LDS Freedom Forum

Hello everybody,

I talk with somebody about the Book of Mormon and this man told me : "If there is the Book of Mormon, this means the Bible is incomplete. So tell me why the Bible is incomplete !!!" And he quoted some scriptures in the Bible which say that we can know everything with the Bible and preach, teach, etc. (something like that).

For him, by Jesus, all is accomplished. He was the last Prophet. No revelation can be after Him, because He accomplished everything,etc. Modern revelation means the Bible is incomplete and offend the role of Jesus-Christ, etc. Bible is complete and it can't be otherwise.

So, what can I answer to this ?
Thanks for your help.
Frenkois.

Hello Frenkois.

First may I say Jesus was not a prophet. He is our Savior, which is a higher role then prophet. He taught many things when he came and did what a prophet would do in that respect. If you read the Bible you can see there are cycles of prophets who restore knowledge, followed by an apostasy. I believe starting with Adam, God has revealed all that was needed for our salavation and that Adam had the knowledge we have now. God gives us freedom to chose wheter we accept this knowledge or not. During Adam's time, the people strarted to drift away from what was originally taught and eventually lost most knowledge. After the resurection of Jesus, this same patern continued. Jesus restored all knowledge and the church followed his teachings for a few hundred years. Then another apostasy took place. Just as throughout history the teachings were gradually changed. When the Bible was compiled, it was not done by a prophet. It was done by a Roman Emperor. Thus many things, plain and precious were left out. If God used the power of compulsion to enforce his teachings, this would not happen. Joesph Smith was the prophet needed for our times to restore the lost knowledge.

It's true that many things that were restored can be found in the Bible still and we believe the Bible to be the word of God. One example of this is I Cornitains were Paul talks about the people of his time baptizing for their dead. He also talks about three kinds of reseructed beings, whose glory differs from the stars to the moon and the moon to the sun. All modern religions complety ignore theese teachings. Joesph Smith received revaltion from Gd that restored a fuller understanding of this and many other things.

I hope this helped. There are many on this forum much smarter than me. Keep asking questions and you will find the answers you need , if you are ready to acept them.

Thomas wrote:All modern religions complety ignore theese teachings. Joesph Smith received revaltion from Gd that restored a fuller understanding of this and many other things.

These two sentences can help me to explain him the gospel.
But he has difficulties to accept that the Bible is incomplete, and that we need modern revelation to learn more about the Gospel of Jesus-Christ...

What can I tell to help him to understand that ?

I don't know if 'incomplete' is the right word. I know it's his word, but from my understanding, it has been 'corrupted' which has led to the variable interpretations among the sects.

A while back, we had the go arounds with scitor on a thread that revolved around many topics, but mostly about grace/works/savlation. I recently did a little study about William Tyndale, whose translation was largely used in the KJV of the bible. He believed in Sola Fide (Justification by faith). I didn't know what 'sola fide' meant so I looked it up and found this list of scriptures from the bible that support or oppose the doctrine of sola fide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justificat ... _Scripture

I was surprised to see this list, and quickly understood why it was so confusing for many to appeal to the bible. (btw, Daniel Peterson contends that one cannot find the phrase 'grace alone' in the bible) So, I view the book of Mormon as a great clarifier. It is a companion text to the Bible. It is another witness of the Divinity of Jesus Christ, clarifies his mission and gospel, and warns our generation of the consequences of not repenting.

This FAIR WIKI article may help you:

http://www.fairwiki.org/Mormonism_and_t ... mpleteness

(-|

LukeAir2008 wrote:If Jesus was the last Prophet then why did Peter, James, John and Paul all continue to prophesy after Jesus death and resurrection. So that idea doesn't hold up does it?

We only have a tiny fraction in the Bible of what Jesus did and said. The Apostle John said that if we had everything that Jesus said there would be hundreds of volumes, even thousands.

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.(John 21:25)

Thank you for the scripture you quoted. I think this is a big and powerful verse to explain the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon.

Ezekeil chapter 37 the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph

The scripture he probably used is 2 Timothy 3:16, at least that's the one that people tended to use in the south during my mission.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
They said the verse meant that all scripture had been given. But of course, that's a ridiculous interpretation of that verse. There are a few other verses they use which are not as obviously misinterpreted but which are still easily debunked.

The bible isn't complete scripture according to itself. There are books mentioned in the bible which were used as scripture but which are not present in the bible. We can only logically say that if we had those scriptures then according to 2Tim3:6 they would be profitable for us. \
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canoni ... _the_Bible" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, know that the "bible" as we have it today wasn't compiled until much later than the churches set up by the apostles after Jesus' death. So whatever they had, it was different than we have.

Truly, the concept of the bible being the complete and only scripture is a profoundly UNbiblical doctrine. And for people holding so tenaciously to the bible it's a comical contradiction.

