in a very difficult time in my life, I thought I wanted to die. I thought about it so much, that one day I was feeling really bad and went to the Dr. They told me I was dying. And they didn't know how. My body temperature was cold, and my blood was slowing and thickening. They wrapped me in heated blankets and everything to try to increase circulation, and then a nurse came in and said, you must choose to live. She started talking about my children and my husband and the people that needed me, and I decided to live.

I immediate had my heart rate return to normal and my body temperature too.

May sound strange, but my grandmother also told me of a time that she stopped labor until the dr did what she wanted.

It is completely possible.

Think yourself well. Choose to make better choices, and your health improves.

Our bodies are awesome healing and creating machines. Give it the right fuel, keep it free of stuff that gums up the works, and health improves.

Stephen wrote:drjme...

Great thoughts. It seems to me that "Gods will" must be sought in a blessing...and yet there is also a "gift of healing" which can be given...and an ability of the elders to lay their hands upon an afflicted individual and for them to pronounce what the Lord's will is. Does that make sense?

Elders who can heal should seek the gift of healing and seek to exercise that power in accordance with the will of the Lord.

That story regarding the wayward elder who would heal everyone is intriguing to me. He had a gift. I was also told it was proclaimed to him in his patriarchal blessing. We believe that the priesthood is exercised on "principles of righteousness"...and yet that may be trumped to some degree if someone has been given the "gift". It reminds me of the story of Samson. He was given a gift of strength...and he continued having that strength even after he had done some awful things. It wasn't until he broke the law of God as a Nazarite that he lost his gift. Interesting.

When we obtain a blessing from God it is by "obedience to that law upon which it is predicated".

It seems to me that the charge to the Elders is in the scriptures is to heal...not to maybe heal. Still...if it is the Lord's will. I have given blessing to 3 people just before death. In all 3 cases it seemed evident to me that the Lord was bringing them home....and it was not my place to prolong that meeting.

Years ago as a missionary...I believe it was Paul H. Dunn came through our mission....and we chatted about doctrine. He said "You want to know why Elders don't heal more people...because their chicken!! They are afraid to pronounce healing to a sick person and to have that person not immediately recover". He also said that "Too many Elders don't even attempt to know what the will of the Lord is in a blessing....they just start talking...they don't pause to consider what the Lord's will is.". Whether you consider that a valid source or not...it is still intriguing....and it has stuck in my brain.


LoveChrist...

What is a PB? The "on earth as it is in heaven" is scriptural...but the rest was me just talking.

I thought your point regarding growing through the use of it is very true. You know it is interesting...when you study the early restored church it is evident that they were giving blessings to people all the time. I think that we have largely lost that culture.

I was thinking of a time in church history when there was a sickness that swept through a camp that Joseph Smith was in. He went around giving blessings and healing people on the spot. Soon after they were healed they would become sick again. He said something to the effect that he was having a hard time healing the people fast enough..

Another thing to consider is the source of sickness. The Christian Scientist Church...as I have been told by a member....believes that all sickness comes from bad thoughts. I think that many saints would balk at that idea as being primitive..."For we know with modern science that germs and disease cause sickness"...and yet there is much that is true to that statement that sickness comes from bad thoughts. It is obvious that those who become spiritually sick can become physically sick.

I have jumped around in my thoughts I know...I have written as things have come to mind...instead of going over this repeatedly I just submit it....perhaps my conclusions will be attacked...that is fine...I hope to reach some greater conclusions.

Stephen,

A couple of thoughts. Again, you know me, and I am glad you brought this up because it is also something that is on my mind. I agree with Paul Dunn on the Elders being chicken. I felt that way when being on my own mission. Of course there were few Elders even worthy or obedient enough to have the will of the Lord revealed to them in such a way.

I had been studying these principles while in Sweden on my mission and was out street contacting one day. There is an inordinate number of crazy people in Sweden for some reason. And the missionaries get the "opportunity" to meet them all. At least I am pretty sure that I did. But there was one time when contacting people in the town square area that a man had a psychotic episode and was screaming and running around. I was looking at him and he was not looking at anybody, but he looked me directly in the eye, as if almost to ask me for help. At that moment the Spirit told me to go to him and cast out the devils. I did not do it. I simply walked away.

I remember that experience to this day because of the impression that it had on me. I was recieiving a command from the Spirit to do something, and I balked. I promised myself never again. So to this day I act on any premonition that I have whether I think it is from the Spirit or not. this is my way of discerning and practicing to know the difference.

My oldest son was partially autistic for a few years. I prayed and fasted and felt inspired to bless him. It took a few weeks, but as a result of that blessing he came out of the autism and is a normal healthy boy now. I do not say this to boast, but simply to point out that healings do work, on the Lords time.

