LDS Freedom Forum

Those opposed to the Church have been quick to try to use D&C 87 to prove that Joseph Smith was a false prophet because of the "alleged" unfulfilled prophecies concerning certain aspects of the prophecy (See http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/A ... calSources).

This is what I think about it.

" 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations."

I believe that this is where the prophecy concerning the American Civil War ends and events more contemporary to us begin.

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

And it shall come to pass, after many days...

It is true that some freed slaves fought for the North against the South, but it can hardly be said that "slaves rose up against their masters" during the Civil War. Slavery comes in many different forms. I think it is plausible that some of the uprisings we are seeing around the world and especially here in the U.S. could be what verse 4 is talking about. It is just a matter of time that they will "marshal and discipline" themselves for war. That is the first group of people to be concerned about.

The second group is identified as "remnants", which in scripture language generally refers to remnants of the House of Israel. In the context of America, it means remnants of the Lehites, who are of the House of Israel. We have recently had an influx of people into our country that some consider to be these remnants. It is possible that some or a majority of them will take advantage of chaos created by the first group above to "vex the Gentiles".

I believe Jesus also issued a warning to us in our time concerning these events when he prophesied the following concerning the "remnants" in latter-day America, while visiting the Nephites.

"15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—
16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver." (3 Ne. 20:15-16)

The remainder of D&C 87 describes familiar events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ, and offers us the charge to "stand .. in holy places" as a defense for the wickedness that would accompany these times.

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

Just thought I would share.

Regards,
Vanhin

no

sbsion wrote:no

Thanks for the reply.

"No" what exactly?

Regards,
Vanhin

Oh you mean "no" as an answer to the title of my thread? If so, yes, that is the correct answer. D&C 87 is not false prophecy... If that's not what you meant I am interested in a little more clarity on what you mean.

Thanks,
Vanhin

I know I'm late to this thread, but I've been thinking about the this topic for a little while recently.

I wonder if the time won't come, after the American Federal and State governments have all but collapsed and anarchy begins, when the Native Americans will rise up like a "lion among lambs" and vex the panicking Americans. My understanding is that much of the population in South/Central America are of European descent (therefore, not Nephite/Lamanite progeny); conversely the Native Americans have been called the Lamanites from this dispensation's beginning. I can see the Native Americans, after having been shoved into cramped reservations for so many years, taking the oppurtunity to retake the land and re-establish themselves.

Matthew.B wrote:I know I'm late to this thread, but I've been thinking about the this topic for a little while recently.

I wonder if the time won't come, after the American Federal and State governments have all but collapsed and anarchy begins, when the Native Americans will rise up like a "lion among lambs" and vex the panicking Americans. My understanding is that much of the population in South/Central America are of European descent (therefore, not Nephite/Lamanite progeny); conversely the Native Americans have been called the Lamanites from this dispensation's beginning. I can see the Native Americans, after having been shoved into cramped reservations for so many years, taking the oppurtunity to retake the land and re-establish themselves.

After I studied the term "remnant" and how Christ used it throughout time, I came to a different conclusion of what that term means. I also found something by JFS who came to the same conclusion so it reinforced it in my mind.
IMO remnant is referring to the portion of the House of Israel that return to Christ. It encompasses all true saints throughout all the earth's existence and includes as Christ put it, Lehi's descendants whom Christ was speaking to at the temple.
I began my studies by searching LDS.org scriptures for the ward remnant and looked at each verse and the verses surrounding it to get the context of it.
I am a remnant of Joseph being of the tribe of Ephraim. I am also a remnant of Jacob being of the House of Israel.
I believe it is this larger group that Christ was talking about as he reiterated what Micah said. I have started a new thread outlining this.

It's not false prophesy. Joseph Smith was such an amazing man, especially considering that he did not finish the third grade! The more I learn about his prophesies, the more I am convinced that he was indeed a true prophet of God! For example, as I was pondering on the 12th chapter of Daniel concerning the times, time and one half (three and one half prophetic years, or 1260 years - each day of their 360 day year representing one year), and the 1290 days (1290 years) that the abomination of desolation would be set up, from that time, I kept searching the scriptures, and I turned to D&C 87 and read where "war would be poured out upon all nations beginning at this place" (South Carolina). I then realized that the abomination of desolation was consummated in South Carolina in 1861 (and I believe that this event was planned in 1860). Therefore, the church (or holy people - saints) was scattered, or driven into the wilderness (not taken from the earth since there were still translated beings who met here on earth with priesthood authority) in 570 AD, restored in 1830 AD (1260 years later-see the JST Revelation 12:5), and the abomination of desolation in South Carolina planned, or set up in 1860 AD, 1290 years from 570 AD, and this from someone who didn't finish grade three! No one will ever convince me that he was not a great prophet of the Lord!

Vanhin wrote:Oh you mean "no" as an answer to the title of my thread? If so, yes, that is the correct answer. D&C 87 is not false prophecy... If that's not what you meant I am interested in a little more clarity on what you mean.

Thanks,
Vanhin

You're going to fast for me??? I don't even get a chance to read it before you reveal the answer. X(