Revelation was written by John, under inspiration. It is scripture
And yes, all scripture is given by god, and non other
Of course somehow we know that John wrote Revelation "last"
and thefefore he must have penned what we call the Gospel of John, at an earlier date
Anbd we have to accept this because I mean Revelations end with "The end" and "let no man add to these words"...so it MUST be the last book written eh?

Of course he is sitting on a rock on an island in exile at the time, and would not even know who else wrote their testimonies, or what letters Paul was writing to church members in Ephesus, Galatia and so on

So 1600 years later King Henry V111's grandson wants to break off fully from teh catholics, and thanks to Guttenburg we can now print a bible, so they say lets create a collection of those records we have which we believe are scripture, call it the King James Bible

To be frank, an hour researching "what is the bible" on line can learn this and more, such as why was that book in the KJB from 1611 to 1827 and then removed and so on.

Would a person from another planet think it is presumpteous to assume the rules of the bible are in accordance with the order that a few scholars put together a few of the known scrolls/ scriptures in 1600

They put the letters (epistles) of Paul in there from Longest (Romans) to Shortest (Philemon) and what, 400 years later we think oh yeah, this is the order that god put the bible in and yeah, when it was inspoired to his prophets in 57AD and put into English in 1611 to be read in 2012, thats the order god wanted it to be in and thats all he said...because Revelation finishes with "The End" ?

Yeah, right

They couldnt even agree on what was on the scrolls (so they agreed to italicise those words they most agreed on where there was disagreeance) never mind which ones to include

And why 4 gospels when they had more? 4 seasons, 4 points on a compass and 4 elements/ earth wind fire water. 4, no more they said...even though they contradicted one another in places, and there's another one to add to the confusion pile


I mean Deuteronomy 4

Moses Exhorts Israel to Obedience
1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, Rev. 22.18, 19 that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


If someone wants to shut the door on revelation post the Apostles because of their interpretation of Timothy or Revelation, then they might as well listen to Moses in Deuteronomy and there goes the New Testament

JulesGP wrote:

linj2fly wrote:I don't know if 'incomplete' is the right word. I know it's his word, but from my understanding, it has been 'corrupted' which has led to the variable interpretations among the sects.

I would agree with this. Tanks linj2fly!

Yes, me too !

But it's hard to talk with people who are close minded and don't want to accept another explanation of the Gospel of Jesus-Christ.
But I keep trying to make them open mind.

P.S : if my english is not good (mistakes or anything else), tell me

Frenkois wrote:

JulesGP wrote:

linj2fly wrote:I don't know if 'incomplete' is the right word. I know it's his word, but from my understanding, it has been 'corrupted' which has led to the variable interpretations among the sects.

I would agree with this. Tanks linj2fly!

Yes, me too !

But it's hard to talk with people who are close minded and don't want to accept another explanation of the Gospel of Jesus-Christ.
But I keep trying to make them open mind.

P.S : if my english is not good (mistakes or anything else), tell me

your english is fine, better than mine here probably
and you are doing a great job too

people closed minded? No!!! (humour)
a few perspectives. christ said "to some it is to know the mysteries of god"
he also said "other sheep I have"..who i will speak to.
what a sad world where so many good people who truly love christ dont want to read what could potentially truly (we know it is but they don't) be HIS words? why on earth wouldnt they? i asked that every day on my mission. more words from christ. as much as in the gospels, and people didn't even want to consider it. how so sad
but then having said that i know as many closed-minded LDS who wont even read the apocraphr even though we believe it does contain inspired books. are we any different ourselves? i hear from so many "if it doesnt pertain to my eternal salvation i dont want to know about it" how ignorant is that eh? just consider all the stuff Darren brings here..how much of that do we really look into?
we say "oh if its important the prophet will tell me" and we cut ourselves off of the knowledge of the lord
a book or mormon, a book of mormon, we have a book of mormon, there is no need for additional scripture..No?
i think its human nature francois, and we LDS are not much different
love your questions too by the way. great having yo uhere, like a bit of fresh air for us. keep asking

AussieOi wrote:i think its human nature francois, and we LDS are not much different

Yes, it's true. Nobody's perfect...

Aussie said
we say "oh if its important the prophet will tell me" and we cut ourselves off of the knowledge of the lord
a book or mormon, a book of mormon, we have a book of mormon, there is no need for additional scripture..No?

So true...like the sealed portion of the plates (See Ether 3:21--chapter 5 which says what is in the sealed portion, as well as an invitation to greater knowledge, and how to make ourselves ready).

Yes.

Another question.
The man I talk with, is not LDS but Protestant and he is convinced that Jesus accomplished the Law and because of that, nothing can be added to the Gospel.
What can I answer him ?

Thanks for helping me.

Frenkois wrote:Yes.

