LDS Freedom Forum

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum, and I just have a quick question, which will settle a debate I'm having with some people.

Do you consider your ancestors, who have been baptized post-humously, as members of the church? Or do you see them as now having the option to either reject the baptism or accept it and join the church?

Kimball wrote:Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum, and I just have a quick question, which will settle a debate I'm having with some people.

Do you consider your ancestors, who have been baptized post-humously, as members of the church? Or do you see them as now having the option to either reject the baptism or accept it and join the church?

Welcome to the forum!

Baptism and ordinances done for anyone via proxy (i.e. in the Temple) are not binding upon them unless they accept that work which was done for them. We cannot take away a persons agency to choose. The proxy work simply extends the opportunity to the dead to accept those ordinances and covenants that God requires of us in this life to progress and gain exaltation.

all ordinances are automatic and binding upon acceptance, the justice will be recieved

sbsion wrote:all ordinances are automatic and binding upon acceptance, the justice will be recieved

our Heavenly Father will never take away our free agency when we are in the preexistence and he will not take it away when they are up there. Either way our Heavenly Father made a promise on DC 82:10 when you obtain a promise he will bless you. So in otherwords when you accept it after your work was done in proxy then you will have the blessings of eternal life with your wife and your love one.

The corollary to that question applies to us: "Are our temple ordinances binding?" What are the ordinances of the temple? Do we obtain salvation simply because we have them? The third article of faith exhorts us to be "obedient to the ordinances." Does that just mean to "do" or "take part in" the ordinances? Or is there actually something to be obeyed? I believe that not only must we obey our covenants with exactness (or else we will be in Satan's power! yikes!), but we must view the temple as a process rather than an event. We go once for ourselves, but we are allowed to go multiple times for ancestors. What do we learn in the temple as we watch the presentation over and over? We learn how Adam returned to the presence of God, and that is a process that we have to participate in ourselves. I don't think the endowment necessarily has any power to save except we participate in the process outlined therein.

That being said, I think the plan of salvation is necessarily the same on both sides of the veil. We often think that once men have died that they have angels rush to them to preach the gospel. I think this is a false notion. How do we obtain the administration of true messengers in our lives? By the process outlined in the temple. Unless we obtain the help of these true messengers, we cannot progress along the path (just as Adam could not progress until he obtained that help from God). How will our deceased ancestors gain that knowledge? From true messengers, organized by Christ to preach to the spirits in prison. How do the spirits in prison qualify for the administration of angels? In the exact same way that we qualify for that same blessing. "Acceptance" of a temple ordinances is much more than intellectual ascent. It is accepting the path that is taught there and walking it back into the presence of God.

If we want to be saved, there is a path to be walked, and the temple outlines that path. I believe that path is applicable to men and women on both sides of the veil.

chasetafer0707 wrote:The corollary to that question applies to us: "Are our temple ordinances binding?" What are the ordinances of the temple? Do we obtain salvation simply because we have them? The third article of faith exhorts us to be "obedient to the ordinances." Does that just mean to "do" or "take part in" the ordinances? Or is there actually something to be obeyed? I believe that not only must we obey our covenants with exactness (or else we will be in Satan's power! yikes!), but we must view the temple as a process rather than an event. We go once for ourselves, but we are allowed to go multiple times for ancestors. What do we learn in the temple as we watch the presentation over and over? We learn how Adam returned to the presence of God, and that is a process that we have to participate in ourselves. I don't think the endowment necessarily has any power to save except we participate in the process outlined therein.

That being said, I think the plan of salvation is necessarily the same on both sides of the veil. We often think that once men have died that they have angels rush to them to preach the gospel. I think this is a false notion. How do we obtain the administration of true messengers in our lives? By the process outlined in the temple. Unless we obtain the help of these true messengers, we cannot progress along the path (just as Adam could not progress until he obtained that help from God). How will our deceased ancestors gain that knowledge? From true messengers, organized by Christ to preach to the spirits in prison. How do the spirits in prison qualify for the administration of angels? In the exact same way that we qualify for that same blessing. "Acceptance" of a temple ordinances is much more than intellectual ascent. It is accepting the path that is taught there and walking it back into the presence of God.