I think some of the thoughts here are on the right track. It is about acquiring the knowledge and faith to "KNOW" the Lords will, and then excercising that faith to the cleansing of your own inner vessel so that your will is swallowed up in the will of the Father. Just like the example that the Savior set for us time and again.

My other son is also on the Autism scale. I am preparing myself and others to assist me in giving him a special blessing in a few months to heal him according to my faith and the Lords will. Sometimes such trials as not being healed or fully healed I truly believe are necessary for us to experience and know all that the Lord has in store for us and to truly fulfill our missions on this earth.


Shawn

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:We would not bother to pray if we did not believe that God's will could be changed or affected by our pleadings.

Hey Pitchfire,

Pretty good stuff, I do wonder about the above though. It would seem to me that it is not changing God's will so much as it is humbling and changing ourselves to match His will for us. The Lord has said that he knows what we have need of before we even ask, and wants to bless us with it, just that we need to make the necessary changes in our own life to be fully worthy of receiving those blessings.

Shawn

Joseph Smith prayed 3 times about the 116 pages and then reaped the consequences of 'changing the Lord's mind."

It can be done. But it is not to our benefit that is for sure.

Just as their is heavenly power of goodness there is the opposite.

I prefer to focus on the good however.

Exactly ShawnC, and exactly Charity...

We can obtain the wrong "blessing" but the point is to align ourselves with what is right. But we obtain Nephi's promise when we cease to ask for that which is contrary to God's will.

My point was not to infer that we are really changing His mind, but rather enabling Him to bless us through use of the same agency by which we are obliged to seek the blessing to overcome the results of the same agency by which we painted ourselves into a corner.

We make our choices and often by them paint ourselves into a corner and then try to pray our way out. By aligning ourselves in humility with what we then know is/was right, we can change events and utilize faith for our good. Not that we change His mind, but rather allow Him to bless us by removing the block (damn) that our agency has placed in the way, and open up the door to miraculous intervention to avert unnecessary pain and sorrow.

To make an analogy., it reminds me of a kid who is getting a lesson and mucks things up and gets stuck and in humility cries out for help. They have learned their lesson by the calamity their choices have brought, but they are unable to undo what was done. The loving parent however rescues the child, takes over, and quickly makes things right. In our humility and knowledge that our good Father will save us, we obtain intervention. We can count on that.

LoveChrist wrote:Joseph Smith prayed 3 times about the 116 pages and then reaped the consequences of 'changing the Lord's mind."

It can be done. But it is not to our benefit that is for sure.

Just as their is heavenly power of goodness there is the opposite.

I prefer to focus on the good however.

I disagree on this. Mormon tells us in the Book Of Mormon that he included certain parts of certain plates not knowing why only "for a wise purpose". How can we change the Lord's mind for something that is already known to him. I believe this is trying to put our worldly human attributes on the perfect being who is God. Know what I mean?

Shawn

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Exactly ShawnC, and exactly Charity...

We can obtain the wrong "blessing" but the point is to align ourselves with what is right. But we obtain Nephi's promise when we cease to ask for that which is contrary to God's will.

My point was not to infer that we are really changing His mind, but rather enabling Him to bless us through use of the same agency by which we are obliged to seek the blessing to overcome the results of the same agency by which we painted ourselves into a corner.

We make our choices and often by them paint ourselves into a corner and then try to pray our way out. By aligning ourselves in humility with what we then know is/was right, we can change events and utilize faith for our good. Not that we change His mind, but rather allow Him to bless us by removing the block (damn) that our agency has placed in the way, and open up the door to miraculous intervention to avert unnecessary pain and sorrow.

To make an analogy., it reminds me of a kid who is getting a lesson and mucks things up and gets stuck and in humility cries out for help. They have learned their lesson by the calamity their choices have brought, but they are unable to undo what was done. The loving parent however rescues the child, takes over, and quickly makes things right. In our humility and knowledge that our good Father will save us, we obtain intervention. We can count on that.

Exactly.

The Lord knew what would happen and He prepared for it.

That is why I put quotations around the change the mind statement.

The Lord told Joseph no, but he asked again and gave the pages.

The Lord planned for it, but Joseph brought about what he was praying for.

I hope that makes better sense. I am not saying that we change the Lord's mind really. He knows us, our thoughts and our desires. he knows what we will choose to do. But we can still choose. Either we do things the Lord's way or not. But the Lord plans for what we will do.

LoveChrist wrote:The Lord knew what would happen and He prepared for it.

That is why I put quotations around the change the mind statement.

The Lord told Joseph no, but he asked again and gave the pages.

The Lord planned for it, but Joseph brought about what he was praying for.

I hope that makes better sense. I am not saying that we change the Lord's mind really. He knows us, our thoughts and our desires. he knows what we will choose to do. But we can still choose. Either we do things the Lord's way or not. But the Lord plans for what we will do.

Sounds alright.