Another question.
The man I talk with, is not LDS but Protestant and he is convinced that Jesus accomplished the Law and because of that, nothing can be added to the Gospel.
What can I answer him ?

Thanks for helping me.

2 issues- YES, Jesus did accomplish the law. as he himself said on this hang all the law and the prophets

however that does not mean nothing to be added to the gospel (meaning- good news)

theres many many scriptures that explain and verify that the lord came for a purpose and established his church to continue his work.

indeed it was established on the rock of revelation

of interest are 2 things. 1- when judas died/ suicide (which was it) a replacement was made. how did they choose that replacement?
what then of the letters of paul, the book of acts, revelation? what even of the need for the books of matthew, mark, luke and john

ponder the first few versus of Acts. Christ stayed with the apostles for 40 days and did what? (look and see)

if all was revealed, why did he need to stay with them?

then they went into the world

the acts is about revelation between man and the lord

we have much doctrine

indeed your friend quote timothy as all scripture does he not? misunderstanding what the context of all that is scripture.

why does he believe this while saying nothign post christ should be added to the gospel

so sad.

i'lllet others fill in the other blanks about continuing revelation and additioal scripture

consider also how the bible was put together. whats in, whats out, what was in but removed, by wohom and so on.

what, the message of the greatest man on earth is limited to what a few men breaking away from the catholic church in the 1600s decided he said?

of course not

christ's church ius BUILT on continuing revelation

Frenkois wrote:Yes.

Another question.
The man I talk with, is not LDS but Protestant and he is convinced that Jesus accomplished the Law and because of that, nothing can be added to the Gospel.
What can I answer him ?

Thanks for helping me.

I believe Jesus did restore all things pertaining to the gospel. It has been in man's hands since the resurection. Man will corrupt the gospel. Satan has been working for two thousand years to corrupt the teachings. Man will listened to Satan. If man was perfect this would not happen.

JulesGP wrote:Do some research on the Creed of Nicea, and that will give you one reason why the bible is incomplete.

You mean butchered!?

If you took all the writings that have been purged from Scripture and compiled it, it would almost completely change the message of the Bible to something like.......................................The Book of Mormon.

i-)

Yes, I agree. The Bible is incomplete. But, the Lord knows the end from the beginning and prepared the Book of Mormon, written to us in the latter days, to give us the things that are missing in the Bible and to warn us of what will be happening in our time by giving us the missing parts and explanations of what was still in the bible. The Lord said in Deut. and in Revelations that nothing can be added or taken away. He was not limiting Himself. If there are changes made, it is by Him, through His prophets whom He raises up and who speak for Him. People who say they do not need more scripture are telling the Lord to Shut Up. That does not go over well with Him. He said He would be with us until the end of world. As others, since the beginning, needed guidance from the Lord, He would send prophets to impart His word. Today is no different. We have living prophets now. In the New Testament He told the people in Jerusalem He had other sheep, not just them. They did not understand. When He appeared in the Americas He told the people that they were the Other Sheep He told the Jews about. But then, He told the people on this continent, others of the Lost Tribes He must go to, and they also will hear His voice and all of us will be one fold with one shepherd, and that they will write His doings among them. So, if we do not study the Book of Mormon and the Bible and the Revelations coming to us in our day, we will have a tough time reading and understanding 10 more scriptures that they will bring with them. The Bible is the Stick of Judah and the Book of Mormon is the Stick of Joseph, and theirs will be each of their own people and what happened to them. He has many more things to reveal to us, but unfortunately we are NOT READY FOR THEM. Even 2/3 rds. of the plates that were sealed will not be revealed until we are ready for more, after understanding what we already have.

LukeAir, did you mean to say 'incomplete' in your first sentence? Thanks for posting the JS quotes. I'd heard them for Madsen, but had never found a source. Thanks!

Somewhat off-topic, here's a little british humor on relics....(start at 20:58...ends at 22:15)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7kixg7E3Pk

Hugh B. Brown's great talk "Profile of a Prophet" does a wonderful job addressing this.

No scripture is complete. The D&C isn't even complete. This magnifies Christ, closed scripture is what denigrates him as a liar and one who now hates our Father as one who no longer cares about His children. Continuing revelation shows God still cares, shows that we are progressing and are ready for more, and also give further witnesses to the great plan of redemption. How could that be bad?

Tribunal wrote:

JulesGP wrote:Do some research on the Creed of Nicea, and that will give you one reason why the bible is incomplete.

You mean butchered!?

If you took all the writings that have been purged from Scripture and compiled it, it would almost completely change the message of the Bible to something like.......................................The Book of Mormon.

) EXACTLY

Tribunal wrote:If you took all the writings that have been purged from Scripture and compiled it, it would almost completely change the message of the Bible to something like.......................................The Book of Mormon.

) you made my day !!! So funny. I liked your sentence.