If we want to be saved, there is a path to be walked, and the temple outlines that path. I believe that path is applicable to men and women on both sides of the veil.

Agreed. I taught HP group yesterday and told the brethren that "the same spirit that possesses your body now will possess it when you die. That means if you are not prepared to meet the Saviour now, why do you think of it as an automatic when you die?" And it is not just the acceptance of the ordinances that will get us there, we must have them made real and validated by the holy spirit of promise. So yes, the ordinances are valid, but whether they are binding or not depends on whether or not they have been ratified by Jesus Christ himself, and when that happens, you can be sure there will be no doubt about it that it happened.

every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..........no ordinance is binding UNTILL......and, all resurrected will accept baptism(age of acct.), hence, they will be binding, but not until..........likewise the tokens of the endowments

sbsion wrote:every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..........no ordinance is binding UNTILL......and, all resurrected will accept baptism(age of acct.), hence, they will be binding, but not until..........likewise the tokens of the endowments

So are you under the impression that the process of the endowment takes affect only after we die?

no. Half the endowment is already in affect, the rest of it is contingent on the "day" of cleansing, whether it be before OR after we die, ie 2tmp, who do you know who have been "endowed" in the temple, not your temple, that has this power?

sbsion wrote:no. Half the endowment is already in affect, the rest of it is contingent on the "day" of cleansing, whether it be before OR after we die, ie 2tmp, who do you know who have been "endowed" in the temple, not your temple, that has this power?

I don't understand what you mean by "your temple." Could you clarify? To answer your question, I think the endowment takes effect whenever we are prepared to receive the blessings and whenever God is ready to share them with us. I know of plenty of people who have not only been endowed in the temple (a mere form) but who actually had the experience of walking the path laid out in the temple (the real thing) back to God's presence. Their names are Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Alma, Paul, John, Emer, the Brother of Jared, Joseph Smith, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Adam, Abel, Seth, Noah, Lamech, Methuselah, Mechezidek, Enos, Mormon, Moroni, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, etc. Joseph's ministry was an exhortation for all men to walk up to these privileges. His experience in the sacred grove, more than anything else, was a testament that the heavens are still open to men, and if a 14 year old unlearned boy could enter into the rest of God, shouldn't we be able to try as well? Our day of cleansing or sanctification comes whenever we pay the price. The day of cleansing happens when we are personally cleansed. I think most of us have NOT participated in the first half of the endowment (the real thing). For those who have, they could tell you (were they permitted) who they found to be true messengers and what they were instructed to do in their first steps back to God. These things are meant to actually happen to us. If they don't in this life, they will in the next life only by participating in the process there that we were not willing or able to here (ie. if we don't commit to and apply the temple process in this life, we will have to figure out how to do it in the next). I don't think we are saved as a Church herd by being corralled into an organization. We are saved as we individually make our way carefully back to God. The church is just a tool by which we learn the process and help others along the way. He has shown us how to return to Him through the endowment, the scriptures, etc. These are all my opinions of course. You may believe whatever you think is true. Your idea about how to return to God may be more effective than mine, but I don't know of any other way than what I've described.

ithink wrote:I taught HP group yesterday and told the brethren that "the same spirit that possesses your body now will possess it when you die. That means if you are not prepared to meet the Saviour now, why do you think of it as an automatic when you die?" And it is not just the acceptance of the ordinances that will get us there, we must have them made real and validated by the holy spirit of promise. So yes, the ordinances are valid, but whether they are binding or not depends on whether or not they have been ratified by Jesus Christ himself, and when that happens, you can be sure there will be no doubt about it that it happened.

Uhgreed